JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

I hope that this won't be your last attempt. I enjoy reading your very informative posts. I do not have any hope of changing Joe's opinions, but this does not stop me from debating or discussing with him. He frequently generates interesting discussions, and has provoked many excellent posts that otherwise would not have been posted. For that, I am grateful to him. My purpose in debating with him or with others, or presenting evidence or speculating here, as far as the real purpose of the Jesuit expansion into the Southwest, is to solidify arguments that I may have to make elsewhere at another time that will have far more ramifications than on here.

deducer,

Most people have heard "tell a lie often enough and it will become the truth", or something very close to that. Hard to pin down the original speaker/writer, but human nature seems to indicate that it's a true statement. From personal experience, it's not conjecture.

My opinion has been changed many, many times and I suspect that will continue. I used to believe in Jesuit Treasure but changed that opinion (with research) over time. People can read the exact same things as others do, and come to diametrically opposed conclusions.

I would agree with you that you do not have any hope of changing my opinion. Others, like Roy do have some hope of accomplishing that......with an intelligent approach. We have a long history of disagreeing on some things, and agreeing on much more. It helps that we have respect for each other. When you started posting here, it was quickly obvious that you were coming from another angle and with an agenda. We all, including you, give our opinions based on the body of research we have done. If you don't like my style, just say so and leave it behind you.

Thanks for the kind words,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[deducer]

deducer,

Most people have heard "tell a lie often enough and it will become the truth", or something very close to that. Hard to pin down the original speaker/writer, but human nature seems to indicate that it's a true statement. From personal experience, it's not conjecture.

My opinion has been changed many, many times and I suspect that will continue. I used to believe in Jesuit Treasure but changed that opinion (with research) over time. People can read the exact same things as others do, and come to diametrically opposed conclusions.

I would agree with you that you do not have any hope of changing my opinion. Others, like Roy do have some hope of accomplishing that......with an intelligent approach. We have a long history of disagreeing on some things, and agreeing on much more. It helps that we have respect for each other. When you started posting here, it was quickly obvious that you were coming from another angle and with an agenda. We all, including you, give our opinions based on the body of research we have done. If you don't like my style, just say so and leave it behind you.

Thanks for the kind words,

Joe Ribaudo

My only agenda is to solidify arguments I may have to make elsewhere.

I try to avoid opinions and let the facts speak for themselves.

Speaking of which, when are you going to answer my question about the ecclesiastical precepts?

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

I have no idea why two precepts were needed. Perhaps they came from two different authorities. Perhaps they wanted to put an exclamation point on the first one. I don't know. No matter who has an opinion, including you, it's pure speculation.

I assume you know the two precepts were close to fifty years apart and from two seperate sources.

OK, now I will ask a question. Why do you think there were two precepts from the church?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

You wrote:

"I try to avoid opinions and let the facts speak for themselves."

Previously you also wrote:

"Unlike you, I don't allow myself the luxury of presuming or guessing, when it comes to researching subject matters that I have invested my time in, substantially.

And as far as I am concerned, what separates a professional researcher from an amateur researcher, when it comes to confronting a great deal of circumstantial evidence, is not the size of his or her library, but how the research itself is substantialized, either by cross-referencing, looking for common patterns, or testimony from unrelated sources, or sources unknown to each other, to detect common patterns. For example, the question of whether Jesuits were complicit in mining can be answered, not by looking for outright admittance, but looking at the macrocosm and the microcosm of the subject matter itself, for example-the philosophy and vision of the founder, Ignatius Loyola who was himself a foot soldier in the Basque legion, the later philosophy of the organization itself, its trajectory through history, and how history has treated it (with frequent expellation, etc).

You, on the other hand, have offered mostly platitudes that do not suggest objective or solid researching, some examples of which are listed below...."

I did not see a single source in your statement. Are we to assume it is all conjecture or simple opinion? On the other hand, not knowing what "expellation" is, maybe that explains it.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen coffee?

