JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Long winded post - extra coffee alert

Hola amigos,
This reply got very long (again) so I must beg your indulgence, or feel free to skip ahead and I won't be offended. Thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper (Joe) you did not answer my question about the properties of the Indians. I had asked it because I think you already knew the answer, which is within this quote

It has been stated {Lasaepas Baja Col 167} that Galvez admired the Jesuit management but in a letter to Lasuen {Arch StaB MS i 22} he alludes to certain scandalous evils caused by the Jesuits and the fact that he restored the temporalities to the Franciscans only proves that he regarded the original system as less injurious to the country than the rascality of the comisionados In a proclamation of Nov 23 1768 { Id i 17 20} he expresses his surprise and disappointment at the state of affairs. After all the laws made and moneys granted he expected to find thriving settlements but finds instead mere haciendas de campo or farms with houses for padres soldiers and servants only The natives go naked, have been withdrawn from the seashore where they lived by fishmg and are forced to wander in the mountains living on roots and berries often obliged to work without recompense Hence they look with dislike upon agriculture and regard civilization as the greatest evil Missions with fertile lands need laborers while many rancherias are collected in sterile spots No Indian is permitted to own property The system has reduced the population to 7,149 souls.

<The Works of Bancroft, Vol 1, pp 487 footnote>


I put several sentences in bold, but one point I wish to especially emphasize is that the Indians were not allowed to own property! NO mines, except in rare instances as when the Jesuits were trying to lure runaway Indians to return to the missions, as we posted some time ago. And I must respectfully disagree about the Indians having mines, for even father Kino mentioned that the Pimas had silver mines of their own, which they were willing to mine silver to "buy" themselves a padre. However on the establishment of a Mission, ALL of the Indians property became property of the Jesuits, including the mines. In a very real sense, these early Missions were the model for Communism, with everything owned by the ruling class which in this case were a priestly Order.


The reasons for why the Jesuits were expelled from Spanish dominions we can never know, for the king of Spain never published them. In fact his <king Charles III> order only states,

Having accepted the opinion of the members of my Royal Council in Extraordinary, which met on the 29th of last January for consultation concerning past occurrences and concerning matters which persons of the highest character have reported to me; moved by very grave causes relative to the obligation under which I find myself placed of maintaining my people in subordination, tranquility, and justice, and other urgent, just, and necessary reasons, which I reserve in my royal mind; making use of the supreme economical authority, which the Almighty has placed in my hands for the protection of my vassals, and the respect of my crown; I have ordered that the Jesuits be expelled from all my dominions of Spain, the Indies, and Philippine Islands, and other adjacent regions, priests as well as coadjutors or lay-brothers, who may have made the first profession, and the novices, who may wish to follow them; and that all the properties of the Society in my dominions be taken;

The Jesuits had been implicated in recent political agitations, and this is PROBABLY the primary reason, and everything else was secondary. The actual mines themselves, owned by the Jesuits openly or illicitly, were hardly on the top of the Spanish list, however the Spanish royal authorities KNEW that the Jesuits had accumulated wealth and this is why such determined efforts were made to find the concealed treasures, which were almost without success. Not entirely without success however as one cache of GOLD dust was in fact found in a Jesuit mission in "poor" Baja California.


Baja California is a topic worth its own thread, for the main item of profit in the peninsula was PEARLS not mines, though some mines were operated, and later found to be hardly worth working. A padre with unlimited slave labor at his disposal however could operate such mines at a profit. Spanish authorities were puzzled that so much moneys had been donated, so many special favors in laws, taxes etc had been granted to the Jesuits in Baja and yet they found the people of Baja practically destitute. Yet even this is full of contradictions - for example the mission church in Loreto (Baja) is quite beautiful, and the interior remains impressive to this day:



Not everyone whom toured Baja on the departure of the Jesuits got the impression that it had been such a poverty-stricken wilderness either;

