JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Roy,

Not trying to get the Jesuits off anything. Just showing how good they were/are at exploiting the loopholes.

Same reason the Mafia has several levels of ranking. Each layer is a buffer between those who call the shots and those who do the shooting. Some goodfella gets pinched for shooting someone, and he can only rat on the guy above him. He never was told directly by the Big Boss to shoot anybody. THAT is why we came up with the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) Act. That wayeven if the shooter can't directly inform on the Big Boss, all you have to do is tie the Big Boss into the Organization and he is De Facto Guilty of the crime.

They were more up front about the slave thing because at the time, there were no laws against African Slaveholding (even the Pope had slaves on his Papal Barge).

Best - Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Not trying to get the Jesuits off anything. Just showing how good they were/are at exploiting the loopholes.

Same reason the Mafia has several levels of ranking. Each layer is a buffer between those who call the shots and those who do the shooting. Some goodfella gets pinched for shooting someone, and he can only rat on the guy above him. He never was told directly by the Big Boss to shoot anybody. THAT is why we came up with the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) Act. That wayeven if the shooter can't directly inform on the Big Boss, all you have to do is tie the Big Boss into the Organization and he is De Facto Guilty of the crime.

They were more up front about the slave thing because at the time, there were no laws against African Slaveholding (even the Pope had slaves on his Papal Barge).

Best - Mike

Mike,

So now we are comparing the Jesuits to the Mafia. As a Sicilian, I am offended. On the other hand, it's a fine......theory. Who can say it's not a true story?

Take care and have a great Christmas,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

So now we are comparing the Jesuits to the Mafia. As a Sicilian, I am offended. On the other hand, it's a fine......theory. Who can say it's not a true story?

Take care and have a great Christmas,

Joe

Joe,

Quit sounding like MSNBC. Don't take things out of the context in which they are intended. Are you saying that since you are Sicilian, you are offended to be compared to a Jesuit? Since THEIR OWN rule is that ONLY Sicilians can be made members of "La Cosa Nostra" maybe you should call Don Matteo Denara and tell him how offended you are, then get ready for that 2AM knock on your door! LOL

Whether it is La Cosa Nostra, The US Government, The Kennedy Assassination Conspirators (some could be the same as previous), The Jesuit Order, Lehman Brothers, HUD, Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac, or any multi-level/layer organization, if unscrupulous decisions are being made at the top levels, then they use all the levels in between as a buffer between the person at the top that made the decision, and the poor schmuck at the bottom of the ladder that executes it and gets caught. That way the Big Boss is .......................... you know!

Best - Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Does the Pope know...?

 

[UncleMatt]

You could throw Fox News in there too Gollum, not just msnbc (which I have never watched)

 

[lgadbois]

I am enjoying the well studied opinions that have been offered on this thread! Thanks to all that are contributing.

The issues concerning the Spanish colonization and the work of the Jesuits make for some interesting discussions. Most of us are here because of our interests in mining and hidden treasures. It is easy to assume that all actions taken by the Spanish and the Jesuits were to enrich themselves, and win favor with the Spanish Government for gaining land and wealth.

It is my opinion that much of the work by the Jesuits was a conscientious mission to bring Christianity to the New World. Padre Escubio Franciso Kino was a highly educated man, and was one of the best cartographers in Europe. He traveled to Mexico to build the mission system and to map the country while living his life in humility and poverty. The Jesuits had been assigned the territory north to the Gila River, and Kino was effective in bringing Missions and Visitas to all the major villages throughout Northern Sonora and Pimera Alta north to the Gila River and west to the Colorado River. Kino's maps were used for over 100 years after his death. The Franciscans that reopened the missions after 1767 were amazed at the work that had been done before they arrived on the scene.

The Spanish colonials that used the Indians as slaves were often at odds with the local Padres, and often blamed the Jesuits for problems the colonials themselves created in the treatment of their workers. Yet, it was the Jesuits that opened the northern territories for mining and trade. Much of the development of these areas was dependent on the Church's moderating presence. I submit the opinion that most of the missions and visitas were started where the villages were located, and not because there may have been mining in the area. Much of the food sources for the frontier came from the mission villages where agriculture and the raising of animals was central.

 

[gollum]

I am enjoying the well studied opinions that have been offered on this thread! Thanks to all that are contributing.

