JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[mdog]

Hi Mike,

I've read the story about the 82 pounds of gold on your 1ORO1 site and was wondering why that area was picked for a cache site. Do you know if there was a trail or mine or mission close by.

Thanks
Rick

 

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[gollum]

Hi Mike,

I've read the story about the 82 pounds of gold on your 1ORO1 site and was wondering why that area was picked for a cache site. Do you know if there was a trail or mine or mission close by.

Thanks
Rick

Well,

Since there is no date on any of the bars, its hard to say. Since they are Jesuit in nature, my guess is they were buried sometime between 1608 and 25 June 1767. Since there were 1027 silver bars (also Jesuit) found not very far from the gold caches, I would narrow the time they were buried to about 1695-1696 (with the martyring of Padre Javier Saeta SJ in 1695).

Both caches were found in the Santa Cruz River Valley.

Best - Mike

 

[BornOnFire]

If the Jesuits themselves did not own the alleged mines, then who did? The Spanish? Mike's Temporal Coadjutors? Or someone else? And, while we're on the subject, how were these mines able to operate in New Spain without Spain knowing about them in the first place? The Jesuits were clever and all that, but the Spanish and their military were no dummies either. It sounds to me as if there was either collusion between the Crown and the Church or there were no mines in Primeria Alta - otherwise, where's the middle ground? Why didn't the king demand his share? Mike wouldn't address this part of the story ... will you?

How were the Jesuits able to operate mines, "under the noses" of the Spanish authorities, we may well ask? This question is posed as if there were Spanish royal authorities patrolling the hills and watching for such things, which is far from the truth. The Jesuit missions were largely on the very fringes of Spanish colonial possessions, with few to no Spanish colonists living there. Why should they, (Spanish colonists) put their very lives at risk to go live among savages? And yet word of Jesuit mining activities WAS filtering back to the royal authorities to some degree, enough that on the arrest and expulsion, the Spanish made real efforts to find the hidden wealth of the Jesuits and illicit bullion, with but little success. If they had not heard something of this wealth, why would they have made any attempt to locate and recover it? Remember too that the workers of the Jesuit mines were the Indians themselves, whom had been indoctrinated by the Jesuits to never reveal the mines to a Spaniard.

There are many documented instances of Commissioned Agents and Visitadores tasked with surveying and reporting the Jesuit territories and their holdings directly to the Crown. The King and subsequent Governing Authorities were well aware that these Missions were involved in mining. In fact, if you read the 1678 report of Visitador Juan Ortiz Zapata to the Provincial Altamirando, you can see that the districts on the Western Slopes were prospering nicely and that mining was flourishing within the Rectorates. The report states that the Church at Matape, was one of the "most beautiful and spacious in the province" with three naves and numerous alters. It describes impressive examples of fine art with paintings and sculptures throughout. "The Church ornaments are of the richest and its chalice and alter furnishings of wrought silver." The report continues to describe that nearly all missions had a choir and native orchestra-with the best being at Batuco,"..with its stock of bugles and trumpets, flageolets, bassoons, flutes, a monochord, a harp and guitars."
The report goes on and on describing each Rectorate and the conditions within its adjoining territory of assigned Churches. The report even goes as far as describing the populace of each mission by documenting the amount of families and individuals within it. Each Mission described had a thriving community of Colonists attached to it.Colonists of Spain who owned property, sold goods and worked in the mines. Zapata’s report describes these Colonists as "Christians"-both Spanish and Native converts. Most could read and write and earned a living by farming and working in the mines. Here we have a working economic presence supported by the Mission and the Crown with a common goal of ultimately benefitting Spain’s interests. The Missions were teaching the Converted how to support themselves-whether it was carpentry, blacksmithing, farming or even mining precious metals. This was big business in the new world- a far cry from a fringe existence of a few padres dodging arrows shot by naked Indians. In fact, the northernmost reach of the Western Slopes and New Spain at that time was the Rectorate of San Francisco Xavier (located in modern day Northern Sonora). This College resided over nearly 20 missions and contained over 9000 colonists. Keep in mind,this was in 1678. Kino wouldn't arrive here for another 2 years....but that’s another story….

