JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

No need to be difficult. You know as well as anyone that those type of people are heavily prejudiced against the TH community. Father Polzer, as an historian, is a good example. Source: In the August 1962 edition of DESERT, he excoriates the idea of there being Jesuit treasure, but does not do so in a scientific fashion. Many claim to have found the end of the trail, including you, but insufficient evidence, visual or otherwise, has been presented to support their arguments or yours, except in one case.

deducer,

Many people have found my solution of the Stone Map Trail to be the best one available. All of my evidence is visible and has been posted many, many times. In addition, I have provided my trail laid out on a topographic map to many folks. Some of them, admittedly, don't find it as close a fit as I do.

In that respect, they are much like you and your seeming inability to follow my explanation of the precepts, no matter how I word the answer.......to make it simple and obvious. No doubt that is my failing rather than any fault of yours. Here I was expecting a thank you, and all I got was the same question over and over again.

At work right now, so I won't give you the page #, but here is one of my sources:

Father Charles Polzer SJ’s book: “Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain".

No doubt, being the efficient researcher you are, I would assume you already have Father Polzer's book.

I realize a simple thank you for providing the answer to your question, is out of the question, since you see no value in my answer. That being the case, there is no value in my providing you with any other sources in the future.

Good luck with the Stone Maps.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi sreak robber, no coffee?

Father Polzer once told me "when You open Tayopa I will buy new shoes and dance at the party"> Just what do you thinkthar he meant?

He had a fine sense of humor.

We did spar quite a bit before he passed on in Santa Barbara while waiting for a resection

I did miss him

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. I once asked him jus thow should I address him, he answered "anything that you wish except late for dinner"

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

P. P. S He never flatly said that it 'didn't exist', just an oblique answer

p.p.p.S. I hadn't developed the data on Coadjutors,, so was unable to qestion him on them as the front for the Jesuit mining.

Jose

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi sreak robber, no coffee? Father Polzer once told me "when You open Tayopa I will buy new shoes and dance at the party"> Just what do you thinkthar he meant? He had a fine sense of humor. We did spar quite a bit before he passed on in Santa Barbara while waiting for a resection I did miss him Don Jose de La Mancha P.S. I once asked him jus thow should I address him, he answered "anything that you wish except late for dinner"

Don Jose,

Father Polzer was a simple man. He would not need to buy a new pair of shoes for any celebration. He probably thought it was a safe promise, one that he would never have to honor. No matter how you look at it.......he turned out to be right.

He and his puppy were never late for a meal.

The Jesuit were always at the top of the intelligence food chain, as well. Father O'Malley told me it was possible that some Jesuits in Mexico were involved in mining. While he had not researched the Order in Mexico, such things are always possible.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Many people have found my solution of the Stone Map Trail to be the best one available. All of my evidence is visible and has been posted many, many times. In addition, I have provided my trail laid out on a topographic map to many folks. Some of them, admittedly, don't find it as close a fit as I do.

In that respect, they are much like you and your seeming inability to follow my explanation of the precepts, no matter how I word the answer.......to make it simple and obvious. No doubt that is my failing rather than any fault of yours. Here I was expecting a thank you, and all I got was the same question over and over again.

At work right now, so I won't give you the page #, but here is one of my sources:

Father Charles Polzer SJ’s book: “Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain".

No doubt, being the efficient researcher you are, I would assume you already have Father Polzer's book.

I realize a simple thank you for providing the answer to your question, is out of the question, since you see no value in my answer. That being the case, there is no value in my providing you with any other sources in the future.

Good luck with the Stone Maps.

Joe Ribaudo

You will forgive me if I do not accept your hypothesis as to the site you think the Stone Maps represent.

There are too many elements missing from your proposed site, especially the symbols presented on the trail maps.

Those symbols have been represented as being elsewhere.

In regard to the ecclesiastical precepts, I don't see why you can't understand that my question has nothing to do with the precepts themselves, but everything to do with rule #4, which states that mining is strictly off-limits.

