JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Joe, where is my coffee?? Yes, but he had to live under the same Concil rules as the Jesuits of supposedly no mining remember??

Incidentally,here is an interesting bit of information to file away could be useful. It will be downloaded in pdf. Open the file and scroll down to Sonora. Have fun.


Biofile of Building Artisans - National Park Service





Biofile of Building Artisans

who Worked on the Northern Spanish Borderlands
of New Spain and Early Mexico
Compiled by
Mardith Schuetz-Mille


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[deducer]

This is a debate that neither of us seem to be able to win. Perhaps we should both bow out here. On the other hand, a good deal of real history is being exchanged in the fray.

I see no need for you to bow out of the discussion, if you do that will mean one less educated and able defender of the Jesuits. And as you pointed out, the research has turned up history which is always a good thing. In fact it has given me some new info that I intend to act on, the next time I am in California and also in Arizona as well, which I am not going to share.

I think that debate, with the obligatory sourcing for whatever statements we make, is probably the best way for us to acquire information from one another. Not only that, but it provides further access to resource for us to look up. I am constantly adding to a list of books I need to acquire, simply by reviewing what is cited in this thread.

I don't think it's possible to win an internet debate, but one will certainly learn quite a bit. So I hope that we will all continue.

[Rojas, Carlos (1702-1773) Born in Mexico City. Missionary at Arizpe, Sonora, for thirty years. Was appointed visitador general in 1764, but his rounds were delayed by illness.] "Antigua California......" by Harry W. Crosby, page 409

I have read that Father Rojas was delayed by two years.

Do you happen to know how the author knew he was ill? Is it a fact recorded somewhere?

This also doesn't answer the question of why the Jesuit Provincals would elect someone who was known to have health problems and battling obesity at the time, unless he had a set of skills, or some qualities about him that made him very indispensable.

We also know from a letter he wrote to the Governor, that he spent extensive time in the Gila and Salt River area, near the end. What was it in that area that required his presence?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd mormiong Senor Oro, you hit it, no pay. Under Mexican Corp law all S.A.de C.V. companies have to have a comisario (Accountant - sheriff) He is to represent the share holders and to make sure that all transactions are legal and fulfilled, plus he also represents the Gov' and their taxes.

As such he is prohibited from receiving a salary since it could be considered as encroaching on conflict of Interest, but he does have the power to overrule the CEO by bringing any actions before the Shareholders and the Gov't.

He isn't actually a company accountant as such, but over sees the accountant's work also.

In other words, a basically thankless honor, course he can asses the company for any expenses in the pursuit of his work, from transportation, labor, skilled and unskilled, etc. on. One might say ir is full of unspecified perks, but no sheep.

comisario de la sociedad -=== -->

corporate trustee

supervisory director of the corporation

company inspector

Comisario (S.A. - Mexico) > Corporate Overseer


Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. so ya see I have to be nice to Joe if I ever want any coffee.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

[Do you happen to know how the author knew he was ill? Is it a fact recorded somewhere?

This also doesn't answer the question of why the Jesuit Provincals would elect someone who was known to have health problems and battling obesity at the time, unless he had a set of skills, or some qualities about him that made him very indispensable.

We also know from a letter he wrote to the Governor, that he spent extensive time in the Gila and Salt River area, near the end. What was it in that area that required his presence?]

I have seen the information that he could not fulfill his duties for the first two years of his appointment a number of times. I believe it's common knowledge among historians for that era.