You 'do' realize that by supposedly not mining in Mexico or meddling in politics would be out of character for the Society, based upon their performances in the rest of the world, despite any pious denials ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I have no idea why two precepts were needed. Perhaps they came from two different authorities. Perhaps they wanted to put an exclamation point on the first one. I don't know. No matter who has an opinion, including you, it's pure speculation.

I assume you know the two precepts were close to fifty years apart and from two seperate sources.

OK, now I will ask a question. Why do you think there were two precepts from the church?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

That wasn't the question. The question was why they used two ecclesiastical precepts, both forty years apart, to address the issue of Jesuits being involved with mining if, as you say, it was not such a big issue (.e.g, a "very few mines")?

 

[deducer]

I did not see a single source in your statement. Are we to assume it is all conjecture or simple opinion? On the other hand, not knowing what "expellation" is, maybe that explains it.

Joe Ribaudo

That is because I didn't make a statement.

The only thing I said was this: "For example, the question of whether Jesuits were complicit in mining can be answered...."

Are you asking me to provide source(s) for a question that has yet to be answered?

 

[releventchair]

Okay,

THE ONLY THING I ASK OF ANYBODY BEFORE POSTING, IS THAT THEY READ THE ENTIRE POST FIRST

(I know it is long, but it contains a lot of referenced information)

Here we go with one of the all-time most contentious subjects in all of the Treasure Hunting World:

Hidden/Lost Jesuit Treasures

Funny thing, as I write this, the movie National Treasure just came on! HAHAHA

Where to start, where to start, where to start? I guess I should start with what might constitute a Jesuit Treasure;

1. Gold and Silver Bars, Coins and the like.

2. Candlesticks, Monstrances, Ciboria, and various other Church Vestments made of precious metals in quantities large or small.

3. A combination of numbers 1 and 2.

4. The exploration of the areas, conversions of the heathens, and aid they rendered to those converted.

First, nobody can argue that number 4 is not absolutely true. Both the spiritual and exploratory work they did from 1608 until their expulsion in 1767 was a wonder for the ages. An example of how a small group of determined people can make such extraordinary advances in the knowledge base of mankind and bringing the light of God into the hearts of so many people in a frightening new world. One has only to read about Padre Kino SJ and his changing of world maps that previous to his explorations showed California as an island. He was the first to contradict that idea. Other testaments lie in all the missions that were manned by the tiniest number of Jesuit Fathers in some of the most hostile territory on Earth. Many of them gave their lives in the most gruesome manners imaginable at the hands of those that fought the changes they wanted to bring.

Next, I would like to talk about number 2. Of all the Jesuit Treasures, this possibility is the most believeable to most people who are of a more skeptical bent. While some diehards do not believe that even these are possible, I give you the words of one of the most DIE HARD of all Jesuit Treasure Skeptics: Father Charles W. Polzer SJ; in the Aug 1962 edition of Desert Magazine, as part of a larger article on preserving the old missions and other historically significant places he writes:



While he does go on to say that no Church records have been found that verify this possibility, he DOES say that it is a possibility. For those of you who know Father Polzer's stance on the subject, it was indeed a revelation to me when I first read it.

We need to know why the Jesuits would want to amass such wonderous vestments in the first place. In some miserable mud hovel in an arid remote hostile desert setting, what would be the great need to have such things? Well, Father Johann (Juan) Nentvig SJ, in his book "Rudo Ensayo" spells it out so that even a person not having any secret Church knowledge can understand:



There you have it! A Jesuit Father himself quoting the very words of the Founder of the Jesuit Order: SAINT Ignatious Loyola! So, now we know WHY the Jesuits would want to accrue such beautiful and costly appointments, but do we have any evidence, other than what Father Polzer SJ calls a "possibility"? You bet your sweet bippy we do! We have the words of some of the Jesuit Fathers themselves. Why don't we start with our old friend, Father Johann Nentvig SJ (again from Rudo Ensayo):



