JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I have read all of the works you have mentioned, and reread them often. The problem is, I don't equate rich church trappings with Jesuit mining and vast treasures.

I am at our store and don't have the exact quote in front of me, but remember that Father Och wrote that one of the officers in charge of arresting the priests during the expulsion, stole all the watches and rings of the priest's.......something that had been expressly forbidden.

It does not seem much of a leap to imagine that the silver and gold objects in the church's met the same fate. Is it your opinion that not a single chalice or candelabra was found in any of the missions?

"Believe what you will. I guess you don't take what Polzer said either? Maybe the Bishop of Durango?"

I don't disbelieve either Father Polzer nor the Bishop of Durango. Most other writings and documents of the time, such as Father Polzer's, show little wealth or vast treasures in the missions of Northern Mexico.

On the other hand, I don't believe every story that has been written or told by a priest. After all, they were just men in the final analysis.....

Take care,

Joe

 

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[FEMF]

Joe,

I can't speak for Don Guacamole or Tayopa, but as far as many of the Jesuit Churches and Missions, if one reads only what most people read in text books one would have the impression that all the Missions and Churches were poor to the point of being almost destitute without the few alms (200 pesos) the King of Spain provided as a yearly stipend.

Read the works of Bolton, Burrus, and Polzer (as I know you have), and you will see that is the impression they give. It is only when you read a little more in depth (Och, Nentvig, Pfefferkorn, etc) that you get a real idea of what was possessed.

............ and as I have restated so many times before: We know it was there from the translated and published journals of the Jesuit Fathers that actually witnessed the wealth. We know it wasn't there at the time they were arrested on 25 June 1767, because we know that the Spanish were in fits because they couldn't find the wealth. We know it also was not there a year later when Fray Junipero Sera was tasked with founding the California Mission System, because he was given free reign to take any leftover Jesuit adornments and vestments to use. He inventoried everything he found, and it wasn't much.

I don't need to go into any more detail than I already have about what they did have. Many writers of the time (and even father Polzer SJ has admitted) that so many of the Missions and Churches in Northern New Spain rivaled the finest Cathedrals in Europe (doesn't sound very destitute to me).

Best-Mike

Hello Mike
I know you have posted most of Father Och's stuff, but Please post it again for all of our benefit, when you have time. Thanks.
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

FEMF,

"MISSIONARY IN SONORA. The Travel Reports of Joseph Och, S.J. 1755-1767" is 196 pages of Father Och's travels and observations coming to the new world and while he was in Mexico.

It is written in three parts which describe his travels from Europe, the Jesuit expulsion and the Indians of Sonora.

I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong, as I am working from a poor memory here.

Not sure that Mike has posted that much on Father Och's reports, but you can find the book at a good price here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea....00&recentlyadded=all&sortby=1&sts=t&x=68&y=3

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Come on Joe,

I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong,

YES, you are COMPLETELY wrong here.

Maybe this description of the Jesuit Church at Puebla de Los Angeles will jog your memory (Puebla de Los Angeles is on the way from Vera Cruz to Mexico City):

Via pleasant roads we finally reached Ozumba, one of the beautiful estates belonging to the Puebla college, and two hours distant from the city. .... Then we were driven into the city of Puebla de los Angeles in several coaches amid the cheers of a great multitude, and lodged in the great, splendid College of the Holy Ghost, where we were entertained as guests for three days. … [Regarding the cathedral in Puebla.] The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service...................

In case anybody is not conversant with Spanish Colonial Measurements, a "WEIGHT" is approximately one pound. That means in this ONE SINGLE Church, in just the two railings we have one thousand six hundred pounds (yes, that's 1600 pounds) of the "finest cast silver." Not to mention the "COLLOSSALY LARGE HANGING LAMP" that is made of silver, and the rest of the rich adornments.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Come on Joe,

I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong,

YES, you are COMPLETELY wrong here.

Maybe this description of the Jesuit Church at Puebla de Los Angeles will jog your memory (Puebla de Los Angeles is on the way from Vera Cruz to Mexico City):

Via pleasant roads we finally reached Ozumba, one of the beautiful estates belonging to the Puebla college, and two hours distant from the city. .... Then we were driven into the city of Puebla de los Angeles in several coaches amid the cheers of a great multitude, and lodged in the great, splendid College of the Holy Ghost, where we were entertained as guests for three days. … [Regarding the cathedral in Puebla.] The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service...................

