JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

hello to all
can someone respond to me about the tumacacori treasure. while you are all trying to figure out maps and letters, i have some info and insight on the treasure... thx mike tucson a.z.
 

Good afternoon Tumacocori gold #1: While personally I do believe that they exist, may I suggest checking into this before making serious plans to go there for the moment.

http://www.gazettenet.com/2011/01/26/arizona-border-town-frustrated-over-response-violence

Also -->

PHILLIPS: Kill U.S. officers, the mission of Mexico's ruthless drug cartels. Drug lords want to sell their wares in the U.S. and they are ready to shoot and kill American police officers who tried to stop them. A chilling report from the U.S.-Mexico border.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIPS: Mexico's ruthless drug cartel leaders say they want to kill U.S. officers all because cops want to stop them from drug trafficking. CNN's Thelma Gutierez reports from the Nogales, Ariz ona near the U.S.-Mexico border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): On the (INAUDIBLE) of the bus, two off duty officers were out here roping cattle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're roping cattle.

GUTIERREZ: They noticed something suspicious. What did they see exactly?

OFFICER MARIO MORALES, NOGALES POLICE DEPARTMENT: From my understanding, they saw a vehicle drive in rather suspiciously. They went to the tree line. I believe they saw when it was loaded and popped the trunk and they were bundles being thrown in the trunk and back seat. And as the vehicle exited, they were intercepted.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): The off duty officers see 230 pounds of marijuana that evening. Two days after the bust, Nogales police chief, Jeffrey Kirkham says his department received an ominous message through an informant in Mexico.

CHIEF JEFFREY KIRKHAM, NOGALES POLICE DEPARTMENT: That message was brought forward that the drug runners through the cartels that we were to look the other way when we are not working, when we're off duty, we're not in uniform and that if we didn't, that our officers will be targeted.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): Targeted? As in killed?

KIRKHAM: Yes.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): Kirkham says the two off duty officers were named in the threat and so was the Nogales Police Department.

(on camera): Is this the first time that you received this type of a threat since you've been police chief here?

KIRKHAM: Well, not only since I have here but this is the first time that the police officers individually and as Nogales Police officers have ever been threatened by anyone in drug trafficking.

GUTIERREZ (voice-over): The chief says his force is on heightened alert and is even asking officers to carry their weapons off duty and encouraging them to wear body armor.

MORALES: It does worry me because from the information we gather, that a lot of these people are former military trained army personnel. I know they said any officer while being off duty, he better just look the other way.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): How do you square that? How do you deal with that?

MORALES: You're an officer 24-7, just like a doctor. Doctor, 24-7, 365 days a year. I mean, you see something, we have to react. It's an oath that we take.

GUTIERREZ: But now they say we people will come after you. We will target you if you do?

MORALES: That will not stop us from doing our job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUTIERREZ: Kyra, there is lot of take about National Guard being deployed to the Arizona border, just take a look at where I'm standing right now. I'm in Nogales, Arizona, and 250 yards away, you can see the border fence and beyond that is Nogales, Mexico.

Chief Kirkham says he welcome any man power that could come out here that could help him protect his community but he says if any of those plans are being made in Washington, he hasn't heard about it out here in Arizona. Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Our Thelma Gutierrez, thanks so much.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You realize that they are talking specifically about the Tumacocori area
 

Mike, I later noticed that you are from Tucson, Az, You personally know what I have posted. For what may be involved and ready to spill over into that area -->

http://groups.google.com/group/nafbpo-members?hl=en

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FORMER BORDER PATROL OFFICERS
Visit our website: http://www.nafbpo.org
Foreign News Report

[email protected]

http://www.blogdelnarco.com/

On the blog del Narco, click on the heading "NARCO" and to the left, on top, you will see TRANSLATIONS" , click on it for the language of your choice. Usual thingie, scroll up and down for the report of your choice, click on it.

Perhaps today may not be the best time to dig up a huge treasure in that area, but one can get ready.

Whatcha got in Mind to talk about?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Joe,

The early years of the Jesuits in the New World were one of Father O'Malley's specialties. He has since moved on (in his own words). My source at Loyola Marymount was the one who referred me to him. I NEVER ERRONEOUSLY implied anything. I stated fact.