 

[Springfield]

OK, FireMan - the Jesuits and Spanish were one big happy family, and the the even-more-happy natives were mining a bunch of silver for them - after all, Jesus just loves miners [wink-jab]. We can only assume the Spanish were well aware of the mineral production and undoubtedly profited from their share - even if the operation was off the books.

So, when the expulsion loomed - a political and economic event designed to remove the de facto secular power of the Jesuits in the New World, to Spain's benefit - why wouldn't the Spanish seize the mines and whatever surplus silver and gold existed? They knew where the mines were, they knew that the padres knew where the surplus metal was hidden (if there was any). The Spanish SOP had always been to cut off fingers until the information was obtained, and they were usually successful, no? Logically, why should we assume the Spanish left 'vast hoards' of Jesuit silver and gold hidden in Arizona? I'd like to believe it myself, but there seems to be some important puzzle pieces missing. The dots are hard to connect in the Jesuit-to-Spanish line.

 

[mdog]

Well,

Since there is no date on any of the bars, its hard to say. Since they are Jesuit in nature, my guess is they were buried sometime between 1608 and 25 June 1767. Since there were 1027 silver bars (also Jesuit) found not very far from the gold caches, I would narrow the time they were buried to about 1695-1696 (with the martyring of Padre Javier Saeta SJ in 1695).

Both caches were found in the Santa Cruz River Valley.

Best - Mike

Thanks Mike.
Were the two cache sites west of Nogales, Arizona? With two caches so close, there must have been a trail along the river. The gold wasn't buried very deep even though it must have taken some time to set the site up, so I wonder if the place was a short term drop off site. Mike, do you know anything about the site where the silver was dug up? Were there carvings at that site and was the cache buried shallow or deep?

Thanks,
Rick

 

[Oroblanco]

There are many documented instances of Commissioned Agents and Visitadores tasked with surveying and reporting the Jesuit territories and their holdings directly to the Crown. The King and subsequent Governing Authorities were well aware that these Missions were involved in mining. In fact, if you read the 1678 report of Visitador Juan Ortiz Zapata to the Provincial Altamirando, you can see that the districts on the Western Slopes were prospering nicely and that mining was flourishing within the Rectorates. The report states that the Church at Matape, was one of the "most beautiful and spacious in the province" with three naves and numerous alters. It describes impressive examples of fine art with paintings and sculptures throughout. "The Church ornaments are of the richest and its chalice and alter furnishings of wrought silver." The report continues to describe that nearly all missions had a choir and native orchestra-with the best being at Batuco,"..with its stock of bugles and trumpets, flageolets, bassoons, flutes, a monochord, a harp and guitars."
The report goes on and on describing each Rectorate and the conditions within its adjoining territory of assigned Churches. The report even goes as far as describing the populace of each mission by documenting the amount of families and individuals within it. Each Mission described had a thriving community of Colonists attached to it.Colonists of Spain who owned property, sold goods and worked in the mines. Zapata’s report describes these Colonists as "Christians"-both Spanish and Native converts. Most could read and write and earned a living by farming and working in the mines. Here we have a working economic presence supported by the Mission and the Crown with a common goal of ultimately benefitting Spain’s interests. The Missions were teaching the Converted how to support themselves-whether it was carpentry, blacksmithing, farming or even mining precious metals. This was big business in the new world- a far cry from a fringe existence of a few padres dodging arrows shot by naked Indians. In fact, the northernmost reach of the Western Slopes and New Spain at that time was the Rectorate of San Francisco Xavier (located in modern day Northern Sonora). This College resided over nearly 20 missions and contained over 9000 colonists. Keep in mind,this was in 1678. Kino wouldn't arrive here for another 2 years....but that’s another story….

I would like to see some of these documented reports about the mines to the king. I am aware of bishop Palafox's complaint, but this was sent to the Pope, not the king. If the Spanish royal authorities were fine with the Jesuits (and other Orders) having mines, why then would the king have issued orders in writing for this practice to STOP? It makes no sense to me.

