JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[UncleMatt]

I have been reading the exchange here with great interest, and always learn from those posting. I would like to ask where any of you would go to find research material that would definitively resolve this one way or the other for you personally. If you could have access to any currently unavailable archive, library, database, or private collection, which ones would those be? I ask because I think it might be advantageous to start applying for access now, so that it may be granted at some future point in time. Perhaps this is naïve, and I lack understanding of the various contexts involved, but I am still curious what your answers might be. I would love to do research full time on this, but I am a sad gringo who can't even speak or write Spanish.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Springfield]

Please forgive the length of this post and ignore if necessary. For those interested in the procedures for 'researching the Spanish Archives', you may find the following quite interesting. You can't just waltz in the front door and ask to see a copy of 'The King's Code.'



A Review of the General Archive of the Indies (Archivo General de Indias) (Seville, Spain).
My dissertation, entitled Indian Harvest: The Rise of the Indigenous Slave Trade and Diaspora from Española to the Circum-Caribbean, 1492-1560, examines the growth and height of the Circum-Caribbean indigenous slave trade. My project seeks to capture the scope of this slave trade and resultant Indian diaspora for the first time. In tracing the diaspora I also try to reveal the hidden consequences of the slave trade, including the indigenous experience of movement and displacement across the Caribbean. While I look at archaeological and anthropological evidence, the bulk of the dissertation hinges on the use and analysis of sixteenth-century Spanish documents. These sources range from court cases and royal orders to personal letters and general correspondence between the Caribbean colonies and the royal court in Spain. Nearly all of these documents are housed in the Archivo General de Indias (AGI). The AGI’s collection contains almost all of the documentation dealing with Spain’s expansion and overseas colonies from the fifteenth century to independence. In researching my project I have spent a considerable amount of time in the AGI and most recently worked there from October 2011 until April 2012.

The AGI is located in the absolute center of Seville between the city’s famous cathedral and the Real Alcázar, so it is very easy to locate. The archive is comprised of two distinct buildings. The first is the former Merchant’s Exchange, or Casa Lonja de Mercaderes, and is the one that actually houses the documents and that you can visit as a tourist. Its address is Avenida de la Constitución, 3. However as a researcher you will be more interested in its neighbor, where historians actually work. This portion of the AGI is located across the street from the larger tourist attraction on the Calle Santo Tomás and is known as the Edificio de la Cilla.

The AGI’s room for investigation is open Monday through Friday from 8 a.m. until 3 p.m. from mid-September until mid-June. From June until September the archive closes slightly earlier at 2:30 in the afternoon. The archive does open promptly between 8 and 8:15 in the morning. However, the closing times are a bit deceptive. While the archive is technically open until 3 p.m. (or 2:30) the archivists collect your documents or legajos anywhere from fifteen to thirty minutes prior to closing the archive. So be prepared to end your daily research by 2:45 or 2:15. The archive is closed on all major religious, national, and local holidays. You can access a calendar of Spanish holidays online or simply ask the employees of the archive. For up-to-date information see the archive’s website atPortada del Archivo General de Indias.

Because the hours of the archive are so limited, few researchers take longer than a half-hour break. This informal coffee break, better known as “once,” usually occurs around 11 a.m. The archive does not close during “once,” but at least half of the archive’s patrons do go to coffee at this time. It is the perfect opportunity to meet your fellow researchers and to make scholarly contacts with academics from around the world. I made great friends with some of the people I met and socialized with during “once,” later meeting them for lunch or tapas and even traveling with some for weekend trips across Andalucía. Most researchers sojourn to one specific restaurant called Rayuelo Café. It is located on the street behind the Edificio de la Cilla near the entrance to the Real Alcázar.

On your first visit to the AGI you will need to register. Although the AGI opens at or near to 8 a.m., the office of registration (which is also where you make copy and digitalization requests) does not open until 9 a.m. For registration make sure to bring your passport and a letter of introduction from your university/advisor, and also be prepared to discuss your research. Upon entering the building you first must go through a metal detector and your bag will be x-rayed. You will then have to turn in your bag. The only things that you can carry with you into the archive are a laptop computer or note cards and pencil for transcribing. You cannot have a camera, pens, regular paper, notebooks, cell phones, or any other items. All of these things will be stored in lockers. After turning in your belongings you will be given a number. When you are done researching, or are taking a break and need access to your purse or phone, you will turn in the number at the front desk and the attendant will give you back your things. This same procedure will occur every day that you visit the AGI.