That's pretty good. Anything else? You betcha! Why don't we read the words of Father Joseph Och SJ, in a passage from his journals (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767):



WOW! THAT'S AMAZING! Right from the horse's mouth. Let me here add a couple of points of fact so that the reader can make a more informed decision:

1. Father Nentvig's Journals are beyond reproach. There is no doubt he wrote the words that I have attributed to him.

2. Father Och's Journals are not 100% attributable. We know that he put them all together during his final years while he lived at the Jesuit College at Wurzburg, Bavaria. He passed away in 1773. Thirty-six years after his death in 1809, a book called "Der S.J. in Neumexico. Nachrichten von seinem Reisen nach dem Spanischen Amerika, seinem dortigen Auftenthalte vom Jahr 1755 bis 1767, und Rückkehr nach Europa 1768. Aus dessen eigenhändigen Aufsätzen" was published. These were the collected writings of Father Och SJ. His journals were kept at the Jesuit College in Wurzburg until most of the city was destroyed in an Allied Air Raid in 1945. I have not personally been able to locate them after that. So, while it is remotely possible that some parts of his journals MAY not have been written by Father Och, all one has to do is to read the entire book translated by Theodore E. Treutline to understand that it is HIGHLY unlikely that those were not the actual writings of Father Och SJ. I ONLY included this in the interest of being intellectually honest in what I say (unlike some). A final note about this journal's authenticity: While Lamar may have his doubts (whoever Lamar may be), the two most eminent Jesuit Historians of North America (Father Ernest J Burrus SJ and Father Charles W Polzer SJ have both worked on Theodore Treutline's Translation of "Der Glaubenspredigers ~" and neither of them seem to have any doubt whatsoever that those are the true and correct journals of Father Och SJ, and Theodore Treutline himself one of the most prolific translators of German Jesuit Writings did not doubt their veracity. I guess Lamar holds himself in very high regard. HAHAHA

Now. let us move on to numbers 1 and 3. There are no historical documents stating that the Jesuits possessed ANY stores of gold and/or silver bars, coins, etc. What we have, are a couple of documents that are SUPPOSED to be inventories of treasures that were hidden before the Jesuits were expelled from the New World during the night of 25-26 June 1767. Those who are familiar with histories written by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ, Father Charles W. Polzer SJ, Traditional Historians, and most history books detailing Colonial Spanish times in the New World are right now saying "THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE! King Charles III made certain that his orders to arrest all the Jesuits, march them to the sea, and ship them all back to Europe, were sealed and COMPLETELY secret until the day they were to be arrested! WRONG! Well, not completely wrong. They were supposedly a secret to everybody that received the King's Letters. There are a few little niggling facts that keep getting omitted from most of that history you have read. Surprised? I was!

First, here is a bit from the official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico:



While this in itself is not a smoking gun (so to speak), it does show that it MAY have been possible for the Jesuits to have received some advanced warning from those seculars who had allegiances to the Jesuits.

Here is something a more concrete. It's not a quote or something vague. It is simply an historical fact that keeps being either omitted or ignored by traditional historians:

The Jesuits knew without doubt what was coming! How do we know this? Very simply, the Jesuit Expulsions from all of Spain's Holdings around the world was not the only nor indeed the first of the Jesuit's Expulsions:

1. Due to Jesuit Involvement in Portuguese Rebellions, they were expelled from all of Portugal's lands around the world on 06 July 1758. A full nine years before their Spanish Expulsion!

2. Due to the same intrigues, in November of 1763, the French King dissolved the Jesuit Order in all French Holdings worldwide. Four years before their Spanish Expulsion!

3. Due, again, to more of the same intrigues, Spain and it's colonies (European), and it's principalities (Naples) arrested all the Jesuits during the night of 1-2 April 1767, and in Spain's Holdings worldwide on the night of 25-26 June 1767.