In case anybody is not conversant with Spanish Colonial Measurements, a "WEIGHT" is approximately one pound. That means in this ONE SINGLE Church, in just the two railings we have one thousand six hundred pounds (yes, that's 1600 pounds) of the "finest cast silver." Not to mention the "COLLOSSALY LARGE HANGING LAMP" that is made of silver, and the rest of the rich adornments.

Best-Mike

Mike,

I repeat....."I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong".

I keep repeating that we are talking about Northern Mexico, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that.

I don't consider Puebla de Los Angeles, which is east of Mexico City, to be in Northern Mexico. Is that what you believe? From Mexico City, their departure point for the northern missions, it is a 400 hour trip. Assuming they travelled eight hours a day, it would take 50 days. In fact, it took them much longer than that. I believe that Mexico City is considered to be in Central Mexico, and in fact is very close to being the center of the country.

I have not argued that the Jesuits did not have any large, opulent churches.... anywhere. You have to read the entire description of the city of Tlascala (Puebla) and consider that the church you are talking about is the oldest Roman Catholic diocese in Mexico. It was one of the most important cities in Colonial Mexico. If you research the history of that city, you will see why the church was such a fine example, both in architecture as well as fine appointments......gold, silver.....etc.

In 1756 the Bishop of Puebla was Bienpica y Sotomayor. That was the year that Father Och was describing what he saw in the church. Was the Bishop a Jesuit? Earlier in Puebla's history, Juan de Palafox y Mendoza was was ordained Bishop of Puebla de Los Angles. If you read "Virtues of the Indian" you will understand how the church in Puebla became so prominent and rich. It was not through the Society of Jesus.

The first Jesuits arrived in Mexico City in 1572. I believe the first Bishop of Puebla was Julian Garces, O.P. He was appointed Bishop on Oct. 13, 1525. Och's group did not always stay with or in "Jesuit" church's on their journey. Perhaps it's the Dominicans you should be researching for your treasure theories.

I believe there were times when the Bishop of Puebla was Secular.

There are 181 pages in "Missionary in Sonora". Did you find a single quote of Father Och describing the vast wealth of the missions in Sonora?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

First, the discussion is about Jesuit Treasures PERIOD. Did/do they exist? Not just in Northern Mexico. PERIOD. I know what the thread is about ..... I started it.

Maybe you are the one who can't grasp what is being said. Maybe another restatement:

Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service...................

Maybe your hero Father Charles Polzer SJ might help you get the point:

"Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections, were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe.

Maybe Father Johan (Juan) Nentvig:

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

First, the discussion is about Jesuit Treasures PERIOD. Did/do they exist? Not just in Northern Mexico. PERIOD. I know what the thread is about ..... I started it.

Maybe you are the one who can't grasp what is being said. Maybe another restatement:

Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service...................

Maybe your hero Father Charles Polzer SJ might help you get the point:

"Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections, were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe.

Maybe Father Johan (Juan) Nentvig:

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears

Best-Mike

Mike,

I am aware of what your topic is about. Inside every topic most people follow the thread wherever it leads. It would seem that you are not "most people". Is it your opinion that the topic had drifted to Central Mexico, as opposed to the area of Sonora? I thought that was the area of most interest, as opposed to Jesuit treasure in the rest of the world.

As I have stated a number of times, if others want to focus on South America or China, that's no problem with me, but I must stick to what I have the most knowledge of. That would be the Jesuits in Northern Mexico/Sonora which, I assume from the legends, is the area the Jesuits gathered the bulk of their Mexican treasure.

"Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service..................."

There are a number of problems with your quote. Here is the rest of the story:

"I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of the finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service."

Even though there might be some ambiguity in the highlighted portion of the quote, it is less important than what follows on the very next page (31):

"The secular government consists of Viceroy Bucareli, and eight or ten noble judges who are known as oidores."

Father Och was not writing about Jesuit wealth or treasure. He was writing about the secular holdings. In addition to that, he was not including all of Mexico in "smallest villages", but was talking about the Diocese of Puebla. That my friend, was not Jesuit, but secular.

Your first clue should have been when he mentions the salary's of the "Bishop of Puebla, and the twenty-five canons...".

When I wrote: "I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong,", you immediately offered the following statement:

[YES, you are COMPLETELY wrong here.

Maybe this description of the Jesuit Church at Puebla de Los Angeles will jog your memory (Puebla de Los Angeles is on the way from Vera Cruz to Mexico City):]

When I pointed out that Puebla de Los Angeles was not in Northern Mexico, you switched to some rather foolish attacks about the topic being YOURS.....etc. "Northern Mexico" was the operative phrase there.

