JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

If the TRUE OWNER is still around, they will get priority

If the true owner is dead, the find usually goes to the finder (as long as the finder is not trespassing).

Some states find that the owner of a treasure trove is the LOCUS OWNER (current property owner).

Things change greatly from one state to another, but what I said is the general consensus.

Best - Mike

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gully, one must remember that we are speaking Of 'Mexican law', you cannot own something that you aquired illegally. Since the mines were not acquired legally they have no owner, except the state / Crown...

Course a few hit men from the Vatican can change one's mind easily. snifff.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Gully, one must remember that we are speaking Of 'Mexican law', you cannot own something that you aquired illegally. Since the mines were not acquired legally they have no owner, except the state / Crown...

Course a few hit men from the Vatican can change one's mind easily. snifff.

Don Jose de La Mancha

That's a toughie. Seems like I read somewhere that land-based treasure trove claims are going to follow the sea-based procedures. As far as the place of discovery is concerned (USA), all claims in that time period are potentially considered 'legal' if a proof of ownership can be provided, since there was no USA and there were no USA mining laws at the time. In today's world, who knows - if the church forgave the Jesuits' past sins and the proper proof was provided, why couldn't they collect the goods? The chain of ownership is probably assured all the way back to the time of mining. When it comes to laws, they can always be changed.

 

[UncleMatt]

I don't think it deserves a whole thread, just a response with a link or two, and perhaps some text. No derail intended.

 

[UncleMatt]

That's a toughie. Seems like I read somewhere that land-based treasure trove claims are going to follow the sea-based procedures. As far as the place of discovery is concerned (USA), all claims in that time period are potentially considered 'legal' if a proof of ownership can be provided, since there was no USA and there were no USA mining laws at the time. In today's world, who knows - if the church forgave the Jesuits' past sins and the proper proof was provided, why couldn't they collect the goods? The chain of ownership is probably assured all the way back to the time of mining. When it comes to laws, they can always be changed.

I have a friend who is meeting with some high end lawyers about this as we speak. He has already met with them a couple of times, and I will try to pick his brain about all these legalities.

 

[mdog]

I don't have anything to offer this thread because I have not studied the Jesuits of New Spain. However, for a time I studied the Jesuits of New France. After awhile, I stopped thinking of them as missionaries, who became involved in questionable activities, and started thinking of them as traders. As traders, they were brilliant.

One thing I noticed about the Jesuits of New France was they pretty much sprinted west as fast as they could go. This seemed odd because there were plenty of Native Americans to be converted in Canada and in the area around the Great Lakes. However, it makes sense if you think they might have been looking for a water passage to the Pacific, something a trader would be interested in.

Here's a short read about the founder of the Jesuit order and his attitude toward the Jews.

http://ejournals.bc.edu/ojs/index.php/jesuit/article/viewFile/3714/3292

 

[BornOnFire]