The issues concerning the Spanish colonization and the work of the Jesuits make for some interesting discussions. Most of us are here because of our interests in mining and hidden treasures. It is easy to assume that all actions taken by the Spanish and the Jesuits were to enrich themselves, and win favor with the Spanish Government for gaining land and wealth.

It is my opinion that much of the work by the Jesuits was a conscientious mission to bring Christianity to the New World. Padre Escubio Franciso Kino was a highly educated man, and was one of the best cartographers in Europe. He traveled to Mexico to build the mission system and to map the country while living his life in humility and poverty. The Jesuits had been assigned the territory north to the Gila River, and Kino was effective in bringing Missions and Visitas to all the major villages throughout Northern Sonora and Pimera Alta north to the Gila River and west to the Colorado River. Kino's maps were used for over 100 years after his death. The Franciscans that reopened the missions after 1767 were amazed at the work that had been done before they arrived on the scene.

The Spanish colonials that used the Indians as slaves were often at odds with the local Padres, and often blamed the Jesuits for problems the colonials themselves created in the treatment of their workers. Yet, it was the Jesuits that opened the northern territories for mining and trade. Much of the development of these areas was dependent on the Church's moderating presence. I submit the opinion that most of the missions and visitas were started where the villages were located, and not because there may have been mining in the area. Much of the food sources for the frontier came from the mission villages where agriculture and the raising of animals was central.

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or honest but,

If you read my initial post in this thread, you will see what I think of the Jesuits (in regards to their evangelizing and explorations)...... and the man's name was EUSEBIO Francisco Kino SJ.

You sound a bit like a Jesuit Apologist that sees the Order through Rose Tinted Glasses. Like they can do no wrong. The Jesuits were the main cause of the Pima Uprising of 1751. When Father Keller took away Luis Oacpicagigua's Stick of Authority and called him a Chichimec Dog, then proceeded to say he would be better dressed in an animal skin and loincloth. Ths man Luis of Saric. A well respected Indian that had financed many raids on th Apache out of his own pocket.

Father Juan Nentvig attacked him by saying he owned more land than any one man should be allowed (funny considering how much land the Jesuits had).

The Jesuits were also the largest slaveholders in the New World.

Because of their own intrigues, they were kicked out of most every country in the World (East and West).

Best - Mike

 

[lgadbois]

Mike, I respect your knowledge and perspective.

You can't paint all the Jesuits with the same brush. I am not Catholic, and no where did I say that the Jesuits were blameless. I used the example of Kino, who was effective in his work and mission. I will take the position that all the Jesuits were not primarily interested in mining or the accumulation of wealth.

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - you never answered my questions?

Perhaps it would refresh your membory to re-read that letter of Bishop Pallafox? It is included in this reply, in ref to a different post.


Reb wrote

Does the Pope know...?

That is a key issue isn't it? As the current Pope is a Jesuit, it would be interesting to know the answer to that question. However it is more important to ask the question in the past tense; for while the Jesuits operating in Spanish (and the rest of) Colonial America were actively mining and accumulating treasures, did the Pope know about it at the time? Since the Jesuits loved to say that their properties and wealth belonged to "the Church" yet the Church never seems to have had any knowledge of this wealth. I think it is very enlightening that Bishop Pallafox, sent to Mexico to look into matters there, was so alarmed about what he found that he felt he needed to write directly to the Pope. Here is that letter (in English) which Joe takes such objection to, based on Pallafox being so virulently filled with hatred of Jesuits. Quote

Most Holy Father,
I found almost all the wealth all immovables and all treasures of this Province of America in the hands of the Jesuits who still possess them. Two of their colleges have 30,000 sheep without counting the small flocks and whilst almost all the cathedral churches and all the Orders together have hardly three sugar refineries the Society alone has six of the largest. One of these refineries is valued at more than half a million thalers and this single Province of the Jesuits which however only consists of ten colleges possesses as I have just said six of these refineries each one of which brings in 100,000 thalers yearly. Besides this they have various corn fields of enormous size . Also they have silver mines and if they continue to increase their power and wealth as excessively as they have done up to now the secular clergy will become their sacristans and the laymen their stewards whilst the other Orders will be forced to collect alms at their doors. All this property and all these considerable revenues which might make a sovereign powerful serve no other purpose than to maintain ten colleges. To this may be added the extraordinary skill with which they make use of and increase their superabundant wealth. They maintain public warehouses, cattle fairs, butchers stalls, and shops. They send a part of their goods by way of the Philippine Islands to China. They lend out their money for usury and thus cause the greatest loss and injury to others