The one thing I will thank you for is participating in this discussion. It has been an enjoyable one, for me.

 

[cactusjumper]

You will forgive me if I do not accept your hypothesis as to the site you think the Stone Maps represent. There are too many elements missing from your proposed site, especially the symbols presented on the trail maps. Those symbols have been represented as being elsewhere. In regard to the ecclesiastical precepts, I don't see why you can't understand that my question has nothing to do with the precepts themselves, but everything to do with rule #4, which states that mining is strictly off-limits. The one thing I will thank you for is participating in this discussion. It has been an enjoyable one, for me.

deducer,

Of that I have no doubt.

I would suggest that we move any discussion of the Stone Maps into the proper venue.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Hola amigos, While I keep trying to "give up" on ever convincing Cactusjumper Joe on this topic, it occurred to me that perhaps I had failed to present an angle of this argument, which might have had some effect. So I must beg your indulgence again, thanks in advance. Joe - you have mentioned previously, that you spent decades researching this very topic, and have spoken with a number of highly respected historians about it, and this led you to conclude that there never were any Jesuit mines or treasures. Later you modified this to allow ONE mine, and now a "few" but still so insignificant as to be negligable. I have tried to point out that most modern historians, and ancient as well, are NOT interested in what any religious Order might have been doing to make money at their proselytizing missions or colonies. Historians are concerned with the facts of history, and such topics as we are discussing are very much anathema. Besides the lack of interest, there is also a level of professional, ah, well let us call it "Respect" for the Catholic Church (big C there) and a desire NOT to offend them by pointing out the rather brutal and offensive practices used by members of this same Church centuries ago. After all, any historian might well say, times were rather different than today, for instance slavery was legal and widespread, public floggings and executions commonplace and so forth. However little interest our modern historians have and have had for Jesuit mining activities, and the resulting massing of treasures/bullion, one group of experts have had such an interest, namely our experts in geology and mining. So when the USGS and Bureau of Mines, not to mention the Arizona state geology and mining agencies state that the Jesuits were the first Europeans to mine west of the Rockies, does that not carry more weight, than the historian whose main focus has been on the events and persons, wars and revolts, or the founding and destruction of cities? Why do you dismiss these experts out of hand, when they are the very type of experts whom have indeed researched in depth and on the ground at some of the old Jesuit mines as the Salero, Wandering Jew, Old Padres etc? Then it also occurred to me that you have also dismissed out of hand a string of other, otherwise highly respected sources including, <a PARTIAL listing of some of the sources posted so far in this thread> Jesuit historian Father Polzer, highly respected as an expert in the history of Arizona, cited for his recording of Jesuit rules and precepts against mining and business for profit, as well as openly admitting of two instances where Jesuit priests were caught mining and punished for it. The Royal Geographic Society, respected worldwide for their expertise The Arizona Bureau of Mines, Two Governors of Arizona Territory Jesuit Father Och, and I would point out to you that he was perfectly SAFE when he was writing his memoirs, as he was then in Europe not Sonora Jesuit Father Nentvig, whose Rudo Ensayo is one of the very few sources we have with good and fairly accurate descriptions of the settlements, mines and geography of the region as it was in the 1760's Catholic Bishop Palafox, whose letters of complaint against the Jesuits were largely supported by Pope Innocent The US Superintendant of Mining Statistics The official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico The internet version history of the city of Pozos, Mexico Jesuit Father Keller's letter to Father Stiger, reporting on his hiding church valuables Father Hernando de Cabrero, Visitor on keeping certain communications secret Photos of various Jesuit churches in the Americas, showing beautiful and rich ornamentation, including one with seven tons of gold The King of Spain's order expelling the Jesuits Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga repeating the rule against Jesuits mining Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia repeating the rule against Jesuits mining Father Alonso de Arrivillaga