JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Springfield]

...The Spanish military in Mexico was far from "capable" - their efforts to chastise the Apaches stand in bold relief of their incapabilities. The strength of Spanish forces garrisoning the frontier areas was amazingly small, almost ridiculous. These garrisons rarely ventured out of their forts, meaning that any enforcement of Royal authority was extremely limited. We can point to documented examples of complaints about how the Royal authorities were being blatantly ignored, openly, as happened in New Mexico (trading with the enemy French) or California (trading with the Russians, also illegal).

The point is that the presidios existed and were located within range of alleged Jesuit mines. You can claim the soldiers were 'incapable' because they couldn't control the Apache, but would you also say the US Army was 'incapable' during the latter part of the 19th century? Regardless, it's a moot point to the argument at hand.

... the Jesuits openly owned mines as documented in the Catholic study, and these mines were not appropriated by the Spanish until after the Jesuits were expelled. Also we have the example of the Planchas de Plata, where the Spanish authorities DID step in, and dashed the hopes of the Jesuits.

Thank you for supporting my concerns Oro. Planchas de Plata was seized by the Spanish authorities because the site was classified as a 'treasure trove', not a mining property. It was obviously very valuable, and was seized. As you pointed out, the nearby southern AZ mines were not taken over by Spanish entrepreneurs after the Jesuits vacated the premises. Why? Apparently they were not of sufficient quality - much better opportunities existed in Mexico. My concerns all along have merely been that the popular rumors of Jesuit caches in AZ have likely been vastly exaggerated.

... many of these mines in Pimeria Alta were illegal and kept secret ...

Don't you mean 'openly owned', and not 'secret'?

 

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[Oroblanco]

The point is that the presidios existed and were located within range of alleged Jesuit mines. You can claim the soldiers were 'incapable' because they couldn't control the Apache, but would you also say the US Army was 'incapable' during the latter part of the 19th century? Regardless, it's a moot point to the argument at hand.



Thank you for supporting my concerns Oro. Planchas de Plata was seized by the Spanish authorities because the site was classified as a 'treasure trove', not a mining property. It was obviously very valuable, and was seized. As you pointed out, the nearby southern AZ mines were not taken over by Spanish entrepreneurs after the Jesuits vacated the premises. Why? Apparently they were not of sufficient quality - much better opportunities existed in Mexico. My concerns all along have merely been that the popular rumors of Jesuit caches in AZ have likely been vastly exaggerated.



Don't you mean 'openly owned', and not 'secret'?

First point - have to disagree, respectfully, that the lost mines are "exaggerated" - for how exaggerated would you say the Vekol mine was, or the Salero or Wandering Jew? I have no argument that exaggerations creep into lost treasure/mine stories, sometimes innocently, the mines worked by early Jesuits and Spaniards had to be considerably richer (ore) than what later, or modern Anglos are happy with. Partly this is due to cruder methods available of course.

Second point no, I don't mean openly owned and not secret. The Jesuit Order DID own some mines openly and operated them, always with an excuse to dodge the laws, (it belongs to a college, it was left to them by a Spaniard etc) but these referred to in Pimeria Alta were apparently only vaguely known about to the royal authorities. The Planchas de Plata example too - was ruled NOT to be royal property by my sources, and ordered returned to the Spanish colonists that rushed in on news of the discovery.

It is not a case of black and white. Some mines were openly owned and operated, just not mentioned in their "official" publications, while others were worked surreptitiously, apparently with an eye to avoid another incident like the Planchas de Plata where the deposit ended up in the hands of Spanish colonists and not the padres. Isn't it funny that father Polzer never mentioned the mines listed in the Wealth of the Jesuits, nor did Nentvig.

As to the capabilities of the Spanish frontier forces, they were hardly able to keep the Pimas under control, and could not control the Seris, Yaquis, or Apaches. I doubt very highly that they were out probing around looking for what ever activities the padres and their sidekick Coadjutors were doing.

Born o fire - "twisted minds"? Sheesh!

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

First point - have to disagree, respectfully, that the lost mines are "exaggerated" - for how exaggerated would you say the Vekol mine was, or the Salero or Wandering Jew? I have no argument that exaggerations creep into lost treasure/mine stories, sometimes innocently, the mines worked by early Jesuits and Spaniards had to be considerably richer (ore) than what later, or modern Anglos are happy with. Partly this is due to cruder methods available of course.

Well, since you frequently cite the Vekol Mine, I needed to satisfy my curiosity of it's history. I've found a number of references confirming that the Pimas took Walker to the future mine site. I say 'future' because Walker was shown a rich silver-bearing outcropping, not an old mine. I avoided treasure hunting websites in lieu of mining journals, historic accounts and resource reports. The Vekol discovery point was a 'geologic anomaly. Interestingly, reports of 'Spanish prospectors' were frequent in the early 1800's in southern AZ. No mention of Jesuits connected to the Vekol. Maybe you have some other documentation.