The area you describe was not exactly the frontier, like Pimeria Alta or even New Mexico. Your point about the missions attempting to make each mission financially self supporting, even profitable, is correct. This was true in ALL of the colonial Americas (and Asia, Africa, India etc) the missions were expected to become self-supporting and not require financial support from the govt, usually not more than ten years were alloted for this by the royal authorities.

Perhaps you have not read this very long thread, we have covered much of this earlier.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I would like to see some of these documented reports about the mines to the king. I am aware of bishop Palafox's complaint, but this was sent to the Pope, not the king. If the Spanish royal authorities were fine with the Jesuits (and other Orders) having mines, why then would the king have issued orders in writing for this practice to STOP? It makes no sense to me."

I would imagine that enemies of the Jesuits......like Bishop Palafox, were telling the King that the Jesuit's were involved in mining and cheating him out of the Royall Fifth. It's possible that the anti-Jesuit reports were forged as coming from Palafox, but I have not seen any proof of that rumor. It was said that the reports were forged by enemies of the Jesuits and there were many to choose from.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

I would like to see some of these documented reports about the mines to the king. I am aware of bishop Palafox's complaint, but this was sent to the Pope, not the king. If the Spanish royal authorities were fine with the Jesuits (and other Orders) having mines, why then would the king have issued orders in writing for this practice to STOP? It makes no sense to me.

The area you describe was not exactly the frontier, like Pimeria Alta or even New Mexico. Your point about the missions attempting to make each mission financially self supporting, even profitable, is correct. This was true in ALL of the colonial Americas (and Asia, Africa, India etc) the missions were expected to become self-supporting and not require financial support from the govt, usually not more than ten years were allotted for this by the royal authorities.

Perhaps you have not read this very long thread, we have covered much of this earlier.
Oroblanco

If Jesuit mining was occurring in Pimeria Alta and the King was aware of it, then the Spanish military in Mexico, quite capable as they were, would have certainly known the mines' locations. Being an open violation of law, why would these mines, and any assets associated with them, not have been seized prior to the expulsion simply as a matter of due process? Was it because of a respectful deference to the pope? Had there been a tacit agreement all along between the Jesuits and the Viceroy of New Spain, and by extension, the King of Spain, to allow the mining to benefit both the Crown and the Church? Whatever the reason, the Spanish had to have known where the mines were.

I suspect the 'illegal mining' charge leveled against the Jesuits (for the sake of argument, allegedly true in Pimeria Alta) was likely to have been just a cynical checked box on the eviction notice. It reminds me of Louie's outrageous comment at Rick's Casablanca club, "Illegal gambling going on here? I'm shocked!! Close it down!" That said, what happened to the mines, if they existed? And, more importantly, the 'caches'?

A possible explanation comes to mind. First, the mines and caches would have been seized by the Spanish without notice. Why wouldn't they have been? A question naturally arises about the output of these mines. Were they 'rich beyond belief'? Probably not. They likely would have produced some silver - enough to make the usual altar pieces, candlesticks, etc. - but possibly not much more. Otherwise, the Spanish would have continued to operate them once they controlled them directly. The mines were likely abandoned at the time. There were much better mining opportunities back south in Mexico. Were they hidden? If so, probably by the Natives, hoping they would be forgotten about.

The caches, if any still exist, are likely collections of altar vestments and possibly some trade bullion. The Spanish would have grabbed any significant bullion stores when they took the mines. Notwithstanding the Jesuits' capers elsewhere in the New World, I suspect their mining activities in Pimeria Alta were modest and the rumors surrounding the caches highly exaggerated. Not surprising for treasure stories.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I am amazed at how some of you act like the Spanish crown had instant access to all colonies on earth.

yep, the old Spanish just diddy bopped about...cart loads of precious metal jingling in the back...
paved roads and portable telephone?