instructing Jesuits to burn incriminating letters and documents Thomas Edward Farish, Arizona historian The public internet site for the city of Cananea, Mexico A photo of huge furnaces for smelting of silver in Mexico built by Jesuits Author Robert Cooper West The internet page on Jesuits in the city of San Luis de la Paz, Mexico The US Bureau of Statistics, Treasury Department Mining magazine: devoted to mines, mining operations, metallurgy & c, Volume 8, 1857 Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ... By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. Dirección General MINING AND CIVIL ENGINEER CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL OFFICES OF MINES AND GEOLOGY, reported on many Jesuit mines and included a direct translation of a Jesuit-owned mining claim document. A report written by a pirate who actually served with Captain Morgan telling of the church riches, The Buccaneers of America, in the original English translation of 1684, by John Esquemeling Father Alonso de Arrivillaga & Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo CMK Paulison, Arizona promoter and historian Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris <Jesuit Relations, letter from Jesuit on delightful profits they are making which are in direct opposition to the rule against their trade in furs> Jesuit Father Gravier reporting on his prospecting for mines Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, a highly respected source I will point out Ex-jesuit Paul Hoensbroech (Graf von), for his letter of Bishop Palafox and for Jesuit wealth discovered on their arrests and expulsions in Europe Memoirs of Saint-Simon Journal of the American Geographical Society of New York Johannes Janssen, German historian Jesuit Ernest J. Burrus, editor of Ducrue's account of the Jesuits expulsion from CA Jesuit Father Baegert, for his reporting that the Jesuits were indeed accused of mining The Jesuit Relation for 1659 Sent to Reverend Father Claude Boucher, Provincial of the Province of France. reporting on the discovery of a gold vein which the Jesuits kept their lay workmen from by pretending it was "brass" which would not occur in nature that way Harper's Magazine, highly respected for their Civil War coverage The resources of Arizona: its mineral, farming, and grazing lands, towns ... By Patrick Hamilton, Arizona. Legislative Assembly 1881 The New York Times Frank S. Ingalls Report to Congress of 1906 Reports from the consuls of the United States, Issues 81-84 By United States. Bureau of Foreign Commerce, 1887 Bishop Antonio de los Reyes <ornaments in the missions as you found them after Jesuit expulsion> The hand-book to Arizona: its resources, history, towns, mines, ruins and ... By Richard Josiah Hinton 1878 New Mexico, her natural resources and attractions: By Elias Brevoort, 1874, self-published but with excellent sources listed in his preface The US Forest Service for their definition of mining Papal Bull Dominus ac Redemptor signed by Pope Clement XIV The National Park Service (holds many interesting Jesuit and Spanish colonial documents) New Advent.org a Catholic run website, historical data on Jesuit punishments for Indians Codelco Chile Corporation (a mining company which owns a former Jesuit mine in Chile) Martin Hunter, former official of the Hudson Bay Company A candid history of the Jesuits By Joseph McCabe History of the north Mexican states, Volume 1 By Hubert Howe Bancroft, Henry Lebbeus Oak, Joseph Joshua Peatfield, William Nemos Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana,Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla The history of California By Franklin Tuthill, SAN FRANCISCO HH BANCROFT & COMPANY 1866 Ecuador: its ancient and modern history, topography and natural resources ... By Charles Reginald Enock,NEW YORK 1914 History of the Jesuits: from the foundation of their society to ..., Volume 1 By Andrew Steinmetz, pp 421 PHILADELPHIA LEA AND BLANCHARD 1848 "Jesuit Saints and Blesseds" a website OF the Society of Jesus Mindat.org, an internet database of mines around the world COUNTY RESOURCE SERIES No 1 SEPT 26 1916 SANTA CRUZ COUNTY ARIZONA THE OLDEST MINING REGION OF RECORD ON THE PACIFIC OF THE UNITED STATES By Allen T Bird University of Arizona Mission Guevavi excavation by William J. Robinson, published in the KIVA, vol 42, No. 2. 