The Salero was acknowledged by mindat.org and Arizona Bureau of Mines to have had Jesuit origins, who worked it originally, followed by Mexicans, then Americans. Total output from the discovery point, up to 1900, was estimated to be 500 tons @24 oz/ton silver.

The Arizona Bureau of Mines also tags the Wandering Jew Mine as having Jesuit origins. Discovery of the workings were made by Anglos who found trenching containing lead and copper workings.

OK - no great shakes here. The Vekol Mine became a big silver producer for Walker and others after 1880, but they apparently started on undeveloped ground. The Salero and Wandering Jew Mines, very likely of Jesuit origin, became included with larger claim groups developed by Anglos, but the original workings were modest at best. I didn't take a lot of time on this, but the indications are clear enough.

... Isn't it funny that father Polzer never mentioned the mines listed in the Wealth of the Jesuits, nor did Nentvig.

The remarks by Jesuit apologists are to be expected.

As to the capabilities of the Spanish frontier forces, they were hardly able to keep the Pimas under control, and could not control the Seris, Yaquis, or Apaches. I doubt very highly that they were out probing around looking for what ever activities the padres and their sidekick Coadjutors were doing.

Your doubts are purely speculative. We know there was a Spanish garrison in Tubac beginning in 1752. If the Jesuit mines hadn't already been abandoned by then, it would be hard to believe the Spanish were unaware of them.

 

[Oroblanco]

Well, since you frequently cite the Vekol Mine, I needed to satisfy my curiosity of it's history. I've found a number of references confirming that the Pimas took Walker to the future mine site. I say 'future' because Walker was shown a rich silver-bearing outcropping, not an old mine. I avoided treasure hunting websites in lieu of mining journals, historic accounts and resource reports. The Vekol discovery point was a 'geologic anomaly. Interestingly, reports of 'Spanish prospectors' were frequent in the early 1800's in southern AZ. No mention of Jesuits connected to the Vekol. Maybe you have some other documentation.

I do.

Springfield also wrote

The Salero was acknowledged by mindat.org and Arizona Bureau of Mines to have had Jesuit origins, who worked it originally, followed by Mexicans, then Americans. Total output from the discovery point, up to 1900, was estimated to be 500 tons @24 oz/ton silver.

The Arizona Bureau of Mines also tags the Wandering Jew Mine as having Jesuit origins. Discovery of the workings were made by Anglos who found trenching containing lead and copper workings.

OK - no great shakes here. The Vekol Mine became a big silver producer for Walker and others after 1880, but they apparently started on undeveloped ground. The Salero and Wandering Jew Mines, very likely of Jesuit origin, became included with larger claim groups developed by Anglos, but the original workings were modest at best. I didn't take a lot of time on this, but the indications are clear enough.

So let me see these "exaggerations" you have so frequently cited? Many prospectors would be very pleased to find a vein having 24 ounces of silver per ton.

Here is one source on the Vekol being a real "Indian mine"

A GENUINE INDIAN MINE Of romantic history is the old Vekol mine thirty miles south of Casa Grande once a large producer of silver and lead It was an Indian mine one of the few of the many such reported that proved to have real existence Its secret was given about forty years ago by Pima Indians to John D Walker Walker who rather prided himself that in his blood was a strain of Wyandotte Indian had lived with the Pimas for years and had secured their confidence both by his generosity and the fact that he had married into the tribe The Indians brought in specimens of ore which he had assayed finding that they contained several thousand ounces of silver to the ton He passed on the secret to his friend Peter R Brady but the Indians refused to show the mine if he was accompanied by anyone save his brother Lucien The locators went out at night but Brady followed on the trail in the morning reaching the Vekol ground while Walker was putting up his monuments and was welcomed as a third partner The ore outcrop from which the Indians had taken their specimens was worked out within a day but Lucien Walker stayed with the mine and sunk a deeper shaft on the spot from which the specimens had come Following a talc seam not thicker than a knife blade after three weeks labor he found a large chamber of rich ore and by the same method of following the seam other and larger lenses were discovered some of them containing phenomenally rich ore In gratitude to the Indians only Pimas and Papagos were employed underground where the workings were of the crudest sort running irregularly as the seams were drifted upon An offer of $200,000 was made for the property and refused by the Walkers who thereafter paid Brady $65,000 for his third interest It is told that they made the payment from the proceeds of ten carloads of ore they already had available for shipment The fortunes created were the cause of a number of bitter lawsuits that originated in Los Angeles around the claims of John D Walker's Indian daughter

Arizona, Prehistoric, Aboriginal, Pioneer, Modern: The Nation's ..., Volume 2, James H. McClintock, pp 414





Springfield also wrote:

Your doubts are purely speculative. We know there was a Spanish garrison in Tubac beginning in 1752. If the Jesuit mines hadn't already been abandoned by then, it would be hard to believe the Spanish were unaware of them.