Excellent comments and even historical references to back it all up...what a concept! Are there Jesuit Treasures out there? I think we can all agree that there are. The argument that the northern territories of Pimeria Alta may have small caches or a few candlesticks lying around due to the remoteness is actually good reason to support the theory that there are even more hidden caches in the area. Let's just play Devil's advocate for a second here. Let's assume that the Black-Robed Jezzies kept their promise and stayed out of the mining business. Why? They didn't need to! Although the Jesuit Priests were not owners/operators of these mines directly, they were indeed deeply connected and dependent upon mining operations during their 18th century occupation. In fact, the Jesuit Priests and the Mission System fostered a very successful economic structure by bartering their surplus livestock and agricultural goods with the Spanish Colonists who locally owned and operated these numerous mines. The Mission's profits from these ventures were primarily spent on 'necessities' and adorning the church. The vestments of the Missions were critical to the Order. The Jesuit Fathers spared no expense when decorating the interiors of the Mission Churches that served in the conversion of these native heathens into baptized servants of the Order. They also understood the power of influence that was achieved by utilizing grand examples of religious treasures to impress upon the natives the power of the Holy Church. With no official currency available for these transactions, vast amounts of gold and silver were exchanged for the missions to provide their surplus supplies for the mining camps. The amounts of such that we read about today in the limited historical record are likely under-reported. With free labor and unlimited lands, the Mission’s were efficiently profitable. With the unpredictability of frontier-life it is not unreasonable to presume that these Padres’ kept and maintained a small fortune to secure and insure the Church from unforeseen events. The method of securing such a "secret stash" was limited only by the creativity of the Church’s Agents. With no banks or treasury's to assist, the Priests had to devise their own method's....Creating cache's and hidden repositories were skills taught to the Father's in Spain by the Jesuit College (as were monument building, land surveying and mining.) With these facts in mind, the idea that there are Mission Treasures to be found is not unreasonable. In fact, treasures hidden and then abandoned by the Jesuit Missions are actually a reality bolstered by the many Historical accounts of these Father's being unexpectedly murdered, arrested or expelled from the land by the Spanish Crown, revolting Pimans, or raiding Apache. With these documented events, the assumption that treasure and mining locations have been built and then lost in Arizona seems to be based on more than "good treasure stories." It actually seems a bit far-fetched to not believe that Mission Treasures or Caches actually do exist in these valleys- during the time of the missions and even today. Just ask our buddy Ron, who in 1983 stumbled onto 84 pounds of gold bars in the "mountains of Southern AZ near the Mexican Border". They were strategically buried at eight different sites within 200 feet of each-other. The clue that got his attention was a rock in a remote canyon that had a Spanish Missionary Cross carved into it. More clues nearby provided enough information for he and three friends to eventually figure out that they were on to something...long story short, after 22 months of research, hard work, and a lot of luck, they uncovered a complicated system based on religious iconography that was utilized to securely hide various treasure deposits in a remote desert location. Without extensive knowledge of Mission culture, these desert caches would have been impossible to find...coincidence? Not in these Valleys....

 

[UncleMatt]

Yea, Gollum has that story posted on his website

 

[gollum]

Hey BOF,

When you say "Ask our buddy Ron...." By saying "OUR", do you mean you and your brother? Just trying to figure out who you are. LOL .........and it was Ron, his brother, and two friends.

In 1956, Ron got out of the military, bought his Blue Willys Jeep (which he still drives to this day), hooked up with his brother and two friends to begin many years of treasure hunting:



Best - Mike

 

[Springfield]

... Let's just play Devil's advocate for a second here. Let's assume that the Black-Robed Jezzies kept their promise and stayed out of the mining business. Why? They didn't need to! Although the Jesuit Priests were not owners/operators of these mines directly, they were indeed deeply connected and dependent upon mining operations during their 18th century occupation...

This is where the argument breaks down IMO, or at least needs some better creative explanation.

If the Jesuits themselves did not own the alleged mines, then who did? The Spanish? Mike's Temporal Coadjutors? Or someone else? And, while we're on the subject, how were these mines able to operate in New Spain without Spain knowing about them in the first place? The Jesuits were clever and all that, but the Spanish and their military were no dummies either. It sounds to me as if there was either collusion between the Crown and the Church or there were no mines in Primeria Alta - otherwise, where's the middle ground? Why didn't the king demand his share? Mike wouldn't address this part of the story ... will you?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springy, my buddy & friend, coffee to settle your nerves? Never heard of 'Chicago tactics'??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[markmar]

Springfield

The owners were the Spanish . The Church ever was upper of the Crown . The Church , like the Crown , had a percent from the minerals ( confidentially ). When the Jesuits have stop to use the wealth for charitable purposes and became greedy , you know the end . The Vatican was the hand of the Crown . Without the Vatican accept , none Catholic King had the power to turn against the Church . None King became King without Vatican blesses .

Happy New Year to All !

 

[Springfield]

Springfield

The owners were the Spanish . The Church ever was upper of the Crown . The Church, like the Crown , had a percent from the minerals ( confidentially ). When the Jesuits have stop to use the wealth for charitable purposes and became greedy , you know the end . The Vatican was the hand of the Crown . Without the Vatican accept , none Catholic King had the power to turn against the Church . None King became King without Vatican blesses .