1976 Luz de Tierra Incognita by Spanish Captain Juan Mateo Manje, who accompanied Father Kino on some of his explorations Jesuit Father and now Saint Eusebio Kino The Bankers' magazine, and statistical register, Volume 32 Arizona and Silver Mining, George R Gibson April 1878 Reverend Victor B. Stoner's 1937 Thesis, titled "THE SPANISH MISSIONS OF THE SANTA CRUZ VALLEY." New Handy Atlas By McNally and Co Rand, Rand McNally and Company, Chigaco and New York, 1892 Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the LETTER from THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY by United States Dept of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond, United States Commissioner of Mining Statistics, GEO S BOUTWELL Secretary of the Treasury 1871 Terry's Mexico: handbook for travellers, SONORA NEWS COMPANY Callé de las Estaciones 12 Mexico City Mexico T. Philip Terry, 1911 A letter from Captain Juan Bautista de Anza to Bishop Benito Crespo, January 7, 1737 Modern History being a continuation of the Universal History Volume 39 By George Sale, George Psalmanazar, Archibald Bower, George Shelvocke, John Campbell, John Swinton, London 1763 <There are quite a few more but I think this makes the point> Do you still hold all of these sources in contempt, as "repeating lies" to make it the truth, based on some "enemies" of the Jesuits? Anyone whom looked at the Jesuits cross-eyed could be interpreted as their "enemy" it seems. And Joe, despite our having cited all these sources, pointed out the Jesuit precepts against mining and yet it is documented that they had a number of mines and slaves to boot, besides the Royal orders repeatedly attempting to get ALL the religious Orders to stop mining, plus that SOME gold was found hidden in one of the Jesuit missions in Baja after the expulsion, you continue to view all those sources as "a lie repeated often enough to become the truth"? To me, it appears that you are not just "convinced" of your opinions but have chosen to be blind to any and every thing which is contrary to your belief. Do you not remember that our Jesuits have denied having ANY mines or treasures? There should not be any evidence or record of them, for this to be true. Yet even father Kino hid a treasure during the 1695 uprising, fathers Nentvig and Och describe the impressive "ornaments" including solid silver statues and candelabras etc. We know that the Jesuits had their own fleet of ships, separate from the Papal navy, what were those ships for, if not to carry their rather impressive commerce and bullion? They say that there is no anti-smoker worse than a reformed EX-smoker, and this parallels our discourse here, for you once did believe that there were Jesuit treasures, though looking in the one area where it is most unlikely (the Superstitions) and came to disbelieve, well at one time I did not believe there were any such treasures OR mines, for I reasoned, how on earth could a MINE be lost, after all? In other words you are the reformed ex-believer, and I am the reformed ex-skeptic, which makes both of us less willing to change position. The truth is there amigo, those Indians rebelled against their Spanish and Jesuit (and Franciscan) masters repeatedly and for good reason. Indians fled from the missions wholesale in California Alta, under the rule of the good Franciscan padres, and had to be rounded up and brought back as virtual prisoners in their own villages. The missions had to be self supporting - they HAD to make a profit, and the Jesuits were very energetic at finding ways for "their" Indians to be self supporting, with the padres holding the cash register of course, and set their Indians to work at plowing, planting, raising livestock, and mining - no possible source of earning income was ruled out, for anything from mining salt to trapping furs in the north country was fair game. I know we have reached the point where we are repeating things, which I admit to, which is easier than trying to find the old post and then post a link to it, and it is done to raise points and not simply for repetition; we are actually no where near the end of the available evidence concerning Jesuit mines and treasures, however when EVERY source provided, including Jesuit and Catholic studies is treated as if it were a pack of lies made up by treasure authors, I wonder if there is any reason to continue with this. I have some info which I believe would be very convincing to anyone whom might see it, but I will not post it nor share it as I intend to act upon this myself. Those treasure stories which you 'sneer' at, did not grow out of the air, in most cases such stories are based on facts. Details got garbled, sometimes exaggerated, but originated in real events and places. Otherwise where are the massive, impressive solid silver altar and ornaments of San Xavier del Bac, or those solid silver statues at EVERY dependent mission (aka visita) which have never been found? Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone, and I can agree with you that there are almost certainly no lost Jesuit treasures or mines in the Superstition mountians. I won't say absolutely no chance of it, because of a particularly grey episode of Jesuit history, namely their attempt to convert and reduce the Apaches, which failed twice. We know some details on the second failed attempt, but almost nothing on the first, only the name of the priest. I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Roy ~ Oroblanco