route Moreover it is certain that at this time Baja California was believed to be very rich in precious metals an opinion prevailing that the Jesuits had wilfully concealed the fact. We may therefore pay some attention to Galvez's activities in the peninsula. As regards its supposed wealth we may note a memorial by officials of the Real Caja of Guadalajara October 8 1765 which stated that there were two mines in Baja California and might be more if quicksilver for extracting ores could be had and if persons of expert mining knowledge might be sent there. The land was worth being developed. Gold mines were being discovered, pearls were found in many places the soil was fertile and there were great numbers of cattle. Yet the inhabitants were for the most part Indians. Eight years before in 1757 they had made the same suggestions to Viceroy Amarillas but got no reply. 69 On February 25 1766 Arriaga forwarded this memorial to the Council of the Indies 60 Croix's letters to his brother show that reports of this character were believed. In a letter of December 29 1768 he remarked that the Californias which had always passed for a sterile country would be able from 1769 on to maintain themselves without costing the king a sou. Judge what a profit the Jesuits must have had he said, and yet they had drawn a subsidy from the king for many years on the pretext of the land's sterility. 61 Again January 25 1769 he mentioned Galvez's work in the peninsula saying how pleased the king would be with that province because of its pearls, gold, and silver, a wealth which the Jesuits had in great part concealed 62

<The Founding of Spanish California, pp 85-86>

Even the pearl fishing done by the people for themselves, paid off for the Jesuits, quote

In the eighteenth century the Notre Dame de Loreto possessed a remarkable collection of Mexican pearls which had been presented from time to time by the fishermen During the regime of the Jesuits it was customary to devote the proceeds of the last day of the fishery to the decoration of the altar of that mission After the expulsion of this religious order in 1767 the mission was pillaged and the collection dissipated

< The book of the pearl: the history, art, science, and industry, By George Frederick Kunz, Charles Hugh Stevenson, pp 251>


I keep repeating this but the Jesuits OWNED MINES (plural) and in most cases assigned the ownership to their colleges, which are in turn owned by the Order. These mines produced SILVER and gold and copper, yet very little of this has ever been accounted for. The Jesuits were hardly the only Order of priests involved in mining, even some of the female Sisterhoods had a hand in it. This is why the Spanish royal decree forbidding religious Orders from mining does not specifically name the Jesuits, for nearly all were involved to some degree. These official orders from the crown had almost no effect.


There is evidence that the Jesuits were secretly negotiating with the English and Dutch to betray virtually the whole of Spanish America to them; <most to the Dutch, however a key island in South America off Chile was going to be betrayed to the English> this is reported by English authors of the time, and word of this almost certainly reached the Spanish crown. Whether these reports were true or not (it is possible that these stories were put into circulation to discredit the Jesuits) any Spanish monarch would have been alarmed to hear of it.


Springfield I am very jealous of you now!


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[deducer]

Roy, I did not find your post long-winded. I found it very informative.

 

[deducer]

Earlier in this thread we established the locations and extent of the King's presence on the far northern frontier. It wasn't ubiquitous, but it was significant and adequate for the purpose, IMO. However, based on the lack of 'proper proof', the expected protocol, it seems to me Mr. Ribaudo's speculation - that the Crown 'had it in' for the Jesuits and expelled them from North America, at least, on general principles, not hard evidence - may not be so farfetched. This doesn't mean that the brothers weren't guilty as sin of course, but it certainly doesn't prove a case against them either. The burden of proof has been implied but not confirmed.

In the context of the question of whether the Spanish government had any "smoking gun" evidence as far as Jesuits being involved in mining- I don't think there had to be any because that wasn't what governed the King's decision-making, only the degree to which he could protect against regicide, or being overthrown.

But suppose he was looking for evidence and he sent you overseas to investigate. What kind of evidence would you gather? At the time, AFAIK, there were two key methods of gathering evidence that could stand the test of court: eyewitnesses and incriminating written statements.

To acquire eyewitnesses to actual Jesuit Mining activity, you would have to strike to the extreme north via horseback over many days into hostile territory where settlements become far and few. Taking from the example of Fr. Sedelmayr, your journey would encompass 1500 miles, over the course of 2 1/2 months, from Mexico City into the Pimeria Alta, the extreme frontier of Spanish excursion. News of your arrival would have most likely traveled far ahead of you via the frontier grapevine, and by the time you arrived, any camouflage or deception would have long since been put into place.

And even then, suppose if you found willing eyewitnesses, the matter of persuading them to come back with you is an entirely another story, unless you had the ability or authority to imprison them.

Far more easier to find incriminating evidence via the written word, such as a letter from a mission to another, should you ever find a writer dumb enough to incriminate himself or too lazy to take precaution, and ignorant of first, Fr. Cabrero's ecclesiastical precepts where #17:

If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it.

and later, Fr. Arrivillaga's insistence that everyone follow this precept.

Considering the enormous quantity of letters that passed on the frontier, it is most likely that somewhere, someone slipped up on this precaution. There are indications that this has indeed been the case.