Just because there is no corroborating documented evidence for something does not mean it doesn't exist. Take for instance ODESSA. Much more recent and the Germans were just as detailed as the Jesuits in their record keeping. First let me say that I am in no way comparing Jesuits to Nazi SS Troops. We can document every frog's hair battle scar of the Germans in WWII. The Nazis even had detailed counts of exactly how many people were in each cattle car on the trains to the concentration camps, yet, there is no mentioning of ODESSA. Granted, it wasn't formed until late in the war, but the word had to have been passed to all the SS Members, so they could try to escape. Most every historian agrees that ODESSA exists/existed to relocate SS Men and eventually rebuild the Reich. Where is that paper trail? Maybe you think that ODESSA is also a figment of everyone's imagination?

Best-Mike
 

gollum said:
Joe,

The early years of the Jesuits in the New World were one of Father O'Malley's specialties. He has since moved on (in his own words). My source at Loyola Marymount was the one who referred me to him. I NEVER ERRONEOUSLY implied anything. I stated fact.

Just because there is no corroborating documented evidence for something does not mean it doesn't exist. Take for instance ODESSA. Much more recent and the Germans were just as detailed as the Jesuits in their record keeping. First let me say that I am in no way comparing Jesuits to Nazi SS Troops. We can document every frog's hair battle scar of the Germans in WWII. The Nazis even had detailed counts of exactly how many people were in each cattle car on the trains to the concentration camps, yet, there is no mentioning of ODESSA. Granted, it wasn't formed until late in the war, but the word had to have been passed to all the SS Members, so they could try to escape. Most every historian agrees that ODESSA exists/existed to relocate SS Men and eventually rebuild the Reich. Where is that paper trail? Maybe you think that ODESSA is also a figment of everyone's imagination?

Best-Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

I believe we are still talking about Colonial Mexico here. If you want to qualify your statement as meaning South America, then you are correct. If not, I must repeat my statement that Father O'Malley never researched the history of the Jesuits in Mexico.

Because of that, it is unlikely that he will even comment on that history. I am very familiar with his work and I'm am familiar with the subject of the new book he is writing. If you believe he is an expert on the Jesuits of Colonial Mexico, I believe you are mistaken.

Take care,

Joe
 

Don Jose,

Siciliano & Texan :dontknow:

Father O'Malley has not researched Jesuit history in Mexico. That makes him a poor source for that subject. On the other hand, he is probably one of the best sources in the world for early Jesuit history.

There are many Jesuits and non-Jesuit historians who have made Mexico their life's work. If you are going to develop a source for that subject, and quote them here, Father O'Malley is probably not the guy to bring forward.

If Mike want's to continue using Father O'Malley as a source for this discussion, it's up to him. I have no desire to have my conclusions about Jesuit treasure and mining shift to South America. I have said it many times.......not my area of research.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Don Jose,

There are many Jesuits and non-Jesuit historians who have made Mexico their life's work. If you are going to develop a source for that subject, and quote them here, Father O'Malley is probably not the guy to bring forward.

Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Point taken and agreed with Joe.
Thom
 

Good Morning Thom,

Hope all is well for you, and you're not freezing your burro off up there. Wind is blowing here this morning, after a few nice days, and I expect it will be pretty cool in sunny Arizona.

Take care,

Joe
 

Morning Ole dog: True, but sometimes the source cannot be given due to many factors, such as confdence, or a similar source. I am in that situation myself, which is unfair to cactus joe, my potential steak provider.

Don Jose de--- etc.
 

Don Jose,

That's very true in many cases, but not so here. Mike has used Father O'Malley as a source on this forum.

I have only stated the facts as to his expertise on the Jesuit history of Mexico. That in no way denigrates his stature as a Jesuit historian. In that regard, I have the utmost respect for the man.

Take care,

Joe
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Morning Ole dog: True, but sometimes the source cannot be given due to many factors, such as confdence, or a similar source. I am in that situation myself, which is unfair to cactus joe, my potential steak provider.

Don Jose de--- etc.
Click to expand...

Don Jose,
I understand the reasons why you cannot divulge too much information, and it does for the time being make your case a bit shy on evidence. But there are some of us who are pretty firm in our beliefs about the subject, as well as your find that just cannot be swayed. We know that the truth will in time prevail.

am expecting to see a copy of the book soon.