Roy,

I respect your opinion on Jesuit treasures. I'm dissapointed that you don't have the same respect for mine. Some of your choices of words, are very cutting.....from a friend.

Good luck and take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - my sincere apologies, NONE of my words were INTENDED to be offensive to you, and probably could have been stated in better terms.

As an example, I see one which does not come across (written) the way it sounded (in the head) as to being "blind" to evidence concerning Jesuit activities. I am "blind" to faults in Husky dogs, can hardly see any of their really quite difficult issues. For example I know they can be very destructive if you do not burn off their energies in positive ways like running and adventures, you will learn the hard way and it will be deliberate when they decide to shred your best pair of jeans, chew through chain link fence or tear the front door to toothpicks. To many people having a dog that will do such things would be quite unforgivable, and I don't "see" these problems because I am blind to them. I do try to keep the dogs energy spent in good ways to avoid those outcomes mentioned however. Anyway it was not meant as any insult or even as a barb.

I have another question for you Joe, and for the record, I DO respect your opinions on this topic (and many others) or I would never have spent these hours and now years debating it with you. When I have your answer, it could lead to another angle on this question which you may not have considered. Here is my question:

How do you view the properties of the Indians, of the various Missions during the colonial period? Meaning cattle, fields etc. Thank you in advance.

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, and please keep in mind that our debates have NO bearing on our friendship, regardless of how the words may flow.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

RE-POSTED: Here is a link with some samples. 82 pounds of Gold found.

1oro1.com/jesuits/rqfind.html

 

[cactusjumper]

Portola reached Loreto in December, 1768. He was amazed to find so barren a country—a country which has been aptly described as "a mountain chain, the bald, rocky, barren ridges of which alone have risen above or are not yet sunken beneath the waters of the ocean and gulf."
In this peninsula, extending about seven hundred miles from its southern extremity to the point where it joins upper California, there was not a river, unless the few small rivulets, flushed in the rainy seasons, could be so called. "Nothing was so common in (Baja) California, as rocks and thorn bushes, nothing so rare as moisture, wood and cool shade."
After examining the reported wealthy mines in the peninsula and discovering that they were not worth the working, Portola became not only convinced of the absurdity of the romantic tales of hidden wealth, but also of the disinterested motives which had actuated the Jesuit fathers in this land.
He addressed a letter to the president of the missions, inclosing the order of expulsion. No resistance was offered. At each mission the Jesuits bade farewell to their neophytes, and with heavy hearts departed for Loreto. They were often accompanied long distances on their way by the weeping Indians. One of the fathers who had spent seventeen years of his life in mission work in the peninsula wrote afterwards, "Not only did I weep then, but throughout the journey, and even now as I write the tears stand in my eyes."
The affection of the padres and neophytes for one another was doubtless perfectly sincere. The Indians were fed, cared for, and protected by a little band of men whose sole desire was to bring them into the fold of the church and keep them there for their souls' salvation. For over half a century they had labored faithfully in this dreary land. Many of them had grown old in their missions, and when they left, they experienced the heartaches of those who leave their homes forever.

http://www.heritage-history.com/?c=read&author=fitch&book=serra&story=jesuits

Is this even a possibility?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

I was fortunate to have been able to visit the 'Spanish Archives' (Archivo General De Indias) in Seville a couple weeks ago. It's a beautiful building with free admission and a terrific free exhibition of letters, reports, rosters, maps, weapons, artifacts, etc. from the Age of Discovery. Europe at the turn of the 16th Century was of course quite sophisticated with many well-educated and capable people involved in the discovery and exploitation of the New World. I was particularly struck with how meticulously the Spanish documented their efforts, and what an effort they made to detail everything, to a fault. Many letters on display underlined the Europeans' desires to treat the indigenous peoples encountered in a fair and righteous manner, including an original by Bartolome de las Casas. Well, we know how that all turned out.