<Don Juan Palafox Briefe an Papst Innozenz X Frankfort and Leipzig 1773 pp 7-9, letter of May 25th 1647 from John Palafox Bishop of Los Angeles wrote to Pope Innocent X >

Bishop Pallafox felt his own life in danger while in Mexico from the Jesuits and went into hiding for a time, and was as noted earlier, twice ex-communicated by the Jesuits for his efforts. They could not get him as destroyed as they would have wished but did get him removed from Mexico and put out of the way.

Note also that this was done in 1646-47, exactly the period of the bonanza production of Tayopa, and the same time period as the Tayopa Inventory document. It is entirely possible that the silver mines referred to by Pallafox were Tayopa. The Jesuits continued to operate and expand in all of the Spanish, French and Portuguese colonies until the 1750s when the crackdowns started.

Mike's point about having layers of deniability protecting those at the top are also valid; we have posted previously the example of the French Jesuits, when one of their ship loads of rich cargo was captured by pirates, the courts of France found the Jesuits liable, and they decided to burn the single priest of Martinique as if he had controlled and orchestrated the entire commercial enterprise of the Jesuits in French Colonial America.

Mike pointed out the 1751 Pima rebellion as being largely due to the Jesuits, this is not the only such example; the 1740 Yaqui revolt was also due to Jesuit padres mistreating the Indians, as was pointed out earlier. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, now remember that these padres, operating out on the very fringes of "civilization" among heathen Indians, had absolute power, backed by Spanish soldiers and trusted Indian lackeys.

Side thing here (to Mike) but I do realize that slavery was not illegal at that time; however we have people today whom deny that the Jesuits had any slaves and were not involved in the slave trade, that rather, they were the protectors of the poor Indians from enslavement by the evil Spaniards. While they did make efforts to prevent the Indians of their missions from being pressed into service working in the mines (and elsewhere) by the Spanish, they were using those same Indians in forced labors themselves, so it is not like they were protecting them from slavery, they were keeping their Indians as their own private stock of slave labor. Hardly "protecting" them from slavery if you are using them like slaves yourself.

I won't say that the Jesuit missionaries did no good whatsoever, but their good works serve to mask their subversive political intrigues, their massing of wealth and properties, and power. It is not exactly fair to use this simile, but Hitler built the famous Autobahn highways of Germany, had Volkswagen designed for a car that ordinary working people could afford, and restored the ruined economy of Germany; of course he plunged the world into a massive war and tried to exterminate millions, so do we turn a blind eye to the evils, for the sake of the good deeds? The Jesuit padres may well have wished to save the souls of the heathens, but this was not their only activity by any stretch of the imagination - for that matter Cortez felt he was bringing the blessings of Christianity to the Aztecs, which was not the only thing he brought them either.

Sorry for yet another long-winded post; oh and one other thing -

Gollum wrote

Joe,

Quit sounding like MSNBC.

Mike I would never have guessed that you watch MSNBC?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Mike, I respect your knowledge and perspective.

You can't paint all the Jesuits with the same brush. I am not Catholic, and no where did I say that the Jesuits were blameless. I used the example of Kino, who was effective in his work and mission. I will take the position that all the Jesuits were not primarily interested in mining or the accumulation of wealth.

lgadbois,

You HAVE to paint all the Jesuits with a single brush, unless you believe there was/is a secret Order of Rogue Jesuit Priests who do all the unscrupulous acts, while the rest of the kindly Fathers explore new worlds, convert and train the heathens, etc. Do you believe that the only Jesuits who knew about the Gunpowder Plot of 1605, or the attempted assassination of King John I of Portugal in 1758, or those arrested fomenting the Spanish Riots of 1766 were the only ones who knew anything about those plots? The Jesuits place such importance on their vows of Obedience, do you think it was possible they didn't say anything to their higher ups about things THAT important? NO WAY!

Mike

 

[Rebel - KGC]

ROGUE...? Well, the Da Vinci Code indicates such...

