JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Allo cowboy: There certainly are, such as up at Tayopa and in the overnight, underground chambers of the small missions that served as the clandestine route to Rome. They were left there when the Expulsion order became effective. I have mentioned the location of three (3).

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[Oroblanco]

Allo cowboy: There certainly are, such as up at Tayopa and in the overnight, underground chambers of the small missions that served as the clandestine route to Rome. They were left there when the Expulsion order became effective. I have mentioned the location of three (3).

Don Jose de la Mancha

I even wonder about the Victorio Peak treasure true origins. Could it have been illicit bullion of our good Jesuit padres? Or Franciscans, like Padre La Rue? We will never know.
Roy

 

[Old Dog]

Roy,
Welcome home old friend.
As far as what the origins of the afore mentioned VP hoard...
It really doesn't matter as there is enough evidence elsewhere...

 

[gollum]

Allo cowboy: There certainly are, such as up at Tayopa and in the overnight, underground chambers of the small missions that served as the clandestine route to Rome. They were left there when the Expulsion order became effective. I have mentioned the location of three (3).

Don Jose de la Mancha

I even wonder about the Victorio Peak treasure true origins. Could it have been illicit bullion of our good Jesuit padres? Or Franciscans, like Padre La Rue? We will never know.
Roy

Roy,

I think there is pretty good circumstantial evidence for Victorio Peak being the hiding place of loot pillaged from the Mexican Revolution. There is a small newspaper article from California that talks about Doctor Milton Noss having dinner at the home of a Mr. Emil Holmdahl. Holmdahl being a high ranking officer in the employ of Gen. Pancho Villa. That is a hell of a connection.

As for Joe, I don't have anything against him for not believing what he hasn't seen with his eyes. He doesn't know me well personally. He doesn't know it for a fact, but he knows me about as well as anybody could. With me, what you see is what you get. HAHAHA I know he has some faith in my character, because he personally got me in touch with someone of some importance whom I had been trying to contact, who likes to stay out of the limelight. I'll always be grateful for that.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias Thom and Mike.

I was just concerned that two friends could end up not being friends anymore, over a simple disagreement; when if we were together in person talking around the campfire the results would be very different. That is quite an connection, wish there were some way we could learn the truth.

I hope you both have a very pleasant evening.
your friend in Dakota,
Roy

 

[gollum]

I'm back home now. Still in a full leg cast, but I have access to all my books and my computer. Maybe I can get to answering some questions again.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

[Joe,

One thing that has always bothered me about your disbelief in Jesuit Wealth. I am fairly certain (correct me if I am mistaken) you firmly believe in Harry LaFrance's Cave of Gold Bars, due to your uncle's involvement. Maybe also Ed Piper, Bob Brady, and Walter Perrine (not sure about them). Where do you think those bars came from? Maybe Spanish? I could see that, but why would Spanish gold bars be hidden in an area where several legends talk about hidden Jesuit wealth? A bit of a coincidence wouldn't you say?

Best-Mike]

Good question! Glad you asked.

Back in the day when I still believed in Jesuit Treasure, in fact, everything that you believe in, I was certain that Harry's cave held Jesuit ingots. Trying to get supporting evidence for that belief, I was eventually convinced that just wasn't the case.

Do I still believe in the cave of gold bars?......Yes! It's my theory, since I don't believe in Jesuit treasure anymore, that the gold bar's came from some other source.

There is a web of "circumstantial evidence" that suggests that the gold may have come from Mexico. Among the players in the story are, Pancho Villa, Emil Holmdahl and Ted DeGrazia. I could write a plausible historical novel on the available facts......Very plausible.

The crown on Harry's gold bar, does not really fit with "Royal Fifth" bars for the King. Believe there's another story there, perhaps a crude effort to add value to the bars.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Mike - sorry to hear of your mishap, hope the pharmaceutical pain killers take the edge off and that you will be back in your boots soon. I do wish you would stay away from those two-wheeled death machines though.

Joe - really it is not a major problem whether a treasure once originated with Jesuits or Franciscans or Pancho himself; just as I would not care what they call that rich gold mine when found, if it is loaded with gold who cares?
Roy

 

[Springfield]

..... Do I still believe in the cave of gold bars?......Yes! It's my theory, since I don't believe in Jesuit treasure anymore, that the gold bar's came from some other source.

There is a web of "circumstantial evidence" that suggests that the gold may have come from Mexico. Among the players in the story are, Pancho Villa, Emil Holmdahl and Ted DeGrazia. I could write a plausible historical novel on the available facts......Very plausible.

The crown on Harry's gold bar, does not really fit with "Royal Fifth" bars for the King. Believe there's another story there, perhaps a crude effort to add value to the bars.