Here's the point: with all the allegations, innuendos, punishments, circumstantial evidence, etc. against the Jesuits - specifically regarding mining in today's North America, has there ever surfaced a specific list of charges against them used to justify the 1767 expulsion? I'm talking about specific charges - a roster of illegal mines, their locations, reports of their operations, which church personnel or their agents were complicit, etc.? The Spanish were surely aware of said operations if they existed, and the Crown seemingly would have had specific evidence against the Jesuits before dropping the hammer on them. I've seen no smoking gun yet to prove the allegations. Is there one? If not, why not? Don't get me wrong - I have no reason to champion the Jesuits, whom I consider to be possibly the most avarice political/military band of criminals in modern times. That said, I would like to see incontrovertible proof of the North American charges against them, so that we could put this argument to rest. Otherwise, it all remains debatable, IMO.

[The second photo below is an interesting coded report from the west coast of Baja California - its contents weren't revealed]

 

[deducer]

Portola reached Loreto in December, 1768. He was amazed to find so barren a country—a country which has been aptly described as "a mountain chain, the bald, rocky, barren ridges of which alone have risen above or are not yet sunken beneath the waters of the ocean and gulf."
In this peninsula, extending about seven hundred miles from its southern extremity to the point where it joins upper California, there was not a river, unless the few small rivulets, flushed in the rainy seasons, could be so called. "Nothing was so common in (Baja) California, as rocks and thorn bushes, nothing so rare as moisture, wood and cool shade."
After examining the reported wealthy mines in the peninsula and discovering that they were not worth the working, Portola became not only convinced of the absurdity of the romantic tales of hidden wealth, but also of the disinterested motives which had actuated the Jesuit fathers in this land.
He addressed a letter to the president of the missions, inclosing the order of expulsion. No resistance was offered. At each mission the Jesuits bade farewell to their neophytes, and with heavy hearts departed for Loreto. They were often accompanied long distances on their way by the weeping Indians. One of the fathers who had spent seventeen years of his life in mission work in the peninsula wrote afterwards, "Not only did I weep then, but throughout the journey, and even now as I write the tears stand in my eyes."
The affection of the padres and neophytes for one another was doubtless perfectly sincere. The Indians were fed, cared for, and protected by a little band of men whose sole desire was to bring them into the fold of the church and keep them there for their souls' salvation. For over half a century they had labored faithfully in this dreary land. Many of them had grown old in their missions, and when they left, they experienced the heartaches of those who leave their homes forever.

Heritage History | Homeschool History Curriculum | Junipero Serra by A. H. Fitch

Is this even a possibility?

Joe Ribaudo

I assume you speak of Gaspar de Portolà de Rovira, who was acccompanied by Father Serra, a Franciscan, of course.

Comparable with Bancroft's "History of the North Mexican States" where Bancroft compared the Jesuits with the Franciscans of Alta California where he also states that there is no evidence that the (Jesuit) Padres engaged in trade even with settlers and soldiers or mining by extension.

This is in direct contradiction to Pfefforkorn's statement attached to this post:



So one is forced to question the accuracy of the statement made that Jesuits did not engage in trading, and by extension any involvement with mining.

Also, the discovery of empty mines do not preclude the possibility that those mines were emptied by the Jesuits, one way or another. The Jesuits would presumably cover up any active mines as they have done so many times throughout history.

Source: "Jesuits Missions of Northern Mexico" from the Pacific Historical Review edited by Father Polzer.

 

[cactusjumper]

I assume you speak of Gaspar de Portolà de Rovira, who was acccompanied by Father Serra, a Franciscan, of course.

Comparable with Bancroft's "History of the North Mexican States" where Bancroft compared the Jesuits with the Franciscans of Alta California where he states that there is no evidence that the (Jesuit) Padres engaged in trade even with settlers and soldiers.

