JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

Here's the article for anyone who's interested. It's from the June, 1950 issue of Mining World.

Thanks for posting it. I hadn't realized it was written by John Mitchell, who is as dependable a source as Mickey Mouse is, unfortunately.

 

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[Springfield]

Thanks for posting it. I hadn't realized it was written by John Mitchell, who is as dependable a source as Mickey Mouse is, unfortunately.

I'm glad you said that - I didn't have to.

 

[cactusjumper]

I'm glad you said that - I didn't have to.

Ditto!

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Thought I made it pretty clear that the forging of tools and hardware was separate from the process that made the iron ore into iron and steel. Guess I needed to flesh it out a little more. I should have stayed out of this topic as I don't seem to be up to snuff.

Take care,

Joe

Thought you might be interested in this picture:



Sioux Tepee Captured at Slim Buttes, with Keogh's Guidon and Capturing Officers.

American Horse was killed at this battle.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Thought I made it pretty clear that the forging of tools and hardware was separate from the process that made the iron ore into iron and steel. Guess I needed to flesh it out a little more. I should have stayed out of this topic as I don't seem to be up to snuff.

I disagree about your thought to stay out of this topic, either I misunderstood what you were saying or possibly it was not clear enough for me. I thought you had the idea that the missionaries forges, <where they likely did produce tools and hardware needed, but from imported iron stock>, had produced the mounds of slag found at Guevavi and Tumacacori. I have read studies done by professional archaeologists whom did not know that forges are not the same as smelters and don't produce slag, and did not recognize blasting bellows for that matter.

So I am now asking, are you taking the position that the slag found at the missions came from iron production? Thank you in advance, and for the pic - don't think I have that one. I did know that American Horse was killed at Slim Buttes (which is not that far from where we live in fact) and was reported as Crazy Horse by some newspapers of the day. Crazy Horse was at the fight, but could not rescue his friends as he arrived late. <One of the parallels a modern author pointed out whose name I can't recall offhand>

Take it easy buddy and I will ask next time if something is ambiguous before leaping. I hope you have a great evening,
Roy

Please do continue amigos.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

From "Missionary in Sonora: The Travel Reports Of Joseph Och, S.J", Father Och writes this on page 143:

"Not a single place in the numerous mountains is lacking in metals. Iron, loadstone, copper, and quicksilver are not worth the expense of extraction."

It would seem that iron was available.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Slag was mentioned as being found in multiple layers during the limited excavations discussed in this lecture.
As are the remains of large out buildings yet to be excavated and identified as to their purpose.
The various artifacts found at Los Santos Ángeles de Guevavi are described from 45 minutes into the vid, with the slag mentioned about 54 min in.
Desert Archeology Inc.'s ongoing contributions are also credited

 

[deducer]

Roy,

From "Missionary in Sonora: The Travel Reports Of Joseph Och, S.J", Father Och writes this on page 143:

"Not a single place in the numerous mountains is lacking in metals. Iron, loadstone, copper, and quicksilver are not worth the expense of extraction."

It would seem that iron was available.

Take care,

Joe

Not sure what you're trying to prove here. I wonder if you understand that Fr. Och is basically saying that iron (and hence steel) wasn't worth extracting.

 

[cactusjumper]

Not sure what you're trying to prove here. I wonder if you understand that Fr. Och is basically saying that iron (and hence steel) wasn't worth extracting.

deducer,

Not trying to prove anything, just trying to show that iron ore was found everywhere. It was used for many items needed by the missions. Those who were able to provide those pieces of hardware often sent them along to other missions. Read the history of Santa Barbara. (Franciscan) Processing the ore down to usable material was the first step. That would have created slag which was discarded. The Jesuits had knowledge which probably exceeded the Franciscans. (South America)

I understand the written word very well. Depending on your bias, you can read that statement to come down on either side of the debate.......like much of the "evidence" for Jesuit mining. Father Och was not "basically" saying the ore was not worth extracting, he may have been saying that iron was not as valuable as silver and gold, thus little effort was being made to mine it.