Next you will tell the individual at the front desk that you are a first time investigator/researcher. They will call the office upstairs and have you wait until the archivist is ready to speak with you. Once they are prepared to interview you, you will go up one flight of stairs to the office of Reprografía. There you will have a short interview with one of the archivists discussing what sort of documents you will be reading and the topics you are interested in. If you have a letter of introduction from your university they will also look it over, but it is not mandatory for entry to the archive.

After your interview (which is not as intimidating as it sounds) they will take a somewhat dinky photograph of you and make an ID card for you with the photo and an identification number. You will need this number and card to enter the investigator’s room each day and to log into the archive’s system to request documents. It will likely take one to two days to receive this card, but you will be given a temporary card to conduct research immediately if you choose. This card will also give you access to all of Spain’s other national archives, for example the Archivo de Simancas and the Archivo Histórico Nacional in Madrid.

At this point you will be ready to go upstairs to the research/reading room! In the reading room itself you will sign in with your number and name. You will then be assigned a table/desk. Each station or table has a number. You can request a certain table when signing in, so figure out the room layout and find a table that best suits you, though you may have to arrive early to get the best desks (i.e. end tables that allow you more space for your documents).

It is best to come to the archive with a list of documents that you wish to examine so that you do not waste too much time in the AGI searching their holdings. This can be done easily at the websitePortal de Archivos Españoles, which allows you to search the catalogues of all of Spain’s national archives. Here you can also see what documents are already digitalized and which you must look at in the archive itself. If you have your list ready, simply locate the document you wish to order by heading and then number, i.e. Patronato 1 or Santo Domingo 203. Then right click your mouse over the heading and select “Solicitar.” Once you have successfully ordered the documents you will see a message on your computer screen saying that the solicitation was processed correctly. You can order up to two document sets or legajos at a time.

Once you have ordered your document sets, allow anywhere from ten minutes to a half hour for them to be delivered. During this time you can look at the digitalized documents on your computer. It is important to note that quite a bit of the AGI’s documents have been digitalized, and once a document is online you cannot handle the physical legajo. Luckily, the digital sources are quite clear and most are better catalogued so searching through the digital collections is very efficient. You can also access any of the online/digital sources from anywhere in the world. Additionally, you can manipulate the digital images, for example zooming in or flipping the pages. I still prefer to read the original documents, but the digital ones are a wonderful resource to have.

When an archivist enters the reading room with a cart full of legajos, then you can go to the front desk and ask for the legajo you ordered. You can only have one legajo at a time at your desk; the other will remain at the front desk until you return the first legajo. For an image of some legajos see Figure 3. You can repeat this process (which also works for ordering microfilm in addition to the physical documents) as many times in a day as you wish. Some legajos will take days to go through and some can be finished in a few minutes. Because you cannot photograph the documents, you will likely need to both take notes/transcribe documents and request digitalization of legajos. My advice is to transcribe as much as you can, as the photocopies/digital images are quite expensive, especially for microfilm. It can also take months for you to receive your copies, at least of the digital images.
If you do plan on making copies, you will need to have two forms with you as you read the documents. Both forms are available at the side desk where all the archivists sit. The first is known as a “Tira” and each one has a number. Basically your first Tira will be number 1, second 2, and so on. Whenever you find a page or section in a legajo that you want a copy of simply mark the page with a Tira. In addition to the number on the Tira you will also include your name, archive ID number, the name of the legajo (for example Santo Domingo 74), the name of the document (like Letter from Menéndez de Avilés), the date of the document, whether you want photocopies or microfilm, and how many pages of the document/legajo you want copied. The Tira will remain in the legajo marking the page. The second form is the one you will turn in to the reproductions office. On this you will list all the Tiras/orders that you want copied with all of the above information included again. I would recommend not going over 5 legajos or 300 pages on any single order; it will just take them longer to process. Keep the second form with you until you are ready to turn it in for reproductions. This form lists the various prices for copies.

By far the cheapest format to receive copies is as digital images burned on a CD. Each page costs 10 cents and the CD itself is 4.70 euros. However, you can also get hardcopies (14 cents per page) or microfilm (23 cents per page). If you order your copies right before leaving, you will have to pay for shipping to the U.S. Once you are ready to submit your order, go to the reproductions office and they will tally up your total for copies. You will then be given a bank form. Next go to the nearby bank (CajaSol) and pay the bill. For whatever reason the archive itself will not handle money. The bank will give you a receipt, which you will then turn into the reproductions office. They will attach the receipt to your order.

When you do get your copies, whether in two weeks or two months, you will be very pleasantly surprised—at least I was. Not only are the digital images of great quality, but each document is its own separate pdf. This makes organizing your copies much more efficient. You will also receive copies of all your Tiras and the order form.