"Maybe your hero Father Charles Polzer SJ might help you get the point:"

Father Polzer is not my "hero" but I have respect for his work.

"Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections, were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe."

Since there were over 200 missions at the time of the expulsion, I imagine "the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe." In relation to the number of Jesuit missions, could you put a number on...."often"?

"Maybe Father Johan (Juan) Nentvig:"

Father Nentvig was prone to elaboration of the facts.....somewhat like others on this forum. On the other hand, he wrote this:

"Concerning the Descripcion de Sonora, it had to be ready within a very limited time: before the departure of Senor Tienda de Cuervo [December 9, 1762]. The Descripcion is badly arranged. I wrote it surreptitiously during the summer when my health was not so good. Lacking necessary data, I requested information from various individuals who paid no attention to my appeals...I would prefer that less credit be given to me alone for the writing of such an important work as the history of this province, to which I would gladly dedicate my efforts in a more thorough manner were it not for my endless occupations...and my blindness has prevented me from reviewing my notes..."

Beyond that, there is this on the first page of the Preface:

"Father Juan Nentvig's manuscript was written in a century of exploration when people were willing to believe that far-off lands were filled with incredible mysteries; it is crammed with information interlaced with colorful but impossible tales."

"1. Father Nentvig's Journals are beyond reproach. There is no doubt he wrote the words that I have attributed to him."

"Beyond reproach"?

In no way do I feel that the above quotes denigrate Father Nentvig's wonderful account, but at the same time, I believe the information must be taken into account when considering the entire manuscript. Father Nentvig wrote in the style of his time.

Considering my qualifying statement focusing on "Northern Mexico", it was you who was "completely wrong". When I have made a stupid blunder, and it is brought to my attention, I always apologize for the mistake and manage to laugh at myself. You should try that sometime.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Father Och was quit specific whenn he wanted to be. If he would have been describing Puebla only, he would have said so.

When you jump from my quote to the place where you start quoting, Father Och has long left Puebla de Los Angeles, and was describing the government of Mexico City. See, your quote starts about halfway down page 31, but the very first line on that page states:

The city of Mexico is indisputably one of the best and most beautiful cities in the world............

The previous page (pg30) about halfway down you can find the line:

After a stay in Puebla we were called to Mexico to make ready at once for our journey to the missions.

Is Lamar sending you things, or are you actually reading them yourself?

Since there were over 200 missions at the time of the expulsion, I imagine "the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe." In relation to the number of Jesuit missions, could you put a number on...."often"?

You have already answered your own question there; if 200 is the base, I would imagine that to use the word often would mean more than half (somewhere between 100-150). Even if we use the number 100, that is quite a large number of fine adornments.

I don't have a lot of time this weekend to devote to all this (work all weekend and a Christmas Party). I just didn't want to look like Lamar by just ignoring your posts for a few days and have you calling ME Lamar. HAHAHA I'll have some more time to devote to this Monday or Tuesday.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Why then I must be wrong. Puebla and Mexico City must be in Northern Mexico, just as you have inferred.

You seem to be obsessed with Lamar. Perhaps that's why you are having such a hard time following the thread here.

Actually Father Och was not "long gone" from Puebla. They had just left to immediately prepare for their trip to the missions of Sonora. I believe that was also in Northern Mexico.......according to the Gollum School of Geography.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI JOE, my coffee? You posted --> I believe that was also in Northern Mexico.

******************
that depends entirely upon your reference point. snicker & apol.

Don Jose de La Mancha

" I exist to Live, not live to exist".

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I knew Mike had to be using some kind of logic.

Good to see that someone else understood it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

They had just left to immediately prepare for their trip to the missions of Sonora. I believe that was also in Northern Mexico.......according to the Gollum School of Geography.

Not Gollum's School of Geography, but I think ANY Geography School. I MAY BE WRONG, but I believe Sonora is in Northern Mexico (see map).

The quote from Father Polzer's Book (what was the name of that book again?), OH YEAH! "Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in NORTHWESTERN NEW SPAIN"

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

They had just left to immediately prepare for their trip to the missions of Sonora. I believe that was also in Northern Mexico.......according to the Gollum School of Geography.

Not Gollum's School of Geography, but I think ANY Geography School. I MAY BE WRONG, but I believe Sonora is in Northern Mexico (see map).

The quote from Father Polzer's Book (what was the name of that book again?), OH YEAH! "Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in NORTHWESTERN NEW SPAIN"

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Really! I was hoping you might know that, so lets go back to our original exchange........

I wrote:

"I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong,"

To which you replied:

[YES, you are COMPLETELY wrong here.