4. After a Papal Threat, the Kingdom of Parma expelled the Jesuits and dissolved their Order in 1768.

So, due to the earlier expulsions from everywhere else in the world (except Russia and Prussia) by the year 1763, there is little doubt that the Jesuit Order knew FAR in advance of 25-26 June 1767 that the very same fate would befall them in Spanish Lands in time. They had YEARS to hide all their great accumulated wealth.

Now, we move on to examine one of those supposed Jesuit Treasure "proofs". It has come to be known as the Molina Document and the associated Molina Map. It was said to be the product of a Sister Michaela Molina. While she was serving at an Archive in Rome, she supposedly came across a document that detailed a HUGE Cache of Jesuit Treasure that was buried near the Tumacacori Mission in the Santa Cruz River Valley. She was said to have hand copied the document and kept it a secret until she moved to the United States. There are a couple of problems with that document:

1. There is no extant record of any Sister Michaela Molina. There is a Molina Family that lives nearby, and their family history says there was a Michaela Molina. Nothing hard though.

2. The document and map were unknown until about 1933 when John D. Mitchell wrote about it. We know from the Stone Maps story that it could have been around, but kept a secret for many years before that, because of the nature of the information contained in the document. It is the contention of the National Park Service and the Jesuit Order that John D. Mitchell either had the document made or was defrauded by someone who knew he was a treasure hunter. The NPS gives many reasons for the document to be labeled a hoax/fraud. The main ones are the orientation of the page and the writing. They seem to miss the part of the story about where Sister Molina HAND COPIES her document from the original.

Here is a link to the TNet Thread on this subject:

Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

That's about all for now, as I am VERY tired of typing.

Best-Mike

You,re adding to the information the O.P. presented by such postings how? What disrespect for some one elses work.

 

[cactusjumper]

OC,

This thread has gone on now for over four years and 61 pages. Those of us who have been particpating have just about run out of material. We start repeating ourselves and it gets boring. If the conversation starts to take another, related, direction we tend to follow it.

I surely meant Mike no disrespect, but can guarantee you he would speak for himself if he felt that way.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
While I keep trying to "give up" on ever convincing Cactusjumper Joe on this topic, it occurred to me that perhaps I had failed to present an angle of this argument, which might have had some effect. So I must beg your indulgence again, thanks in advance.


Joe - you have mentioned previously, that you spent decades researching this very topic, and have spoken with a number of highly respected historians about it, and this led you to conclude that there never were any Jesuit mines or treasures. Later you modified this to allow ONE mine, and now a "few" but still so insignificant as to be negligable.


I have tried to point out that most modern historians, and ancient as well, are NOT interested in what any religious Order might have been doing to make money at their proselytizing missions or colonies. Historians are concerned with the facts of history, and such topics as we are discussing are very much anathema. Besides the lack of interest, there is also a level of professional, ah, well let us call it "Respect" for the Catholic Church (big C there) and a desire NOT to offend them by pointing out the rather brutal and offensive practices used by members of this same Church centuries ago. After all, any historian might well say, times were rather different than today, for instance slavery was legal and widespread, public floggings and executions commonplace and so forth.


However little interest our modern historians have and have had for Jesuit mining activities, and the resulting massing of treasures/bullion, one group of experts have had such an interest, namely our experts in geology and mining. So when the USGS and Bureau of Mines, not to mention the Arizona state geology and mining agencies state that the Jesuits were the first Europeans to mine west of the Rockies, does that not carry more weight, than the historian whose main focus has been on the events and persons, wars and revolts, or the founding and destruction of cities? Why do you dismiss these experts out of hand, when they are the very type of experts whom have indeed researched in depth and on the ground at some of the old Jesuit mines as the Salero, Wandering Jew, Old Padres etc?


Then it also occurred to me that you have also dismissed out of hand a string of other, otherwise highly respected sources including, <a PARTIAL listing of some of the sources posted so far in this thread>


Jesuit historian Father Polzer, highly respected as an expert in the history of Arizona, cited for his recording of Jesuit rules and precepts against mining and business for profit, as well as openly admitting of two instances where Jesuit priests were caught mining and punished for it.


