JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[buscar]

The following information came from the records found at the Fort Whipple Veteran Hospital, Prescott, Arizona…

Harry Leslie France: born Jan. 11, 1921

Died: Jan. 26, 1974

Social Security Number: 295-12-6698. State where number was issued: Ohio (before 1951).

Branch of Service: UNK

EOD = May 5, 1941

RAD = Jun 22, 1945

Service Number: 150-19-074

Disabilities: F. B. 2nd to TB.

Duodenal Ulcer = Service Connected

Malaria = Not Service Connected

Harry’s (home) address: Box 785 Grand Ave, Glendale, Arizona.

After sharing this information with Tracy L Hawkins, he said that it had to be the same Harry France, because Harry lived in Glendale. And, when Harry got sick, they packed him out of the mountains to First Water and then drove him to the Fort Whipple Veteran Hospital in Prescott where he died 10 days later.

Tracy also said that the date 1964 or 65 found in Bob Ward’s book “Ripples of Lost Echoes” did not appear correct but the rest of the story was close.

There's gold in them thar stories and that's where most of it is

buscar

 

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[cactusjumper]

Buscar,

"...I do not know Joe’s intentions for telling the story the way he did..."

Welcome to TNet. Good to see you posting here.

My intentions for telling that fictional story, were simple. I was trying to illustrate how easy if is to create a treasure story that is based on history, geography and local legends. I made it a point to keep repeating that it was "just a story".

As for Harry, I have only seen two documents that support a Harry La France existing in Arizona. One is a 1930 Census, and the other is the death certificate you have posted, which uses his legal name, I presume. The 1930 Census uses Harry La France. That is also on the signature that appears on the back of a topographic map that my Uncle Chuck had. I have that map now.

Ted DeGrazia had contact with the La France family. He signed one of his book to them. I have that book. The Harry La France that shows up in the 1930 Census was living in a hotel in Tucson......DeGrazia's home town.

No doubt it's just a coincidence, but it certainly makes for some interesting speculation.

When you tie in the Stone Maps, and the fact that Harry's path took him right through the trail maps, it starts to get even more interesting. Probably just another coincidence. Web's of strange coincidences are what create's legends and many fables.

Using my version of the trail maps overlaid on a topographic map, I wonder if your boulder picture shows up anywhere.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Mike is correct that there are a number of cave of gold bars stories.

Here is one of the best, most informative, threads on the subject of Harry's cave:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187 ....

Thanks Joe. I've seen that thread before.

 

[Rawhide]

This is what Im talking about. I had to post to get this one on my radar. I have a lot Im reading right now. wow.

 

[gollum]

Springfield,

The book with the best assortment of Gold Bar Cave Stories I suggest reading Bob Ward's Book "Ripples of Lost Echoes"

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

The book with the best assortment of Gold Bar Cave Stories I suggest reading Bob Ward's Book "Ripples of Lost Echoes"

Best-Mike

Thank you Mike.

 

[desertmoons]

I've a somewhat esoteric question. It is commonly thought the Jesuit referred to the Natives as children. I wonder if this reference applied to non Christianized natives only. Lets say they had successfully converted a tribe or nation, would they still refer to those folks as the children..or would they somehow be considered all grown up. Thanks for any thoughts on this fine point of interpretation .

 

[cactusjumper]

Casca,

What does the dog head on the left side of the picture mean? I am also wondering if the man with the knife, as if getting ready to stab someone, on the right side of the picture (towards the top) has some meaning.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Rawhide]

Hi Joe,

I love this particular rock. I dont get on here much anymore. I do enjoy you guys and the info. I cant always follow it.

I ask myself the same thing, joe. What does it all mean?

The dog. There is several, some you cant see in this picture. He appears to be part of a set of symbols. There is at least two sets of dogs down below leading up to this rock.

I believe the dog(or horse) may be a reference to a constellation. This could be used as a map or a measurement. Let me try to post some better pictures of dogs.

The man with the knife is exactly what I see to. This man appears several times on this mountain. He is facing different directions and appears to be a sentinel of some sort. There is little pointer stones associated with the men on the mountain, they all point to known locations. So the guy with the knife could mean the area is watched, or giving a general direction to the next camp. This is a camp site and maybe more.

You may see a dogs head up top of both photos. The knife was used a few times also on the mountain. I think it is a false lead.

I cant say for certain it is Jesuit, but I feel may be of Jesuit design. I do confuse the Jesuits with the Padre's and Franciscans.