When trying to ascertain the reasoning for what was or wasn't done in that era, I would need to be Carnac the Magnificent.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sailaway]

ORO addressed me with:
Sailaway - I think Geronimo really did mean Mexicans in his autobiography, his family was treacherously attacked by Mexican soldiers while the warriors were trading in a Mexican village, which killed most members of his immediate family and made him an implacable enemy to them for most of his life. Even after his last surrender, he was quoted as saying he would still go and fight the Mexicans if he could.
yes I know but I used Europeans as there were more than just Spanish Jesuits and wanted to distinguish that it was more than just Mexicans that he had a problem with.
Geronimo also said they hid the mines with rocks, bolder, gravel, dirt, trees, shrubs, and lots of cactus. I would look for an area where there is good cacti growing as it would be like making a garden with mulch. Problem I believe is that cacti dead or alive are protected by law in Arizona? A person commits theft of protected native plants if, without the expressed consent of the landowner, the person knowingly removes or destroys any protected native plants from private or state land," according to 3-932. "Theft of protected native plants with a value of: One thousand five hundred dollars or more is a class 4 felony. The term of imprisonment for a class four felony sentences ranges from one year to 3.75 years for first-time felony offenders, according to statute 13-702 of the criminal code.
Arizona Laws
So how do we get pictures of the artifacts without breaking the law?
There was only one mine sealed off by the Jesuits by explosives in the Superstitions that I know of. The rest was the work of the Indians who worked the mines, so they knew what the Jesuits thought was valuable.

 

[deducer]

There was only one mine sealed off by the Jesuits by explosives in the Superstitions that I know of.

Care to share your source for this information with us?

 

[sailaway]

`source Charter Member gollum
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...-mines-re-sister-micaela-molina-document.html
some claim this as a bogus document, but I know it has real facts in it. I have a simular but different map of the Tumacacori mines than the one on this site. The two copies that were made were by two different people and the one I have is much more detailed with many more things on it. and they all are correct with the lay of the land.

 

[deducer]

`source Charter Member gollum
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...-mines-re-sister-micaela-molina-document.html
some claim this as a bogus document, but I know it has real facts in it.

This is the only statement that I could find that has anything remotely relevant to what you are saying in it:

In a southwest direction from the mine are two rock outcroppings that were knocked down over the mine without more jarring than the placement of gunpowder in the cracks of the rocks, leaving the track obliterated forever.

The authenticity of the document itself, notwithstanding, and the fact that Tumacacori isn't in the Supes also notwithstanding, it still doesn't mention that the Jesuits themselves used "explosives." Even then, I would think that, that far out on the frontier, gunpowder would be a very scarce, precious resource, and even then, the use of it would draw unwelcome attention from far away.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

I think that debate, with the obligatory sourcing for whatever statements we make, is probably the best way for us to acquire information from one another. Not only that, but it provides further access to resource for us to look up. I am constantly adding to a list of books I need to acquire, simply by reviewing what is cited in this thread.


I don't think it's possible to win an internet debate, but one will certainly learn quite a bit. So I hope that we will all continue.

Your point about the books and references is a good one, perhaps it might be helpful for our readers if we were to list some of the better choices, sort of as a "recap".


Agreed on an internet debate, there is no real "winning" however it is possible to change the minds of each other by evidence and argument, which I <personally> would count as a "win" and of course some people take great pleasure in casting insults and count that as a 'win' if their target does not respond in kind, or not so richly in insults. However that is not a debate IMHO just a 'flame war'. However some folks are rather set in their positions and endless debate does no benefit for either party.


Sailaway wrote

So how do we get pictures of the artifacts without breaking the law?

If the vegetation is so thick that you cannot crawl in to get photos, perhaps it might be necessary to get a flexible probe type of camera, such as are used to examine the interiors of pipes and wells? Where there is a will, there is a way, just may require more ingenuity and 'engineering' to accomplish the task.


Sailaway also wrote

There was only one mine sealed off by the Jesuits by explosives in the Superstitions that I know of. The rest was the work of the Indians who worked the mines, so they knew what the Jesuits thought was valuable.