Happy New Year to All !

Well, that's an interesting speculation which seems to put the Church of Rome into the rogues' gallery, along with the Spanish as co-conspiratory criminals. That being the case, why didn't the Church merely repeal the 'no mining in the New World' rule? I guess this scenario would explain why the Spanish allowed the Jesuits to operate mines - they were getting their kickback with the Pope's blessing - but it doesn't explain from whom the mines were hidden after 1767.

 

[Oroblanco]

BornOnFire wrote

Let's just play Devil's advocate for a second here. Let's assume that the Black-Robed Jezzies kept their promise and stayed out of the mining business.

There is no reason to play Devil's advocate, and ASSUME that the Jesuits stayed out of the mining business. One of the major Jesuit colleges sole source of income was the MINES it owned. If you will read the Catholic study, The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, you will see a number of mines listed as owned and operated by Jesuits, along with a footnote which points out that some of the "haciendas" are ore mills. Father Polzer admitted to two instances where Jesuits were found mining, and a researcher named West found another. We know that they owned some mines openly, and in almost every area where the Jesuits operated, we have legends of their having mines secretly. In most cases, these legends can be traced to the Indians whom had been under Jesuit mission rule. I would suggest you read over the many posts in this thread.

BornOnFire also wrote

Why? They didn't need to! Although the Jesuit Priests were not owners/operators of these mines directly, they were indeed deeply connected and dependent upon mining operations during their 18th century occupation. In fact, the Jesuit Priests and the Mission System fostered a very successful economic structure by bartering their surplus livestock and agricultural goods with the Spanish Colonists who locally owned and operated these numerous mines.

As you know, the Spanish colonial government kept remarkably good records. Yet who owned the mines found in the Santa Rita mountains, like the Wandering Jew, the Montezuma, the Salero, among others, or the mines found in the Cerro Colorado and the region around Arivaca, which were already abandoned when the Spanish explorer de Anza passed through in 1776? Anza wrote in his diary that the mines around Arivaca had been abandoned in 1767, the very year that the Jesuits were thrown out. So which Spanish colonists were the owners of these mines in Pimeria Alta? Why would the Pima and Papago Indians tell the Americans that these mines had been worked by the padres, not the Spanish?

I have no doubt that your argument is in part, sound; that the Jesuit mission system was fairly successful in farming and ranching enterprises, yet these enterprises do not seem to have been all that profitable, as shown by the Catholic study. Some had losses more years than profits, as is common in farming and ranching no matter who is managing them. Yet we know for a fact that the Jesuits owned mines, and these mines produced precious metals, precious metals which have largely never been recovered.

How were the Jesuits able to operate mines, "under the noses" of the Spanish authorities, we may well ask? This question is posed as if there were Spanish royal authorities patrolling the hills and watching for such things, which is far from the truth. The Jesuit missions were largely on the very fringes of Spanish colonial possessions, with few to no Spanish colonists living there. Why should they, (Spanish colonists) put their very lives at risk to go live among savages? And yet word of Jesuit mining activities WAS filtering back to the royal authorities to some degree, enough that on the arrest and expulsion, the Spanish made real efforts to find the hidden wealth of the Jesuits and illicit bullion, with but little success. If they had not heard something of this wealth, why would they have made any attempt to locate and recover it? Remember too that the workers of the Jesuit mines were the Indians themselves, whom had been indoctrinated by the Jesuits to never reveal the mines to a Spaniard.

Believe what ever you will; you can find plenty of historians whom will state flatly that the Jesuits never had any mines or treasures, even though amateurs can find proof which refutes this. Most historians simply don't look for evidence of an order of priests having had mines, or for that matter, even that their mission systems were very much akin to slavery and bondage for the Indians. No weight is given to the Indians own stories by historians and skeptics, even though we can point to at least one example where the Indians knew exactly where one of the long-lost Jesuit mines was located, and showed it to their friend (Dr John Walker and the Vekol mine).