Fortunately, many of those letters are preserved to this day, so IMHO, this is the best method to reconstruct as accurate an history as possible, or to find answers that we can't find by any other means.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[It has been stated {Lasaepas Baja Col 167} that Galvez admired the Jesuit management but in a letter to Lasuen {Arch StaB MS i 22} he alludes to certain scandalous evils caused by the Jesuits and the fact that he restored the temporalities to the Franciscans only proves that he regarded the original system as less injurious to the country than the rascality of the comisionados In a proclamation of Nov 23 1768 { Id i 17 20} he expresses his surprise and disappointment at the state of affairs. After all the laws made and moneys granted he expected to find thriving settlements but finds instead mere haciendas de campo or farms with houses for padres soldiers and servants only The natives go naked, have been withdrawn from the seashore where they lived by fishmg and are forced to wander in the mountains living on roots and berriesoften obliged to work without recompense Hence they look with dislike upon agriculture and regard civilization as the greatest evil Missions with fertile lands need laborers while many rancherias are collected in sterile spots No Indian is permitted to own property The system has reduced the population to 7,149 souls.]
_______________________________________________________


The Indians had never "owned" land before the spaniards came, if that's what is meant by "property". After the Jesuits were removed from the equation, the natives were given rights to own land. Most, promptly, lost that ownership through being swindled out of legal ownership, and went back to their old life of hunting and gathering. Great periods of starvation were also included in that old way way of life.....something the Jesuits had tried to safeguard them from.

It's true that the Jesuits tried to end the natives old way of life, and prepare them for the life that was coming......along with Spanish rule. That rule was, pretty much, a given in that time. A,very few, tribes managed to survive under that rule, and move ahead. Most of the others marched into oblivion.....or nearly so.

Most, if not all, of the natives in Mexico did not have a problem with mining for gold and silver. They were doing it before the Spaniards ever set foot on the land. When times were good/plentiful at the missions they stayed on their plots of land. When times were lean they flocked to the mines, where they received payment for their labor. In addition to that pay, they were "allowed" to steal small amounts of gold or silver. They did not hoard these small "thefts" but used them to purchase things they wanted/needed.

All of the things mentioned above come from the accumulated knowledge of many book, but not limited to the following:

Wandering Peoples by Cynthia Radding; Missionaries Miners & Indians by Evelyn Hu-DeHart; Defiance and Deference.........by Susan Deeds; Unknown Mexico by Carl Lumholtz; Missionary In Sonora by Joseph Och, S.J.; Wonderful Power by Susan Martin; Juan Antonio Balthasar.....by Peter Masten Dunne; Mission of Sorrows....by John Kessell; The History of the Indies of New Spain by Fray Diego Duran; Many books on Father Kino....and the list goes on and on.

You may notice that many of my books are not by Jesuits. Our personal disagreements have no effect on my friendship and personal respect for you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

... To acquire eyewitnesses to actual Jesuit Mining activity, you would have to strike to the extreme north via horseback over many days into hostile territory where settlements become far and few. Taking from the example of Fr. Sedelmayr, your journey would encompass 1500 miles, over the course of 2 1/2 months, from Mexico City into the Pimeria Alta, the extreme frontier of Spanish excursion. News of your arrival would have most likely traveled far ahead of you via the frontier grapevine, and by the time you arrived, any camouflage or deception would have long since been put into place.

And even then, suppose if you found willing eyewitnesses, the matter of persuading them to come back with you is an entirely another story, unless you had the ability or authority to imprison them....

Tubac Presidio was established in the Santa Cruz valley ca 1752, 15 years prior to the expulsion order. I believe something like 200 soldiers were stationed there, under command of Spanish officers. Not as close, but certainly at hand, were 17th and 18th century presidios in Sonora, Chihuahua and Durango.

Are you implying that the Crown's army was complicit with the Jesuit's 'illegal mining' and ignored its existence? If not, then I fail to see how the mining could have been overlooked. As I recall, Oro accused the Spanish military of gross incompetence to explain away the conundrum. I for one can't swallow that explanation.

 

[deducer]

It's true that the Jesuits tried to end the natives old way of life, and prepare them for the life that was coming......along with Spanish rule. That rule was, pretty much, a given in that time. A,very few, tribes managed to survive under that rule, and move ahead. Most of the others marched into oblivion.....or nearly so.