I removed the main picture as it was confusing at best. The ones shared here could be seen from a good distance. The lighting was bad for both pictures and not the right angles. My point is I see a heart with a flame on top. There is a dog/horse and dove also above it. The flaming heart may be of Jesuit design. I know what the treasure books say about dogs. But I have not studied the dog enough to say for sure. Only he is important.

 

[Mastiff4me]

Whoosh! Good reading. I wish I had more time. I just read the first and last page here. Just, because you asked (and forgive me if this was already mentioned, not sure) I believe it 99.9999999%. Okay, I will make it an even 100. I believe the majority of treasure has been stashed not only in very old wells, but in tunnels (like in Mexican villages where mining/mints were) that were underground and led to the Catholic Church. They guarded these areas well. Well, well. What do you think about this? I guess I will have to read later to find outs fun post! Thanks.

 

[Oroblanco]

Mastiff4me - there are a large number of posts which were in this thread, which got deleted for what ever reason(s), especially from the skeptic side of the debate. It was a better debate with those missing posts IMHO.

I guess some people can never just admit when they are wrong.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

DOG = DOG STAR, SIRIUS.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

GUYS, "google" Masonic Astronomy/Stella Theology, on how it is "KEYED IN"; There is MASTER GRID SYSTEM that SEA-faring men, and LAND Surveyors use...

 

[Mastiff4me]

Mastiff4me - there are a large number of posts which were in this thread, which got deleted for what ever reason(s), especially from the skeptic side of the debate. It was a better debate with those missing posts IMHO. I guess some people can never just admit when they are wrong.

Thanks, Oro. Have you heard from our friend with the BiG sombrero? Wink.

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello All

I think much of the debate has been side tracked from the original context of question? Perhaps that is part of the fun?

However the Question asked Jesuit treasures are they real? It is a very ambiguous question meaning different things to different people? Being open to many being answers correct depending in what context the question has been read.

After been in Jesuit archives in Rome. Met in person the head of the Jesuit archive who is Irish in Rome I can give my take on that question.

The Jesuits was a very industrious order and still is. However you must understand the Old Jesuit Order was more focused on evangelizing the Americas through by creating secular communities that became self sufficient in agriculture, industry to point their success became a threat to monarchies as it showed successfully that a society could exist and prosper without ultimate control of the crown who operated divine right dictatorships. Jesuit Reductions appeared in South America as well as other parts of the Americas challenged all this because they was successful and prosperous. Evidence can still be seen today with the remains of the old Jesuit order and institutions all over the new world.

In the context of Jesuits of the old order being wealthy with treasure amassed through industry the answer is yes.

In the context of Did the Jesuits of the old order own mines? No they did not need to.

There is no evidence the Jesuits ever directly mined. However they provided the knowledge and expertise in many fields of mining through teaching and supporting industries such as metal extraction and smelting techniques and silver smithing. Which in turn for providing such services to miners obtained them vast mineral wealth to fund their enterprise in the Americas. They became so wealthy and influential they even have their own army in Paraguay which helped fuel the fears of the monarchy. They had become a threat to the very existence of the Crown.

As for Order leaving and hiding wealth? Yes each Jesuit Reductions had their own autonomy to certain extent and much of the localized wealth was plundered, Some properties appropriated by the Franciscans and Dominicans. The scope of their expulsion yet so complete and their treasure in many cases was already hidden as was the policy of Jesuits in regards to storing of wealth before the expulsion. So in the context is their Jesuit treasure to be found? Yes in some respects.

After the expulsion the New Order changed in its doctrine to enhance evangelizing the world through promoting Education. Many famous people through history studied in their collages world wide. Today the The modern Jesuit Order is more of eduction system and its influence is seen by the amount of politicians and people of note that have passed through one of its many institutions world wide. In some respect their impact is more far reaching today than ever through the efforts of the old order.

Corp

 

[Peyton Manning]

Whoosh! Good reading. I wish I had more time. I just read the first and last page here. Just, because you asked (and forgive me if this was already mentioned, not sure) I believe it 99.9999999%. Okay, I will make it an even 100. I believe the majority of treasure has been stashed not only in very old wells, but in tunnels (like in Mexican villages where mining/mints were) that were underground and led to the Catholic Church. They guarded these areas well. Well, well. What do you think about this? I guess I will have to read later to find outs fun post! Thanks.

I have not a clue what this is about. I just want to say that this post is grammatically perfect. No typos, no poor use of language. Kudos to mastiff

 

[Mastiff4me]

I have not a clue what this is about. I just want to say that this post is grammatically perfect. No typos, no poor use of language. Kudos to mastiff

Thank you so much, Jeff. That is very nice. Jodi (the girl who loves her Mastiffs).