The overall ambience of the AGI is professional and fairly formal. Many of the researchers dress in business casual (especially the Spaniards), while others will wear more relaxed attire. I prefer to dress somewhat more formally when conducting research in the AGI, but it is a personal choice. Be careful when wearing jackets or sweaters because you cannot take them off in the reading room and place them on the back of your chair or next to you. You will have to leave any jackets downstairs on the coat rack or with your bag. This brings me to one of the more uncomfortable elements of the AGI. There is a security guard patrolling the reading room constantly. He watches for anyone trying to take pictures, talking loudly, or mishandling the documents (for example, leaning on a document or lifting a page into the air). If someone is caught doing any of these things, an archivist will immediately chastise the offender, sometimes quite loudly so that everyone in the archive notices. This raises another issue. While some of the staff is very friendly, others are aloof and can even be hostile at times. You will figure out quickly who is who. Though this environment can seem quite cold, it does foster an excellent working space. There are never problems of noise to distract you, and the documents are kept in good condition. There is also no Internet access, so yet another possible distraction removed. And while some of the staff can be unfriendly, this can actually build camaraderie among the researchers.

Not to be forgotten is the fact that the AGI is in Seville, Spain. Seville is truly one of my favorite cities in Europe, if not the world. It is amazingly beautiful, houses dozens of important historical sites, offers great shopping, has a variety of diverse neighborhoods (all within walking distance of the archive), and has some of the best food and drinks in Andalucía. Basically you will find plenty to do after the archive closes at 2:30/3 p.m.! Most researchers rent apartments for their stay in Seville. If price is a concern, I recommend looking in the neighborhoods of Triana or Alameda Hercules, where apartments are a bit cheaper than right in the center of town. These neighborhoods are at most a 25-minute walk from the archive and are bit less touristy.

Seville is also a good base to explore the rest of Andalucía on day or weekend trips. For example, you can easily get to Cordoba, Granada, Tarifa, Ronda, or Jerez de la Frontera (to name a few) by bus, train, or car from Seville. Through my months of research at the AGI, I have been able to see most of Andalucía and explore a lot of the rest of Spain as well. The fact that Seville is such a great city is very important, since the holdings of the AGI are tremendous. I have conducted research there three times now, with each trip lasting several months, if not more, and have yet to scratch the surface of what the archive houses. I look forward to many more summers or years spent working in the AGI and having tapas and wine by the gorgeous Guadalquivir River.

Erin W. Stone
Department of History
Vanderbilt University
[email protected]

 

[deducer]

deducer,

You are overanxious to prove me wrong.

"My copy of the Seegesser letters is not the new one. This one was published in 2012 by Albrecht Classen."

Being so hasty makes for mistakes. Just slow down a little. I will make enough mistakes on my own.

Joe Ribaudo

Sorry, but it's pretty obvious the book you were referring to in the below post is not the same book I'm referring to.

deducer,

I have the book, do you?

http://aclassen.faculty.arizona.edu/sites/aclassen.faculty.arizona.edu/files/Engl.trans__2.pdf

It happens.

 

[deducer]

I have been reading the exchange here with great interest, and always learn from those posting. I would like to ask where any of you would go to find research material that would definitively resolve this one way or the other for you personally. If you could have access to any currently unavailable archive, library, database, or private collection, which ones would those be? I ask because I think it might be advantageous to start applying for access now, so that it may be granted at some future point in time. Perhaps this is naïve, and I lack understanding of the various contexts involved, but I am still curious what your answers might be. I would love to do research full time on this, but I am a sad gringo who can't even speak or write Spanish.

I would love to know this too!

I have identified a few archives of interest, but will continue to investigate. I have a particular interest in the National Archive in Mexico, the Archivo General de la Nación.

 

[UncleMatt]

Another question would be if you would be receptive, and open about, where the data in your research leads you? For example, what if you came across something that definitely proved your pet theory to be wrong. Would you show it to the rest of us?

 

[sailaway]

I agree with Springfield that the archives of the Indies are the best place for information. I have personally been there as a young man. There are many friends and family that I miss there. Seville has a special place in my heart and mind. If any one wants to prove the treasures are real, the room of 825 feet by 825 feet should put the question to rest. I am working on filing the paperwork to prove this subject.

 

[UncleMatt]

can you expound further on your project sailaway?