Have to keep disagreeing with you, starting to wonder what you will say if I say that the Earth rotates.

The recorded performance of the Spanish frontier army is what I am basing my doubts on. Read through Rudo Ensayo, written by a Jesuit and take note of how many ranches, farms, and mines have had to be abandoned due to the inability of the Spanish forces to repel and resist the hostile Indians. The Spanish did not stop at having a Presidio at Tubac, they added one in Terrenate which only lasted a few years before having to be abandoned due to heavy losses to the Apaches; even the presidio of Tubac was moved to Tucson, and even this was once attacked "en force" by Apaches and Navajos. The record of Spanish colonization from 1847 back to 1767 is mainly one of retreat and abandonment in Arizona and Sonora. The Spanish were barely able to hold on to their frontier in Arizona for decades. Not speculation on my part. Considering that most of these Spanish forts had a garrison of forty men or LESS, often with not all the men even having firearms or horses, to patrol and police a rather vast area, I cannot picture them as having a tight control on the activities of the padres or frienreferrdly Indians, when they had to be on constant watch against surprise by hostile tribes, or were out on campaign in the field against the same.

You are certainly free and welcome to your own opinions and conclusions Springfield, being myself one of those "gullible masses" you have also frequently referred to, perhaps I am completely wrong, and there never were any lost mines, treasures or even Jesuits at all.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

OK, Oro, for the record, I acknowledge that you are a true believer in the Jesuit mines, and apparently in the 'vast hoards' of precious metals still hidden all over AZ, and probably always will be. You and Mike have made a strong argument revealing the existence of Jesuit mining in the New World, for which you deserve credit. Unfortunately, that work is not significantly site-specific to AZ, and the scant evidence we can judge only modestly supports your universal premise. I fear the numerous treasure magazine and newspaper adventure stories about AZ Jesuit treasure may have clouded your judgement.

Yes, the evidence shows the Jesuits operated, apparently on a modest scale, some silver prospects in southern AZ. And, yes, the Salero, is your strongest proof so far. This site was worked out after 500 tons of rock was removed, mostly by Mexicans and Americans. I don't calculate a 'vast hoard' Jesuit cache coming from this particular hole.

As your McClintock memoir on the Vekol confirms, the rich outcrop the Indians showed Walker very quickly played out -one day - after the samples were removed. It wasn't a 'mine' than can be linked in any way to the Jesuits, except by speculation. One thing's for sure - Walker was shown a prospect, not a mine.

The Wandering Jew was obviously just a prospect that showed only galena and a little copper, and was quit on by the brothers.

This is all the evidence you've presented so far. There may be other Jesuit mines in the area - maybe some are 'fabulously rich' - but, other than in the mostly-manufactured treasure legends, we can't comment because we don't know where they are. Modern AZ mining districts were able to prosper on the bones of the known earlier Jesuit workings - why not the 'fabulously rich, still-hidden' ones? The legends are impressive - but what about their provenance?

To satisfy your curiosity: I would be surprised if you claimed the 'earth rotates', because so far, your stance seems to be, 'the sun moves back and forth'. I can certainly identify with your enthusiasm, as I also suffer from the treasure disease. It ate me up for decades. I guess the difference between us is that I prefer to be standing on firmer ground before I go all in.

 

[gollum]

.................... and like so many others:

"It ate me up for decades ....................... (IMW) and if I couldn't find it, it must not exist!"

I don't know how much is still left out there. I know some of the things that HAVE been found. They directly contradict everything the Jesuits have told us about their colonial wealth. If you read the Jesuit Fathers' Journals, you will see what they describe as being possessed by the Church:

I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service............"
Father Joseph Och SJ "Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

Father Johann Nentvig SJ "Rudo Ensayo"

Col. Poston, in his work on Arizona, quotes the Jesuit records wherein is given a description of the location of their property. It states that standing in the church and looking through the east door towards the mountains, about ten miles distant is seen a sharp picacho or pinnacle, and that near that are the mines worked by the priests. Standing in the old ruined church today and looking through the east door, there is discovered the pinnacle described in the record, and it is the highest point on the ridge through which runs the “Wandering Jew” ledge. The work we uncovered we believe to be a part of that done by the Jesuits. And somewhere in that hill are doubtless deeper and more extensive working, co-temporary and covered in the same way.................................................... The Tumacacori priests are said to have left records to show that they operated mines in the Santa Rita mountains and shipped the bullion.

Where the records are today no one knows, BUUUUT...... Colonel Poston MUST have had them, because he used them to find the "Wandering Jew Mine."

From The Canadian Law Journal:



Chuck Kenworthy found 1028 of these! Over a ton of silver just West of the 19 between Tucson and Nogales:



Who but the Jesuits would smelt over a ton of silver bars to remember a Jesuit Priest that was martyred in the Pima Uprising of 1695?