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Wishing you all a very Happy and prosperous New Year,
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Well, that's an interesting speculation which seems to put the Church of Rome into the rogues' gallery, along with the Spanish as co-conspiratory criminals. That being the case, why didn't the Church merely repeal the 'no mining in the New World' rule? I guess this scenario would explain why the Spanish allowed the Jesuits to operate mines - they were getting their kickback with the Pope's blessing - but it doesn't explain from whom the mines were hidden after 1767.

Springfield


The Jesuits had not hide the mines . Only the secret cache caves . The mines which were/are hidden , are the mines which were took by force of the hostile Indians who concealed them . How you believe the Jesuits could make the Indians to work the mines ? They asked gently from them to work in the name of the God ? Every mining complex had near , a mission and a Spanish guard .
Look to the Tayopa map . Near the church is the mission with the GUARDIANA .

 

[gollum]

Spring,

The Church wasn't in a position to repeal anything. That Cedula had always been made by the King of Spain. The reason for that rule was because the Church was exempted from paying any taxes (like now), and when they converted a heathen, that person was exempted from the taxes until their conversion was completed. Then, for several years after that, the convert was exempted working in the mines for Spanish Civilians.

The Jesuits were also not able to run any businesses for profit. That was because of their tax situation with the Crown. Although they individually took vows of poverty, that vow didn't apply to the Order as a whole.

Best - Mike

 

[BornOnFire]

Hey BOF,

When you say "Ask our buddy Ron...." By saying "OUR", do you mean you and your brother? Just trying to figure out who you are. LOL .........and it was Ron, his brother, and two friends.

In 1956, Ron got out of the military, bought his Blue Willys Jeep (which he still drives to this day), hooked up with his brother and two friends to begin many years of treasure hunting:

View attachment 922125

Best - Mike

Who am I? Well, I'm definitely not Chuck, Roy or Walt...lol....and honestly? I'm nobody important.... In my reference to "our buddy Ron" perhaps I took some creative liberty within my inference but,truth be told, we should all consider Ron Quinn a friend. His tales, however tall they may be, provide hope for the next generation of tireless ridge-walkers and canyon crawlers out here who seek either truth or fortune.

Here's a pic of their Willy's affectionately known as "The Road Runner".

 

[Springfield]

...Every mining complex had near , a mission and a Spanish guard...

OK. Then why didn't the Spanish appropriate the mines as their own?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Interesting question Springfield, Most were run and filed upon legally by the temporal guys. The outer ones that were being mined clandestinely, were basically Physically unknown.
so there was nothing to effectively to file upon. You know there was a Dutchman mine so file upon it, same situation.

When I passed through Cerocahui in the 50's in a field near the Church I noticed a no of large rocks, say 7-10 ft high being split in half vertically - wooden wedges snd water tech. - and deposits being cut out of each half. Presumably they were then glued together with no sign of having been split -- a hidden treasure. Since this was on church land what were they placing into the deposits//

The Cerocahui church later was found to have an underground room loaded with Gold 7 Silver in it, tons, as a matter of fact., so indeed, the Jests 'did' 'hide loot.

Don jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Who am I? Well, I'm definitely not Chuck, Roy or Walt...lol....and honestly? I'm nobody important.... In my reference to "our buddy Ron" perhaps I took some creative liberty within my inference but,truth be told, we should all consider Ron Quinn a friend. His tales, however tall they may be, provide hope for the next generation of tireless ridge-walkers and canyon crawlers out here who seek either truth or fortune.

Here's a pic of their Willy's affectionately known as "The Road Runner".
View attachment 922864

What you say about Ron is absolutely true. Ron is one of the nicest most accommodating people I have ever met. I didn't mean that you were Ron's Brother. Ron told me that he is friends with two brothers that help him out from time to time. I think I remember him saying they rebuilt the engine in the Willys for him. I was just wondering if you were one of them. Could also be Bill Riley. Ron is a very nice gentleman, and I am certain he has a lot of friends. He is also a great store of knowledge about the whole area between Tucson and the Border Areas there since that was where the "Gang" spent most of their time exploring from the 1950s till they decided to stop.

Best - Mike