This is in direct contradiction to Pfefforkorn's statement attached to this post:

View attachment 963674

So one is forced to question the accuracy of the statement made that Jesuits did not engage in trading, and by extension any involvement with mining.

Also, the discovery of empty mines do not preclude the possibility that those mines were emptied by the Jesuits, one way or another. The Jesuits would presumably cover up any active mines as they have done so many times throughout history.

Source: "Jesuits Missions of Northern Mexico" from the Pacific Historical Review edited by Father Polzer.

deducer,

How, exactly, does one make the "extension" between trading and involvement in mining?

Yes, empty mines did not preclude the possibility that they were Jesuit mines. It also would not preclude the possibility the the mines were worked by the Indians.......for themselves. It's also possible that the mines were surface loads that were quickly worked out by the Spaniards and abandoned.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: Since it hasn't appeared to have been read in past posts, I will repeat it again,'the society was 'not' expelled for mining', which they were dong freely in all other Spanish holdings, and in the world, but, for fomenting an insurrection against Spain,to take North America away from Her, The same pattern for which they were expelled in most of the world in that period...

The mission Priest starved with his flock on dried grasshoppers etc.and only indulged in an occasional bit of mining here and there, with the Mission at Baroyeca being a notable exception, and even there, it was shared with the Parish members.

The major exception was The Tayopa mines and complex.

The coadjunctors were the physical front for the mining and in control of the clandestine missions used to leap frog the metal to Rome..

Mining by the Jesuits was not done by the Jesuit ordained Priests as such, but they 'were' in control, so is an egg viewed as an egg or a Rooster?.

Here is a bit on the Jesuit Society by them ===>

"In short, a Jesuit is a member of the largest Catholic religious order for men in the world. (Other religious orders would include familiar groups like the Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Trappists and Salesians.) That means that, like other religious orders (there are orders for women too, of course), we take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience and live in community together. Unlike diocesan priests, however, our work isn’t focused as much on parish life. A diocesan priest (or parish priest in common parlance) enters a local seminary in order to prepare for his work in a particular diocese, in a series of parishes — celebrating Masses; presiding at baptisms, wedding and funerals; perhaps running a parish school; and entering into the lives of his parishioners. Religious-order priests have a somewhat different portfolio. For instance, besides our better-known work in education (in middle schools, high schools and colleges), Jesuits work as retreat directors, hospital chaplains and prison chaplains, and in positions as varied as geologists, musicians, astronomers, social activists, physicians and writers, among many others. And just to confuse matters even more, sometimes the local bishop asks us to take over a parish — so yes, we end up working as parish priests. But my work at a Catholic magazine, while centered on prayer and the Mass, is quite different from that of the daily life of a parish priest — not better or worse, just different.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

deducer,

How, exactly, does one make the "extension" between trading and involvement in mining?

Yes, empty mines did not preclude the possibility that they were Jesuit mines. It also would not preclude the possibility the the mines were worked by the Indians.......for themselves. It's also possible that the mines were surface loads that were quickly worked out by the Spaniards and abandoned.

Joe Ribaudo

Does the phrase

no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly

not ring a bell?

By trading with the Spanish miners and acquiring what those mines produced, the Jesuits became indirectly involved with mining.

Portolia's dismissal of "wealthy mines" was later endorsed by Bancroft who went on to make the comparison between the Jesuits and Franciscans, in the book I referenced.

I have just shown where Bancroft is in error, by citing Pfefferkorn's admission, that the Jesuits not only engaged in trading, but were indirectly associated with mining in that they acquired the byproducts of the mines.

Where Bancroft is in error, it is not unreasonable to assume that Portolia is also in error. On what grounds can he make claims that his failure to discover those "wealthy mines" must only mean that Jesuits were then not involved with "wealthy mines"?

Frankly, I'm surprised that someone like you who claims to be very knowledgeable about Indians would state that they worked mines for themselves. Neither the Sonoran nor American Indians evinced the slightest interest in metals prior to the Spanish invasion.

In fact, from "Early History of the Southwest Through the Eyes of German-speaking Jesuit Missionaries" by Albrecht Classen:

"The Indians curse and execrates all gold and silver mines.."

 

[deducer]

Here's the point: with all the allegations, innuendos, punishments, circumstantial evidence, etc. against the Jesuits - specifically regarding mining in today's North America, has there ever surfaced a specific list of charges against them used to justify the 1767 expulsion? I'm talking about specific charges - a roster of illegal mines, their locations, reports of their operations, which church personnel or their agents were complicit, etc.? The Spanish were surely aware of said operations if they existed, and the Crown seemingly would have had specific evidence against the Jesuits before dropping the hammer on them. I've seen no smoking gun yet to prove the allegations. Is there one? If not, why not? Don't get me wrong - I have no reason to champion the Jesuits, whom I consider to be possibly the most avarice political/military band of criminals in modern times. That said, I would like to see incontrovertible proof of the North American charges against them, so that we could put this argument to rest. Otherwise, it all remains debatable, IMO.

That is a great point you bring up.

Let me then ask you a question- suppose you suspected the Jesuits of being involved in mining in the New World, how would you go around gathering evidence?

This is keeping in mind that this is the mid 18th century in the extreme northern territory of the Spanish New World, which is very much a wild frontier where no sane man ventures.

 

[releventchair]

Jesuit vineyards in Peru were important as wine was a part of some salaries around the mining activities in Potosi where the mechanics of the game could be learned quickly by scholars. I don,t see what the Jesuits received for wine but also don,t see suffering like those farther north did. Could I end the struggle for bare bones funding ,should I when others suffer as well as our goals? I,ll beg and plead but after better men die ,silver looks like a better way maybe when Paris so far away..Quite a contrast from south to north America,more when you learn of or have seen the conditions of the priests.
Cambridge Journals Online - The Journal of Ecclesiastical History - Abstract - Lords of the Land: sugar, wine, and Jesuit estates of coastal Peru, 1600?1767. By Nicholas P. Cushner. Pp. x + 225 incl. 3 maps, 5 figures & tables. Albany: State Universi
Peru ran in the black,while those starting in the north were left wanting as though very different entities, and left to their own devices to fail or prosper once stock pleaded for was approved or denied plus the time required to arrive.Did anyone have records of providing goods to Jesuits in north America and mention type of payment?
The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents Volume 66

 

[cactusjumper]

That is a great point you bring up.

Let me then ask you a question- suppose you suspected the Jesuits of being involved in mining in the New World, how would you go around gathering evidence?

This is keeping in mind that this is the mid 18th century in the extreme northern territory of the Spanish New World, which is very much a wild frontier where no sane man ventures.

deducer,

Pretty simple really.....put the suspected Jesuit's head in a vice and tighten it until you get brains or your answer. That was popular for gathering evidence in those days. Pretty much the same as you are doing here.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening Cactus: As a matter fo fact the Jesuit society was a firm believer and backer of the Inquisition which sanctioned precisely that sort of questioning.


Don Jose de La Mancha.

 

[Springfield]

That is a great point you bring up.

Let me then ask you a question- suppose you suspected the Jesuits of being involved in mining in the New World, how would you go around gathering evidence?

This is keeping in mind that this is the mid 18th century in the extreme northern territory of the Spanish New World, which is very much a wild frontier where no sane man ventures.

Earlier in this thread we established the locations and extent of the King's presence on the far northern frontier. It wasn't ubiquitous, but it was significant and adequate for the purpose, IMO. However, based on the lack of 'proper proof', the expected protocol, it seems to me Mr. Ribaudo's speculation - that the Crown 'had it in' for the Jesuits and expelled them from North America, at least, on general principles, not hard evidence - may not be so farfetched. This doesn't mean that the brothers weren't guilty as sin of course, but it certainly doesn't prove a case against them either. The burden of proof has been implied but not confirmed.