JUST ONE small cache of 82 pounds of gold bars found fairly close to all the silver bars above (cross and "V" the Jesuit Sigla):



Willie Daughitt, who in about 1928 (along with his partner Buster Ward) found a cave in Southern New Mexico. In this cave were a couple of thousand gold bars with some other things, as well as a map that showed the cache was Jesuit. After being kidnapped and tortured twice, Willie took all the gold he could, and moved to San Diego, where he changed his name to Lawrence Foreman. He lived there from the early thirties until 1989. He paid for surgery to remove a brain tumor out of his pocket. When he died in 1989, his estate was valued at approximately $3.5 million. He is buried today at Forest Lawn Cemetery in Glendale, Ca (about three blocks from my old job).



Those are what I can disclose. I know of a few others directly related to the Order that I still can't mention.

So Springy,

Say what you will regarding Jesuit Wealth. There are some of us that KNOW better. Not hope, not believe, not have faith, but KNOW! Because in the decades that it "ate you up" and you didn't find anything, don't think it doesn't exist.

Best - Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Warning - extra coffee alert!

Hola amigos - this is another very long winded reply, feel free to just skip it, most of it is in response to Springfield, otherwise I ask your indulgence and thank you in advance.

Mike I see that you already posted an interesting reply while I was typing this - and I would only add that these treasures FOUND, are in my opinion fortunes, for some people this may not be a "fabulously rich" treasure, and in this aspect of how the treasure stories are PERCEIVED by the readers is one of the problems we have in our discussion. I would not turn up my nose at a mere 82 pounds of gold, but for some people this is proof that all the treasure stories are "highly exaggerated" for the treasure would have to be far larger than this to qualify in their eyes .

Springfield wrote

OK, Oro, for the record, I acknowledge that you are a true believer in the Jesuit mines, and apparently in the 'vast hoards' of precious metals still hidden all over AZ, and probably always will be.

I don't know why you seem to see this in black and white, so to speak. I do not believe there are 'VAST" hoards of precious metals hidden "all over" Arizona. I do not know why the case has to be seen in that set of terms. The evidence, such as it is, points to some caches of bullion, more than a few candlesticks and crosses, possibly even tons of silver and hundreds of pounds of gold but not so vast and certainly NOT hidden "all over Arizona" by any stretch of the imagination. In some cases the treasure was in reality of Franciscan origins, as at Bicuner, and there is evidence that this was already discovered and removed. To give an example of what size treasure the evidence supports in my opinion, the massive silver altar and objects of San Xavier del Bac, was estimated at some $20,000 worth circa 1800, which today would be twenty times that value. To ME, that is quite a fortune, but hardly would class as a "vast hoard" on the scale of the Atocha treasure. For some folks, $400k is peanuts.

Springfield also wrote

I fear the numerous treasure magazine and newspaper adventure stories about AZ Jesuit treasure may have clouded your judgement.

That is certainly possible. More on this in a moment.

Springfield also wrote

As your McClintock memoir on the Vekol confirms, the rich outcrop the Indians showed Walker very quickly played out -one day - after the samples were removed. It wasn't a 'mine' than can be linked in any way to the Jesuits, except by speculation. One thing's for sure - Walker was shown a prospect, not a mine.

I have another report of this discovery, dating earlier in time than McClintock whom wrote his history from memory, which includes the fact that there was a large pile of the silver ore already extracted on the site of the vein. This pile of already mined out ore had to result from mining activity. Did you also note that the ore McClintock mentioned was very rich? The original vein played out quickly but further development found much more silver in the hill, hence the many tunnels and shafts dug.

Springfield also wrote

The Wandering Jew was obviously just a prospect that showed only galena and a little copper, and was quit on by the brothers.

I have another source which states the Wandering Jew was found with a sizable trench already dug in the vein, and already very old, showing that the padres had been mining it. Not "just a prospect".

Springfield also wrote

This is all the evidence you've presented so far. There may be other Jesuit mines in the area - maybe some are 'fabulously rich' - but, other than in the mostly-manufactured treasure legends, we can't comment because we don't know where they are. Modern AZ mining districts were able to prosper on the bones of the known earlier Jesuit workings - why not the 'fabulously rich, still-hidden' ones? The legends are impressive - but what about their provenance?

Provenance - for mines which were being operated illicitly. Do you see a problem in that mindset? Do drug smugglers keep paper records of their shipments and who receives them? Even your phrase there, "fabulously rich" is a highly subjective term - for some prospectors, finding a vein with over 20 ounces of silver per ton, would be fabulously rich, for others, this would not even be worth their time to dig it out. So it is quite possible that some or all of the mines worked by padres and Spaniards for that matter, may not amount to "fabulously rich" in your opinion, while to another person it would be. Early treasure hunters DO mention that such incriminating records of illicit mines DID exist at one time, found at old missions and almost certainly removed by the early treasure hunters or possibly simply sold by Franciscan padres of the late 19th century when they were desperate for funds.