I argued the other side of this topic for years. You might try doing that as it will make you a little more rounded debater.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,
Not trying to prove anything, just trying to show that iron ore was found everywhere. It was used for many items needed by the missions. Those who were able to provide those pieces of hardware often sent them along to other missions. Read the history of Santa Barbara. (Franciscan) Processing the ore down to usable material was the first step. That would have created slag which was discarded. The Jesuits had knowledge which probably exceeded the Franciscans. (South America)

According to the NPS, the slag pits at Tumacacori were big; are you trying to say that all of them were the byproduct of processing iron ore? I have a difficult time believing that.

Also it doesn't make sense, considering the sophistication of the Jesuit trade system, for them to engage in mass extraction of and refining of iron when they could simply trade for tools they needed, or for iron they could simply forge into what they needed.

I understand the written word very well. Depending on your bias, you can read that statement to come down on either side of the debate.......like much of the "evidence" for Jesuit mining. Father Och was not "basically" saying the ore was not worth extracting, he may have been saying that iron was not as valuable as silver and gold, thus little effort was being made to mine it.

I don't think I am the one who is biased here. Seems to me that you are the one ignoring the questions put forth to you, not me (e.g., the bronze bell sprue, or the fact that there were no known lead mines in Az before the arrival of Americans).

Mike also did not say "slag pits" in general, he said slag pits indicative of silver/gold refining. I am not knowledgeable about things mining, but I am pretty sure it is fairly easy to identify slag that is the byproduct of processing silver/gold ore as opposed to iron ore?

Also I understand Fr. Och's statement in the context that he knew how to use quicksilver to amalgamate, so it's pretty obvious what he was looking for, or what he valued.

I argued the other side of this topic for years. You might try doing that as it will make you a little more rounded debater.

There is no "other side" for me. Evidence that the Jesuits engaged in mining and refining in the New World is pretty overwhelming, from admissions made by the Jesuit fathers themselves, to historical documents, research, and analysis, to archaeological excavations. Results and conclusions from all three disciplines point to it as a fact, pure and simple.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

"I don't think I am the one who is biased here. Seems to me that you are the one ignoring the questions put forth to you, not me (e.g., the bronze bell sprue, or the fact that there were no known lead mines in Az before the arrival of Americans)."

Don't know what "known lead mines in Az" has to do with the discussion, but you are also mistaken there. Google the Montezuma Lead Mine. (Prehistoric)

"Also I understand Fr. Och's statement in the context that he knew how to use quicksilver to amalgate, so it's pretty obvious what he was looking for, or what he valued."

Sorry, I don't know what "amalgate" means, so.............


Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Sorry, I don't know what "amalgate" means, so.............

You knew I meant "amalgamate."

 

[cactusjumper]

You knew I meant "amalgamate."

Of course I did but..........."Also I understand Fr. Och's statement in the context that he knew how to use quicksilver to amalgate, so it's pretty obvious what he was looking for, or what he valued."

I think you are writing what is obvious to you, but you are guessing at what Father Och knew. While he may have known what quicksilver (likely) was used for, it's not obvious that he personally valued it.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Of course I did but..........."Also I understand Fr. Och's statement in the context that he knew how to use quicksilver to amalgate, so it's pretty obvious what he was looking for, or what he valued."

I think you are writing what is obvious to you, but you are guessing at what Father Och knew. While he may have known what quicksilver (likely) was used for, it's not obvious that he personally valued it.

Joe

Now Joe,

You know I like you and all, buuuuut.......... one thing that is painfully obvious is that you can't honestly answer the questions I asked or the statements I made without stepping onto that slippery slope of implicating the Jesuits in something they were absolutely forbidden to do. Don't dodge the facts. If you have a LEGITIMATE possible alternative explanation for the following points, please state it:

1. Broken Bronze Bell casting with casting sprues still attached at Guevavi

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2. SILVER (not iron) Slag found at Guevavi

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3. Slag pits indicative of ore processing at Tumacacori

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4. Jesuits were forbidden to mine or have/display any knowledge of mining, so WHY was Father Och carrying a flask of mercury around with him on his journadas? Mercury serves no purpose other than amalgamating gold and silver from it's host matrix. WHY was he carrying mercury. WHY did he display his knowledge of mining practices by amalgamating the gold flecks in the Indians Dinner Plates? Why did he further display his knowledge of mining by saying that the cost of extraction would be more than the gold extracted? How did he know that Joe?

