gollum said:
Joe,
First, the discussion is about Jesuit Treasures PERIOD. Did/do they exist? Not just in Northern Mexico. PERIOD. I know what the thread is about ..... I started it.
Maybe you are the one who can't grasp what is being said. Maybe another restatement:
Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service...................
Maybe your hero Father Charles Polzer SJ might help you get the point:
"Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections, were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe.
Maybe Father Johan (Juan) Nentvig:
All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears
Best-Mike
Mike,
I am aware of what
your topic is about. Inside every topic most people follow the thread wherever it leads. It would seem that you are not "most people". Is it your opinion that the topic had drifted to
Central Mexico, as opposed to the area of
Sonora? I thought that was the area of most interest, as opposed to Jesuit treasure in the rest of the world.
As I have stated a number of times, if others want to focus on South America or China, that's no problem with me, but I must stick to what I have the most knowledge of. That would be the Jesuits in Northern Mexico/Sonora which,
I assume from the legends, is the area the Jesuits gathered the bulk of their Mexican treasure.
"Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service..................."
There are a number of problems with your quote. Here is the rest of the story:
"I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of the finest gold. Suchlike are found
in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service."
Even though there might be some ambiguity in the highlighted portion of the quote, it is less important than what follows on the very next page (31):
"The
secular government consists of Viceroy Bucareli, and eight or ten noble judges who are known as oidores."
Father Och was not writing about Jesuit wealth or treasure. He was writing about the
secular holdings. In addition to that, he was not including all of Mexico in "smallest villages", but was talking about the Diocese of Puebla. That my friend,
was not Jesuit, but secular.
Your first clue should have been when he mentions the
salary's of the "
Bishop of Puebla, and the twenty-five canons...".
When I wrote: "I don't believe that Father Och describes a single church in
Northern Mexico which could be construed as showing opulent wealth or treasure. I could be wrong,", you immediately offered the following statement:
[YES, you are COMPLETELY wrong here.
Maybe this description of the Jesuit Church at Puebla de Los Angeles will jog your memory (Puebla de Los Angeles is on the way from Vera Cruz to Mexico City):]
When I pointed out that Puebla de Los Angeles was not in
Northern Mexico, you switched to some rather foolish attacks about the topic being YOURS.....etc. "
Northern Mexico" was the operative phrase there.
"Maybe your hero Father Charles Polzer SJ might help you get the point:"
Father Polzer is not my "hero" but I have respect for his work.
"Many Missions prized their paintings by European and Mexican Masters. Gilded Altars, packed in sections,
were shipped from Mexico City or Guadalajara. Costly beeswax burned in solid silver candelabra. Indeed, the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe."
Since there were over 200 missions at the time of the expulsion, I imagine "the Padres could often claim quite justly that their frontier churches were equal to many a Cathedral in Europe." In relation to the number of Jesuit missions, could you put a number on...."often"?
"Maybe Father Johan (Juan) Nentvig:"
Father Nentvig was prone to elaboration of the facts.....somewhat like others on this forum. On the other hand, he wrote this:
"Concerning the Descripcion de Sonora, it had to be ready within a very limited time: before the departure of Senor Tienda de Cuervo [December 9, 1762]. The Descripcion is badly arranged. I
wrote it surreptitiously during the summer when my health was not so good.
Lacking necessary data, I requested information from various individuals who paid no attention to my appeals...
I would prefer that less credit be given to me alone for the writing of such an important work as the history of this province, to which I would gladly dedicate my efforts in a more thorough manner were it not for my endless occupations...and
my blindness has prevented me from reviewing my notes..."
Beyond that, there is this on the first page of the Preface:
"Father Juan Nentvig's manuscript was written in a century of exploration when people were willing to believe that far-off lands were filled with incredible mysteries;
it is crammed with information interlaced with colorful but impossible tales."
"1. Father Nentvig's Journals are beyond reproach. There is no doubt he wrote the words that I have attributed to him."
"Beyond reproach"?
In no way do I feel that the above quotes denigrate Father Nentvig's wonderful account, but at the same time, I believe the information must be taken into account when considering the entire manuscript.
Father Nentvig wrote in the style of his time.
Considering my qualifying statement focusing on "
Northern Mexico",
it was you who was "completely wrong". When I have made a stupid blunder, and it is brought to my attention, I always apologize for the mistake and manage to laugh at myself.
You should try that sometime.
Take care,
Joe