Springfield also wrote

To satisfy your curiosity: I would be surprised if you claimed the 'earth rotates', because so far, your stance seems to be, 'the sun moves back and forth'.

Then perhaps the problem is not at this end. I thought the case, presented over several years time now, was not so confusing and contrary as saying the sun moves back and forth.

Springfield also wrote

I can certainly identify with your enthusiasm, as I also suffer from the treasure disease. It ate me up for decades. I guess the difference between us is that I prefer to be standing on firmer ground before I go all in.

This brings us to what may well be the root of the difficulties in our discussion. I am fully aware that the scientific approach to the question is to assume everything is false, until proven true. The most successful treasure hunters have followed a similar, but polar opposite approach, that it is true until proven false. In the case of Jesuit treasures/mines, if it is true that they never had any, then there should not be ANY evidence that there were. This is not the case for there is evidence, despite the modern revisionist historians efforts to whitewash the mission system and period of history. The fact that there is evidence that the padres (and I include the Franciscans and even one Augustinian in AZ, or Franciscans entirely in NM and California) were involved in mining, yet we have virtually no record that they shipped the products of the mining out legally, is the basis for hunting the caches.

Your caution and skepticism are wise and even healthy, some treasure hunters have gone nutty in a belief in some fantasy treasure, and it would be a waste of time to search for a non-existant mine or treasure. On the other hand, we can not expect to have full records of production and exact maps showing how to get to the mines and hidden cache(s) either. Over two centuries have lapsed since the mines of Pimeria Alta were abandoned, some likely concealed by the same Indians that had worked in them making the search for them very difficult. We have only relatively little info, sketchy as some would describe it, and if this is not enough for you to expend your time and treasure in a search, that is your decision. You stand a far better chance of making interest on putting your money in a savings account than in spending it searching for a lost treasure. Chasing down "legends" is after all not a sure way to riches, but for many treasure hunters it is not all about the money anyway. Even Mel Fisher, having found the Atocha and securing wealth, did not then quit searching for yet more.

As to my own judgement being clouded, from reading treasure stories, this is indeed possible; what has tipped the scales in my mind however has been what I have seen with my own eyes, on the ground or to be more accurate, in the ground. It is also possible that your judgement has been clouded in the opposite direction, making you doubt ALL treasure stories, from having not made a discovery or from finding some story (or stories) to be false and erroneous. Nothing will sour a person from being a treasure hunter faster than finding nothing, or that the source you trusted was nothing but a liar.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield, I won't bore you further on this topic as I do realize we have different philosophies about the very basis of this. I hope you and everyone reading this, find the treasures that you seek.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning gentlemen: We all need hot coffee to cool off. , two are for me, a genuine coffee hound Military's responsibility.

If I remember fairly correctly, most garrisons were supported and paid for by the Jesuit mission that it was protecting, not by the crown. The crown only authorized it. Obvious conclusion, one doesn't chomp the hand that is feeding it.

Another problem is that on both sides in general, it was just a few men tracking each other over a region that is infamous for being extremely rough. Of course we mustn't forget a few sticky fingered individuals that thought that it would nice to take their share of mining proceeds as they passed by, both on land and sea.

Many mines turned to the sea to transport their proceeds due to the numerous bandit teams and lack of good patrolled roads, only to find that they were subject to far more piracy than ever existed in the Caribbean.

For those that haven't been exposed to the north western Mexican barrancas, one might equate it to a continuous series of Grand canyons of a slightly lesser size.

Remember, much of the land we are talking about is extremely rough, not effectively flat land such as around Tucson, Nogales, the Bradshaws, most of the Superstitions, or the frontier.,

Also, do not confuse conditions in the early times with the later 1800's, they were vastly different..Which included the system of mining basically without iron tools, just rock, fire, and expendable Indians..

A mine worked in this manner of necessity was of limited size (portal). They only moved as much rock as was absolutely necessary to recover the richer ore, no thought was given to the Conscripted Indian labor - one died, go round up another. Many times they even had to feed themselves. As a result, many mines that today we would consider a Bonanza were abandoned in just a few hundred feet.These shafts soon flled with rubble, water, or lose rock over the centuries and today it is a question of which, if any, of the oriignal holes we consider as a prospect holes contained a bonanza below without removing the materiel - this would soon bankrupt a mining co of the 1800's or even today, so many of these filled in supposed prospect holes may just be the one of fame. In this case it is very problematic that it would have properly filed upon.

Because of this lack of legally filing on a mine that may be in the middle of hostile country can be expected = just get in there and work it down to max working depth and get out alive with your proceeds.

The Jesuits always needing money on the frontier, were not above doing the same thing --


Don jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

... So Springy,

Say what you will regarding Jesuit Wealth. There are some of us that KNOW better. Not hope, not believe, not have faith, but KNOW! Because in the decades that it "ate you up" and you didn't find anything, don't think it doesn't exist.