Thomas Terry includes a story of a second mine covered by use of gunpowder, blasting down a cliff in the Santa Rita mountains, a silver mine however not a gold mine. I have not found the name of this 'mystery' silver mine, other than it is NOT la Esmerelda which was not covered by a blasting operation and that it was not re-discovered by the Franciscans later. I do not have the book at my elbow however it is in the US Treasure Atlas vol 1, under Arizona, Pima county if memory serves. <May be listed under Santa Cruz county? Correction welcome> And unfortunately the Santa Rita mountains have many, many cliffs and many old mines as well to make it tough to locate.


Black powder for blasting was used in the Spanish frontier however as Deducer pointed out, would have been expensive, which is why the use of lime and water for cracking rock was used as a far less powerful and still effective substitute by the Jesuits. <See USGS publication on the mines of Santa Cruz county, and I think a USBM open file report on the mineral deposits of the Santa Rita mountains, links posted earlier in this thread for my statement on the use of lime and water to crack the rock> Which is not to say that black powder was impossible to obtain, or that it would never be used, as in an emergency to conceal a Church treasure quickly. I was not there at the time to say for sure.


Sailaway also wrote

source Charter Member gollum
Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document
some claim this as a bogus document, but I know it has real facts in it. I have a simular but different map of the Tumacacori mines than the one on this site. The two copies that were made were by two different people and the one I have is much more detailed with many more things on it. and they all are correct with the lay of the land.

That is interesting (similar map) and the only comment I would add is that with the problems visible in the Tumacacori document (date for example, is too soon as we know the mission was not founded then and was still basically a visita under the Jesuits until after they were expelled) it is wise to not take any of the info contained in it as correct; there could be coded information in it which is not obvious at a glance.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS one more thing on the black powder, most missionaries were quite educated men, and MAY have been able to produce their own blasting powders from materials obtained locally.

 

[deducer]

PS one more thing on the black powder, most missionaries were quite educated men, and MAY have been able to produce their own blasting powders from materials obtained locally.

I think that highly unlikely because Jesuits were forbidden from owning weapons of any sort.

 

[Oroblanco]

I think that highly unlikely because Jesuits were forbidden from owning weapons of any sort.

Father Segesser sent away for a shotgun for his pastime of hunting, and padres participated in the defense of their buildings during the Pima rebellion of 1751, though I do not know if they owned the weapons they used. Besides, powder for blasting is usually made with much more nitre so as to burn faster, not suitable for use in firearms as it could blow them up. There are records of Jesuits creating their own medicines, so dabbling in chemistry was not impossible, and as noted earlier, father Och carried around a vial of mercury which is in itself odd. We might also point to the Gunpowder Plot, which involved barrels of black powder, but that was England not the frontier. Anyway Segesser certainly ordered a shotgun and a mould for making pellets for it, which would be a firearm or weapon.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Friends,I don't know, but I would think with the Tubac Presidio only 3 miles away from Tumacacori, which had a full Garrison of soldiers armed with muskets, and also cannons, that black powder wouldn't be that scarce nor hard to come by. The mission's also had "black powder signal cannons," two of which are on display in the Tumacacori Mission Museum. The old Pete Kitchen Museum which use to be in Nogales, AZ., had quite a few signal cannons on display. A small 10lb keg of black powder, would do quite a bit of damage.Sincerely,Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

Good evening Friends,I don't know, but I would think with the Tubac Presidio only 3 miles away from Tumacacori, which had a full Garrison of soldiers armed with muskets, and also cannons, that black powder wouldn't be that scarce nor hard to come by. The mission's also had "black powder signal cannons," two of which are on display in the Tumacacori Mission Museum. The old Pete Kitchen Museum which use to be in Nogales, AZ., had quite a few signal cannons on display. A small 10lb keg of black powder, would do quite a bit of damage.Sincerely,Infosponge

Thank you for pointing that out amigo, it is good to see you posting again and I want to congratulate you on your 'recent' er, um shall we call it "encounter" as I am not sure whether you wish that to be public or not. I hope all is well with you folks, look forward to seeing you in the future.
Roy

 

[deducer]

This is all very interesting. I stand corrected.