Maybe this description of the Jesuit Church at Puebla de Los Angeles will jog your memory (Puebla de Los Angeles is on the way from Vera Cruz to Mexico City):

"Via pleasant roads we finally reached Ozumba, one of the beautiful estates belonging to the Puebla college, and two hours distant from the city. .... Then we were driven into the city of Puebla de los Angeles in several coaches amid the cheers of a great multitude, and lodged in the great, splendid College of the Holy Ghost, where we were entertained as guests for three days. … [Regarding the cathedral in Puebla.] The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service..................."]

To which I explained that Puebla was not in Northern Mexico. In addition, Father Och was describing a secular church, not one belonging to the Jesuit's. So......In the context of our discussion, who was wrong?

Is it really necessary for me to highlight and underline all the pertinent points in my posts?

I would proceed to the Father Nentvig evidence , if we could put Father Och behind us.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

One wonders if some of the artifacts that Father Nentvig writes about, might have actually been silver plated as opposed to solid silver. Even if they were solid silver, how much could they have cost? Here is an elaborately engraved, solid silver, antique chalice:

http://www.aagaines.com/silver/indchalice.html

Father Nentvig mentions that there were only three of gold. Could they have been gold plated? Many of the nicer items in the missions were donated by wealthy patrons, and there were many of those. That would include the fine paintings.

I don't understand how you can offer a few sentences from Father's Och and Nentvig, and use that as an argument for Jesuit treasures and mining. That's especially true when you consider the fact that Father Och was describing a secular church.

Unbelievably thin evidence to base your conclusions on. I know there is much more, but when pressed, I would assume you would present your best case. Do you have something, historically, better?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

It only takes a few sentences to read what needs to be read:

Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service..................

YOU say he is referring only to Puebla de Los Angeles, but I do not agree.

Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections, were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe.

Father Polzer SJ does not seem to agree with your (and Lamar's) old argument about gilded silver.

I have never doubted that much of the Church's Wealth came from Tithes and Wills. I just say they had wealth. Nobody but you, Lamar, and SWR seem to disagree with that. The only really contentious thought is what was the level of Jesuit involvement in mining. The Jesuit Fathers agree with me in their writings. Father Polzer SJ agrees with me in his writings. My sources at Loyola Marymount and Georgetown agree with me.

My ideas regarding Jesuit Mining involvement are constantly in a state if flux as new information is found. Sometimes new information directly refutes old information, and sometimes it bolsters it. Just like the Stone Maps and the DLM, what I think changes based on currently available information.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"It only takes a few sentences to read what needs to be read:"

I see. That explains a good deal. If you only feel the need to read the short passages that support your belief that the Jesuit Mission Churches in Northern Mexico displayed opulent wealth, that would explain how you could use a secular church in Central Mexico to support your theory. I suppose the fact that a Jesuit priest wrote the description of that wealth would be the crutch you need to avoid admitting you have made an obvious blunder.
Mexico City and Puebla were not anything like Sonora.

You might want to consider reading the entire book, or at least the pages directly before and after the treasure "evidence" you wish to present in your arguments. I suppose that would not really have much effect, as you seem to have an aversion to admitting to any mistakes, something you find fault with in Lamar.

[I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrance's, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service..................."]

While these items may have been found in "abundance", few were to be found in Jesuit missions ", made of "finest gold". When you consider that chocolate was the biggest yearly expense for many of the Jesuits, perhaps you should be looking for Hershey Kisses.

Only those villages with a permanent priest/church would have had....."suchlike". Others would have them only when the Father's visited. That was a rare event in many cases.

"YOU say he is referring only to Puebla de Los Angeles, but I do not agree."

We were trying to establish the existence of a vast Jesuit treasure. The portion where he describes " the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrance's, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service",
could be construed to mean all of Mexico but the real opulence was described in the sentence before the above quote. For that era, the "silver candlesticks"......etc. would be considered minimal adornments.
YOU obviously find them extravagant.

[Father Polzer SJ does not seem to agree with your (and Lamar's) old argument about gilded silver.]

You do have a problem with understanding what you read, don't you. I would suggest you go back and reread my statement. If you still think the same way, ask someone to give you a hand. I did not argue that it was so, only asked if it was possible. In the same vein, pardon the pun, I would ask if it were possible that some of the items were "gilded". Since Father Polzer was not there, and none of the items survived to examine, he may have been wrong.