Best - Mike

Treasure caches exist on a level you may not realize; if you did, you'd likely re-examine all the dogma and start trying to read between the lines. My above comment referred to the difficulties encountered while verifying first-hand information given by a real-life protagonist. That's one degree of separation - as close to an event as is possible without experiencing it yourself. Delays and missed opportunities are frustrating, yes - they test a person's commitment. But don't worry about me - I'm just fine with those decades. No complaints, no regrets - the best years of my life, so far.

The reasons that prompt me to post on this site are not just to find out what other people believe in the treasure hunting realm, but more importantly: to try to understand why they believe it. Treasure hunting is a lot like religion - you either accept things on faith, or you keep digging for the truth.

I'll restate my opinion re AZ Jesuit mines. I believe their richness's are greatly overstated. You claim to 'know', but human nature tells me that if you did, you wouldn't be posting.

 

[mdog]

Chuck Kenworthy found 1028 of these! Over a ton of silver just West of the 19 between Tucson and Nogales:



Who but the Jesuits would smelt over a ton of silver bars to remember a Jesuit Priest that was martyred in the Pima Uprising of 1695?

JUST ONE small cache of 82 pounds of gold bars found fairly close to all the silver bars above (cross and "V" the Jesuit Sigla):


Thanks Mike,

I like to try to figure out why a cache was put at a certain place and where it came from and where it was going. I find it interesting that these two caches were fairly close to each other. If there wasn't a mine at the location, or some type of prominent landmark, I would guess that the location of the caches just north of the Mexican-United States border might have some importance. That area was part of the Gadsden Purchase and the border was established in the 1850's. Here's a link.

Gadsden Purchase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe the southern parts of the present states of New Mexico and Arizona were also claimed by the Confederacy during the Civil War.

My question about the markings on the bars would be, why would the Jesuits feel that they had to mark the bars with something that would call attention to their order.

Maybe the bars were marked to deceive rather than identify. Such markings, that would seem to be dedicated to a martyred priest, could be giving the place of origin and maybe even a destination. Maybe by some group not even associated with the Jesuits.

Rick

 

[Springfield]

Hola amigos - this is another very long winded reply, feel free to just skip it, most of it is in response to Springfield ...

... It is also possible that your judgement has been clouded in the opposite direction, making you doubt ALL treasure stories, from having not made a discovery or from finding some story (or stories) to be false and erroneous...

Oro, you've chosen your signature statement well. I'm not so sure you'd make a very good detective, but I'll bet you'd be a top-drawer defense attorney. This will mark the end of our debate re the AZ Jesuits. You've drawn your line in the sand and I remain open-minded, but not convinced. You're out of ammo and I''m still standing. Nowhere else to go from here.

Actually, I would describe my judgement as having been cleared, not clouded. Yes, most treasure stories are false and erroneous. This is not only a fact, IMO, but also a liberating discovery because it opens a path for the tenacious to pursue the truth of 'lost mines and buried treasures', which is quite an extraordinary story. But that's another story for another time, maybe around a campfire some time.

 

[gollum]

Spring,

Look carefully at the bar. See the cross over the letter "M"? Don't the dots on both sides make the thing look like a grave?

While I have never seen it in writing, or anywhere else, our best guess as to what it means is that when Father Saeta was murdered by the Pimas in 1695, they took all the gold and silver from the Caborca Mission, melted it down into bars, and gave it back to God. In 1695, the area these two caches were found was on the far North End of the Jesuit Frontier. Padre Kino would not establish Tubac, Tumacacori, and San Javier del Bac for a few more years. We are calling it a "MARTYR" Cache. That is what we believe the Cross over the "M" means (Martyr). It is my belief that none of those bars were ever meant to be recovered. As they were stained with the blood of a martyr, they were put back in the ground from whence they came.

I doubt that one thousand and twenty-eight bars would be made to deceive. I believe it was a tribute to a man that gave his life for the Order.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Spring,

Look carefully at the bar. See the cross over the letter "M"? Don't the dots on both sides make the thing look like a grave?

While I have never seen it in writing, or anywhere else, our best guess as to what it means is that when Father Saeta was murdered by the Pimas in 1695, they took all the gold and silver from the Caborca Mission, melted it down into bars, and gave it back to God. In 1695, the area these two caches were found was on the far North End of the Jesuit Frontier. Padre Kino would not establish Tubac, Tumacacori, and San Javier del Bac for a few more years. We are calling it a "MARTYR" Cache. That is what we believe the Cross over the "M" means (Martyr). It is my belief that none of those bars were ever meant to be recovered. As they were stained with the blood of a martyr, they were put back in the ground from whence they came.

I doubt that one thousand and twenty-eight bars would be made to deceive. I believe it was a tribute to a man that gave his life for the Order.