Contrast with Father Och's statement as quoted in Classens's "Early History of the Southwest through the eyes of German-Speaking Jesuit Missionaries"

"Whoever has seen one Indian has seen them all. From the south to the north pole, they differ little in maxims and in manner of living." Hiding behind a Latin phrase, he (Och) characterizes them as little more than animals, commanding hardly any rationality..

This was an epidemic attitude on the part of the Jesuits, throughout the New World. It is fairly obvious their aims were to segregate, rather than inculcate. Their mistreatment of Indians continue to this day, as recent as 2011 when the SJ had to pay out $166m damage to Native Indians in the NW.

 

[cactusjumper]

Contrast with Father Och's statement as quoted in Classens's "Early History of the Southwest through the eyes of German-Speaking Jesuit Missionaries"



This was an epidemic attitude on the part of the Jesuits, throughout the New World. It is fairly obvious their aims were to segregate, rather than inculcate. Their mistreatment of Indians continue to this day, as recent as 2011 when the SJ had to pay out $166m damage to Native Indians in the NW.

deducer,

And your source for that statement of "fact"?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

H'mmm I need coffee !!! maybe even a cuppa strong OIRISH coffee.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

Tubac Presidio was established in the Santa Cruz valley ca 1752, 15 years prior to the expulsion order. I believe something like 200 soldiers were stationed there, under command of Spanish officers. Not as close, but certainly at hand, were 17th and 18th century presidios in Sonora, Chihuahua and Durango.

Are you implying that the Crown's army was complicit with the Jesuit's 'illegal mining' and ignored its existence? If not, then I fail to see how the mining could have been overlooked. As I recall, Oro accused the Spanish military of gross incompetence to explain away the conundrum. I for one can't swallow that explanation.

It is an interesting and complicated question, and one that I believe has a complicated answer. One one hand, you have Captain Manja whose complaints about the Jesuits suddenly resulted in him being arrested and imprisoned, which suggests what kind of relationship the Jesuits had with the government in Mexico City. On the other, you have Juan Bautista De Anza who was heavily involved in Silver Mines (especially the infamous "slab of silver" incident), suddenly being made a Jesuit Brother sometimes prior to Nov. 4, 1729 despite receiving no formal training or taking any vows. One has to wonder just what was it he did exactly to deserve such honors, that is, until one reads of his deep relationship with the Jesuits.

What is important here and relevant to your question of complicity is that De Anza rose to the rank of Captain in 1726 and succeeded Quirós at Fronteras, and became responsible for assigning soldiers to amongst others, the (wait for it) upper Santa Cruz River Valleys in the Pimería Alta (from the NPS database). It's not farfetched to imagine him assigning hand-picked soldiers for certain, sensitive tasks. So we have a very good friend of the Jesuits in a very critical position, as far as the "Crown's army" in the Pimeria Alta, is concerned.

I think a big part of the answer also lies in the fact that the further out you get on the frontier, the less overseeing there is, the more self-governance required and so I don't think it's too much to assume there was some degree of collusion going on between like-natured people, or mutual admirers such as the Basques and Jesuits. It was also very likely that the territory they were responsible for was simply way too large to govern effectively. We do know that even De Anza felt his "soldiers were spread far too thin." ("Portraits of Basques in the New World," edited by Richard W. Etulain, Jeronima Echeverria).

FYI, there were only 50 soldiers at Tubac Presidio, not 200.

Arizona State Parks: Tubac Presidio: Home

Addedum:

Some interesting facts:

• Once De Anza was in charge at Fronteras (after Tunon, a fervent anti-Jesuit was removed), his troops retaliated against Apache raiders immediately and "his soldiers campaigned far north into the mountains of Chiricahua and Gila River." This puts them into proximity of the Supes. Fr. Keller's entrada that was attacked in 1743 would have most certainly had De Anza's hand-picked soldiers along, who probably had an idea of what was going on (even though De Anza was killed in 1737).
• De Anza had two children, one of who was De Anza II, but both his children were baptized by none other than Carlos de Rojas, who is very high on my list of suspects, where Jesuit intrigue into mining is concerned.
* De Anza II would later be married at Arizpe in a ceremony held by Rojas, 25 years later.

 

[Springfield]

It is an interesting and complicated question, and one that I believe has a complicated answer. One one hand, you have Captain Manja whose complaints about the Jesuits suddenly resulted in him being arrested and imprisoned. On the other, you have Juan Bautista De Anza who was heavily involved in Silver Mines, suddenly being made a Jesuit Brother sometimes prior to Nov. 4, 1729 despite receiving no formal training or taking any vows. One has to wonder just what was it he did exactly to deserve such honors.