The Royal Geographic Society, respected worldwide for their expertise
The Arizona Bureau of Mines,
Two Governors of Arizona Territory
Jesuit Father Och, and I would point out to you that he was perfectly SAFE when he was writing his memoirs, as he was then in Europe not Sonora
Jesuit Father Nentvig, whose Rudo Ensayo is one of the very few sources we have with good and fairly accurate descriptions of the settlements, mines and geography of the region as it was in the 1760's
Catholic Bishop Palafox, whose letters of complaint against the Jesuits were largely supported by Pope Innocent
The US Superintendant of Mining Statistics
The official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico
The internet version history of the city of Pozos, Mexico
Jesuit Father Keller's letter to Father Stiger, reporting on his hiding church valuables
Father Hernando de Cabrero, Visitor on keeping certain communications secret
Photos of various Jesuit churches in the Americas, showing beautiful and rich ornamentation, including one with seven tons of gold
The King of Spain's order expelling the Jesuits
Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga repeating the rule against Jesuits mining
Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia repeating the rule against Jesuits mining
Father Alonso de Arrivillaga instructing Jesuits to burn incriminating letters and documents
Thomas Edward Farish, Arizona historian
The public internet site for the city of Cananea, Mexico
A photo of huge furnaces for smelting of silver in Mexico built by Jesuits
Author Robert Cooper West
The internet page on Jesuits in the city of San Luis de la Paz, Mexico
The US Bureau of Statistics, Treasury Department
Mining magazine: devoted to mines, mining operations, metallurgy & c, Volume 8, 1857
Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ...
By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. Dirección General MINING AND CIVIL ENGINEER CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL OFFICES OF MINES AND GEOLOGY, reported on many Jesuit mines and included a direct translation of a Jesuit-owned mining claim document.
A report written by a pirate who actually served with Captain Morgan telling of the church riches, The Buccaneers of America, in the original English translation of 1684, by John Esquemeling
Father Alonso de Arrivillaga & Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo
CMK Paulison, Arizona promoter and historian
Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris <Jesuit Relations, letter from Jesuit on delightful profits they are making which are in direct opposition to the rule against their trade in furs>
Jesuit Father Gravier reporting on his prospecting for mines
Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, a highly respected source I will point out
Ex-jesuit Paul Hoensbroech (Graf von), for his letter of Bishop Palafox and for Jesuit wealth discovered on their arrests and expulsions in Europe
Memoirs of Saint-Simon
Journal of the American Geographical Society of New York
Johannes Janssen, German historian
Jesuit Ernest J. Burrus, editor of Ducrue's account of the Jesuits expulsion from CA
Jesuit Father Baegert, for his reporting that the Jesuits were indeed accused of mining
The Jesuit Relation for 1659 Sent to Reverend Father Claude Boucher, Provincial of the Province of France. reporting on the discovery of a gold vein which the Jesuits kept their lay workmen from by pretending it was "brass" which would not occur in nature that way
Harper's Magazine, highly respected for their Civil War coverage
The resources of Arizona: its mineral, farming, and grazing lands, towns ...
By Patrick Hamilton, Arizona. Legislative Assembly 1881
The New York Times
Frank S. Ingalls Report to Congress of 1906
Reports from the consuls of the United States, Issues 81-84
By United States. Bureau of Foreign Commerce, 1887
Bishop Antonio de los Reyes <ornaments in the missions as you found them after Jesuit expulsion>
The hand-book to Arizona: its resources, history, towns, mines, ruins and ...
By Richard Josiah Hinton 1878
New Mexico, her natural resources and attractions: By Elias Brevoort, 1874, self-published but with excellent sources listed in his preface
The US Forest Service for their definition of mining
Papal Bull Dominus ac Redemptor signed by Pope Clement XIV
The National Park Service (holds many interesting Jesuit and Spanish colonial documents)
New Advent.org a Catholic run website, historical data on Jesuit punishments for Indians
Codelco Chile Corporation (a mining company which owns a former Jesuit mine in Chile)
Martin Hunter, former official of the Hudson Bay Company
A candid history of the Jesuits By Joseph McCabe
History of the north Mexican states, Volume 1 By Hubert Howe Bancroft, Henry Lebbeus Oak, Joseph Joshua Peatfield, William Nemos
Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana,Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla
The history of California By Franklin Tuthill, SAN FRANCISCO HH BANCROFT & COMPANY 1866
Ecuador: its ancient and modern history, topography and natural resources ... By Charles Reginald Enock,NEW YORK 1914
History of the Jesuits: from the foundation of their society to ..., Volume 1 By Andrew Steinmetz, pp 421 PHILADELPHIA LEA AND BLANCHARD 1848
"Jesuit Saints and Blesseds" a website OF the Society of Jesus
Mindat.org, an internet database of mines around the world
COUNTY RESOURCE SERIES No 1 SEPT 26 1916 SANTA CRUZ COUNTY ARIZONA THE OLDEST MINING REGION OF RECORD ON THE PACIFIC OF THE UNITED STATES By Allen T Bird University of Arizona
Mission Guevavi excavation by William J. Robinson, published in the KIVA, vol 42, No. 2. 1976
Luz de Tierra Incognita by Spanish Captain Juan Mateo Manje, who accompanied Father Kino on some of his explorations
Jesuit Father and now Saint Eusebio Kino
The Bankers' magazine, and statistical register, Volume 32 Arizona and Silver Mining, George R Gibson April 1878
Reverend Victor B. Stoner's 1937 Thesis, titled "THE SPANISH MISSIONS OF THE SANTA CRUZ VALLEY."
New Handy Atlas By McNally and Co Rand, Rand McNally and Company, Chigaco and New York, 1892
Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the LETTER from THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY by United States Dept of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond, United States Commissioner of Mining Statistics, GEO S BOUTWELL Secretary of the Treasury 1871
Terry's Mexico: handbook for travellers, SONORA NEWS COMPANY Callé de las Estaciones 12 Mexico City Mexico T. Philip Terry, 1911
A letter from Captain Juan Bautista de Anza to Bishop Benito Crespo, January 7, 1737
Modern History being a continuation of the Universal History Volume 39
By George Sale, George Psalmanazar, Archibald Bower, George Shelvocke, John Campbell, John Swinton, London 1763
<There are quite a few more but I think this makes the point>