 

[cactusjumper]

BOFire,

[The King and subsequent Governing Authorities were well aware that these Missions were involved in mining. In fact, if you read the 1678 report of Visitador Juan Ortiz Zapata to the Provincial Altamirando, you can see that the districts on the Western Slopes were prospering nicely and that mining was flourishing within the Rectorates. The report states that the Church at Matape, was one of the "most beautiful and spacious in the province" with three naves and numerous alters. It describes impressive examples of fine art with paintings and sculptures throughout. "The Church ornaments are of the richest and its chalice and alter furnishings of wrought silver." The report continues to describe that nearly all missions had a choir and native orchestra-with the best being at Batuco,"..with its stock of bugles and trumpets, flageolets, bassoons, flutes, a monochord, a harp and guitars."
The report goes on and on describing each Rectorate and the conditions within its adjoining territory of assigned Churches. The report even goes as far as describing the populace of each mission by documenting the amount of families and individuals within it. Each Mission described had a thriving community of Colonists attached to it.Colonists of Spain who owned property, sold goods and worked in the mines. Zapata’s report describes these Colonists as "Christians"-both Spanish and Native converts. Most could read and write and earned a living by farming and working in the mines. Here we have a working economic presence supported by the Mission and the Crown with a common goal of ultimately benefitting Spain’s interests. The Missions were teaching the Converted how to support themselves-whether it was carpentry, blacksmithing, farming or even mining precious metals. This was big business in the new world- a far cry from a fringe existence of a few padres dodging arrows shot by naked Indians. In fact, the northernmost reach of the Western Slopes and New Spain at that time was the Rectorate of San Francisco Xavier (located in modern day Northern Sonora). This College resided over nearly 20 missions and contained over 9000 colonists. Keep in mind,this was in 1678. Kino wouldn't arrive here for another 2 years....but that’s another story….]
____________________________________________________

Can you tell me where any of the above states that the Jesuits were involved in mining?

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Roy,

"I would like to see some of these documented reports about the mines to the king. I am aware of bishop Palafox's complaint, but this was sent to the Pope, not the king. If the Spanish royal authorities were fine with the Jesuits (and other Orders) having mines, why then would the king have issued orders in writing for this practice to STOP? It makes no sense to me."

I would imagine that enemies of the Jesuits......like Bishop Palafox, were telling the King that the Jesuit's were involved in mining and cheating him out of the Royall Fifth. It's possible that the anti-Jesuit reports were forged as coming from Palafox, but I have not seen any proof of that rumor. It was said that the reports were forged by enemies of the Jesuits and there were many to choose from.

Take care,

Joe

Joe and Donald,

What I find funny about the Jesuit apologists, is that they always bemoan how the Jesuits were the victims in all this. They did nothing wrong, except they did their job better than anyone else, which made others jealous.

IF ................... and I say IF:

This had only happened in Spain and her territories, I might be sympathetic to the possibility.

BUT ................. The same thing happened to the Jesuit Order in almost every civilized country ON EARTH, and it was almost always for the same reasons!

View attachment 924445

View attachment 924445

Mike

 

[Springfield]

I am amazed at how some of you act like the Spanish crown had instant access to all colonies on earth...

No, but they did have access to the Santa Cruz valley in Arizona in the 1700's. Here's the Cliff's Notes version of the inconsistency between logic and the popular 'Jesuit Treasures' rumors:

If the Jesuits had operated rich enough mines in Arizona, the Spanish would have appropriated them, and any bullion produced. They had no reason not to. If the mines were marginal, they wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Springfield]

Joe and Donald,

What I find funny about the Jesuit apologists, is that they always bemoan how the Jesuits were the victims in all this. They did nothing wrong, except they did their job better than anyone else, which made others jealous. ...

Man, I hope you're not putting me in that club - I personally find the church's presence in the New World - and the Old World too for that matter - fundamentally hypocritical and highly offensive. But that's a topic for elsewhere.

My only beef in all this is that, while the brothers may have operated a few mines in AZ, I'm not seeing a suitable smoking gun that would justify the rumors that infer there are huge 'Jesuit caches' there.

 

[BornOnFire]

Can you tell me where any of the above states that the Jesuits were involved in mining?