----------------------------------------- ---------------------------

Arizona State Bulletin of Mines (issues 21-40):

Tyndall District was the seat of some of the earliest mining of which there is any record on the Pacific Slope of the United States cited in the opening pages of this bulletin the Jesuit missionaries at Tumacacori having discovered and wrought the Salero Alto, Montosa, Wandering Jew, and other properties as far back as 1688.

ALTO MINES present an extensive development and have been very richly productive The ground included was among the early discoveries of the Jesuits who are said to have continued operations in their primitive and desultory way rather steadily for about 150 years Their facilities for development ore extraction and reduction were crude and ineffective Drill steel and blasting powder were unknown With rough iron bars they drilled to depths of several feet into the rocks large round holes several inches in diameter which were filled with lime plugged securely and water poured in The swelling lime rent the rocks and when thrown out of place they were broken further with hammers That process necessarily must have been slow and painful Ores were packed to the surface on the backs of men carrying rude rawhide buckets climbing out of shafts on rude ladders poles with notches cut into them. Ores were smelted in rude reverberatory furnaces that were made from adobe and after reduction the lead and silver were separated by a rude cupelation in the same furnace. In other regions where the ores carried gold and silver only the rock was milled with mercury in arrastras and the amalgam retorted crudely Processes so crude were slow and laborious They were possible only with a laboring population but little better than slaves with wants limited and contented with a bare subsistence The property is located in the Salero region about eight miles east from the Santa Cruz River at Tumacacori where are to be seen the ruins of the mission that was the home of the mining monks About 1875 Mark Lulley now of Nogales located a part of the ground under the name of the Goldtree Mine He sold it and there was taken out a great deal of high grade lead silver ore in the upper workings A dozen years ago the property was made over to the Alto Mining Company under which there was done a great deal of work and that company was succeeded by the Santa Cruz Smelter Mines & Transportation Company Now the ownership is a subject of a complex litigation There are about 10,000 feet of work several tunnels with crosscuts shafts drifts winzes etc The ores in the lower workings are copper bearing The geology of the Alto hill is complicated and a description would require too much space to serve the purposes of this bulletin.

The SALERO MINES About three miles south from the Alto are antiguas also wrought by the Jesuits long long ago and it was one of the first to which attention was turned after American occupation sixty years ago there clustering about it traditions of some of the tragedies of Apache hate and ferocity Until recent years it was in operation a steady producer of high grade lead and silver ores but the death of the chief owners following each other closely some years ago caused suspension of operations and the property stands idle The WANDERING JEW group of mines is north from the Alto on the next ridge In the principal ledge there is considerable development with a fine showing of lead silver ores manifesting the usual tendency to run into copper the copper content increasing steadily as depth is attained The Jew is in the same ledge as the Lee shaft in the Ruby Mine on the east side of the main ridge from which the Jew ridge is a spur the ledge being traced readily across the mountain down the other side The collar of the Lee shaft is lower in altitude than the deepest work in the Wandering Jew and at a depth of 400 feet the Ruby is distinctively a copper producer In the Wandering Jew the ore chutes are strong and

Read the above part in red highlight and think back to my little story about Guevavi being an ore processing center:

In other regions where the ores carried gold and silver only the rock was milled with mercury in arrastras and the amalgam retorted crudely

Think about how mercury from the arrastras could get into the ground water. Think about how crude retorts would spill toxic mercury fumes into the air surrounding the retorts. Any wonder why there was such a plague of sicknesses at Guevavi?

Mike

 

[deducer]

I think you are writing what is obvious to you, but you are guessing at what Father Och knew. While he may have known what quicksilver (likely) was used for, it's not obvious that he personally valued it.

Then why was he carrying around a flask of quicksilver if he did not "value" it?