Your snowed in friend in Colorado.
Thom
 

Thom,

If he expects to see that steak anytime in his future, I better see a signed first edition coming my way. Not to worry Don Jose, I will pay for it. I should think that it would be leather-bound if you publish it in Mexico. :read2:

Take care,

Joe
 

Gentle Men: Regarding the book, may I remind you that I have been in Mexico since the 50's. Unfortunately I have learned the OLD Mexican way of "Manana, Manana, siempre manana", not the present go go go life which they have adopted form the US.

In many ways the agriculture areas of Sonora and Sinaloa are so similar to the Calif. central valley, including 4-6 lane highways, that residents of Calif would feel right at home, except for the signs being in Spanish.

Hmm on second thought, the signs are prob in Spanish also now.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Manana, manana, siempre manana = tomorrow, tomorow, always tomorrow"
 

Hola amigos,
<Yes we are home again and back online> This is an extremely long reply, as I am trying to catch up on many previous posts - so I have to beg your indulgence.
Cactusjumper wrote
A few Jesuits may have been involved in mining in Mexico, and used their Indian charges to do the labor but, IMHO, it was out of the norm.
There may be some church artifacts that were hidden away around the time of the expulsion, but theft by the soldiers and local natives probably accounts for most of that......treasure.

I hear stories from people who followed these Spanish markers and trails to treasure, but not one of them has ever found anything that can be authenticated. It's all stories. Most of the time it's "I know someone" or "I have a friend who knows someone"......etc.
Click to expand...

Gosh, after all we have been over in these threads? A "FEW" Jesuits involved? No treasures found? I must test your patience and re-post some of the info that has been posted previously, for apparently the content was missed or misinterpreted. Joe also posted, in reply to our amigo Gollum:

Being ["harshly" questioned] by the Spanish concerning mining or treasures has absolutely nothing to do with the factual truth of those subjects. After all, the Spanish soldiers were sent into the Jesuit cess-pools diving for evidence. As you know, they found......crap.
Click to expand...

9 Galvez to Serra Sta Ana Oct 10 1768 and Galvez decree La Paz Nov 19 1768 The decree recites the discovery of various amounts of gold dust and of gold and silver bullion accumulated by the Jesuits and not accounted for to the royal treasury as required by law. It recites further as fact the maintenance of the missions by the trabajo <labor> and sudor <sweat> de los miserables Indios at the same time that the Indians are neither fed nor clothed. Wherefore it is ordered that the gold and silver aforesaid <7650 pesos> be converted to the use of the Indians and that sinodos <salaries> of padres etc be paid from the Pious Fund MA Museo Docs Rel d las Mis de Califs Qto i
California under Spain and Mexico, 1535-1847, Irving Berdine Richman pp 405

This was a discovery of gold and silver bullion, concealed by the Jesuits of California Baja. The same province of such pretended poverty. Over 7000 pesos in 1768 is neither chump-change nor crap, Are we to believe that this was the whole of their treasures? Why had it been concealed and not reported as required by law? No Jesuit had "broken" under that "torture" to reveal the existence of this bullion. The "roundup" of the Jesuits was hardly anything like the sting operation that some have attempted to paint too - in one case the Jesuits even had tried arming their Indios to resist the Spanish authorities by force, and yes this was in Mexico. You cannot expect that some Jesuit would publish a confession of having mines and treasures hidden, when the Order fully expected to be able to return at some point in future to reclaim them.

Cactusjumper also wrote
My comments about the wealth of the Jesuit Order have been focused on the missions of Northern Mexico. Which of, or how many, of those missions show records of "massive wealth"? Many of those missions were doing very poorly in that era. Those original records still exist to this day.
Click to expand...

It is an error to try to detach the Jesuit missions of Northern Mexico from their world-wide operations; their Baja missions were established to help maintain operations in the Philippines, the entrada into Arizona was originally intended for further establishing connections and support to those Baja missions and ultimately the operations across the Pacific. The incomes from the various missions and colleges went to Rome, not directly into the pockets of the missionaries. How much of the records can be trusted to be accurate bookkeeping, and not false representations to hide profits? I have a suggested publication for you, which I will get to in a moment; you may be shocked at the wealth held by the Jesuits on their expulsion.

We have gone over the mines; one example being the famous Vekol mine shown to Capt Walker by his Pima friends; this had been a Jesuit mine and was "lost" but the Pimas had not forgotten it's location. Several of the Jesuit colleges of Mexico owned and operated MINES, and some of the "haciendas" listed were not farms but were MILLS for crushing and smelting ores. What do silver mines produce? It is a poor argument to say that while we know the Order owned and operated a number of rich silver mines, there is no proof that anything like treasure was accumulated! The incomes from mines you will not find listed in most Jesuit records, even though the mines must have been extracting metals - it was not sold and thus not claimed as "income". Many of us are familiar with that sort of logic, for our own income taxes.