 

[golden sluice]

Wow so much history, I visited that museum in nogales and I have picture of those cannons somewhere, I didn't know they had been used like that. Amazing stuff.

 

[releventchair]

The making of blackpowder would be less a eyebrow raiser than its uses timing.Simple formula especially if confined chickens, or maybe a cave with guano on site.. Carry what you need if leaving .The rest cache or use to "ferme la porte".
Dug outs and storage areas can be left for others in need of shelter and make folks way down the road of time wonder what they are. A long tended grape vine relieved of some cuttings perhaps and left with a benediction and soon the camouflaged fresh scars start to blend in as things dry and bleach at better worked to conceal spots.

 

[sailaway]

My map of Tumacacori has on it the coordinates of 111 degrees and 33 degrees with dots that if you add the dots in thier locations on the map, then show the dots as numbers these are EXACTLY where the Mina Virgon is, which means Tumacacori was not originally where it is today? The Priest were accompanied by Armed Army, so did they have black powder with them? I think so or they were carrying arms for clubs? Does a gun work without powder? They were in hostile territory where the Indians claimed the padres were encroaching on sacred ground. Did the Indians tell them to leave? yes. Were the Indians made to work the mines?, yes, back to why the Jesuits were forced out of new Spain. Plus it says the Indians were mining bat guano for? Was there coal in the area? yes. Was there sulfur in the area? yes, so all ingredients for black powder were available? yes. Who was in the area to notice a large Blasting event? Indians? Was there already blasting going on in the mines? So it would be just another day for the Indians who knew that the padres were mining. Was there a major Indian uprising in 1703? Were the Padres from Tubac and Tumacacori all killed and the sites abandoned and relocated to where they are today? Was Tubac originally in the area of the Sycamore river between Sedona and Perkinsville today? or were they other towns that were abandoned?

Quote from Kino:
On January 4, 1703, when these hostile Apaches had pushed in to San Ygnacio, a mission of the Pimeria, and carried off a drove of horses, Father Agustin de Campos, missionary of that district.
Captain Juan de Casaos, wrote, on January 28, these words:
God grant that we may succeed in catching these malevolent Apaches and give them a good chastising. To this end I shall attempt to secure some men from the West, and you, your Reverence, must attempt to secure those of the North, so that altogether they may accomplish something worth while. And although I was very busy with the building of the two churches of Nuestra Senora de los Remedies and Santiago de Cocospora, the plan being to finish and dedicate them both at the end of this year of 1703, I notified Captain Coro and the Pima and Sovaipuris braves that they should make an expedition to the country through which the hostile Apaches travel and come, the result being that through some good victories by our Pimas the hostile Apaches were greatly restrained, and now molest us somewhat less frequently in this Pimeria.
Captain Cristoval Granillo Salazar, wrote:
My dear Sir: I have just received your letter containing the sad news that the enemies had killed the Indian of Chinapa, and I am greatly grieved to see the inactivity of the soldiers of the presidio of this province, who neither go out on campaigns nor exert themselves at anything else, a cause sufficient to have led the enemies to hold a powerful gathering, of which Father Daniel Janusque wrote me yesterday. They are assembled in the Sierra de Tonivavi in great numbers, well armed and provided with shields, and it is presumed that they are planning to devastate some pueblo of this district. For this reason I was compelled by the urgent necessity to despatch some men as an escort, which may find difficult enough. Near here they killed Manuel de Urquiso; I am just about to bury him. They left him stark naked, scalped him, shot him four times with arrows, wounded him several times with a lance, and killed his horse. At the same time very near there, on the road to San Juan, these same enemies killed the son of Nicolas de la Crus.
March 12, 1703:
A squad of soldiers having gone to convoy a drove of cattle belonging to the captain of this presidio to Janos, on the return march, as they were coming from San Miguel de Bavispe, Sierra de Chiguicagui, two soldiers turned aside to get a young bull which they had left tired out in going; and while they were killing it the enemies sallied out upon them and killed them, their companions being unable to prevent it, because they were some distance behind and occupied with the pack train loaded with saltepetre, etc., while the two soldiers in question were without arms, since they left them on the horses, and the enemies took them. The dead are Cristoval de Leon and Domingo, stepsons of Francisco Pacho.

pack train loaded Saltepetre? one of the ingredients for gunpowder?

