JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[motell6]

Mr,Cactus, I in no way misintereted what I read in Boltons R.O.C.,in my opinon.Bolton gives many clues to long forgotton missions,and goes so far as to photograph,quite a few ,he personally tracked .Some were tumbled down 1 room adobe shacks,some were just mounds where they used to stand,others were grande in stature.Once these missions were built,they were paid off,there was no mortage.Each 1 was administraded by whomever was in charge.They used the Injuns for free labor,and cooked up their own schemes for turning over a Peso, so they could decorate their propertys with valuable hand made relics,and some may have come from Europe,and I believe others may have been unearthed by astute eduacted Jesuits,with the help of the local tribesman.Why dont you post a copy of the map I mentioned in my previous post,for all to view. I have a copy of Storms,Thunder-gods gold.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mr. Goate,

"I have a copy of Storms,Thunder-gods gold."

Can you tell me which of Storm's notes contains the information you quoted?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[motell6]

end notes,Mr Cactus,why is that important to you

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Goate,

It's not really important at all. It's just that I didn't find your quote in Storm's notes. I did not look in every edition, so I thought maybe you could give me a shortcut by telling me which edition it's in. If that's a problem, it's no problem.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Maybe you could show us a period Jesuit Document that even mentions coadjutors?

It's not the Catholic Church that hides that. It is not necessarily even any kind of conspiracy. Just that the Order does not publish lists of the names of their coadjutors. It could be for any of a number of reasons. Most likely because if a known coadjutor in a position of authority favors the Order in some decision, then it could be construed as ....................... well, you know. Whether it was or not. Better to avoid the situation in the first place by not publishing lists, than putting out the fire.

Best-Mike

Mike,

Since coadjutor's names are often mentioned in Jesuit history, would that not count as some kind of "list"?

Have you read about Bartolome Larios, a lay brother who supervised the construction of a fountain in Oaxaca, in 1583?

Among the laymen/coadjutor's/brethren who accompanied Bartolome Larios when he entered the New World were: Juan Sanchez, Mercado, Curiel, Matilla, Lope Nauarrao and Martin Goncalez.

Who have you asked about this "secret" society of Jesuit shadow workers? Do you have a source for that information?

Take care,

Joe

 

[motell6]

If you do not have the end-notes in your copy/s of Thundergods Gold Mr.Cactus,then regretably I must imform you, you probably will never obtain them peroid. They are just that Rare and were included in very few copys. By the way my copy is signed by a person with the last name of Noss, and came out of a very old run down book shop in Van Nuys California.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Goate,

"Trail of the Lost Dutchman" was first published in 1939. I have a copy of the first edition, signed by Barry Storm. There are no notes of Storm's at the end of the book. What there are, are eight blank pages titled "Notes on My Trek to Superstition." It was up to the reader to fill them in.

Storm's personal "notes and credits" did not show up until later editions. His first book is not all that rare, but I would assume that Doc's personal copy would be a nice find.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[motell6]

Mr.Cactus, The Noss note/signature is on the inside front page. I purchased this book along with 2 books by Karl von Muller at the same time circa 1980.The Noss signature was a unexpected bonus.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Maybe you could show us a period Jesuit Document that even mentions coadjutors?

It's not the Catholic Church that hides that. It is not necessarily even any kind of conspiracy. Just that the Order does not publish lists of the names of their coadjutors. It could be for any of a number of reasons. Most likely because if a known coadjutor in a position of authority favors the Order in some decision, then it could be construed as ....................... well, you know. Whether it was or not. Better to avoid the situation in the first place by not publishing lists, than putting out the fire.

Best-Mike

Mike,

Since coadjutor's names are often mentioned in Jesuit history, would that not count as some kind of "list"?

Have you read about Bartolome Larios, a lay brother who supervised the construction of a fountain in Oaxaca, in 1583?

Among the laymen/coadjutor's/brethren who accompanied Bartolome Larios when he entered the New World were: Juan Sanchez, Mercado, Curiel, Matilla, Lope Nauarrao and Martin Goncalez.

Who have you asked about this "secret" society of Jesuit shadow workers? Do you have a source for that information?

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Actually, I should not have used the word ANY. I have several mentionings of different laybrothers over the years. What I have NEVER seen is a list of laybrothers. There are lists of Mission Priests, Lists of Missions, Lists of Fathers Provincials, Lists of Rectorates, Lists of Colegios, Lists of Births, Lists of Deaths, Lists of Marriages, Lists of Baptisms, but no lists of Laybrothers (Temporal Coadjutors). Any reason why there Joe?

I think you know quite well who one source is. Father John O'Malley SJ. His words to me were that Temporal Coadjutors made/make up as much as one third of the entire number of the Order.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

So, because you have never seen a list of every Jesuit layman who ever existed, you assume there must be some kind of nefarious reason for it. In addition to that, you feel that it might suggest that keeping Jesuit mining/treasures secret, might be the reason for that lack of a "list".......that you have been able to find.

This despite the fact that the names of Jesuit laymen have been in the public domain......since the founding of the order. When you asked Father O'Malley about such a list, what did he have to say......generally speaking?

I assume you are aware that many things in the Jesuit Order are only available to Jesuits. That could have also been arranged so that treasure hunters can never find proof of their mining activities, as anything is possible.

You made a statement of "fact", at least what you believed to be fact, and rather than say there is no secrecy attached to the names of Jesuit laymen, you have adjusted your "facts". Are we now saying that the names of the laymen involved in Northern Mexico mining are the only ones held in secrecy?

Since there is no proof that such mining ever took place, that's pretty handy. While you should have, could have, worded your statement differently, it's fairly obvious that you believe there is some kind of skullduggery involved in your not being to find a list of laymen.

I have no idea how that lack of information could have anything to do with Jesuit mining/treasure. Knowing who they were, by name, would not prove a thing. There are a number of good reasons why the Jesuits would not have created a secret inner society.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Gee Joe,

I guess in your world, everything happens at the extreme of everything, huh?

So, because you have never seen a list of every Jesuit layman who ever existed, you assume there must be some kind of nefarious reason for it.

I NEVER asked for a list of "every Jesuit layman who EVER EXISTED". Mr Extreme. I gave you a number of "LISTS" that Jesuits kept meticulously. Why no lists of the Lay Brothers? They were/are an important part of the Order.

You made a statement of "fact", at least what you believed to be fact, and rather than say there is no secrecy attached to the names of Jesuit laymen, you have adjusted your "facts". Are we now saying that the names of the laymen involved in Northern Mexico mining are the only ones held in secrecy?

Individual Lay Brothers have been mentioned several times (as I have stated previously). The Jesuit Mission Priests' Majordomos would have been considered their Temporal Coadjutors. What I have not been able to find are the Jesuit references to high ranking military, police, business owners, and elected officials who were Lay Brothers. As Father O'Malley told me, the road to the Jesuit Order is the same for everyone to a point. Everyone takes the initial Vow of Obedience. As the road goes on, men are weeded out for many reasons. They may not have the requisite intelligence or internal fortitude to drive on to the final goal of taking their Final Vows of the Jesuit Priesthood (some 21+ years total). Some men who started on that road were more suited to temporal activities than what the Order requires for Spiritual Teachers. They went on to work in areas not allowed for Priests. Since a Jesuit Priest was bound by a Vow of Poverty, he could not operate a business for profit. A temporal coadjutor could. A Jesuit Priest could not own a mine, but a temporal coadjutor could. ETC.

For SOME reason, you keep trying to turn everything I say into a big crazy conspiracy theory. I have never said any such thing. Many that read my posts and then your responses seem confused, as I have gotten several emails to that effect. You are making no sense.

The ONLY fact I am stating is that while the Jesuits were the most meticulous list/records keepers in the New World, they have never published lists of the Lay Brothers. A SIMPLE FACT. EVERYTHING else is solely my THEORY based on several published journals of the Jesuit Fathers that were in positions to know and see everything, writings of contemporary Jesuit Priests and historians, period documents (DRSW, private collections, Archivo de los Indios in Mexico City, and others).

Are you letting Lamar use your screen name to argue with me, since I have him on ignore?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

If you have a problem with what I write, try to focus on debating that. Bringing Lamar into the discussion and using the reference as some weak minded way to denigrate me, is less than impressive. In the same way, making wise cracks about me using dope is also immature.

Are you saying that the lay brothers were not bound to the rules of the Society?

There are many, many Jesuit documents and writings that have never been published by them. Is it possible that the "list" you seek would be kept by the Catholic Church, outside the archives of the Order? Is it possible that neither see any value or purpose in publishing such a list?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

If you have a problem with what I write, try to focus on debating that. Bringing Lamar into the discussion and using the reference as some weak minded way to denigrate me, is less than impressive. In the same way, making wise cracks about me using dope is also immature.

Are you saying that the lay brothers were not bound to the rules of the Society?

There are many, many Jesuit documents and writings that have never been published by them. Is it possible that the "list" you seek would be kept by the Catholic Church, outside the archives of the Order? Is it possible that neither see any value or purpose in publishing such a list?

Take care,

Joe

I do focus on that. I just bring up Lamar as a jibe. You are the one that is trying to make everything I post look like some crazy conspiracy.

To answer your question, it really has nothing to do with "publishing" or making public. It is just that over the course of about 159 years in the New World, the Jesuits had left a fairly large paper trail. In and amongst those papers contained in various archives and collections we have found lists of many things. As I stated previously, the Jesuits were meticulous list makers/records keepers.

You are right Joe, lists of the mission priests' monthly chocolate intake is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than a list of their coadjutors in different positions in the secular world. What must I have been thinking?

Are you saying that the lay brothers were not bound to the rules of the Society?

Depends on which rules you are talking about! The rules that the Mission Priests had to follow? NO they did not fall under those strictures. See, that is the very basis of my theory (and why they would choose to keep their coadjutors' names secret): the Jesuit love of finding the loopholes.

See, as long as the Jesuit Priests had no connection to the mining industry, then they were following the LETTER OF THE LAW. There were men who had taken a Vow Of Obedience to the Order whose identities were not known. If those men were tithing and bequeathing much of the profits from their businesses to the Order, and the King of Spain knew that they were part of the Order, do you think he would have thought they were following his rules? Not likely. In reality, they would have been following the LETTER OF THE LAW, but not the SPIRIT OF THE LAW. LOOPHOLES

Best-Mike

 

[Old Dog]

Well said Mike!

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I see. And this does not sound like a conspiracy?

[Depends on which rules you are talking about! The rules that the Mission Priests had to follow? NO they did not fall under those strictures. See, that is the very basis of my theory (and why they would choose to keep their coadjutors' names secret): the Jesuit love of finding the loopholes.

See, as long as the Jesuit Priests had no connection to the mining industry, then they were following the LETTER OF THE LAW. There were men who had taken a Vow Of Obedience to the Order whose identities were not known. If those men were tithing and bequeathing much of the profits from their businesses to the Order, and the King of Spain knew that they were part of the Order, do you think he would have thought they were following his rules? Not likely. In reality, they would have been following the LETTER OF THE LAW, but not the SPIRIT OF THE LAW. LOOPHOLES]

If it's not a conspiracy, why are they keeping this list from you?
Your "theory" reeks of conspiracy.......by any definition of the word.

Take care,

Joe

 

[uthunter]

My question is...

If the Jesuits were not allowed to be involved in mining, then why were the so well trained in the art of mineralogy, mining practices, and the such?

There is hard evidence that the Jesuits were schooled at some of the best when it comes to mining. To think that they would have all this education and not put it to use is a bit absurd, at to me it is.

 

[Cubfan64]

My question is...

If the Jesuits were not allowed to be involved in mining, then why were the so well trained in the art of mineralogy, mining practices, and the such?

There is hard evidence that the Jesuits were schooled at some of the best when it comes to mining. To think that they would have all this education and not put it to use is a bit absurd, at to me it is.

I haven't gotten what I consider to be a good reason for that either uthunter - especially if it turns out the order had any hand in mining (whether teaching the art of it, practicing the art of it, etc...) in Europe or elsewhere other than New Spain.

I'm not convinced of a large conspiracy going on, but from a purely human perspective I have such a difficult time imagining what it would have been like to continuously barely get by each month and year raising crops and livestock while knowing that rich deposits of minerals were being gathered and shipped back to Europe.

I understand the concept of allowing faith to guide you to believe that God will provide, but I think Mike has a point that if there were a means for abiding by the specific law of the land but finding a way around that in order to help save the souls of the people you believe you have been sent to save, it may very well have been done.

Do I believe it was done to an enormous extent to build the coffers of the church, missions or personal bankrolls of the individuals? Not really - I think there's a big leap in there between doing what it takes to provide for your "sheep" and one of taking advantage of a "loophole" to amass great wealth.

Then again, I've done little to no researching on the Jesuits, so my view here is simply one of observations on the human condition and trying to put myself in their place at that time. Probably not much value in anything I posted

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I see. And this does not sound like a conspiracy?

[Depends on which rules you are talking about! The rules that the Mission Priests had to follow? NO they did not fall under those strictures. See, that is the very basis of my theory (and why they would choose to keep their coadjutors' names secret): the Jesuit love of finding the loopholes.

See, as long as the Jesuit Priests had no connection to the mining industry, then they were following the LETTER OF THE LAW. There were men who had taken a Vow Of Obedience to the Order whose identities were not known. If those men were tithing and bequeathing much of the profits from their businesses to the Order, and the King of Spain knew that they were part of the Order, do you think he would have thought they were following his rules? Not likely. In reality, they would have been following the LETTER OF THE LAW, but not the SPIRIT OF THE LAW. LOOPHOLES]

If it's not a conspiracy, why are they keeping this list from you?
Your "theory" reeks of conspiracy.......by any definition of the word.

Take care,

Joe

WAY TO GO JOE!!!​

Way to completely ignore the subject and pick out a single word to argue. I can do that too:

I said "crazy conspiracy". Reading is fundamental.

Now, why don't you get back to the subject at hand?

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: A) no one has seen to address my statement that my then assoc had an audience with the no 2 of the Jesuit society where he un diplomatically asked if the take over plot of North America was true, the gentleman gave short laugh and said "yes, but we don't do that sort of thing any more"??

Question where would they get the money, especially in North America, to finance this movement?

B) the Missions were one thing, actually too much attention has been focused upon the average humble Mission, which at times had to fight to merely exist, but not Rome but where did Rome get the money to live lavishly and to be accused by other groups of bribery, power grabbing, etc etc.

A mines production generally was under the control of a Kings representative - tax collector - and was recorded as such, except that under the system of mordida - bribery - a common action in all Latin countries. the major part of a mines production may be easily be diverted to another destination --> Rome, In fact a mine may have two names, one the legal one, and the other a Jesuit code word. IE Mine 'X' may have been legally entered on the books as one of the still undiscovered lost mines, while it is carried on the Jesuit Books and popular legend as Tayopa. --> hint.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening again: I might add "why has my path on the road to Tayopa been crossed by Jesuits looking for it and other mines "?

Don Jose de La Mancha