Take care,

Joe

This is a subject I'd like to know more about. I have read the thread on the La France cave appearing several years ago on the LDM forum. I have also read the Kollenborn Chronicals 2008 article on 'Cave of Gold Bars'. Does anyone know of additional information that may be available on the 1930's era stories that Kollenborn mentioned? As you may know, following Roosevelt's Gold Confiscation Act of 1933, there were a number of 'gold bars in cave' stories that surfaced during the mid '30's in the Southwest and environs - TX, AR, MO, OK, UT, AZ and at least five here in NM. Whether the tales are linked is not clear, but it's an interesting coincidence.

Thanks, Springfield

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

We did a taped interview with Tracy Hawkins a few years ago and asked him questions for around an hour, which he freely answered. Don't believe there is a better account of Harry's cave of gold bars story......anywhere.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Frankn]

Here's a little tidbit that I ran across in some pirate research. The pirates usually gave the priest a pound of gold to hear his confession.

​

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You will have to send me a copy of that Tracy Hawkins Interview.

You are absolutely correct in that the five pointed crown as described on the bars would have had absolutely no official meaning. Maybe the owner of the bars had marked which ones were meant to go to the king. Maybe the crown was a family emblem or whatever. The ONLY official marking relating to the Royal Quinto would have been on refined bars from the mint. The stamp looks just like the reverse side of a Spanish Coin (see pic of QUINTO Stamp):

You will see that the QUINTO Stamp is done in several places to be sure nobody cut any big chunks off the bar in transit.

I don't know about the Villa Aspect. I buy it for Victorio Peak, because we have the newspaper article linking Doc Noss to Emil Holmdahl in the 1930s. There was so much at VP, I don't really see another appreciable treasure by the same group anywhere else. Remember that Capt. Swanner (a witness to the removal) stated that there was about 93,000,000 ounces of gold bars removed from VP.

Best-Mike

 

[buscar]

Roy,

According to many in the Dutch Hunting Community, I discovered Harry LaFrance's Cave Of Gold Bars on the north side and below Superstition Peak, in 2005. It is said that myself and a small team (six men) removed a fortune of gold bullion from the cave and moved it out of the mountains to a small mine we had purchased for storage. The location of that mine is being kept secret for obvious reasons.

Since then, most of the gold has been sold to anonymous parties, but the records of that sale are being held in a bank vault in Switzerland, along with most of the funds from the sales.

In Apache Junction this is common knowledge and has been for five years now. It is the accepted "history" for the locals, yet it has not been made public knowledge until now. For proof, I can provide pictures of the cave, as well as the gold bars that were removed.

The site has been visited by many treasure hunters and it is well known. In the back of the cave, were stacks of paintings, painted by Ted DeGrazia. There was also a life size, solid gold, statue of a Jesuit priest, which was sold to a private collector.

The Mexican collector who purchased the Jesuit statue, had it authenticated by the well known archaeologist, Felipe R. Solis Olguin. At some point in time, he intends to donate it to the National Anthropology Museum in Mexico City. All of the records of authentication are sealed until the statue is donated to the museum.

The six foot solid gold cross was buried nearby. It came from the Jesuit Mission in the canyon below the cave/mine. I am at work now, but when I get home I will post pictures of mission ruins.

The cave of gold bars was a documented find, and has been mentioned in many books.

All of this information can be confirmed by Dale Provence, who is living somewhere in California on a large gated estate.

Beyond that, I firmly believe the above story is true.

Take care,

Joe

Okay, let’s get you up to date on the incredible story cactusjumper told about…“The Cave of Gold Bars.” To start with, I am not going to pass judgment because I do not know Joe’s intentions for telling the story the way he did . However, the picture of the Triangle Rock he posted is from the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine Forum found at Members Photo Gallery page 14 and belongs to me (buscar) and is Copyrighted, all rights reserved. The permission for use of this photo was not granted. . He could at least have bought me a for use of the photo.


There's gold in them thar stories and that's where most of it is

buscar

 

[gollum]

Buscar,

Without rereading all the associated posts, I believe Joe was pulling people's legs with that story.

Also, I don't think that your pic is what was described in the story. France (La France) went to take cover from the rain under the triangle rock. That doesn't look like much of a rain shelter. He had passed Weaver's Needle on the right by about 1/4 mile and turned right following water, followed that for about 3/4 mile and turned left. Went up the hillside to get to the rock. My guess puts it somewhere between East Boulder and Needle Canyon. Between Blacktop and Weaver's Needle.

Best-Mike

 

[buscar]

Mike,

Yes, I believe Joe was pulling people's legs with that story.