Do you still hold all of these sources in contempt, as "repeating lies" to make it the truth, based on some "enemies" of the Jesuits? Anyone whom looked at the Jesuits cross-eyed could be interpreted as their "enemy" it seems.


And Joe, despite our having cited all these sources, pointed out the Jesuit precepts against mining and yet it is documented that they had a number of mines and slaves to boot, besides the Royal orders repeatedly attempting to get ALL the religious Orders to stop mining, plus that SOME gold was found hidden in one of the Jesuit missions in Baja after the expulsion, you continue to view all those sources as "a lie repeated often enough to become the truth"?


To me, it appears that you are not just "convinced" of your opinions but have chosen to be blind to any and every thing which is contrary to your belief. Do you not remember that our Jesuits have denied having ANY mines or treasures? There should not be any evidence or record of them, for this to be true. Yet even father Kino hid a treasure during the 1695 uprising, fathers Nentvig and Och describe the impressive "ornaments" including solid silver statues and candelabras etc. We know that the Jesuits had their own fleet of ships, separate from the Papal navy, what were those ships for, if not to carry their rather impressive commerce and bullion?

They say that there is no anti-smoker worse than a reformed EX-smoker, and this parallels our discourse here, for you once did believe that there were Jesuit treasures, though looking in the one area where it is most unlikely (the Superstitions) and came to disbelieve, well at one time I did not believe there were any such treasures OR mines, for I reasoned, how on earth could a MINE be lost, after all? In other words you are the reformed ex-believer, and I am the reformed ex-skeptic, which makes both of us less willing to change position.