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo

"involved in Mining' is a pretty broad supposition. I have not seen any proof that the Jesuits owned any mines outright and I really haven't been convinced that they ever did. They knew better. However, the Jesuit Colleges were tasked with creating a colony of commerce and expected to do so with little or no monies available from Spain. They were also tasked with looking out for the "Gullible Natives" and assisting them with ensuring fair treatment by the cut-throat competition. This was an impossible task without getting their hands dirty. Were they 'involved with Mining'? Absolutely. They supplied mines with church labor and surplus goods. They also shared knowledge of mining with the converted natives so that they may one day be a productive Spanish Colonist.
The Provincial powers were aware of the efforts of the Church and obviously tolerated it in the beginning. You can be sure though that the Padres knew that they were being watched and always took care to stay legal or at least appear that way. If there was any mining done by the Jesuits to benefit of the Order, it was off the record and the Spanish had no way to trace it. That would partially explain why the Spanish didn't seize vast quantities of Jesuit wealth during the expulsion. They had no records to find or prove it and the Jesuits had ample time to conceal it. This wasn't the first rodeo for the Black-Robes.....

 

[BornOnFire]

I would like to see some of these documented reports about the mines to the king. I am aware of bishop Palafox's complaint, but this was sent to the Pope, not the king. If the Spanish royal authorities were fine with the Jesuits (and other Orders) having mines, why then would the king have issued orders in writing for this practice to STOP? It makes no sense to me.

The area you describe was not exactly the frontier, like Pimeria Alta or even New Mexico. Your point about the missions attempting to make each mission financially self supporting, even profitable, is correct. This was true in ALL of the colonial Americas (and Asia, Africa, India etc) the missions were expected to become self-supporting and not require financial support from the govt, usually not more than ten years were alloted for this by the royal authorities.

Perhaps you have not read this very long thread, we have covered much of this earlier.
Oroblanco

Actually, I have read these threads- along with many others. I think you may have misread my intent. In my post that you are referring to, you will see that I never stated that the church owned any mines. I am not convinced that they did at all- at least in Pimeria Alta. My point is that the Church was deeply involved in mining and the King tolerated it. In the beginning, it probably was passed off as the nature of the beast.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

some one tell springfield what i studied at the university.
the devils highway...just a short little trip to santa cruz valley from mexico city?

 

[Springfield]

some one tell springfield what i studied at the university.
the devils highway...just a short little trip to santa cruz valley from mexico city?

Your education, whatever it was, obviously neglected such historical details as the Tubac Presidio established in the Santa Cruz valley ca 1752 - the time period we're talking about. I'll leave further research of the 17th and 18th century presidios in Sonora, Chihuahua and Durango to you.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Listening, all of these questions have been gone over many times in the past.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Long one, extra coffee alert

Hola amigos - this reply got very long, so I am asking your indulgence; thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote

If Jesuit mining was occurring in Pimeria Alta and the King was aware of it, then the Spanish military in Mexico, quite capable as they were, would have certainly known the mines' locations. Being an open violation of law, why would these mines, and any assets associated with them, not have been seized prior to the expulsion simply as a matter of due process?

The Spanish military in Mexico was far from "capable" - their efforts to chastise the Apaches stand in bold relief of their incapabilities. The strength of Spanish forces garrisoning the frontier areas was amazingly small, almost ridiculous. These garrisons rarely ventured out of their forts, meaning that any enforcement of Royal authority was extremely limited. We can point to documented examples of complaints about how the Royal authorities were being blatantly ignored, openly, as happened in New Mexico (trading with the enemy French) or California (trading with the Russians, also illegal).

Springfield also wrote

If the Jesuits had operated rich enough mines in Arizona, the Spanish would have appropriated them, and any bullion produced. They had no reason not to. If the mines were marginal, they wouldn't have bothered.

That is quite an assumption - considering that the Jesuits openly owned mines as documented in the Catholic study, and these mines were not appropriated by the Spanish until after the Jesuits were expelled. Also we have the example of the Planchas de Plata, where the Spanish authorities DID step in, and dashed the hopes of the Jesuits.

BornOnFire wrote

Actually, I have read these threads- along with many others. I think you may have misread my intent. In my post that you are referring to, you will see that I never stated that the church owned any mines. I am not convinced that they did at all- at least in Pimeria Alta. My point is that the Church was deeply involved in mining and the King tolerated it. In the beginning, it probably was passed off as the nature of the beast.