One does not carry around a poisonous and expensive flask of quicksilver just for the fun of it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Then why was he carrying around a flask of quicksilver if he did not "value" it?

One does not carry around a poisonous and expensive flask of quicksilver just for the fun of it.

deducer,

Quicksilver has been around since ancient Egypt. It has been used for many, many purposes including medical applications. Just how expensive was quicksilver in Father Och's time?

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Quicksilver has been around since ancient Egypt. It has been used for many, many purposes including medical applications. Just how expensive was quicksilver in Father Och's time?

Take care,

Joe

Expensive enough for Fr. Segesser to have complained about it.

No record of any Jesuits using quicksilver for medical purposes.

Add to that, the penalty Fr. Och would certainly have suffered if he were caught by the Spanish authorities with anything of that sort on his person, and one gets the idea he wasn't carrying it around for fun.

I think Mike is waiting for your answers to his questions.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Medicinal Mercury at that time was called horn quicksilver or calomel. No record of Father Och ever having used it.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - I see that others have already posted some of what I had intended to, but would add a bit.

Firstly the slag had enough remaining silver it in to be worth re-processing, which would not be a normal thing to find in iron casting slag.

Second, the only method feasible by primitive tools available to the padres would have been the bloomery type, which does not make all that much slag The wagon loads full would have meant a large iron production going on, which there is no mention of, and on the other hand we have the padres requests for iron tools. If they were able to produce their own iron, and then process it into tools, there would have been no need for importing iron tools.

Third; We have covered the slag heaps found at Tumacacori and Guevavi, but no one has mentioned that slag is actually built right into the San Xavier del Bac mission! It is black and looks very like silver slag, which one can only conclude the Franciscans who built the current church at San Xavier simply used the piles of slag left by the previous occupants, whom would have been the Jesuits. It is hard to say the slag dates to after the padres when it is built right into the very church itself! (the slag is crushed into small piece, mixed right in the mortar, it gives the pretty contrast with the red) In case anyone thinks I am making this up, here is a direct quote:

The outside walls of the church were finished with a double coat of lime plaster. The lime was obtained by burning stone which can be found in the vicinity of the mission. Above the offset line, or on approximately the upper half of the walls, the plaster was floated smooth and left with out decoration, but on the lower half of the walls a peculiar form of decoration was used. Fragments of brick and black slag were crushed until the pieces were about the size of grains of corn. Before the plastered surface of the wall had hardened, the workmen went over it, slapping half a handful of these red and black pebbles into the soft plaster at intervals of about a foot in regular lines which ran vertically, diagonally, and in a horizontal direction. The black and red mixture makes an interesting decoration in the white lime plaster.

Source: Tumacacori National Monument By Frank Pinkley, Superintendent Southwestern National Monuments, US Park Service, pp2 2007, available online at:
Mission of San Jose de Tumacacori

So if this slag built right into the San Xavier church is not from silver smelting close by, one would be forced to wonder where in heck it came from? Did they haul it up from Sonora? Was it obtained from unknown and un-recorded Spanish miners whom were smelting close by, and somehow escaped notice in any record? OR is the obvious answer the right one? That being that the Franciscans used smelter slag from the silver smelting done by their predecessors the Jesuits, both for beauty and to make use of it and so dispose of it at the same time.

Here is another reference, from a reputable source and not a treasure writer, attesting to the mining and smelting at the missions at an early date:

The first civilized men to visit the Arizona region were the Spanish Jesuit missionaries who from Sonora in 1687 explored the valley of Santa Cruz River and considerable portions of the Gila and San Pedro valleys. Their reports of the fertile valleys and mineral wealth of this new country led to the establishment on the Santa Cruz of the missions of San Xavier del Bac Tumacacori Santiago, and San Cayetano, the town of Tubac, and farther north that of Tucson. The first mission in Arizona was established at Guevavi or Guebabi about 30 miles south of Tucson in 1687 and those of San Xavier and Tumacacori soon followed.