Cactusjumper also wrote
How do they know that the metals were shipped to Rome? Did the Jesuits put shipping labels on their loot?
Click to expand...
Smuggling of gold was reported, in crates marked "chocolates" rather interesting when you consider that many Jesuits spent a lot of money on "chocolates"; that mass of treasure found in Rio has been discussed; tremendous fortunes were found held in various banks (especially in Holland) in the name of the Jesuit Order on their being suppressed. We can go round and round here, while you may keep on demanding to see a modern treasure hunter with authenticated Jesuit treasure, but as Mike mentioned - that we have not found them is not proof that they do not exist! There are even reports of Jesuits returning and extracting some of the loot that had been previously hidden, as in South America and yes even in Arizona.

Cactusjumper also wrote, in reply to our mutual amigo Don Jose,
Don Jose,

Don't get me wrong. I have always believed you have found something important in Mexico. It may very well be Tayopa. What I don't believe is that a find as big as that was ever worked in complete secrecy.....by Jesuits or anyone else, but especially by the Jesuits or their coadjutors, temporal or spiritual.
Click to expand...

Would you consider something the size of Paraguay as something "big"? The Jesuits had set up a virtual theocratic state there, and by keeping their tax payments a tenth of what they should have been (sending one dollar per Indian per year was the requirement, so they sent one tenth of the amount corresponding to the actual adult male population) even the geography of the land was kept a virtual secret from the Spanish and Portuguese authorities. A Real of mines in a remote valley would not be that difficult to keep away from prying Royal eyes, remember one of their pack trains carrying silver bullion was only encountered by accident when a Spanish explorer landed on the Pacific coast in a desperate search for food and water.

Gollum wrote
Joe,

I can't speak for Don Guacamole or Tayopa, but as far as many of the Jesuit Churches and Missions, if one reads only what most people read in text books one would have the impression that all the Missions and Churches were poor to the point of being almost destitute without the few alms (200 pesos) the King of Spain provided as a yearly stipend.

Read the works of Bolton, Burrus, and Polzer (as I know you have), and you will see that is the impression they give. It is only when you read a little more in depth (Och, Nentvig, Pfefferkorn, etc) that you get a real idea of what was possessed.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct - the pretended poverty was absolutely vital to keep those donations and tithes flowing. While it may seem incredible that men would live in utter poverty while accumulating and shipping out masses of silver, we are not talking about ordinary men but those whose belief system demands such hypocrisy.

Cactusjumper wrote
Father Och is not such a positive argument as you seem to believe. Father Nentvig is often less than believable.
Click to expand...
On what grounds do you impeach our Jesuit witnesses? You discount most (if not all) non-Jesuit sources as unreliable, and this appears to be like the familiar 'selective hearing' - to consider only those sources which agree with the Jesuit apologists.

Cactusjumper also wrote
Father Polzer did not believe in the existence of treasure (from Jesuit mines) in Northern Mexico. On the other hand, he did like to discuss the legends with those who did.
Click to expand...

Even the apologist Fr Polzer admitted of the possibility that some Jesuit treasure(s) in the form of Church ornaments may yet be un-discovered, as was posted previously. There is reason to believe that the Indians themselves concealed the various treasures, at the bidding of their beloved padres. It is recorded that the Pimas brought out a number of silver ornaments on the return of a pair of Jesuits to Arizona in the mid-1800's, which they had kept concealed for near a century. Likewise, the Vekol mine was known to them and only shown to their great friend Capt Walker. Many of the Jesuit treasure legends can be traced to Indians who shared the secrets with earlier treasure hunters, despite the prohibition that they were only to reveal such secrets to their "confessors" (padres).

Cactusjumper also wrote, in reply to our mutual friend Mike <Gollum>
As I see it, there is more circumstantial written "evidence" for leprechauns having pots of gold than Jesuit coadjutor's being involved/working in Jesuit mines in Mexico, or is it your position now that they may have been working for themselves?
Click to expand...

