Hi Marius,
I think the chance for deception would be greater if every bar had the same stamp on it. it could be considered common and not unusual enough to demand further attention.
Rick
JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?
- Thread starter gollum
- Start date
Hi Marius,
I think the chance for deception would be greater if every bar had the same stamp on it. it could be considered common and not unusual enough to demand further attention.
Rick
markmar
Silver Member
- Oct 17, 2012
- 4,177
- 6,358
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Rick
Maybe you have right . We must to admit every possibility . I am not Mason , but if you believe how the bar has a map , you can find a Masonic alphanumeric key and how to use it at The Great Lost Treasure
Have a nce day
Maybe you have right . We must to admit every possibility . I am not Mason , but if you believe how the bar has a map , you can find a Masonic alphanumeric key and how to use it at The Great Lost Treasure
Have a nce day
Thanks Marius, that's a real interesting link, especially this statement.
"I particular the Freemasons took great delight in putting coded messages to their lost "treasure" right in front of everyone's nose where they could be seen but not recognized. There were two ways they did this. The first was by a completely fictional story that carried with it references to the treasure and signals that only a Mason would recognize. The other is what may be termed a hoax/riddle: a real sounding story complete with the names of actual people and locations that was a hoax but had within it a riddle or puzzle to solve. Again only a Mason would be able to recognize the signals and solve the riddle."
Rick
The above statement is on page three of the link Marius posted.
Springfield
Silver Member
Anagrams can be revealing - a great tool for you code freaks. Internet Anagram Server / I, Rearrangement Servant : anagram, anagrams, nag a ram, software, anagramme, anagrama, wordplay, word play, anagram creator, anagram solver, anagram finder, anagram generator, anagram maker, anagram unscrambler, anagram mac (use advanced tab)
Here's another example applied to the 'martyr cache' silver bar inscription. If you associate the Jesuits with the Vatican, you might logically test the silver bar inscription anagrams using the Italian language. One possible set of Italian words is "est mar dea", which could be translated as "eastern March goddess". This could well be a reference to Minerva, the Roman goddess of wisdom, who is celebrated in March. Minerva is also the Greek Athena, and Sophia, the so-called Mother Goddess. So what, you say? The goddess is traditionally associated with the owl. The owl is a fundamental treasure symbol used by a group known as The Organization - alleged to be the owner of the mysterious treasure caches all of us are curious about. The Jesuits are alleged to be members.
This is blue-sky speculation of course, but an example of a relatively simple code applied to an otherwise innocent inscription. If you think this is an arcane approach, you should see what can/has been done with Baconian cyphers, the so-called pursher code, etc., not to mention complex geometric chicanery. The Kenworthy 'martyr cache', whatever the truth is behind it, may be a message associated with one of the major caches in Arizona. You can bet that everything on that bar somehow fits into the message.
Here's another example applied to the 'martyr cache' silver bar inscription. If you associate the Jesuits with the Vatican, you might logically test the silver bar inscription anagrams using the Italian language. One possible set of Italian words is "est mar dea", which could be translated as "eastern March goddess". This could well be a reference to Minerva, the Roman goddess of wisdom, who is celebrated in March. Minerva is also the Greek Athena, and Sophia, the so-called Mother Goddess. So what, you say? The goddess is traditionally associated with the owl. The owl is a fundamental treasure symbol used by a group known as The Organization - alleged to be the owner of the mysterious treasure caches all of us are curious about. The Jesuits are alleged to be members.
This is blue-sky speculation of course, but an example of a relatively simple code applied to an otherwise innocent inscription. If you think this is an arcane approach, you should see what can/has been done with Baconian cyphers, the so-called pursher code, etc., not to mention complex geometric chicanery. The Kenworthy 'martyr cache', whatever the truth is behind it, may be a message associated with one of the major caches in Arizona. You can bet that everything on that bar somehow fits into the message.
Springfield,
Thanks for the link and a very interesting post.
It makes me even more curious about the martyr cache and who or what brought Kenworthy to the site of the cache.
Rick
markmar
Silver Member
- Oct 17, 2012
- 4,177
- 6,358
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Rick
I believe this is the half truth . IMO , some people could learn the Masonic crypto practices .
Look at the Tumacacori ( sister Molina ) map . All the distances in the text are a combination of some lines in the map ( not a straight line ) . The real distance between Virgines de Guadalupe mine and Purisima Conception mine is about 1,5 mile .
Last edited:
Marius,
I don't know anything about the Sister Molina map but I think Mike has a thread about it so I'll have to check it out.
Thanks,
Rick
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
MDog, Coffee to take with you?? ---> [h=3]Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document[/h]
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Mdog, being a coffee addict, well trained into the habit by the military, I'll take it !! Gracias my friend Rick.
Don Jose de La Manncha
p.s. I just remembered that Gullum conned me into translating that document once. it must be around heere someplace. It differed from the official posted version.
Don Jose de La Manncha
p.s. I just remembered that Gullum conned me into translating that document once. it must be around heere someplace. It differed from the official posted version.
Last edited:
The grapevine has narrations of the finding of gold and silver bullion caches. Very few are verifiable because the finders don't want the IRS, archaeologists, state and local officials, and others knocking on their doors. Some are just campfire tales that have been embellished over time as they are rewritten by new authors.