These missions have an important bearing on the mining history of the region in that their founders and keepers the Jesuit fathers were in a sense the pioneer miners of the country and conducted mining operations with a considerable force of men mostly impressed Indians in connection with their missionary work. That they must have operated on a considerable scale is indicated by the extent of the workings and the slag dumps still seen near the mission ruins. They named the old Salero and other mines in the Santa Rita region. The San Xavier mission 9 miles south of Tucson founded prior to 1694 and still standing, an object of visit to tourists is described as a large church with imposing architecture in which $40,000 in solid silver taken from the mines in the Santa Rita Mountains near by was used to adorn the altar.

US Geological Survey Bulletin 582, Mineral Deposits of the Santa Rita and Patagonia Mountains Arizona, Frank C. Schrader, James M. Hill, 1915, US Govt Printing Office, pp 21-22

Actually this long debate has led me to wonder why, our modern historians seem to be trying to erase and revise this portion of Arizona history? What is being gained or protected?

Please do continue amigos, oh and one other thing I found that smelting slag was also found at Tubac, but clearly from smelting copper, as there were copper minerals found with the slag, near the ruins known as "Casa del Osos" indicating that copper smelting was being done there in the colonial period; that this is most likely NOT done by the padres seems certain, however it may well be supporting evidence to the Molina documents which refer to metal mining near Tubac.

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, Joe, we have been pretty busy here of late trying to get the garden ready after problems with the old tiller set us back in tilling dates. May drop you a "newsy" type email later, not on this topic however some interesting tidbits on the Custer project you might find interesting.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

PS more attesting to the age of the slag heaps and furnaces, as first discovered by Americans, and by local people

In 1860 Professor W. Wrightson gave the following report on Tumacacori Mission to the mining company by which he was employed and it is in all probability the best description of the mission as it was at that time, which has come down in official record:


"The church is an adobe building plastered with cement and coped with burnt brick. The front is of the Moorish style, and had on the southeast corner a tower, the top of which was burnt brick. The roof of the church was flat and was covered with cement and tiles. The timbers have now fallen and decayed. The chancel was surmounted with a dome, which is still in good preservation. Adjacent to the church, in the form of a hollow square, were the residences of the priests, containing spacious and airy rooms, with every evidence of comfort and refinement, while surrounding these in the interior, was an arched colonnade, forming a shady walk around the whole inclosure. To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used; and further still to the east was the garden, including about five acres and surrounded by a cahone wall. The acequia passed through this, and here are the remains of a bathing place and washing vat. There are also fruit trees and vines still growing; while in the rear of the church is the campus santi, a burial ground surrounded by a strong adobe wall, well covered with cement, and even now the best inclosure in Arizona. To the south of the mission building, and fronting the church, was laid out a large plaza, which was surrounded by peon houses, thus forming a respectable village."

Arizona, the Grand Canyon State: A State Guide / By Best Books, Federal Writers' Project, pp 301

"Throughout these mountains [surrounding the Santa Cruz valley] are many shafts, tunnels, and dumps, some of them showing great age," testified cattleman Sabino Otero, one of the heirs to the oldest Spanish land grant in Arizona. "At Tumacacori there is a large slag dump, deposited there many years before my recollection, and in which large mesquite trees are growing, and have been since my earliest recollection." Otero continued. "I was informed by my uncle and also my father that ores were brought principally from the Salero mountain and the Huebavi and from surrounding camps to Tumacacori and were treated there. The Guevavi or Huevavi mines were situated about 3 miles North of the old Huevavi mission on a range of mountains between the Potrero Creek and the old mission, and just South of old Fort Mason."

<Landscapes of Fraud: MIssion Tumacacori, the Baca Float, and the Betrayal of the O'Odham, Thomas E. Sheridan, 2006 pp 159>

Wiki has a good article on ancient iron smelting, which we might note that the resulting slag does not contain silver as most iron ores do not contain much silver to start with, and the first source cited in the article (at bottom of page) might provide an in depth examination if so desired:
Ancient iron production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please do continue, just had forgot to add these earlier and thought they might be of interest as supporting evidence that the slag heaps are indeed old enough to date to the padres and not the Anglos whom came later.

Oroblanco