What is interesting is that he rose to the rank of Captain in 1726 and succeeded Quirós at Fronteras, and was responsible for assigning soldiers to amongst others, the (wait for it) upper Santa Cruz River Valleys in the Pimería Alta. (from the NPS database). It's not farfetched to imagine him assigning hand-picked soldiers to the right area.

I think a big part of the answer lies in the fact that the further out you get on the frontier, the less overseeing there is, the more self-governance required and so I don't think it's too much to assume there was some degree of collusion going on between like-natured people. It may be that enforcement was lax, or people simply didn't care, or more likely the territory they were responsible for was simply way too large to govern effectively.

FYI, there were only 50 soldiers at Tubac Presidio, not 200.

Arizona State Parks: Tubac Presidio: Home

That's a plausible argument, and it helps shore up my long held suspicion that Jesuit mining in North America was modest in scope, at best - contrary to the pictures painted in TH pulp publications. American readers want American action, and not just old mines but fabulous lost old mines. The real silver-mining action was (and still is) in Mexico.

Thanks for the troop count correction.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

As I recall, Oro accused the Spanish military of gross incompetence to explain away the conundrum. I for one can't swallow that explanation.

Perhaps it could be put in simpler terms - overmatched and undermanned. The Apaches, Seris, etc were much more warlike and mobile than most of the tribes the Spanish had faced in their early campaigns of conquest, and the Spanish frontier army was very small in comparison to the area it was supposed to "control". The garrisons often spent much of their time IN garrison, rather than out campaigning or even patrolling, and some of the forts became under a state of seige as happened at Terrenate which had to be abandoned after only five years. The soldados were armed mostly with lances, which were hardly superior to the bows and arrows and lances of their opponents. Even worse, the small garrison of fifty men was chronically understrength due to detachments, sickness and other absences.


In support of the contention that the Spanish army of the frontier was overmatched (and undermanned) we can look at the list of formerly inhabited places mentioned by father Nentvig, which were already abandoned by the time he was writing his essay (1763, or over a dozen years after the establishment of the garrison at Tubac) a loss of some 174 settlements! After 1767 when the Franciscans took over, up until the Americans obtained the area, the constant warfare and raiding by hostiles only served to continue the process of reducing the Spanish settlements, so that where southern Arizona had at one time over a dozen missions and visitas, only Tucson and Guevavi remained active.


Second point here but the fact that the missions had mines and were using Indians to work them was hardly worthy of note to the Spanish authorities. We know that the Jesuit college of Matape owned and operated mines, and that the Jesuits there even refused to allow a Bishop to see their books, yet these mines are not mentioned by any Spanish authority even though they must have known of them. At the expulsion, the Spanish authorities were after the accumulated wealth, not the mines specifically. In some cases mines were sold or leased out after the expulsion, as in Baja, and ended up in the hands of people whom had been "generous" to the Jesuits in the past.


I think we have a problem of perception as to what level of mining and how big or rich the mines were, and in some cases, are. The mines were not tiny one-man occasional type workings, nor were they on the level of the famous Comstock (American mine for those about to raise an issue that it was not Spanish) but somewhere in between. The workings found at the Salero and Old Padres for instance were fairly extensive, but little work was found at the Vekol. I can tell you that an old Spanish mine which looks very innocuous on the surface, can have hundreds of feet of underground workings.


As to exactly how much precious metals were being produced - it is pure conjecture for no records have turned up as far as I know. The amounts had to be large, if based on simple deduction, for example the massive silver altar and ornaments seen at San Xavier del Bac, or as we can extrapolate from various passages like Nentvig's mention of the padre whom offered $2500 in silver for some timbers and had no takers. That amount of silver today would be a sizable sum. At the other end of the pipeline, or intended pipeline, in Rome, we know of the gigantic silver statue of Loyola, which no longer exists but was impressive to all whom saw it. That there MUST be caches of silver and gold, and possibly lead and copper as well, is a certainty for we know that a number of mines were operated, and yet at most, a tiny fraction of what they must have produced has ever been accounted for (and some of that is hotly debated). The Salero alone had to have produced a number of TONS of silver, based on the ore as found by the first Anglos who rediscovered it and worked remaining ore bodies left showing (mostly silver bearing galena) and yet where is that silver?