 

[lgadbois]

Mike,

We may never agree on this topic:

"You HAVE to paint all the Jesuits with a single brush, unless you believe there was/is a secret Order of Rogue Jesuit Priests who do all the unscrupulous acts, while the rest of the kindly Fathers explore new worlds, convert and train the heathens, etc. Do you believe that the only Jesuits who knew about the Gunpowder Plot of 1605, or the attempted assassination of King John I of Portugal in 1758, or those arrested fomenting the Spanish Riots of 1766 were the only ones who knew anything about those plots? The Jesuits place such importance on their vows of Obedience, do you think it was possible they didn't say anything to their higher ups about things THAT important? NO WAY!"

Think about what you have stated, when it comes to the vows of obedience. The Society of Jesus is a sect of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believe that the Pope is God's spokesman on Earth. Jesuits must therefore be obedient to the Pope. Remember that after the collapse of Rome, the Catholic Church more or less governed the civilized world for almost a thousand years. The Church was the custodian of education through the period of plagues and famine, and most civil authority was subserviant to the Church. The Church felt that it was their calling to be in control. As Kings and other world leaders turned away from the Church, terrible things happened, like the Inquisition. But not all Catholics were involved in the intrigues of the Middle Ages. There are conspiracy theorists that believe that the SOJ was planning to overthrow Spanish rule in Central and South America. There may have been some Jesuit leaders that had that idea. Not all Jesuits were from Spain. Kino was an Italian from a wealthy family that was well connected to the Church hierarchy. There is no evidence that he ever used his influence to accumulate wealth, or to subvert the authority of Spain.

Yes, there were bad things that were done by the Jesuits. There wss certainly more good than bad. After the Jesuit leaders were arrested and deported in 1767 by the King of Spain, the planting of Christianity did not die in those countries. And today, as it was fifteen hundred years ago, some of the most respected schools throughout the world are run by the Society of Jesus. Almost every major city in the world has Jesuit schools.

It is true that good intentions don't always result in good results. I wonder how history in five hundred years will view the actions of our Nation. Will we be viewed as a blood thirsty Nation that used military power to control the peoples of the rest of the world?

Jesuit Treasures: are they real? I believe they are, as some have already been found. It is important to remember that the Spanish Army and Government were responsible for capturing the lands of New Spain, and it is they that took billions in gold and silver out of these countries, not the Jesuits!

 

[Oroblanco]

Igadbois, I suggest you consider what bishop Palafox wrote to the Pope about the Jesuits:

Most Holy Father,
I found almost all the wealth all immovables and all treasures of this Province of America in the hands of the Jesuits who still possess them. <snip>

Also read the Catholic study, "The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico" circa 1767, it is available on JSTOR.
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
The Spaniards were not getting ALL the treasures by any means. One estimate put the Jesuits holdings in Mexico at 80% of the wealth of the whole of the country.

Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad to you all,O
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Mike,

We may never agree on this topic:

"You HAVE to paint all the Jesuits with a single brush, unless you believe there was/is a secret Order of Rogue Jesuit Priests who do all the unscrupulous acts, while the rest of the kindly Fathers explore new worlds, convert and train the heathens, etc. Do you believe that the only Jesuits who knew about the Gunpowder Plot of 1605, or the attempted assassination of King John I of Portugal in 1758, or those arrested fomenting the Spanish Riots of 1766 were the only ones who knew anything about those plots? The Jesuits place such importance on their vows of Obedience, do you think it was possible they didn't say anything to their higher ups about things THAT important? NO WAY!"

Think about what you have stated, when it comes to the vows of obedience. The Society of Jesus is a sect of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Catholics believe that the Pope is God's spokesman on Earth. Jesuits must therefore be obedient to the Pope. Remember that after the collapse of Rome, the Catholic Church more or less governed the civilized world for almost a thousand years. The Church was the custodian of education through the period of plagues and famine, and most civil authority was subserviant to the Church. The Church felt that it was their calling to be in control. As Kings and other world leaders turned away from the Church, terrible things happened, like the Inquisition. But not all Catholics were involved in the intrigues of the Middle Ages. There are conspiracy theorists that believe that the SOJ was planning to overthrow Spanish rule in Central and South America. There may have been some Jesuit leaders that had that idea. Not all Jesuits were from Spain. Kino was an Italian from a wealthy family that was well connected to the Church hierarchy. There is no evidence that he ever used his influence to accumulate wealth, or to subvert the authority of Spain.