The Indians of Tepoca and Cucurpe, have spread the rumor that the Seris of Tepoca and the Pacheco Pimas of El Soba plan to attack the Spaniards of the nearby mines of Nuestra Senora de la Soledad, and, later, the pueblos of Cucurpe and Toape, because of the murders committed by the soldiers eight years ago when those disturbances took place. And the scatterers of such a lie do not consider that the Tepoca Seris are those who, with the soldiers, committed the murders among the Pimas. The lieutenant here has received the letter in regard to this matter, and in other places they have received other reports of this nonsense; but the lieutenant must already have been undeceived and have said to the Spanish miners that they are secure from the Cabotcas and the rest of the Pimas, but not so of the Tepocas and Egadeves,''
Admission to killing Apache eight years before? admission of mines?

In this month of March two letters are written to me in which, with the celestial favors which, thank God, we are accustomed to experience in these new conversions, the good conduct of these Pimas is declared. But one can not help regretting that by wrongly laying the blame for the evils of some, who are hostile, upon others, who are not, they hinder, as hitherto they have so grievously hindered, the much needed relief for our ills, which consists in the real punishment of the true enemies, thereby causing excessive expense and salaries amounting to more than twenty-two thousand pesos from the royal treasury of his Majesty in supporting war, as well as delaying the boon of the eternal salvation of so many souls, peoples, and natives, whom, perforce, they pretend to regard as malevolent evil doers, and robbers, and as barbarous and cruel homicides of so many Christians, which is true of some and not of the others, leaving them intact and not taking the trouble usually necessary to make an expedition against the Apaches.

A Declaration of WAR against the Apache? and here the Apache have been taught one of their greatest warriors was a bad man.

 

[Infosponge]

Howdy sailaway,

You posted "My map of Tumacacori has on it the coordinates of 111 degrees and 33 degrees." If you indeed have 111 degrees on your map, than it has to be a more modern map. Our maps today which use the "Greenwich prime meridian" which was established in 1851, show the Tumacacori area as 111 degrees longitude. But the copies of maps I have from the 1700's use the "Tenerife prime meridian," and show the Tumacacori, Tubac area as 252 degrees.



Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

My map of Tumacacori has on it the coordinates of 111 degrees and 33 degrees with dots that if you add the dots in thier locations on the map, then show the dots as numbers these are EXACTLY where the Mina Virgon is, which means Tumacacori was not originally where it is today? The Priest were accompanied by Armed Army, so did they have black powder with them? I think so or they were carrying arms for clubs? Does a gun work without powder? They were in hostile territory where the Indians claimed the padres were encroaching on sacred ground. Did the Indians tell them to leave? yes. Were the Indians made to work the mines?, yes, back to why the Jesuits were forced out of new Spain. Plus it says the Indians were mining bat guano for? Was there coal in the area? yes. Was there sulfur in the area? yes, so all ingredients for black powder were available? yes. Who was in the area to notice a large Blasting event? Indians? Was there already blasting going on in the mines? So it would be just another day for the Indians who knew that the padres were mining. Was there a major Indian uprising in 1703? Were the Padres from Tubac and Tumacacori all killed and the sites abandoned and relocated to where they are today? Was Tubac originally in the area of the Sycamore river between Sedona and Perkinsville today?

sailaway,

I believe it's pretty well known, and accepted, that Tumacacori is not in its original location. I'm at work right now, but if you would like I can provide some sources when I get home.

Good luck,

Joe