Apparently you did not read the posted link to the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, which lists several mines owned by the Jesuits; also the California Fund, owned by the Jesuits, likewise owned mines. I am taking the liberty to re-post an old posting here, which sums up some of the case.

Remember the instance found by Mr West, in which Jesuits were working silver mines?

<It is posted in this thread further up on this page, however for the benefit of our readers whom are not actively posting here it is again>
"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests. Mining in sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards. The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even knowledge of mining. But apparently ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity. During the late seventeenth century, annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries. "
<Sonora: its geographical personality by Robert Cooper West, pp 62>

This happens to be the same area where African slaves were introduced, and the mines so glaringly omitted by father Nentvig; is this the only case where a Jesuit college held title to mines?

"Some capital was also placed in non-agricultural enterprises. The most significant were the mines which provided the sole support of the college of Zacatecas.<snip>

This occurred, for example, in the case of the mines belonging to the college of Zacatecas. The assessors appraised them in 1773 and gave them a value of 365,000 pesos but because of renewed vigor in the mining industry in Zacatecas, the officials conducted a reappraisal in 1780 and increased their value to 730,000 pesos."
<The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, 1670-1767 Author(s): James D. Riley; Source: The Americas, Vol. 33, No. 2 (Oct., 1976), pp. 226-266 Published by: Catholic University of America Press on behalf of Academy of American Franciscan History pp 243, 245>


Did you catch it? Riley tells us that the college of Zacatecas sole source of income was its MINES. The mines mentioned by Mr West, are not the same mines - they belonged to the college of San Jose at Matape! This means there are at least two documented cases of Jesuit colleges which owned and operated MINES. Whom do we think was doing that labor, in those mines? Hired Spanish workers, or do you think perhaps it could have been the local Indios?

Just for good measure, I will add this - the author James Riley also stated, quote

"The Jesuits had three kinds of investments, urban rental property, interest bearing notes, and commercial ventures such as haciendas, mines, obrajes and retail stores which they exploited themselves."
<ibid, pp 242>

Also, before this idea is proposed - NO, I don't believe we can attribute those two instances admitted to by father Polzer in which priests were found involved in mining, for the way he phrased it, implied they were individual priests, not a group of mines owned by Jesuit colleges. I am confident that if father Polzer was talking about mines owned by Jesuit colleges, there would have been no reason for the priests to be punished in any way.

Considering that this report of a second group of mines belonging to a Jesuit college, originates from a Catholic publisher, I don't think we can dismiss it as so much fiction from the imagination of treasure writers. It is interesting too, that in each case where an historian discovers an instance of Jesuit mines, they presume it to be a SINGULAR occurrence!

<end of re-post from http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...u find the treasures that you seek. Oroblanco

 

[BornOnFire]

Hola amigos - this reply got very long, so I am asking your indulgence; thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote


The Spanish military in Mexico was far from "capable" - their efforts to chastise the Apaches stand in bold relief of their incapabilities. The strength of Spanish forces garrisoning the frontier areas was amazingly small, almost ridiculous. These garrisons rarely ventured out of their forts, meaning that any enforcement of Royal authority was extremely limited. We can point to documented examples of complaints about how the Royal authorities were being blatantly ignored, openly, as happened in New Mexico (trading with the enemy French) or California (trading with the Russians, also illegal).

Springfield also wrote


That is quite an assumption - considering that the Jesuits openly owned mines as documented in the Catholic study, and these mines were not appropriated by the Spanish until after the Jesuits were expelled. Also we have the example of the Planchas de Plata, where the Spanish authorities DID step in, and dashed the hopes of the Jesuits.

BornOnFire wrote


Apparently you did not read the posted link to the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, which lists several mines owned by the Jesuits; also the California Fund, owned by the Jesuits, likewise owned mines. I am taking the liberty to re-post an old posting here, which sums up some of the case.

<end of re-post from http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...gh crowd though…. Buen Noche, fellow seekers…