Please do continue amigos.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

I think we have a problem of perception as to what level of mining and how big or rich the mines were, and in some cases, are. The mines were not tiny one-man occasional type workings, nor were they on the level of the famous Comstock (American mine for those about to raise an issue that it was not Spanish) but somewhere in between.

One method to roughly assess this may be to study the manifests of the Spanish treasure fleet system, of which there were two, the Tierra Firme and the New Spain sailing to the New World each year. Some years the two fleets left Spain as one large convoy and others they left separately. They followed the same course to the Caribbean, but while the Tierra Firme fleet proceeded to South America, the New Spain fleet went on to Mexico. After rejoining in Havana, the combined convoy sailed back to Spain (NPS database).The treasure fleet system reached it height between 1590 and 1600. During this period, about 16 million pesos' worth of precious metals came from the New World mines each year (NPS database again).

There is what appears to be an as, yet unsubstantiated estimate that for just the 16th century alone, $1.5 trillion of gold and silver were procured from the New World, by the Spanish Empire. The closest citation I can come up with is New World Encyclopedia, "Spanish Empire." (Last modified February 6, 2009.)

From what I've read, the Tierra Firme and the New Spain fleet were roughly the same size.

So who knows what amount the New Spain treasure fleet system transported from its inception in 1522 as a means to guard against piracy and other threats until it's cessation in 1778 when Spain declared free trade over all her empire; a total of 256 years.

So IMO it is reasonable to assume a pretty amount must have come out of New Spain, and by extension, the territory north of it.

And we're supposed to believe the overachieving Jesuits, they of the regimini militantis ecclesiae order, stood by and did nothing for the most part.. except dabble in a "very few mines"?

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

any ideals on how much was actually mined and proccesed,and how much was looted by treasure hunters? or was it all mined and processed,because they where to religious to loot?

 

[Springfield]

... So who knows what amount the New Spain treasure fleet system transported from its inception in 1522 as a means to guard against piracy and other threats until it's cessation in 1778 when Spain declared free trade over all her empire; a total of 256 years.

So IMO it is reasonable to assume a pretty amount must have come out of New Spain, and by extension, the territory north of it.

And we're supposed to believe the overachieving Jesuits, they of the regimini militantis ecclesiae order, stood by and did nothing for the most part.. except dabble in a "very few mines"?

Tons and tons of silver. You ought to see the silver altarpiece at the big cathedral in Seville. I'll post a photo of it later on this post when I get to my other computer. Until you attribute a significant amount of Spanish New World silver to the mines in North America, 'by extension', I suggest you acquaint yourself with the history of Spanish mining in Mexico prior to Mexican Independence. The logistics, regulations, experience and money required to operate a mine wasn't a spontaneous or trivial hurdle to cross. This is why nearly all the production came out of north central Mexican regions - the support was established, the security was much stronger, and most importantly, the mineral deposits were rich and plentiful. The deposits continue to pay to this day. The histories of the mega-silver mines in Mexico are quite well documented. North of today's border? Pretty slim pickings in the records. Of course, the Jesuits' hidden and secret mines aren't documented, but I'll maintain my position that they were modest.

There are a few good links on the first post of this thread:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-marks-signs/278600-who-owned-those-spanish-mines.html


They say this joint was built to show off all the booty brought back from the New World. This silver thing must be 30 feet tall. There's also a Treasure Room with some pretty spectacular pieces (below).

 

[deducer]

The histories of the mega-silver mines in Mexico are quite well documented. North of today's border? Pretty slim pickings in the records. Of course, the Jesuits' hidden and secret mines aren't documented, but I'll maintain my position that they were modest.

Thanks for the link and for the pictures. The link made for some quite interesting reading, esp. the issue of quicksilver.

Seville, as you know was the end destination of the Spanish treasure fleet system.

Mines north of the territory you described, of course paled in comparison to the size of the industry closer to Mexico City, but they were still sizable and plenty. In Arizona alone, there are 1,439 mines (per DMMR). Surely a respectable number of those had Spanish origins?

Just because mining was plentiful in central Mexico didn't mean the Spanish didn't strike north with the same tenacity and industriousness- as a matter of fact, from "Following the Royal Road: A Guide to the Historic Camino Real de Tierra Adentro"by Hal E. Jackson, we learn that the northward expansion into today's Arizona and New Mexico occurred at an astonishing rate. The capital of New Mexico was established in 1598, a mere 50 years after Mexico City became a thriving city-state in the mid 1550's.