 

[sailaway]

Here is the eye carved by Father Kino.
You may be able to spot the rattle snake head as the Indians saw it.
Have you read my members hunt?
Look at Survey of the Mina Virgon

 

[deducer]

Upon entering the building you first must go through a metal detector and your bag will be x-rayed. You will then have to turn in your bag. The only things that you can carry with you into the archive are a laptop computer or note cards and pencil for transcribing. You cannot have a camera, pens, regular paper, notebooks, cell phones, or any other items. All of these things will be stored in lockers. After turning in your belongings you will be given a number. When you are done researching, or are taking a break and need access to your purse or phone, you will turn in the number at the front desk and the attendant will give you back your things. This same procedure will occur every day that you visit the AGI.

That's astounding, not to mention baffling as far as the camera/cell phones ban. It makes one speculate that either they know there are damning testimonies in the archive or probably that they just don't know due to the enormous size of it and are just playing it safe. Not necessarily treasure maps but probably uncensored/unfiltered New World policy, for instance that 16th-18th century Spain may have been very much aware of the genocide (of the Indians) they were incurring and viewed it as a necessary evil of economic exploitation.

 

[Oroblanco]

UncleMatt wrote

I would like to ask where any of you would go to find research material that would definitively resolve this one way or the other for you personally. If you could have access to any currently unavailable archive, library, database, or private collection, which ones would those be?

Probably the best archive would be the one posted by Springfield in Seville, Spain, and we could add the Archivo General de la Nación in Mexico city. However this could be frustrating, for it is not at all certain that many mines or the products of them (bullion) were officially declared to the government, even though legally they were required to. Also we are rather late comers to this search, many earlier treasure hunters had access to all the documents held at the various missions, which they were free to take or buy, cheap so it is very unlikely that any original documentation about illicit mines is going to turn up, unless from the personal collection of old time treasure hunters.

Actually I don't know what more you could do, from the "legend" or story of lost mines to being able to stand in the very mines of story as at Salero, if this is not enough (and clearly it is not enough for some people) I don't know what sort of "proof" would change that situation. A Catholic study listed some mines which the Jesuit Order owned and operated openly too, plus some gold and silver bullion were found in Jesuit missions in Baja, which Galvez stated had not been declared as required.

Almost forgot this too but our Jesuits were hardly the only Order whom were out digging for precious metals, and an example of a lost mine which was once just a story that you can literally stand in today, the once-famous lost Mojave mine west of Quartzite. This was supposedly originally opened by the Franciscan padres working out of Bicuner near Yuma, and after the disaster there the mine was held secret by the Mojave tribe for over a century. A lucky prospector followed the chief of the tribe to the general area, then found the old trail to the covered mine. You can see it from the highway about six miles west of Quartzsite AZ today.

One more thing, but our amigo Cactusjumper has taken exception that we are never "telling the whole story" in our posts. This is a debate over whether Jesuit treasures are real or not, so in a sense it would be unrealistic to try to present the WHOLE picture, when we are trying to convince others about this question. It would add nothing to prove there were and are Jesuit treasures, to include a lot of text describing the poverty of father Kino, and besides those personal vows of poverty have nothing to do with the Order.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[UncleMatt]

Lets say we started a project to send a qualified person to those archives, and arranged for them to be able to view the records. Who would we send out of this group? Who is best qualified to read those old documents in Spanish that is among our group here, and could be counted on to report back anything that was found without personal bias?

 

[Springfield]

Lets say we started a project to send a qualified person to those archives, and arranged for them to be able to view the records. Who would we send out of this group? Who is best qualified to read those old documents in Spanish that is among our group here, and could be counted on to report back anything that was found without personal bias?

It's not a fishing trip. You have to know exactly which documents you wish to view, so a great deal of research in their online catalog would have to be done before you even think about visiting the archives. Obviously, you need someone very fluent in Spanish - not only today's but especially the use of the language during the time period(s) you're searching. Also, these documents are handwritten, and just interpreting the words on the paper is a daunting task to start with. I would say that you would need a professional academic in order to maximize the results.

Don't forget the cost. US$1,500 round trip plane ticket to Seville to start with. Daily expenses of maybe US$150/day (modest). That's around US$6,000 for a month, not counting any document reproduction costs. What if you were paying the researcher for his time too? You might be better served to do the prelim work here (list of documents) and hire an experienced Spaniard over there.

Mexican archives? Sorry - way, way too much past and present corruption potential for my taste.

 

[Somero]

I'm sure the AGI archives would give some information on Spanish mining activities, like mentioned above, would it be the entire truth about those activities. Perhaps looking for information on Spanish opinions about the Jesuits would be the way to go.

Would the Vatican archives be more appropriate? That is if anybody can even view them.


Springfield

I'm curious about that "cypher" you posted, you mentioned it is not decoded but was it written by the Jesuit's?