 

[gollum]

Corporate,

For those of you who have not kept up with the ongoing battle of whether or not religious types owned mines in the New World (which was strictly against Crown and Church Policies), here is a little doozie from the King of Spain:

"The King.- Whereas, by cedula of 14th of March, 1703, I commanded the Duke of Albuquerque, my present Viceroyof the Provinces of New Spain, to report to me on the excesses committed by the Administrators of the Mines of Guanahuato, and on their having taken the Mine of Rayas from Don Lorenzo Canoand having given it to Doctor Don Juan Diaz de Bracamonte, Presbyter, in compliance with which, he gave an account of what had been done, and stated that in that kingdomthey had not enforced the prohibition of the law which prescribes that clerigos cannot hold mines, since in many reales, there are clerigos that are miners, either because of their having acquired them by patrimony, or because necessity has caused the matter to be overlooked. And having seen in my Royal Council of the Indies all the papers on the subject, and heard on it my Fiscal, and having in view LAW IV, TITLE XII, BOOKI of the Recopiliacion de Indias, which prohibits Religiosos y Clerigos from working mines; and considering this to be as grave an offense as it is declared to be in the law, I have resolved to order and command, as by these presents I do order and command, my Viceroys of New Spain and Peru, and I require charge the Archbishops and Bishops of the two kingdoms to observe what is contained in LAW IV, TITLE XII, BOOK I above cited, and to cause it to be observed in the form precisely as it is expressed, the said Viceroys and ecclesiastic prelates, of both kingdoms and provinces ................................ blah, blah, blah ..................... on account of the grave injury which results therefrom to my Royal Treasury and to the better administration and preservation of the mines..........................."

Think that if the King had to make a special cedula, that religious mining was only sporadic and uncommon?

Best - Mike

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Gollum.

Interesting statement indeed but If you look in detail the The cedula of 14th of March, 1703 statement says Clerigos that are miners? as per report on the Excesses committed by the Administrators of the Mines of Guanahuato?

Clerigos on clarification in short means either a member of the regular clergy ( monks and friars ordered) and the secular clergy ( deacons and priests diocesan ). It does not refer to what particular order. I have no doubt various Orders had in some form or another their fingers in the pie so to speak. but the date The cedula of 14th of March, 1703 does not fit in with the Jesuit Presence in Guanahuato. So it does not specifically point the finger at the Jesuits in particular.

The Jesuit Presence as per Book churches of Mexico 1530 -1810 by Joseph Armstrong Baird 1962. as stated on page 89 states the Jesuits first came to Guanahuato in 1732 and stayed in local houses until they began to build the church in 1747 and college in 1744. So the above Kings cedula of 1703 mentioning Excesses committed by the Administrators of the Mines of Guanahuato was at time when Jesuits was not even there.

In the Oxford University Press book Why Have you come Here? The Jesuit evangelization of native America. 2006. Nicolas P Cushner professor of empire Collage New York. States in regard to the Jesuits in Guanahuato on page 133 indeed states the silver mines of Guanahuato and taxco and the ranches and haricendias paid for the Construction of the collage and churches of the Jesuits.It does not state the mines and harciendas and ranches were owned or operated by Jesuits that only they were the source of the funding via donations to the Church and Collage.

On page 49 of the Book Enjoy Guanahuato states Dona Josefa Teresa de Busto y moya in 1732 with fourteen other miners funded creation of the collage and to open with 5 Jesuits the first collage in her own home, the Hospice of the Holy Trinity. Later funds were donated to build a collage and church.

As for the veiled statement since in many reales, there are clerigos that are miners, either because of their having acquired them by patrimony, or because necessity has caused the matter to be overlooked. It is not exactly a smoking gun pointed solely at the Jesuit Order either?

As for Jesuits really actually owning mines is moot point because the Jesuits was generally respected by the labour force that worked in the mines. The Jesuits controlled the Labour Force thus Mine owners prudently supported the Jesuits who controlled many supporting activities of mining thus gaining their own share of the mineral wealth.

Corp

 

[Mastiff4me]

Corp. You have indeed done your investigation(s). Wow. Your last paragraph, was spot on. I grew up between two borders. Having spent a significant time with the locals and learning their stories, not just reading about the tales told from a third party in literature (which, I readily do, too).' I came to my own concrete conclusions through this personal knowledge and experience of families who have lived in small mining villages for hundreds of generations. One village, in particular stands out for me, where my entire family lives today (Mexico).' But, here, what a fabulous set of opinions! I still have only read a few pages, but, I like that there is so many brilliant people here. Seriously. Bravo to you all. Now, I will step out of your conversation.