 

[releventchair]

https://www.google.com/search?q=monstrance+pictures&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tkgvU9vpCcnTqAGQxYG4Bw&ved=0CCQQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643Apologies for poor source off info on what items were/are critical for a service, but point really is, the "wealth" ,the pretty and beautiful, is a huge part of the deal, a cathedral shows the beauty of heaven,shouldn,t a humble church as well?. Knock your eyes out screaming glory is fully acceptable to impress the natives or any visitors.A vow of poverty is for the individual,not the cause. Now if starting another service in a new mission, or sending someone elsewhere to perform a service certain things are required. Those certain things could be manufactured multiple places but were from precious metals, by quality artists, and were protected much. They were hidden when attacks occurred if possible.. A priest "needed" some things to hold a proper service. Lots of pretty frosting in a church would be a bonus,but one well spent.Remember,first impressions matter.
Eucharistic adoration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[cactusjumper]

It's truly amazing what you can find online......like (jstor)

The problem with that kind of research is that many people only enter key words in their search, find what they are looking for and never get the whole picture.

Someone doing that kind of research, exclusively, might not get the entire story of the relationship between many of the tribes and their Jesuit priests. They might never read of the tribes that begged for Jesuit priests to be sent to their villages on a permanent basis.

They might not read that one of the greatest fears for the Spaniards in charge of the expulsion was that many of the tribes might fight to keep their priests. It's all a really great story and like many such tales, it had two sides.

Most of the Shamans and many of the older tribe members fomented rebellion among the mission members. The wanted to return to the old ways, the old gods and their previous life styles. After the expulsion, most got their chance to do that. Few survived what was to come.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Someone doing that kind of research, exclusively, might not get the entire story of the relationship between many of the tribes and their Jesuit priests. They might never read of the tribes that begged for Jesuit priests to be sent to their villages on a permanent basis.

They might not read that one of the greatest fears for the Spaniards in charge of the expulsion was that many of the tribes might fight to keep their priests. It's all a really great story and like many such tales, it had two sides.

Most of the Shamans and many of the older tribe members fomented rebellion among the mission members. The wanted to return to the old ways, the old gods and their previous life styles. After the expulsion, most got their chance to do that. Few survived what was to come.

Once again, I refer you to the below documentation, which you have chose to completely ignore:

The Sonoran Missions and Indian Raids of the Eighteenth Century by Maria Soledad Arbelaez, from the Journal of the Southwest, Vol. 33, No. 3 (Autumn, 1991), pp. 366-386, states that:

An outstanding feature of these [missions] reports is the constant complaint raised by the Jesuits that the main reason for the Indian attacks was to pillage the mis- sions' property, and that the principal spoils of the Indian incursions were cattle and horses. The rest of the mission's property apparently remained untouched, or so it seems from the Jesuit records, which also suggest that, occasionally, total destruction occurred from these Indian raids. Despite such claims, however, total destruction was rarely the case since the Indians attacked symbols of domination:church buildings, crosses, and saints' images.

Appendix 3 states that 54 out of 81 Jesuit Missions in Mexico came under Indian attack, from tribes including the Seris, Pimas, Yaquis, and Apaches.

I find it hard to believe that tribes begged to have "priests sent to their villages on a permanent basis" since a good number of those priests came under attack at one time or another, and a few were killed. Some examples of priests who came under attack include: Fr. Sedelmayer, Fr. Gallardi, Fr. Gratzhofer, Fr. Saeta (killed), Fr. Carranco (killed), Fr. Tamaral (killed), Fr. Keller, Fr. Segesser, Fr. Nentvig, Fr. Xavier (killed) just to name a few.

Also it seems that once the Jesuits were expelled, their influence withered pretty quickly:

From Bancroft's History of Arizona Vol. 1:

‘‘The [Jesuit] missions were found by the Franciscans in a sad state. Some of the establishments had been plundered by the Apaches, and were again plundered, as at Suamca and Bac, during the first year of Franciscan occupation. In some cases, the comisarios had grossly neglected their duties. Everywhere the neophytes had been for a year free from all control, and had not been improved by their freedom. Not only had they relapsed to a great extent into their roving and improvident habits, but they had imbibed new ideas of independence, fostered largely by settlers and soldiers.

Also, the embellished statements you make above, once again, have no source. Please cite them and give specific examples, otherwise I am forced to treat them as nothing but pure speculations on your part.

