cactusjumper
Gold Member
[Joe Joe Joe,
I would think that since you just explained to me how you have had a copy of Father Polzer's Book in your possession for many years that you would not have had to ask some of those questions! You talk about the "wealth" of the Franciscans, but maybe you can show me evidence of that wealth during the Colonial Period?
Since you have had the book for so long you should have already seen the narrative of Father Don Pedro Tapis. Soon after he was Consecrated the Bishop of Durango in 1715, he set off on a tour of his Diocese. He was neither a Jesuit nor a Franciscan. Read these two pages (55-56) paying special attention to the highlighted areas.
Best-Mike]
Mike, Mike, Mike,
It's a well know fact that the missions of Northern Mexico "were manifestly in need throughout most of their history, the Society always expressed great concern that the missionaries observe a strict personal poverty." "Rules and Precepts" by Charles W. Polzer.
What you seem to be doing is taking the ebullient writings of the early Jesuits, as proof of "massive wealth". In truth they seemed to be seeing their rather mean existence, in most cases, through rose colored glasses.
"Kino and his associates had made history. But their bright dreams of a sparkling stream on the Contra Costa bordered by rich and cultivated Vegas went a-glimmering. The day after his return to San Bruno Atondo certified that none of the lands discovered were suitable for planting. Kino was more optimistic, and he told of the exhilarating exploit in a letter to his old friend, Father Wolfgang Leinberer, in Germany. He was blessed with rose-colored glasses."
"For food Father Jacob had mostly sun-dried beef (tasajo or jerky) and tortillas, which he described for his German friends as "'cakes made of Indian corn and warmed on a little piece of iron.... The so-called tamales are miserable stuff... They are nothing but Indian corn dampened and grated, then rolled up again like an unshucked ear of corn, wrapped in some of the corn husks and eventually eaten. During our journey I was once obliged from stern necessity to eat this stuff for ten days.'" It is too bad for Baegert that he did not have rose-hued glasses such as Kino always wore. The two men represented diametrically opposite types."
Both quotes are from "Rim Of Christendom" by Herbert Eugene Bolton.
As for individual church adornments, I would recommend that you read "The First Jesuits" by Father John W. O'Malley. Pay particular attention starting on page 295. While Father O'Malley has not done much research into the Jesuits of Mexico, IMHO, he knows the early history of the Order better than anyone alive.
I do know Father Polzer's work very well, and will be happy to discuss his personal opinions on the "Rules and Precepts...." anytime. Those opinion, in fact, lend some credence to the possibility that the Jesuits may have ignored both of those directives when they felt it was expedient.
That would follow the personal and published opinions of Father O'Malley closely.
Take care,
Joe
I would think that since you just explained to me how you have had a copy of Father Polzer's Book in your possession for many years that you would not have had to ask some of those questions! You talk about the "wealth" of the Franciscans, but maybe you can show me evidence of that wealth during the Colonial Period?
Since you have had the book for so long you should have already seen the narrative of Father Don Pedro Tapis. Soon after he was Consecrated the Bishop of Durango in 1715, he set off on a tour of his Diocese. He was neither a Jesuit nor a Franciscan. Read these two pages (55-56) paying special attention to the highlighted areas.
Best-Mike]
Mike, Mike, Mike,
It's a well know fact that the missions of Northern Mexico "were manifestly in need throughout most of their history, the Society always expressed great concern that the missionaries observe a strict personal poverty." "Rules and Precepts" by Charles W. Polzer.
What you seem to be doing is taking the ebullient writings of the early Jesuits, as proof of "massive wealth". In truth they seemed to be seeing their rather mean existence, in most cases, through rose colored glasses.
"Kino and his associates had made history. But their bright dreams of a sparkling stream on the Contra Costa bordered by rich and cultivated Vegas went a-glimmering. The day after his return to San Bruno Atondo certified that none of the lands discovered were suitable for planting. Kino was more optimistic, and he told of the exhilarating exploit in a letter to his old friend, Father Wolfgang Leinberer, in Germany. He was blessed with rose-colored glasses."
"For food Father Jacob had mostly sun-dried beef (tasajo or jerky) and tortillas, which he described for his German friends as "'cakes made of Indian corn and warmed on a little piece of iron.... The so-called tamales are miserable stuff... They are nothing but Indian corn dampened and grated, then rolled up again like an unshucked ear of corn, wrapped in some of the corn husks and eventually eaten. During our journey I was once obliged from stern necessity to eat this stuff for ten days.'" It is too bad for Baegert that he did not have rose-hued glasses such as Kino always wore. The two men represented diametrically opposite types."
Both quotes are from "Rim Of Christendom" by Herbert Eugene Bolton.
As for individual church adornments, I would recommend that you read "The First Jesuits" by Father John W. O'Malley. Pay particular attention starting on page 295. While Father O'Malley has not done much research into the Jesuits of Mexico, IMHO, he knows the early history of the Order better than anyone alive.
I do know Father Polzer's work very well, and will be happy to discuss his personal opinions on the "Rules and Precepts...." anytime. Those opinion, in fact, lend some credence to the possibility that the Jesuits may have ignored both of those directives when they felt it was expedient.
That would follow the personal and published opinions of Father O'Malley closely.
Take care,
Joe