 

[UncleMatt]

I didn't ask about the logistics involved, I asked who would we send.

 

[deducer]

Also we are rather late comers to this search, many earlier treasure hunters had access to all the documents held at the various missions, which they were free to take or buy, cheap so it is very unlikely that any original documentation about illicit mines is going to turn up, unless from the personal collection of old time treasure hunters.
Oroblanco

Very likely the case, and not just taken or bought, but outright stolen or misappropriated as in the case of Peg Leg Tumlinson who allegedly had far more than his share- including a vest full of waybills that burned up.

Fortunately that is not my purpose for burrowing through the archive or doing research in general, rather to construct an extensive first-hand history, where possible, of Jesuit intrigue into the Southwest, including the history of the Stone Maps that go back just a little further than 1949.

IMHO, Tracy Hawkins, unless he was telling us a tall tale, nearly got his hands on something like this, but as fate would have it, it disappeared from sight when he went back for it.

 

[sailaway]

Speaking of archived records here is what I read in the Molina document. It seems the last paragraph was left out in the translation. I did my best to reconstruct what it says.
"That the one move or fashion in order to say on random this to the one conflict, that Mr. Key Indian child horseman guide, he is seasick for the psychopathic ways. the 12th of the year of Federal District of 1558. They sin most as if it is none of my business at any one time."
So here it is in Father Kino's own words that the Indians expressed a strong desire to go back to their old ways where "Might makes Right" of raping and pillaging, murder, theft, gambling, sex, cheating and all the ways in which they were accustomed. The Padres had in their employment a converted Indian boy who had shown them the Mines that the Mayan had told them about. This being only 56 years after Christopher Columbus had landed at Gaunihauni or the Plana Cays in the Bahamas. Yet here they were in Sonora Mexico, in the Superstitions. This means that over 450 years of Spanish history in this area. One hundred years later the priest bury the treasurein the Mina La Prisma Concepecion. This Mine is in the vicentity of Tortilla Flats. In 1658 King Philip the second of Spain ordered that the measurement of Leagua be removed from the measurement system that year. The Same reason that Paralta was there and why Jacob Waltz meet him. So Peralta was a miner and Treasure Hunter that was looking for the Mina La Purisma Conception. His Family had followed the clues to its location. Now all we have to do is find it to prove it. The mine is 6 miles north of the Monument on the hill over the cave dwellings in Rogers Canyon.This puts it in the vicinity of the rim of the Tonto Basin Mesa. This area is where Geologist have said if there was large scale mining it would have taken place there. (read the early surveys of the area)
This was also the first stop the Priest made when the Indian uprising took place. They were bringing gold from the Mina Serria Guahapa de les Sorcanias de Tubsea. roughly translated means "Mine of the Uproar of the Super Gutter of the Wall to Follow". This Mine is on the Sycamore river between Sedona and Perkinsville today. It is said that there is a large Indian head in the canyon and the mine is under its nose.This means they were traveling south along the Verde river to the Salt river. When they got to the Tonto Basin Rim is when they saw the Apache Nation coming towards them. They turned south to the Mina La Purisma Concepcion to unload heavy gear. They then rode south to the Mina de OPATAS de Tumacacory. here they unloaded more gear. Continuing on they made it to just below the Mina Virgon de Gaudelupe where they were cut off and killed.

 

[Springfield]

I'm sure the AGI archives would give some information on Spanish mining activities, like mentioned above, would it be the entire truth about those activities. Perhaps looking for information on Spanish opinions about the Jesuits would be the way to go.

Would the Vatican archives be more appropriate? That is if anybody can even view them.


Springfield

I'm curious about that "cypher" you posted, you mentioned it is not decoded but was it written by the Jesuit's?

No, it was written by some Spanish official - someone whose name I'd never seen before. I didn't realize that no photos were allowed and was busted right as I took the pic. I guess it flustered me a bit and I forgot to write the name down. I do remember that right next to the coded letter was a report written by Balboa.

 

[Springfield]

I didn't ask about the logistics involved, I asked who would we send.

"We?" I got no recommendations.

 

[Somero]

Thanks Springfield, that answers some questions.............of course it raises others.

LMAO.................."WE Send" I have to budget to have gas for a trip to the Supe's let alone send someone to Seville, but if someone is paying I'll go as long as my wife can go also

Wonder if I could get a good haircut while I'm there

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Uncle Matt you asked -->Who would we send out of this group? Who is best qualified to read those old documents in Spanish?
-------------------------------------------------------

There are several, all excellent, but for all around effect I would suggest Oro, sides it would get him away from his fixation on sheep

Don Jose de La Mancha