Mike

[For the record, you are answering mdog's post, and I presume he'll respond]

Mike, that's an interesting speculation. You are obviously well-informed about these silver bars. As one who is not, out of curiosity, I would ask a few questions in order to better understand. Was it a Jesuit tradition to honor martyrs with silver and/or gold symbolically returned to the earth? It seems out of character that the brothers would work their miners so hard to accumulate the metal - presumably for the benefit of either the flock or the Order, or both - then rid themselves of it. Were Father Saeta's remains found with the silver bars? if not, have you determined why the cache site was chosen?

Kenworthy. It's my unproven opinion that he was in the business of creating legends. Most people consider him a sort of demigod. So be it. The obvious red flag with this silver bar event is this: if the Jesuits or their agents were not capable of recovering this cache, how did Kenworthy happen to obtain the necessary information to do so? One possible explanation is obvious of course. Maybe these silver bars and the marks on them - even the number of them recovered and the place they were found - are providing information other than a tribute to a fallen padre.

 

[gollum]

[For the record, you are answering mdog's post, and I presume he'll respond] Mike, that's an interesting speculation. You are obviously well-informed about these silver bars. As one who is not, out of curiosity, I would ask a few questions in order to better understand. Was it a Jesuit tradition to honor martyrs with silver and/or gold symbolically returned to the earth? It seems out of character that the brothers would work their miners so hard to accumulate the metal - presumably for the benefit of either the flock or the Order, or both - then rid themselves of it. Were Father Saeta's remains found with the silver bars? if not, have you determined why the cache site was chosen? Kenworthy. It's my unproven opinion that he was in the business of creating legends. Most people consider him a sort of demigod. So be it. The obvious red flag with this silver bar event is this: if the Jesuits or their agents were not capable of recovering this cache, how did Kenworthy happen to obtain the necessary information to do so? One possible explanation is obvious of course. Maybe these silver bars and the marks on them - even the number of them recovered and the place they were found - are providing information other than a tribute to a fallen padre.

Chuck Kenworthy was far from a demigod. Just a wealthy guy that had his own issues. Like I stated, "I have never seen it in writing or anywhere else." What I stated is my own (and a couple of others) best guess based on the markings on the bars. The silver may or may not be related to the gold bars (their proximity to each other is pretty coincidental though).



If you are hinting at the possibility that these are KGC Caches, I highly doubt it. I think they are just what they look like.



As to why the Jesuits would throw away all that silver and gold, I don't know. Superstitious/very religious people can do things that seem odd to others. The same way they could rationalize the owning of slaves. The Order was the largest owner of slaves in the New World. I can only make deductions based on the evidence in front of me.



Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote

If I remember fairly correctly, most garrisons were supported and paid for by the Jesuit mission that it was protecting, not by the crown. The crown only authorized it. Obvious conclusion, one doesn't chomp the hand that is feeding it.

You are correct in that the padres were also the paymasters for the soldiers assigned to protect the various missions, however the funds came from the royal treasury. The Order did not provide the money itself, only doled it out.

Springfield wrote

Oro, you've chosen your signature statement well. I'm not so sure you'd make a very good detective, but I'll bet you'd be a top-drawer defense attorney. This will mark the end of our debate re the AZ Jesuits. You've drawn your line in the sand and I remain open-minded, but not convinced. You're out of ammo and I''m still standing. Nowhere else to go from here.

Actually I am far from "out of ammo" as in information and source materials, just out of patience. More on this in a moment.

Springfield also wrote

Actually, I would describe my judgement as having been cleared, not clouded. Yes, most treasure stories are false and erroneous. This is not only a fact, IMO, but also a liberating discovery because it opens a path for the tenacious to pursue the truth of 'lost mines and buried treasures', which is quite an extraordinary story. But that's another story for another time, maybe around a campfire some time.

I remain respectfully in disagreement on your position about most treasure stories being false and erroneous. Clearly, most if not all, have some error or flaw in them which is helping to keep the mine/treasure lost, however if you look into them, you will find that the majority, from what I can see most of them in fact are based on real events and places. The stories did not come from thin air.

There are more lost American mines than Jesuit - and there is little difference between a mien lost by an Anglo prospector in 1880 than one abandoned in 1767, other than age. Some lost mines have been found, proving that not all stories of lost mines are fictional. The fact that so many remain lost, does not prove they do not exist. But I fear that we are beating the proverbial dead horse - we have been over this topic for years now, you remain un-convinced, (as do, I am sure, many others) despite many pages and having typed in thousands upon thousands of words, not to mention hunting up, in some cases scanning, and posting the documents to back up points. The subject is certainly interesting to me, but the time required to do justice is a problem, and we are clearly getting nowhere.