HOWEVER, I will grant that you are right in exactly one instance, where a tribe did threaten to put up a fight to keep their priest, Fr. Campos:

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Someone doing that kind of research, exclusively, might not get the entire story of the relationship between many of the tribes and their Jesuit priests. They might never read of the tribes that begged for Jesuit priests to be sent to their villages on a permanent basis.

They might not read that one of the greatest fears for the Spaniards in charge of the expulsion was that many of the tribes might fight to keep their priests. It's all a really great story and like many such tales, it had two sides.

Most of the Shamans and many of the older tribe members fomented rebellion among the mission members. The wanted to return to the old ways, the old gods and their previous life styles. After the expulsion, most got their chance to do that. Few survived what was to come.

Ah yes, the poor padres slaving away to save souls, and no other purposes.

<La Compania church altar in Quito Ecuador, Jesuit mission, seven tons of gold! borrowed from http://www.adventure-trader.com/images/laCompania.jpg>

While there were instances where the Indians did request missionaries, as with the Pimas of Pimeria Alta asking father Kino how much silver it would cost from their mines to buy one, and the Yaquis likewise requested missionaries, however as Spock told his rival about his betrothed, it seems that having the padres was not the same as wishing to have them. I do not dispute that SOME of the Indians did love their padres, but this love was certainly not universal or the padres would not have been targeted in rebellions, nor would we have cases of Indians fleeing to the Spaniards to escape the brutal treatment of those beloved padres. Remember, punishments were corporal, whipping and the stocks, even lancing of prisoners for having trespassed in a melon patch, were among the complaints of the 1751 revolt.

Then there are the instances where the Indians either threatened violence, or actually fought, when the Jesuits were being expelled as mentioned many pages ago, we have to wonder how much of this was due to real love for their padres, and how much was due to the agitations of the Jesuits themselves?

Springfield I think we can agree to disagree on how large/extensive the Jesuit mining activities were, for your term of "modest" could fit them, when compared to some of the big bonanza mines of further south (and which were legally being mined by Spaniards) however the term for many people would make them think of little scratchings in the earth, no larger than prospect holes, which would be inaccurate. The production of charcoal and quicklime at Tumacacori for instance seems to indicate the operations were considerable for the time. The technology used was rather low-tech, such as cracking rock with lime and water, which would not be as quick or efficient as blasting. To me, a treasure such as the massive silver on display at Bac would be a considerable fortune, but to others it might not even be worth the effort to haul it out. Likewise, a mine that I would not hesitate to claim and re-open, might not be worth a second look to some people. As you said, many Americans want things to be mega-billions or they are not interested.

Please do continue, however I do not like the use of the term "looting" for it gets tossed around pretty freely these days.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

While there were instances where the Indians did request missionaries, as with the Pimas of Pimeria Alta asking father Kino how much silver it would cost from their mines to buy one, and the Yaquis likewise requested missionaries, however as Spock told his rival about his betrothed, it seems that having the padres was not the same as wishing to have them. I do not dispute that SOME of the Indians did love their padres, but this love was certainly not universal or the padres would not have been targeted in rebellions, nor would we have cases of Indians fleeing to the Spaniards to escape the brutal treatment of those beloved padres. Remember, punishments were corporal, whipping and the stocks, even lancing of prisoners for having trespassed in a melon patch, were among the complaints of the 1751 revolt.

Then there are the instances where the Indians either threatened violence, or actually fought, when the Jesuits were being expelled as mentioned many pages ago, we have to wonder how much of this was due to real love for their padres, and how much was due to the agitations of the Jesuits themselves?

While I am sure that some Indians were fond of the Padres that came to stay with or visit with them, I am of the persuasion that religion had nothing to do with it. They were fond of the padres as you would be fond of a person you considered a good friend.

A new book has come out that has printed Fr. Segesser's very revealing letters and correspondences with his family which gives us a very good, in-depth, look at the everyday life of the Jesuits in the Southwest, amongst the Indians:

A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence of Philipp Segesser: Raymond H. Thompson, Werner S. Zimmt, Robert E. Dahlquist: 9780826354242: Amazon.com: Books

I direct your attention to two phrases which are very telling. The first is quite damaging to the illusion that the Indians actively sought to come to mission for worship or to attend mass, as some would have us believe:



This, again, is in Segesser's own words, in which he freely admits that if there is no food, the Indians won't come.

Here is another telling statement, recording what Segesser really thought of Indians in general: