JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Actually Don Guacamole,

The mines were under the direct supervision of whomever the mine owner designated to supervise them. The King's Representatives were not usually anywhere near the mines. The King's Fifth was not taken from the areas of the mines. This is how it worked:

As long as you stayed in the outlands, you were free to conduct business in ore or rough smelted dore bars. When you went into town only monies of the Realm were accepted. This meant you were required to take your rough smelted bars and ore to the local mint. Here, it would be smelted and refined. Made into stamped bars and/or coins. It was from this that the King's Fifth was taken (see pic):

Notice the "QUINTO" markings. This meant that when the silver of this batch was refined, the King's Fifth was taken out.

Best-Mike

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

gullum: HI, I am well aware of what you posted, which is quite correct, but only applies to the Dore' bars delivered 'to the mint', not the ones that were secreted away, or sent to a different location, say Rome ?.

What I was referring to was the actual production of a particular mine. This was generally checked and estimated to by an official who was always open to a bribe (Mordida) to officially record it as far lower than it's actual output or potential.

This was crudely cross checked by it's chemical and Mercury useage, which sources the King supposedly controlled, but again, here the Mordida system worked equally well, plus there were plenty of illegal chemicals available. With such a huge area to be checked, it was virtually an impossibility to close it off.

Remember, the Jesuits were masters at this game and they would have had free use of whatever they needed in whatever quantities they needed..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I see. And this does not sound like a conspiracy?

[Depends on which rules you are talking about! The rules that the Mission Priests had to follow? NO they did not fall under those strictures. See, that is the very basis of my theory (and why they would choose to keep their coadjutors' names secret): the Jesuit love of finding the loopholes.

See, as long as the Jesuit Priests had no connection to the mining industry, then they were following the LETTER OF THE LAW. There were men who had taken a Vow Of Obedience to the Order whose identities were not known. If those men were tithing and bequeathing much of the profits from their businesses to the Order, and the King of Spain knew that they were part of the Order, do you think he would have thought they were following his rules? Not likely. In reality, they would have been following the LETTER OF THE LAW, but not the SPIRIT OF THE LAW. LOOPHOLES]

If it's not a conspiracy, why are they keeping this list from you?
Your "theory" reeks of conspiracy.......by any definition of the word.

Take care,

Joe

WAY TO GO JOE!!!​

Way to completely ignore the subject and pick out a single word to argue. I can do that too:

I said "crazy conspiracy". Reading is fundamental.

Now, why don't you get back to the subject at hand?

Best-Mike

Mike,

Over the years, not much has changed in your approach to opposing opinions.
Everyone else is always wrong, and you are always correct. Even when dealing with someone, like Lamar, who has more knowledge and sources on the inner workings of the Catholic Church than any of us, outside the church, can ever hope to have, your methods are insults and bullying until you run the opposition out of the debate.

What that tends to do, is lessen everyone's access to a very good source. I am not saying that any of us are always right, or that we don't have maddening habits or seeming inability to admit when we are wrong, but you, my friend, are the epitome of truculence.

Do you want to exchange theories and opinions or just be "King of the hill"?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I see. And this does not sound like a conspiracy?

[Depends on which rules you are talking about! The rules that the Mission Priests had to follow? NO they did not fall under those strictures. See, that is the very basis of my theory (and why they would choose to keep their coadjutors' names secret): the Jesuit love of finding the loopholes.

See, as long as the Jesuit Priests had no connection to the mining industry, then they were following the LETTER OF THE LAW. There were men who had taken a Vow Of Obedience to the Order whose identities were not known. If those men were tithing and bequeathing much of the profits from their businesses to the Order, and the King of Spain knew that they were part of the Order, do you think he would have thought they were following his rules? Not likely. In reality, they would have been following the LETTER OF THE LAW, but not the SPIRIT OF THE LAW. LOOPHOLES]

If it's not a conspiracy, why are they keeping this list from you?
Your "theory" reeks of conspiracy.......by any definition of the word.

Take care,

Joe

WAY TO GO JOE!!!​

Way to completely ignore the subject and pick out a single word to argue. I can do that too:

I said "crazy conspiracy". Reading is fundamental.

Now, why don't you get back to the subject at hand?

Best-Mike

Mike,

Over the years, not much has changed in your approach to opposing opinions.
Everyone else is always wrong, and you are always correct. Even when dealing with someone, like Lamar, who has more knowledge and sources on the inner workings of the Catholic Church than any of us, outside the church, can ever hope to have, your methods are insults and bullying until you run the opposition out of the debate.

What that tends to do, is lessen everyone's access to a very good source. I am not saying that any of us are always right, or that we don't have maddening habits or seeming inability to admit when we are wrong, but you, my friend, are the epitome of truculence.

Do you want to exchange theories and opinions or just be "King of the hill"?

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

"Over the years" my approach has never been that I AM ALWAYS RIGHT. There are some things that I KNOW BEYOND DOUBT I am correct about. I call those FACTS. There are many other things that I have no direct proof with which to back up my assertions. I call those my THEORIES. Over the years, I have been VERY clear as to what were FACTS and what was THEORY.

Lamar has no more knowledge of the inner workings of the Jesuit Order or the Catholic Church than any one of my few good sources of information. In fact, what information he does have pales in comparison. I seem to remember several instances when he excessively argued a completely wrong idea, and when presented with the facts, he either:

>Disappeared for a couple of days, then started reposting on a different subject, completely ignoring everything before.

>Picked one word out of the post that may have been used out of context and ran it into the ground trying to avert attention from his original mistake.

>Took one or two words of the post out of context and pretended to be offended again trying to direct attention away from his mistake.

THAT adds absolutely nothing to any discussion. What it does is prove that he was Intellectually Dishonest. Not being able to admit when he was wrong.

The ONLY time I bullied Lamar was when he kept ignoring posted facts that COMPLETELY refuted his argument, and I would not let him change the subject until he answered the asked questions. Several of those to this day, he has never answered (at least until the point when I put him on ignore).

So Joe, you can make this personal if you want, or (FOR THE THIRD TIME) we can get back to the subject?

See, if I find evidence that refutes my THEORIES, I have no problem admitting such and starting from the drawing board if need be. That's why theories are called theories. If they were facts backed up by direct evidence we wouldn't be having this conversation. HAHAHA

What we DO have, though, are some facts that cannot be reconciled through written history:

Guevavi: A large piece of miscast bell on which the casting sprues are still attached. Also a large amount of slag with a VERY high silver content. A record of many deaths associated with this Mission that the symptoms look AMAZINGLY like heavy metal poisoning (like would be found at a refining facility).

Tumacacori: Old descriptions of metallic slag piles and rooms designed for metal working.

Jesuit Priests' descriptions of wealth that was simply not there when they were arrested in 1767.

Local Histories throughout the New World of Jesuit owned refining facilities and mines. Do you REALLY discount ALL of them? There are too many to be complete BS.

.......and much much more.

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good afternoon mi friend Joe: sorry for the delay in responding to your post -->Which local tribe would that be? How do they know that the metals were shipped to Rome? Did the Jesuits put shipping labels on their loot?
*******************
The guayajiros, they worked the Tayopa zone and know enough about directions to know that pack trains going towards the N/E were not destined for Mexico city. One day to the N/ E was the primary collection center. This is where in Dobie's book , "Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver" mentions the two women finding the covered metal door during a rain storm only to have it covered up again a bit later by the same storm.

I posted in detail about this location, why and how the main double hinged vertical doors were hidden.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Joe, as you know, I am a nice guy, "honest swr", the Indians have always trusted me, and I have always been extremely careful to never betray that trust.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"The guayajiros, they worked the Tayopa zone and know enough about directions to know that pack trains going towards the N/E were not destined for Mexico city."

I have a hard time believing that the Guarijios worked anywhere in that era, at least in mines. Some of them were forced into the mines after the Jesuits were expelled......from what I've read.

What's important in the history of the time, is that gold and silver was discovered in the region in the early 1600's.

It was not until 1657 that the Guarijios allowed two Jesuit missionaries into their lives. The two were, Fathers Pecoro and Prado. They established at least three new missions and refounded Guadalupe Victoria.

I assume northeast, would be along the Rio Mayo. Tight country.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Joe, first there are two basic groups of the Guayahiros - both spellings are correct, but yours is more universal -- the flat landers, and the highlanders. today they are well mixed, but in the olden days they fiercely defended their territories simply because of the food situation.

The high ones in general worked at Tayopa, and other mines. Unfortunate most records were kept by the old women who were the oral recipients of history, but more interested in marriages, births, etc. However, I have had access to an old map on sheep skin that both groups guarded, which had been divided in two, one for each. They drew where Tayopa, and several other mines in their area are located, including "the richest placer in Sonora" which comes from the western geological faulting of the Tayopa zone. This came about after I had found Tayopa, and assured them of their participation in whatever came from Tayopa, and they were no longer concerned with hiding it.

I also helped supply them with my pickup full of used winter clothing, much of which was donated by the local American colony. The same with the Seri Indians N/E of Tiberon.

!/2 of the map was mostly destroyed in the floods of the Rio Mayo 2 years ago.

I have almost a book of further data that I have accumulated on the Tayopa zone, from the earliest days to the present. It is a fantastic and very unique area which has been overlooked by being in the geographical center of a vast 800 ft cap of barren basalt.

However this is as far as I will go on a public medium. While I am enjoying that steak I will tell you of many many other things which establish the actual existence of Tayopa and the various buildings, capillas? used in the leap frog operation.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I don't know a lot about the Guarijios, just enough to know there are a number of ways their name has been spelled. I know that the Macurahui are the river Guarijios and that most of them live along the Rio Mayo. They seem to be losing their unique identity while those referred to as Guarijios de la sierra remain a cohesive tribe. I assume that has something to do with the difficult/dangerous terrain they inhabit, while the river Guarijios are more accessable to the inroads of civilization.

Take care,

Joe

 

[FEMF]

Actually Don Guacamole,

The mines were under the direct supervision of whomever the mine owner designated to supervise them. The King's Representatives were not usually anywhere near the mines. The King's Fifth was not taken from the areas of the mines. This is how it worked:

As long as you stayed in the outlands, you were free to conduct business in ore or rough smelted dore bars. When you went into town only monies of the Realm were accepted. This meant you were required to take your rough smelted bars and ore to the local mint. Here, it would be smelted and refined. Made into stamped bars and/or coins. It was from this that the King's Fifth was taken (see pic):

Notice the "QUINTO" markings. This meant that when the silver of this batch was refined, the King's Fifth was taken out.

Best-Mike

Hello Mike
As always, your research is informative and very much appreciated. Don't let the mud on your shoes, slow you down.
Thanks again, Mike.
FEMF

 

[gollum]

Thanks FEMF.

Best-Mike

 

[uthunter]

Hey Gollum...

Nice pic, lots of good info/symbols on there to look out for.

Jon

 

[gollum]

Thanks,

But it's not my pic. It is from this study of one of the Atocha Silver Bars:

http://www.sedwickcoins.com/articles/atocha.htm

Lots of information there too.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"The high ones in general worked at Tayopa, and other mines. Unfortunate most records were kept by the old women who were the oral recipients of history, but more interested in marriages, births, etc. However, I have had access to an old map on sheep skin that both groups guarded, which had been divided in two, one for each. They drew where Tayopa, and several other mines in their area are located, including "the richest placer in Sonora" which comes from the western geological faulting of the Tayopa zone. This came about after I had found Tayopa, and assured them of their participation in whatever came from Tayopa, and they were no longer concerned with hiding it."

Can you estimate how many natives were enslaved to work the mines and build the "leap frog" buildings? Do you know the approximate year that enslavement began......give or take a decade? Do you know how the Jesuits were able to force the Guarijios into that slavery and what force was used to keep them there?

As I said, I know a little of the Guarijio/Warihio history. It is, of course, what has been written, not passed down, mostly, by the women of the tribe. That being said, the Jesuit writings as well as the early ethnographers, paint a pretty good picture of their lives.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Joe: sheehs waiting all week to hit me with that? That is dedication to knowledge, unfortunately ----


You posted -->Can you estimate how many natives were enslaved to work the mines
***********
Nope.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted -->and build the "leap frog" buildings?
***********
Nope
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~You posted -->Do you know the approximate year that enslavement began......give or take a decade?
***********
Nope, since it cannot be established when Tayopa was first being worked ??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted -->Do you know how the Jesuits were able to force the Guarijios into that slavery and what force was used to keep them there?

************
Nope, but usually it was through religious chains with the help of a few mercenaries.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You posted --> the Jesuit writings as well as the early ethnographers, paint a pretty good picture of their lives.
***********
Generally true, but a bit one sided

Anything else you wish to clear up?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Thank you for your quick reply?

I had hoped that someone with the inside (face to face) knowledge of the Guarijio people would have something better to offer than......"Nope......Nope......Nope, and.......Nope".

I would not be so quick to dismiss the fine ethnographers who visited the Guarijio in the early 1900's. Their research was done among the people of the tribes, as well as using the work of early writers, such as the Jesuits and Franciscans.

People like Gentry, Sauer, Passin and more recently, David Yetman are well respected for their work in that very difficult environment.

It would seem, to me, that a theory such as yours, would require as much historical background as possible. That being the case, IMHO, you should have an answer for each of my questions.......at least answers that are historically feasible.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI mi steak man: you posted -->It would seem, to me, that a theory such as yours, would require as much historical background as possible. That being the case, IMHO, you should have an answer for each of my questions.......at least answers that are historically feasible
***************
How in the world can one post historically feasable data on something that history insists never existed? Actually I can, but that is for a later series of data on Tayopa, not just yet.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"How in the world can one post historically feasable data on something that history insists never existed? Actually I can, but that is for a later series of data on Tayopa, not just yet."

Since the written history is not available, I assumed you would have done your research with the Guarijio themselves. If not from them, where did the story come from?

The questions seemed pretty basic, but I guess it's just not that simple.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I can't speak for Don Guacamole or Tayopa, but as far as many of the Jesuit Churches and Missions, if one reads only what most people read in text books one would have the impression that all the Missions and Churches were poor to the point of being almost destitute without the few alms (200 pesos) the King of Spain provided as a yearly stipend.

Read the works of Bolton, Burrus, and Polzer (as I know you have), and you will see that is the impression they give. It is only when you read a little more in depth (Och, Nentvig, Pfefferkorn, etc) that you get a real idea of what was possessed.

............ and as I have restated so many times before: We know it was there from the translated and published journals of the Jesuit Fathers that actually witnessed the wealth. We know it wasn't there at the time they were arrested on 25 June 1767, because we know that the Spanish were in fits because they couldn't find the wealth. We know it also was not there a year later when Fray Junipero Sera was tasked with founding the California Mission System, because he was given free reign to take any leftover Jesuit adornments and vestments to use. He inventoried everything he found, and it wasn't much.

I don't need to go into any more detail than I already have about what they did have. Many writers of the time (and even father Polzer SJ has admitted) that so many of the Missions and Churches in Northern New Spain rivaled the finest Cathedrals in Europe (doesn't sound very destitute to me).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"............ And as I have restated so many times before: We know it was there from the translated and published journals of the Jesuit Fathers that actually witnessed the wealth. We know it wasn't there at the time they were arrested on 25 June 1767, because we know that the Spanish were in fits because they couldn't find the wealth. We know it also was not there a year later when Fray Junipero Sera was tasked with founding the California Mission System, because he was given free reign to take any leftover Jesuit adornments and vestments to use. He inventoried everything he found, and it wasn't much."

Interesting that you are so open to the written accounts of the Jesuits, which may be exaggerated, but are unwilling to accept the actual documents from the mission ledgers. Remember, we are discussing the northern missions, not those in the south, South America or Cuba.

As for nothing being found by the soldiers who arrested the priests, the corruption that exists in Mexico today is unchanged since the days of the Conquistadors. Since we are not really trying to establish anything more than those things that have been listed as "Church" accessories, I doubt anything would have made it's way back to Mexico City. The soldiers, including their leaders, were prone to abscond with anything of value that could be carried, chopped into pieces small enough to carry or drag.

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, or your "evidence", you will not change written history. IMHO, The documented evidence against your theories far outweighs the arguments for them. I would like for it to be the other way around, but remain unconvinced.

Father Och is not such a positive argument as you seem to believe. Father Nentvig is often less than believable.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Sure Joe,

Believe what you will. I guess you don't take what Polzer said either? Maybe the Bishop of Durango?

Exaggerated? I don't think that very specific descriptions of cast silver railings or chandeliers are prone to exaggeration.

Maybe in your vast store of materials you can provide us with inventories of the missions? See, according to EVERY Father Provincial of the Order, whenever a Mission Father was transferred from one mission to another, an accurate inventory of his original mission had to be made. Nothing was allowed to be transferred from one Mission to another without the express written consent of the Fathers Visitor or Provincial. With as many Priests moving from one Mission to another as we know happened, what happened to all those inventories that were required to have been made? Maybe you can enlighten us?

Which written history are you referring to? That which doesn't fit into what you believe, or ALL the written history. Fathers Nentvig, Och, Pfefferkorn and others are written history as well, but since you don't believe them they don't count? Do you mean the Church and Mission Ledgers that were subject to being seen and confiscated by Spanish Authorities? Do you REALLY think that if they were doing something that was illegal for them to be doing, that those very intelligent Jesuits would have it in writing for all to see? Doubtfull.

If you think that Father Och is not an absolutely positive argument, then you haven't read his journals. Would you like me to email you relevant passages if you don't have them? And you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that we should not trust Father Nentvig when he quoted Saint Ignatious Loyola as to why he believed Jesuit Churches should be well adorned!

HMMMMMMMMMMMM I think until I see something credible that would cause me to disbelieve the journals of the Mission Fathers, I will go with that. See, they didn't publish them until they had nothing to fear from Spanish Authorities. What you mostly see is what they wanted the Spanish Seculars to see. You can believe only those accounts if you want. I have a good nose for BS, and Och doesn't stink to me.

Best-Mike