So I must now ask you, having made the statement that MOST treasure stories are false and erroneous, please post three examples of treasure stories proven to be false and erroneous. Thank you in advance.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS - as to my abilities as a detective, while employed with the VA dept of corrections, not to brag, but I was having such good luck in finding the hidden contraband that I was asked for and sent to almost every prison in the state, to execute searches. I found more weapons, drugs, money and jailhouse hooch than any other officer, at least that is what I was told. Now wish I had asked to keep two of the items I found, one was a very neat little homemade gun, and another was the neatest little still, so well made it looked like a factory model, probably did not produce more than a cup of distillate per batch. All of which doesn't mean much to prove anything for being a detective of course, but remember we were able to dig up solid proof that the Jesuits factually owned mines, when their own historian father Polzer and many other modern historians, including the much vaunted Bancroft, failed.

 

[mdog]

Spring,

Look carefully at the bar. See the cross over the letter "M"? Don't the dots on both sides make the thing look like a grave?

While I have never seen it in writing, or anywhere else, our best guess as to what it means is that when Father Saeta was murdered by the Pimas in 1695, they took all the gold and silver from the Caborca Mission, melted it down into bars, and gave it back to God. In 1695, the area these two caches were found was on the far North End of the Jesuit Frontier. Padre Kino would not establish Tubac, Tumacacori, and San Javier del Bac for a few more years. We are calling it a "MARTYR" Cache. That is what we believe the Cross over the "M" means (Martyr). It is my belief that none of those bars were ever meant to be recovered. As they were stained with the blood of a martyr, they were put back in the ground from whence they came.

I doubt that one thousand and twenty-eight bars would be made to deceive. I believe it was a tribute to a man that gave his life for the Order.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

I would be skeptical about any religious order hiding, forever, large amounts of bullion to honor a martyr, however, it could have happened. Also Padre Saeta was killed at the Caborca Mission which was 80 some miles to the southwest, why would they move so much bullion over unfriendly terrain to bury it as a memorial that nobody would ever see. It seems a martyr would be honored with a statue or a plaque so that everybody would know of his accomplishments. However, if all the bars of silver are stamped with his name, it could be that Caborca was where the silver originated, like you said.


If, as I suggest, the bullion was being transported from one place to another during the late 17th century, where would it be going if it was coming from Caborca? I've read Kenworthy's books and he wrote about following monuments and carved signs to treasure sites. It would be good to know how he came to this site and, if he was following monuments, from what direction did he come?

1695 could represent a date but maybe not the date the bars were stamped.

I offer these opinions and questions with all respect due to those who have spent years doing the research and walking the trails.

Rick

 

[cactusjumper]

Rick,

I don't think many people who were shown these monuments, could actually see them the same way that Kenworthy saw them. From the CD I saw of him giving a talk on his conclusions on the Stone Maps, I would say a fair statement would be that he even confused himself.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[txtea]

Spring,

Look carefully at the bar. See the cross over the letter "M"? Don't the dots on both sides make the thing look like a grave?

While I have never seen it in writing, or anywhere else, our best guess as to what it means is that when Father Saeta was murdered by the Pimas in 1695, they took all the gold and silver from the Caborca Mission, melted it down into bars, and gave it back to God. In 1695, the area these two caches were found was on the far North End of the Jesuit Frontier. Padre Kino would not establish Tubac, Tumacacori, and San Javier del Bac for a few more years. We are calling it a "MARTYR" Cache. That is what we believe the Cross over the "M" means (Martyr). It is my belief that none of those bars were ever meant to be recovered. As they were stained with the blood of a martyr, they were put back in the ground from whence they came.

I doubt that one thousand and twenty-eight bars would be made to deceive. I believe it was a tribute to a man that gave his life for the Order.

Mike

Hey Mike..Question for you.
Were the silver bars that Kenworthy found, buried in a similar fashion as the 82 pounds of gold bars? I mean in different deposits in corners that formed a cross? I just wonder if the caches were put there that way so they could locate them easier at a later time, or was the cross pattern part of a tribute to Father Saeta? Can you disclose how far apart these caches were roughly? Thanks in advance.
Dwayne

 

[gollum]

Hey Mike..Question for you.
Were the silver bars that Kenworthy found, buried in a similar fashion as the 82 pounds of gold bars? I mean in different deposits in corners that formed a cross? I just wonder if the caches were put there that way so they could locate them easier at a later time, or was the cross pattern part of a tribute to Father Saeta? Can you disclose how far apart these caches were roughly? Thanks in advance.
Dwayne

Nope. All in one hole. That is why I say they may not be related.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Rick,

I don't think many people who were shown these monuments, could actually see them the same way that Kenworthy saw them. From the CD I saw of him giving a talk on his conclusions on the Stone Maps, I would say a fair statement would be that he even confused himself.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

What monuments are you talking about?

Some people are smarter than heck, but put them in front of a crowd and they look/sound re_tarded. CK was a real estate guy and a treasure hunter. I don't think he ever claimed to be Tony Robbins. LOL

MIke