Then there is the problem of the authenticity of supposed found silver and gold bars. A precious metal dore bar from a couple hundred years ago would be more valuable then the spot price of that metal. Bullion bars have been counterfeited as well as gold and silver coins that are very attractive to collectors. And how would a thief dispose of stolen bullion? Buy an old worked out mine and recast the goods into dore bars?
Here is a link that discusses some of the "Tubac/Kino" bars that came on the market sixty years ago:
1691 - Father Kino Ingots from Sonora, Mexico - Holabird-Kagin Americana
Then there is the problem of the authenticity of supposed found silver and gold bars. A precious metal dore bar from a couple hundred years ago would be more valuable then the spot price of that metal. Bullion bars have been counterfeited as well as gold and silver coins that are very attractive to collectors. And how would a thief dispose of stolen bullion? Buy an old worked out mine and recast the goods into dore bars?
Here is a link that discusses some of the "Tubac/Kino" bars that came on the market sixty years ago:
1691 - Father Kino Ingots from Sonora, Mexico - Holabird-Kagin Americana
Springfield
Silver Member
Quite an article, Igadbois - thanks. For those who don't want to wade through the technicalities presented by a experienced mining man and numismatic antiquities dealer, here's the takeaway:
" ... Conclusion
The Kino ingots were placed into the American marketplace more than six decades ago amidst a cloud of uncertainty and questions. Their origin has carefully been kept secret, letting rumors fly in the wake of clever stories, most rendered without a shred of proof.
The men or man who made them carefully placed them into the numismatic world. Over time, other suspicious precious metal ingots were also placed into the numismatic world. The place of origin of many of these questionable or fake ingots was Arizona. The men responsible continued to improve their techniques and place more bad ingots into circulation.
The Kino ingots seen and tested here are, in all probability and currently beyond the possibility of reasonable doubt fake. The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive."
True believers frequently ignore facts, of course ('never let the facts get in the way of a good story'), but a prudent observer may well consider the implications of this paper vis-a-vis Jesuit mining in Arizona. I do believe there was activity on a limited scale, but frauds like this one tend to sully the more ambitious allegations.
Rebel - KGC
Gold Member
- Jun 15, 2007
- 21,663
- 14,726
Like reading a GREAT book; THANKS!
markmar
Silver Member
- Oct 17, 2012
- 4,177
- 6,358
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Mastiff4me
Hero Member
- Sep 29, 2013
- 537
- 1,008
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
. Don Jose, quieziera una taza de cafe' comabate. Qual quieres? Tiene experiencia acre a de las Mina's viejos en Aduana? Tengo machos memorials. I love Mexico!!!
Last edited:
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Hola Mastiff,,, mi cafe?? Yes I know a bit about the minas Nuevas and Aduana mines.
In fact if you remember in the plaza next ro the Church to thr right street on the left side of the street, I loooked for a Treasure in the third hous ruins..
The sidewalk in front of the ruin was about 6 ft wide and around 4 ft high. On the street, on the outside wall, were scratched treasure signs etc. We assumed that ll idies had been playing so after checing the house out we sat on the banqueta dring a coke, then left.
About a month later I was called back to Aduana to see where someone had found a trreasure during the night. When I arrived it was to find that someone had used the kiddie scratching to idig. It was exactly where the sign said it it 'WAS'. there wrere the broken fragments of a 5 gallon Olla with the oxidized marks of silver coins inside of it.
I learned later that a couple of Mexicanos had arrived d in the evening,, took a room across the street and were gone early the next monring. They had come specifically to dig it up and had successfully done so. sniff. Have lot's of stories of the area.
Don Jose de la Cafe con Leche << I'm delicate
p.s. Hi to the fsmily.
In fact if you remember in the plaza next ro the Church to thr right street on the left side of the street, I loooked for a Treasure in the third hous ruins..
The sidewalk in front of the ruin was about 6 ft wide and around 4 ft high. On the street, on the outside wall, were scratched treasure signs etc. We assumed that ll idies had been playing so after checing the house out we sat on the banqueta dring a coke, then left.
About a month later I was called back to Aduana to see where someone had found a trreasure during the night. When I arrived it was to find that someone had used the kiddie scratching to idig. It was exactly where the sign said it it 'WAS'. there wrere the broken fragments of a 5 gallon Olla with the oxidized marks of silver coins inside of it.
I learned later that a couple of Mexicanos had arrived d in the evening,, took a room across the street and were gone early the next monring. They had come specifically to dig it up and had successfully done so. sniff. Have lot's of stories of the area.
Don Jose de la Cafe con Leche << I'm delicate
p.s. Hi to the fsmily.
Mastiff4me
Hero Member
- Sep 29, 2013
- 537
- 1,008
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Love the story! I have some good ones too, when I was just a kid over there. I will be coming to MX in March, so I look forward to serving you un cafe' con leche. 
Thanks. I will also tell you my own private Jesuit story. You will be amazed!
Thanks. I will also tell you my own private Jesuit story. You will be amazed!
Peyton Manning
Gold Member
- Dec 19, 2012
- 14,629
- 18,954
- 🏆 Honorable Mentions:
- 1
- Detector(s) used
- MXT-PRO
Sandshark
- Primary Interest:
- Metal Detecting
Top Member Reactions
-
3318 -
1922 -
1909 -
1190 -
1096 -
862 -
813 -
811 -
801 -
790 -
769 -
533 -
497 -
471 -
425 -
423 -
420 -
E
414
-
402 -
395