Yes, there were bad things that were done by the Jesuits. There wss certainly more good than bad. After the Jesuit leaders were arrested and deported in 1767 by the King of Spain, the planting of Christianity did not die in those countries. And today, as it was fifteen hundred years ago, some of the most respected schools throughout the world are run by the Society of Jesus. Almost every major city in the world has Jesuit schools.

It is true that good intentions don't always result in good results. I wonder how history in five hundred years will view the actions of our Nation. Will we be viewed as a blood thirsty Nation that used military power to control the peoples of the rest of the world?

Jesuit Treasures: are they real? I believe they are, as some have already been found. It is important to remember that the Spanish Army and Government were responsible for capturing the lands of New Spain, and it is they that took billions in gold and silver out of these countries, not the Jesuits!

WHAT?!?!?!

"After the Jesuit Leaders were arrested and deported..." It wasn't just the leaders, it was EVERY Jesuit serving and living in every Spanish held territory ON EARTH!

Brother, you need to go and read some history books!

It is also noted that Father Kino SJ offered to use 200,000 pesos from the treasury of his Mission Magdelena to use for the building of a church at another mission site (I don't remember which one without having to look it up).

Please reread all our discussions referring to Jesuit wealth before regurgitating the same things that were said a loooong time ago and were refuted then. I hate having to make the same arguments to different people over and over. Until you come back with something original, I will consider this matter settled. Waaaaay too much typing to have to repeat! LOL

You can believe what you want. I don't care. I am not here to change what you believe. I am here to provide little known facts to people who seek the truth with an open mind. As things stand, I recommend that you keep on reading The Loyola Press, and take it at face value without questioning a thing. Living like a sheep is much easier on the mind. Much less stressful! LOL

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Mike and Roy have provided plenty of pieces of circumstantial evidence that a prudent man would have to admit points to the fact that the Jesuits controlled numerous mining ventures (or at least profited from them) in the New World. Good job.

Denial and damage control is every bit as much a modus operendi as the exploitative actions that required the denials in the first place. It's the way avarice political conquerors do things (the ones who feel guilt anyway), whether they're gunning for fresh souls in savage-land or oil in the Middle East. Only the terminally naive give the religious machines, including the SJ, a pass based on some 'higher ideal'. We have a fair idea of what the Jesuit apologists are apologizing for.

So, now let's ignore what may have happened in the rest of the world and focus on that happened during the Jesuits' run on the far northern Mexican frontier and especially in today's American Southwest. Cutting to the chase, it's my feeling the Jesuits' mining output was much less than many claim - they likely primarily recovered silver used for church paraphernalia and the financing of further mission expansion. Significant, but not deserving of the legends of 'vast hoards'.

There may be some hidden candlesticks here and there, and some silver and gold ingots in the hole too, but if the caches were as large as rumored, it's hard for me to swallow that the brothers or their agents haven't recovered them in the past 250 years. The most obvious explanation is that the the caches are small and not worth the trouble. Another answer would be that the caches have already been retrieved secretly - which would make the treasure hunters' interest moot.

Another question - unless there was collusion, how did the Jesuits operate these southwestern mines without the knowledge of the Spanish? Sure, the brothers may have gypped the Crown out of its share, but how were the locations of the mines kept secret?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning gentlemen: I see that most haven't connected the pieces. As Mike touched upon,,the SJ was a definitely layered society, especially in the new world.

First, the Jesuits freely mined openly in the rest of the world, it was only in North America that any effort was made to constrain them. So the SJ separated the Mission Priest from any mining legally by using coadjutors, who had just as much loyalty to the SJ as an ordained Priest. These operated the mines and various businesses basically while a near by rep of the SJ held final say.

In general the lowly hard working Mission Priest was excluded from knowing of this separation, and like the SJ, could honestly say "we , as members of the SJ, did no mining except for souls."

Apparently this was sufficiently successful so that the expulsion order 'only' included the poor Mission Priest - He was expendable in the final plans of the society.