I would suggest reading The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, available on Jstor; you will find that several of the Jesuit colleges in fact owned and operated mines as was posted earlier. One colegio had mines as its only source of income, at least on paper. As to whether it was a priest or a lay coadjutor who acted as foreman, even this bit may be not too important as the Jesuits also had Novices (usually natives) and trusted Indios who acted as foremen and overseers. In fact it was the overly brutal behavior of several of these Indio foremen that lay at the root of at least two Pima rebellions, though not only those cruel men - the padres were also responsible. Once you note that Jesuits were operating mines, then re-examine the published arguments and denials from our sources like Polzer and you may wish to impeach a different set of witnesses.

As for the Franciscans, we do not have the same amount of records to examine; however it would be well to consider that 1680 Pueblo Indian revolt, and yes this occurred in Northern Mexico. The Pueblos, some of the most peace-loving people on Earth, made it a point to kill as many padres as they could lay hands on, to defile and destroy every trace of the missions; and even when the Reconquista got them to the peace table, they insisted that the padres confine their efforts to agricultural pursuits, NO mining or there would be no peace!

Wow, sorry for the extreme length of this reply, it has been a fascinating subject (for me) and I hope that my poking of the nasal protuberance into the debate can be forgiven again. You are all certainly free and welcome to your own beliefs and conclusions on whether there were any Jesuit mines and/or treasures, and I will hold no offence if the evidence does not sway your convictions. I hope for the same consideration on your part, when I must say that I find the Jesuits to be convicted of mines, enslavement and yes treasures, and will continue to search for them. It is politically incorrect to state that the Jesuits were mining in the southwest, there are plenty of historians and apologists who will deny such, but on the other hand these same Jesuits ought to be credited with their mineral discoveries and with being the first Europeans to mine and smelt metals in the southwest. Using Indios as virtual slave labor was not unique to Jesuits, all of the religious Orders did so as authorized under Spanish law, and the Jesuits did their best to keep their Indian laborers rather than lose them to the "evil" Spanish or Portuguese miners where they would "learn every vice" even though paid fairly well. Clearly, we see the missionaries quite differently, but this is due in part to differences in viewpoint. Consider how the Jesuits would be viewed by those Indios forced (yes forced) to labor by the missionaries? The padres didn't whip their recalcitrants, they had an Indio of trusted position do the actual whipping, and the punished was then required to literally kiss the hand of the man who beat him and thank him for the correction! :o

***One last bit; while our border regions may well be quite dangerous today, it will not remain so forever, and after all as Xerxes said - "Only by taking great risks can great achievements be accomplished." Who ever said that the Wild West was dead, after all? ***

Thank you all for your patience and indulgence, I hope that you all will find the treasures that you seek - even the leprechauns' gold! <I will have to tell you some time of what may well be the origins of that myth! :wink:>
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"Seldom are men granted good sense and good fortune at the same time." --Hasdrubal Haedus, Carthaginian senator

Coffee?
:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Great job Roy.

Either believe or don't. I and others see where the preponderance of the evidence points. I don't care one way or another.

I know what I have seen. I know the people I know and what they have found. I could give less than a crap if you believe them or not. I am not a naive child, and am a good judge of character. I have had countless people try and BS me over the years. I have been very successful in ferreting them out.

Joe,

One thing that has always bothered me about your disbelief in Jesuit Wealth. I am fairly certain (correct me if I am mistaken) you firmly believe in Harry LaFrance's Cave of Gold Bars, due to your uncle's involvement. Maybe also Ed Piper, Bob Brady, and Walter Perrine (not sure about them). Where do you think those bars came from? Maybe Spanish? I could see that, but why would Spanish gold bars be hidden in an area where several legends talk about hidden Jesuit wealth? A bit of a coincidence wouldn't you say?

Best-Mike
 

Gollum <Mike> wrote
Either believe or don't. I and others see where the preponderance of the evidence points. I don't care one way or another.

I know what I have seen. I know the people I know and what they have found. I could give less than a crap if you believe them or not. I am not a naive child, and am a good judge of character. I have had countless people try and BS me over the years. I have been very successful in ferreting them out.
Click to expand...

It is hard to disbelieve what you see with your own eyes. It is harder to get someone to believe that has not seen of course, but other bits of evidence tell a tale too; I am referring to the piles of slag from smelting at various Jesuit missions. This smelting must have produced metal, and smuggling it out was a major difficulty. It seems logical (to me) that there almost has to be rather large amounts of silver and possibly gold as well, which remains undiscovered.
Roy
 

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