The truth is there amigo, those Indians rebelled against their Spanish and Jesuit (and Franciscan) masters repeatedly and for good reason. Indians fled from the missions wholesale in California Alta, under the rule of the good Franciscan padres, and had to be rounded up and brought back as virtual prisoners in their own villages. The missions had to be self supporting - they HAD to make a profit, and the Jesuits were very energetic at finding ways for "their" Indians to be self supporting, with the padres holding the cash register of course, and set their Indians to work at plowing, planting, raising livestock, and mining - no possible source of earning income was ruled out, for anything from mining salt to trapping furs in the north country was fair game.


I know we have reached the point where we are repeating things, which I admit to, which is easier than trying to find the old post and then post a link to it, and it is done to raise points and not simply for repetition; we are actually no where near the end of the available evidence concerning Jesuit mines and treasures, however when EVERY source provided, including Jesuit and Catholic studies is treated as if it were a pack of lies made up by treasure authors, I wonder if there is any reason to continue with this. I have some info which I believe would be very convincing to anyone whom might see it, but I will not post it nor share it as I intend to act upon this myself.

Those treasure stories which you 'sneer' at, did not grow out of the air, in most cases such stories are based on facts. Details got garbled, sometimes exaggerated, but originated in real events and places. Otherwise where are the massive, impressive solid silver altar and ornaments of San Xavier del Bac, or those solid silver statues at EVERY dependent mission (aka visita) which have never been found?


Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone, and I can agree with you that there are almost certainly no lost Jesuit treasures or mines in the Superstition mountians. I won't say absolutely no chance of it, because of a particularly grey episode of Jesuit history, namely their attempt to convert and reduce the Apaches, which failed twice. We know some details on the second failed attempt, but almost nothing on the first, only the name of the priest. I hope you find the treasures that you seek.


Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

That wasn't the question. The question was why they used two ecclesiastical precepts, both forty years apart, to address the issue of Jesuits being involved with mining if, as you say, it was not such a big issue (.e.g, a "very few mines")?

deducer,

I take it you have no idea why there were two precepts. Since it seems like something that you have given a lot of thought to, I decided to open the books where I thought the answer might be. Had luck with the first one.

The first precepts, they were a whole set of rules, were deemed to be impractical......among other problems, so many of the precepts were suppressed. This took place around 1737. There insued a period of confusion as to what was and what wasn't allowed.

Father Provincial Andres Xavier Garcia issued the second set of precepts and they were promulgated on June 23, 1747.

I hope that answers your question.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I take it you have no idea why there were two precepts. Since it seems like something that you have given a lot of thought to, I decided to open the books where I thought the answer might be. Had luck with the first one.

The first precepts, they were a whole set of rules, were deemed to be impractical......among other problems, so many of the precepts were suppressed. This took place around 1737. There insued a period of confusion as to what was and what wasn't allowed.

Father Provincial Andres Xavier Garcia issued the second set of precepts and they were promulgated on June 23, 1747.

I hope that answers your question.

Joe Ribaudo

One more time:

The question has nothing to do with the precepts themselves, but with why they even mention mining. Why did the subject of Jesuit association with mining come up on, not on one but two precepts?

Surely the Fathers had much more important matters to address with their precepts than "a very few mines"?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Err don Jose de La Cactus: What about this Whjite Elephant thing that I have been sitting on ?? Don Jose de La Mancha, El coffee hound from Tayopa.

 

[cactusjumper]

One more time: The question has nothing to do with the precepts themselves, but with why they even mention mining. Why did the subject of Jesuit association with mining come up on, not on one but two precepts? Surely the Fathers had much more important matters to address with their precepts than "a very few mines"?

deducer,

Once again...........The first precepts were found to be lacking in clarity and impractical. They were voided and the Order did without those rules for around ten years. At that point they issued a new SET of precepts which included the prohibition against mining, gambling.......etc.

If you still don't understand, please get someone else to explain it. I'm done......