The type of order and execution was not against simple mining by a few rogue Priests, , but it had been discovered that the SJ was collaborating with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain After all just where could a few Priests hide successfully very long ?? So a simultaneous arrest was to nip a revolution plot in the bud by taking out the leaders.

The Society had set up a series of missions one day apart,to leap frog precious metal from the north west across northern Mexico to a Bay just below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome, So when the order became effective, apparently the Coadjuctors simply locked the doors to the missions and depositories and left with the records..

This in itself, is an extremely interesting source of many treasures being found in the ruins of unknown missions..

There is one just beyond Yepache, Chihuahua, that the Indians have invited me to help them dig up. The actual mission has no visible appearance on the ground level any more, but is easily seen in aerial photographs. How many other similar ones are still out there just as they were when the expulsion order went into effect. sort alike 'hiding' any evidence by the SJ, no?

in any event, yes, the society were into mining etc. no matter how much they might deny it today. Undelivered mining metals still lie out there . As for the richness of the main churches,one only has to visit them, while the missionary' church, in general i that was probably just be a scrub brush hovel or a thatched roof affai at first.

Don Jose de La Mancha

.

 

[gollum]

Don Pedro de la Mancha Y Come el Papele de Mierda Cabeza de Vaca,

Actually, the restriction against "Clerigos Y Religiosos" from owning or operating mines was set in the "Recopilación de las Leyes de los Reynos de Indias" LAW IV, TITLE XII, BOOK I. That means the restriction was in effect in EVERY Spanish held territory (from Europe, and the Western Hemisphere, all the way to the Philippines).

Senor Spring de la Anuncion de Salir del Armario,

There may be some hidden candlesticks here and there, and some silver and gold ingots in the hole too, but if the caches were as large as rumored, it's hard for me to swallow that the brothers or their agents haven't recovered them in the past 250 years. The most obvious explanation is that the the caches are small and not worth the trouble.

SOMEBODY HASN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION IN CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAASS!

Remember this quote:

I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service

So, if every Jesuit Mission/Church has such adornments, and just about every Mission had a attached Church ............... you can do the math. How many Jesuit Missions were in Nueva Espana? A LOT MORE THAN A FEW CANDLESTICKS. Forget about mining for a second, and think how wealthy the Jesuits were in the New World. All the proofs Roy and I have shown you over the years of the immense wealth of the Order before their expulsion. The only things the Spanish found when they arrested the Jesuits on 25 June 1767, were the things that could not be hidden (livestock, buildings, land, etc). Hardly a trace of their vast wealth was found. When Fray Junipero Sera was given access to anything he wanted of what was left from the Jesuits to found the California Missions, he found very little. None of the gold and silver attested to by all the Jesuit Fathers Journals (of which none came out until many years after).

So, prior to 25 June 1767, we know they had a lot of wealth. On the day of their arrest (25 June 1767) none of that wealth was there. The Spanish took very careful inventories of everything they found in every Jesuit Property. In some cases they dug in sewers and turned up graves looking for the wealth they knew was there. They questioned the Fathers very harshly, to the point of torture (due to their frustration in not finding the treasures they knew were there). They found very little. Where did it go? Here's one place:



Mike

 

[Springfield]

... SOMEBODY HASN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION IN CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAASS!

Teacher, we know all that, but we still have questions. Perhaps with all the chalkboard cacophony, you got dust in your ears and didn't hear ... let me repeat.

" ... focus on that happened during the Jesuits' run on the far northern Mexican frontier and especially in today's American Southwest. Cutting to the chase, it's my feeling the Jesuits' mining output was much less than many claim [?1] - they likely primarily recovered silver used for church paraphernalia and the financing of further mission expansion. Significant, but not deserving of the legends of 'vast hoards'.

There may be some hidden candlesticks here and there, and some silver and gold ingots in the hole too, but if the caches were as large as rumored, it's hard for me to swallow that the brothers or their agents haven't recovered them in the past 250 years.[?2] The most obvious explanation is that the the caches are small [?3] and not worth the trouble. Another answer would be that the caches have already been retrieved secretly [?4] - which would make the treasure hunters' interest moot.

Another question - unless there was collusion, how did the Jesuits operate these southwestern mines without the knowledge of the Spanish? [?5] Sure, the brothers may have gypped the Crown out of its share, but how were the locations of the mines kept secret?"

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

dang gollum...you almost have me convinced.