This is the description of the rock Harry France got under from the rain... Harry said the rock was above a wash on the slope and the size of a baby grand piano. It was triangle shaped and lying horizontal and had a slash on the side of it.

The triangle rock I found has a hole under it that a person can easily get in. The hole angles downward and then levels out with plenty of room to move around. I know this to be true, because I have been under the triangle rock.

Tracy L Hawkins and I were friends he is now deceased. He agreed, that the picture of the rock and my description is what Harry France described. I have the conversation on tape.

There's gold in them thar stories and that's where most of it is

buscar

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Yes, I believe Joe was pulling people's legs with that story.

This is the description of the rock Harry France got under from the rain... Harry said the rock was above a wash on the slope and the size of a baby grand piano. It was triangle shaped and lying horizontal and had a slash on the side of it.

The triangle rock I found has a hole under it that a person can easily get in. The hole angles downward and then levels out with plenty of room to move around. I know this to be true, because I have been under the triangle rock.

Tracy L Hawkins and I were friends he is now deceased. He agreed, that the picture of the rock and my description is what Harry France described. I have the conversation on tape.

There's gold in them thar stories and that's where most of it is

buscar

Buscar,

Welcome to TNet. Nice to see you posting here. You might know me better by my real name Mike McChesney (which I use on Feldman's DLM Site). I remember when you posted last year that Tracy Hawkins had passed. Sucks. From everybody I had spoken to about him he seemed to be a really good guy.

That said, your post leaves more questions than answers (ain't that usually the case with those kinds of stories). I think I'll PM you though. Thinking back now, it looks like I made the same mistake Joe R did. I mixed up the Bob Brady and Harry (La)France stories.

Best-Mike

 

[TheRandyMan]

Man...this is some thread to get all the way through...and just now when its getting good its going to PM... ARRRGGGHHHH...

Welcome to Tnet Buscar...it seems as if your arrival has been quite timely!

 

[gollum]

..... Do I still believe in the cave of gold bars?......Yes! It's my theory, since I don't believe in Jesuit treasure anymore, that the gold bar's came from some other source.

There is a web of "circumstantial evidence" that suggests that the gold may have come from Mexico. Among the players in the story are, Pancho Villa, Emil Holmdahl and Ted DeGrazia. I could write a plausible historical novel on the available facts......Very plausible.

The crown on Harry's gold bar, does not really fit with "Royal Fifth" bars for the King. Believe there's another story there, perhaps a crude effort to add value to the bars.

Take care,

Joe

This is a subject I'd like to know more about. I have read the thread on the La France cave appearing several years ago on the LDM forum. I have also read the Kollenborn Chronicals 2008 article on 'Cave of Gold Bars'. Does anyone know of additional information that may be available on the 1930's era stories that Kollenborn mentioned? As you may know, following Roosevelt's Gold Confiscation Act of 1933, there were a number of 'gold bars in cave' stories that surfaced during the mid '30's in the Southwest and environs - TX, AR, MO, OK, UT, AZ and at least five here in NM. Whether the tales are linked is not clear, but it's an interesting coincidence.

Thanks, Springfield

Springfield,

To answer your question, there are several stories of gold bar caves in the Supers. The most complete batch of them is in a book by Bob Ward "Ripples of Lost Echoes." Another good cave of gold bars story is in Estee Conatser's book, although that one was recovered.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

.....
Springfield,

To answer your question, there are several stories of gold bar caves in the Supers. The most complete batch of them is in a book by Bob Ward "Ripples of Lost Echoes." Another good cave of gold bars story is in Estee Conatser's book, although that one was recovered.

Best-Mike

Thanks for the information Mike.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Mike is correct that there are a number of cave of gold bars stories.

Here is one of the best, most informative, threads on the subject of Harry's cave:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187

Just for the record, that topic alone puts Bob Wards account in another catagory all together.

One of the reasons it's so good, is because I finally got in touch with Tracy Hawkins, recently deceased, and he joined the site and gave us the straight scoop. Tracy was my uncle's old partner in the Superstitions and was the second person that Harry got in touch with concerning the cave.

Tracy, along with my Uncle Chuck and Ernie Provence put the team together that searched for the cave. I also have a recording, extensive, of my team asking Tracy all of the questions about the cave and La France that we could think of.

Buscar also did an interview with Tracy, but it was actually pretty short, at least the part of the transcript that he sent to me was sparse. I know he had many hours of conversations with Tracy.

Speaking of Wayne: Please accept my apologies for using your picture in my fictional story. You sent it to me in an email and it went into my Picasa photo program, along with thousands of other photo's I have received from hundreds of Dutch Hunters.

Don't believe any harm was done, but it's not my habit to use other people's material without their permission. No disrespect was intended.

Take care,

Joe