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

I have tried to point out that most modern historians, and ancient as well, are NOT interested in what any religious Order might have been doing to make money at their proselytizing missions or colonies. Historians are concerned with the facts of history, and such topics as we are discussing are very much anathema.

To this list, we also add archaeologists, anthropologists, archivists, et al.

I don't think it's possible to overrate the importance of this statement in answering the question of why such topics as Jesuit mining or Jesuit trafficking in 'treasure,' should be so ignored in academic and related circles. There is a knee-jerk reaction from those entities in regard to such things, and especially towards TH's, and rightfully so, as TH'ers are way more often than not interested in treasure than the preservation of history, and will think nothing of destroying the latter to gain the former.

As I am far more interested in solving the mystery of the Stone Maps and finding the history behind its devise and construction, I can completely identify with this attitude.

We should be so thankful that the individual who is very close to the end of the trail chose to treat his discovery in an ethical way, and has proceeded with his investigations in a careful, and methodical fashion.

 

[cactusjumper]

To this list, we also add archaeologists, anthropologists, archivists, et al. I don't think it's possible to overrate the importance of this statement in answering the question of why such topics as Jesuit mining or Jesuit trafficking in 'treasure,' should be so ignored in academic and related circles. There is a knee-jerk reaction from those entities in regard to such things, and especially towards TH's, and rightfully so, as TH'ers are way more often than not interested in treasure than the preservation of history, and will think nothing of destroying the latter to gain the former. As I am far more interested in solving the mystery of the Stone Maps and finding the history behind its devise and construction, I can completely identify with this attitude. We should be so thankful that the individual who is very close to the end of the trail chose to treat his discovery in an ethical way, and has proceeded with his investigations in a careful, and methodical fashion.

deducer,

That sounds, very much, like a personal opinion to me. Do you have a reliable source to back up that opinion?

As for the Stone Maps, almost every person who is "very close to the end of the trail" and posting in the subject, has a different start and end of the Stone Map Trail.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

Since you are "far more interested" in the Stone Maps, you would be well off to visit Garry's site.

The Peralta Stone Maps

You may/probably have already been there, but it's the best source available for the truth of the matter.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Once again...........The first precepts were found to be lacking in clarity and impractical. They were voided and the Order did without those rules for around ten years. At that point they issued a new SET of precepts which included the prohibition against mining, gambling.......etc.

If you still don't understand, please get someone else to explain it. I'm done......

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

I don't think I am the one being obstinate here.

First, we have the agreement with Spain that Jesuits may participate in the New World on the condition they do not mine. Then we have the two precepts in which not only is mining itself outlawed, but any knowledge of it, thereof, and the second precept was a lot more specific than the first. Why the continued emphasis on no-mining?

Contrast this to, for example, the fact that Friars are presumably prohibited from "going native" or do such things as take in an Indian bride or mistress. Yet we don't see that being mentioned in the ecclesiastical precepts. Why? Probably because it most likely wasn't seen as being such a widespread problem as being associated with mining was.

 

[deducer]

That sounds, very much, like a personal opinion to me. Do you have a reliable source to back up that opinion?

No need to be difficult. You know as well as anyone that those type of people are heavily prejudiced against the TH community. Father Polzer, as an historian, is a good example. Source: In the August 1962 edition of DESERT, he excoriates the idea of there being Jesuit treasure, but does not do so in a scientific fashion.

As for the Stone Maps, almost every person who is "very close to the end of the trail" and posting in the subject, has a different start and end of the Stone Map Trail.

Many claim to have found the end of the trail, including you, but insufficient evidence, visual or otherwise, has been presented to support their arguments or yours, except in one case.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Since you are "far more interested" in the Stone Maps, you would be well off to visit Garry's site.

The Peralta Stone Maps

You may/probably have already been there, but it's the best source available for the truth of the matter.

Joe Ribaudo

I agree that this site is the best resource for those interested the history of the Stone Maps between 1949 and now.