[I have never doubted that much of the Church's Wealth came from Tithes and Wills. I just say they had wealth. Nobody but you, Lamar, and SWR seem to disagree with that. The only really contentious thought is what was the level of Jesuit involvement in mining. The Jesuit Fathers agree with me in their writings. Father Polzer SJ agrees with me in his writings. My sources at Loyola Marymount and Georgetown agree with me.]

Once again you seem to be having trouble understanding what you read. I have never said the Jesuits had NO wealth, just that it was not documented in the Northern missions to the degree that you have claimed, citing Father Och's description of the opulence in the secular church of Puebla de Los Angeles as some kind of.....proof?

As to who agrees with you, including Father O'Malley, you are wrong. What Father O'Malley says is that it's possible. Since he has not done any research into Colonial Mexico, I doubt he would say anything else. If he basis his opinion on the countries he has researched, such as South America, he may even find it probable.

Father Polzer did not believe in the existence of treasure (from Jesuit mines) in Northern Mexico. On the other hand, he did like to discuss the legends with those who did.

I am still waiting to hear you explain how Puebla de Los Angeles is in Northern Mexico and how the wealth of a secular church in Central Mexico has anything to do with Jesuit wealth in Northern Mexico/Sonora.

This has been an interesting discussion, even though rife with inaccuracies.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I have often wondered why you have never used Santa Lucia as an example for Jesuit wealth. It is, after all, in the same area as your secular church......"evidence". Perhaps your reasoning had something to do with the truth of how the Jesuits obtained most of their funding and acquisitions.

Santa Lucia's history is very well documented, and paints a vivid picture of how the order became so powerful in Mexico, as well as the rest of the world. It seems those who believe, such as yourself, that the Jesuit wealth was derived from rich mines in Sonora, never want to acknowledge the popularity of the Jesuits with their wealthy patrons. It's difficult to wrap our modern minds around the absolute magnitude of their devotion to the order and their representatives in the New World.

Don Alonso de Villaseca is a shining example of that devotion and faith, but he was hardly alone in helping the Jesuits gather the tools of wealth and power. His gifts/donations were only part of the largess that the Jesuits benefited from.

Upon their arrival in Mexico City, in 1752, the Jesuits were immediately inundated with the attentions of wealthy and influential people eager to become patrons, or founders of the planned college to be created there. The many candidates were reduced to three choices. Don Martin Enriquez de Almansa; Don Francisco Michon Rodriguez; and Don Alonso de Villaseca.

An example of the devotion of these patrons can be found in the account of how Don Francisco Michon Rodriguez presented his case: "....in an exaggerated display of piety, prostrated himself before the Jesuit leaders and offered his haciendas, his properties in the city, and himself to the order, insisting he would not arise until accepted. But such public display and the impact of an open alliance with government officials did not find favor with the independent-minded Jesuits." Juan Sanchez Baquero, SJ

The Society Of Jesus had many enemies from their inception. The only thing that allowed them to survive so long, was the fact that they had so many wealthy and influential friends. In the end, it was the Kings own fears of the Jesuits influence/power that sealed their fate.

Take care and have a Very Merry Christmas,

Joe

 

[gollum]

WOW JOE!

Have you actually EVER read ANY of my posts?

Let's recap some:

I have never doubted that much of the Church's Wealth came from Tithes and Wills. I just say they had wealth. Nobody but you, Lamar, and SWR seem to disagree with that.

As you know, I agree with you on Jesuit Priests' direct involvement in mining. Their days were far too busy ministering to the needs of the Indians to be running any mines.

It has (for quite a while now) been my contention that the Jesuit Priests themselves never did any of the actual mining. Seems you should be well aware of that by now.

I have said it before, I don't believe the Mission Priests themselves had much to do with any mining. If you know all the things they were required to do normally, it doesn't leave much time for mining.

Material wealth went straight to the Colegios, while some was spent at the Mission Level for Church Adornments.

I have seen no absolute proof as to whether or not mining was carried out by orders from "ON HIGH", but as I have stated, that since it took no less than 18 YEARS for a man to take his final vows as a Jesuit, I doubt seriously that he would take the risk of committing a SIN by breaking the Jesuits' most important Vow of Obedience.

See Joe, for some time now (since I began cultivating my Coadjutor Theory), I have bent over backwards to give the Jesuit Priests the benefit of the doubt when it came to breaking their vow of obedience.

You can spew all the crap you want, but anyone that can read knows it's just that.

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: side semi useless bit of data. Iron had an extremely high value on the early frontera. Many times is was given a value higher than ole silver.

They even used cast silver shoes for the animals when iron was scarce, which actually were far better for certain trails which consisted of sheer rock. Being softer, they provided far better traction then iron even if they wore out quicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist".