JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[somehiker]

There is another result on the first google result page "A comprehensive history of India, civil, military and social" that reports the same information.So now we have three references,two British and one French,that include mention of Father Lavaur's savings.The British versions are notably scathing in their criticism of the Father and do question the matter of his honesty,but not the existence of his missives,or the matter of his gold.The version that The Executioner Sanson provides is less critical of the Father,but describes a large amount of gold,without stating a value,perhaps out of respect for his memory.

I do sincerely thank both yourself and Lamar for your input in this lively debate.
May you both have a happy and rewarding new year.

Regards:SH

 

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[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

Proof has been posted? Are you referring to the speculation and self-interpretation that was/has/is being constantly posted in this thread?

I've seen that "proof" constantly questioned, without validation. Did we ever get any validation or documentation stating picking up copper, on top of the ground, was considered as mining back then? Nope. Yet...somehow.....it is proof?

Are you serious? Speculation and self-interpretation? Do you have reading comprehension problems? Constantly questioning evidence does not equate with disproving it. You are ignoring a mass of evidence, apparently so you can keep your negative view.

As for the picking up copper on the surface being placer mining, you have apparently missed the whole discussion of the Planchas de Plata silver deposit - they were picking up the slabs and balls of silver on the surface, and YES it was considered MINING IN THE 1700's. It is considered placer mining today - read a copy of the 1872 Mining Act and pay special attention to the placer claims section. The link has been posted previously. What is puzzling is, how did you miss that? I get the impression you must have very little experience in mining and prospecting.

I have never once seen you, SWR, post something positive in any thread you are posting in, always your words are negative. I once offered to assist you in researching a treasure in your own area, any treasure at all, and you ignored my offer, well consider that offer as expired - apparently you don't research any lost treasures, just expend your intellect in trying to discourage other treasure hunters. With your negative stance towards the whole of our subject matter, it is a serious handicap to your ever finding treasure - perhaps you ought to seek out a different line of work? Judging only from what you post, you seem to be an extremely pessimistic person, which is not conducive for successful treasure hunting. You and your amigo Lamar make quite a pair, and I sure wish you good luck in your quest for treasures - it is very difficult to find something you don't beleive exists.

Lamar, how do you miss the fact that the Jesuit was found to have a large sum of gold? That appears to have been the salient point of Somehiker's post.

Wishing you all a very Happy New Year,
Oroblanco

Postscript - hmm how much of a hard case treasure hunter is it that he or she is on Treasurenet on New Years Eve, when the rest of the world is out celebrating?

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings amigos,
As for Lamar's claims that the other Catholic Orders are not accused of having mines in Spanish America, that their "skirts are clean" (as if having been the first miners is a blot) we have already mentioned the Castilian priest who found gold in Arizona, here is one example of Franciscans having a mine (which was later re-discovered by Americans)

In this way the localities of many of the richest mines of New Mexico have been lost. As the section in which this remarkable old mine is situated is a portion of the mineral bearing mountain system of New Mexico we will here give a condensed account of the mine and its history. The locality and history of the mine called the Mina del Padre having been gathered from the old church records at El Paso several gentlemen there determined to re open it which they did in the winter of 1872-3. The year 1680 was the year the mine was discovered by the monks of the order of Saint Francis in charge of the church at El Paso the same year the Spaniards under Governor and Captain General Otermin were all expelled from New Mexico by the Pueblo Indians. Skilled in the science of mineralogy they were not slow to discover the extraordinary richness of the Padre vein and their knowledge of the art of metallurgy enabled them to work it very profitably for many years. From the silver obtained from this mine most of the churches in northern Chihuahua were enriched and endowed.

The Jesuits were never friendly to the Franciscans and when in the early part of the eighteenth century the order of Jesuits obtained complete control in Spain it was not long ere the barefooted Franciscans were ordered to depart from Mexico and surrender their rich possessions to the dominant Jesuits. When information of the coming change reached the monks at El Paso they quietly covered the mine and obliterated as near as possible all traces of its existence. Years passed on the Jesuits if they had learned the secret of the silver treasure never availed themselves of it.

In 1792 the mine was again opened and worked for several years by a company of Mexican gentlemen. The works for the reduction of the ores were situated near the river banks of the Rio del Norte or Rio Grande The revolution of 1810 followed by the declaration and establishment of Mexican independence again interrupted the working of the mine and it was a second time filled up and abandoned and so remained until the late re discovery and re opening. This was done at considerable trouble and expense. A shaft was sunk ninety feet through the material which had been used to fill up the mine and which from lapse of time had become almost as firmly cemented together as the original soil. Although the main lode is not yet reached the ores that have been taken out during the progress of excavation prove to be unusually rich. Soon after it was opened a gentleman arrived upon the ground who had come from California expressly to search for this very mine having obtained there some clue to its value and its locality. He was not aware that similar data had been obtained at El Paso and he was just in time to be too late. The mine is situated at the southern point of the Organ mountains here about 1,500 feet high two and a half miles from the City of El Paso and is a lode or vein of black chloride of silver containing sulphurets the out cropping about forty feet wide.

<from New Mexico, her natural resources and attractions,1874 >

This is only one example out of many. The ONE big difference is that we don't see Franciscans or Castilians or Augustinians or Dominicans or any other Order besides the Jesuits making denials of mining activities.

Dear reader we thank you for your patience and perseverance to read through the lengthy discussion we whom have been actively posting, in which both sides of this issue have been presenting their case. I will now make my closing argument, and you may judge for yourselves.

The Jesuits arrived in the New World in the 16th century, and were given the task of reducing the natives into mission-centered settlements, very like the same task assigned to Franciscans in New Mexico. These missions had to be self-supporting, they could not operate indefinitely on a subsidy from the Royal government. The Jesuit fathers were educated and intelligent, and were among the first explorers to penetrate various parts of the country. Father Kino in particular was a notable explorer, cattleman and prospector. The discoveries of silver and gold by the missionaries we are supposed to believe were utterly ignored by the padres, so that in the midst of poverty with the Indians, they were only putting the Indians to work herding the cattle or sheep, and working in the fields. From various sources we have testimony to the contrary - that the Jesuits were also putting the Indians to work in mines, which they were keeping secret from the Spanish Royal authorities.

In the case of the Planchas de Plata we are given an example of what would happen, when the civil authorities learned of such discoveries - they were taken away from the missionaries. The silver and gold produced from their secret enterprises served to ornament the over 100 Jesuit missions located in New Spain, and the excess was shipped out to the Vatican. From the reports of the pirates who raided them,and from recent recoveries from sunken Spanish shipwrecks, we know that the wealth being shipped was great. In a number of Spanish colonial cities, beneath the various churches, missions and convents, special treasure vault rooms were built to conceal and protect this wealth from the pirates, and from the Spanish royal authorities.

We know that in other colonies, the Jesuits hid their mines and kept secret directions how to relocate them, and that Jesuit lay brothers later returned to rediscover and lay claim to them. It is clear that the Jesuits had every intention of returning to reclaim those mines and hidden caches of treasures.

The apologists continually point to the Jesuit's vow of personal poverty as proof that they had no such riches, yet this vow pertained only to the person, not to the Society of Jesus nor the Catholic Church, in which true title of the treasure and mines was seated. We are not concerned with whom was the titular owner of those mines and treasures, for possession is 9/10ths of the law, and it was in the hands of the Jesuits in many areas. In New Mexico it was (mostly) in the hands of the Franciscans.

Our Jesuit apologists and the extreme skeptics will never accept that the Jesuits had mines and considerable riches, for from Bancroft to Polzer the record has been changed, and for some reason the Jesuits now deny they ever had anything of the kind. This despite published statements of Jesuits, such as Polzer admitting that two padres had been caught mining, which pertains only to a single district and ignores the numerous other sites all over Mexico and parts of the American southwest. Why do we suppose that in virtually every land where the Jesuits were active in the New World, we also have "legends" of lost Jesuit mines? Anti-catholic rhetoric?

At the root of virtually all legends is a factual event. Don't expect to see our history books get corrected, to grant the credit to the Jesuits and blame for having been the first Europeans to do any mining in the western USA, for there are vested interests at stake and the Jesuits continual denials prevent any such editing.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, there is much more evidence than what we have posted here if you care to do the research; and remember, for the Jesuit apologists version to be true, there must be NO evidence of any kind that they ever had any mines or hid any treasures. Wishing you all a very happy new year,
Oroblanco

 

[whitt459]

hi oro! i think you have summed it up to a (T) if there are people that can not accept this they are too blindsided to even try to reason with so let us all just ignore them and have a very healthy and prosperous new year. whitt459

 

[whitt459]

 

[Infosponge]

A job well done Oro! Happy New Year to you too.

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias amigos, I hope we have gone some way to at least clear the air on this topic.
Wishing you all a very happy new year,
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

SWR:
Some of these older history books only list the sources of information.Since they predate the internet it makes it more difficult to locate the type of historical document that you request from me.
Much like one's adherence to a particular religious dogma,some of what we all choose to believe is based more on faith than multiple "official" documents.Sources such as the Lettres Édifiantes Et Curieuses Des Jésuites De Chine, 1702-1776 compiled by Charles Le Gobien,a French Jesuit and a well respected theological writer and historical authority within the faith has been frequently cited as the source for archival documents.The history of Father Lavaur is part of that collection and I "surmise" that the Lettres Édifiantes was the source for the British version of the history.The French version,being based on the written words of the "Executioner of Paris" supports the existence of at least the gold.
Unfortunately,it seems that most of the history,as we know it,of the deeds and accomplishments of the padres is contained merely in volumes of letters or journals,unsupported by official bureaucratic documentation.Most of these letters recount the events as witnessed by the writers,thus limiting our understanding of the history involved and our belief or dis-belief becomes a matter of faith.
There may be,amongst piles of dusty documents somewhere,an inventory of the valuables confiscated by the crown from the residence of Fr.Lavaur.I have no ideological reason to doubt the monetary value,cited as some 60,000 pounds sterling,or the veracity of the account,as related by the references cited.

Regards:SH

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning swr, I see that we are going to have a fine year.

A) You posted --> All of the physical evidence seemed to had vanished into thin air, as it were
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From recent official gov't data, I am reminded for some reason of the clinton era. Important data just somehow became lost, along with important memory loss, as stated before congress and judicial authorities..
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B) You posted --> Did we ever get any validation or documentation stating picking up copper, on top of the ground, was considered as mining back then? Nope. Yet...somehow.....it is proof?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, documentation was presented, but you conveniently jumped to another topic without acknowledging it Is this a defensive tactic?? Wasn't what was presented sufficient?
****************************************************************

C) You posted--> What is "a large sum of gold" in that time and place? $20...$50...$100 ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am curious , just what do YOU consider a large sum of money in that period of time? Most referr to this in accordance with their personal financial status.

At times to me $ 5 was a huge amount, However times change, today. $100 looks fairly nice to me. .

In 1941 when I entered the military service, I earned $30 a month and had money to spare..

As for vague amounts, perhaps you will do me the favor of describing to me just where exactly the money for our recent gov't efforts to boost the economy via the Banking inst. went, both individually per inst, and personally for the various CEO's. Naturally I prefer valid, unshakable documentation, not just an unbacked up gov't notation.
*****************************************************************
D) You posted --> I'll be the bigger man and not respond to the childish personal attacks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wish to see 'unbiased documentation' of this remark for proof, or I must consider it to be simply a personal evasion in lieu of an valid answer.
*****************************************************************

E) You posted --> Of course, that's just my opinion. I like to discuss real history using real documentation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So do I, the question is, what is real documentation?? As a recent example, my friend who is a school teacher in Japan
sent me a letter that in many schools it is now semi compulsory to teach that Japan was the victim in WW-2, not the aggressor. That the real reason that she bombed Pearl Harbor was because of the Atomic bombing of Japan. ?

and a happy new year to you swr.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

Actually,as I fancifully proposed in my response to Cactusjumper's fictionalized tale of Jesuit treasure,it is probably in the best interest of seekers of same,to "let sleeping dogs lie" as it were.As long as the preponderance of documented evidence tips the scale in favour of denial of Jesuit treasure and experts abound who have staked their professional credibility on such denial,it follows logic that any cache of non-existent Jesuit wealth if discovered could be morally "troved" as so much mere modern trash.Interesting,no?

Regards:SH

 

[Springfield]

Actually,as I fancifully proposed in my response to Cactusjumper's fictionalized tale of Jesuit treasure,it is probably in the best interest of seekers of same,to "let sleeping dogs lie" as it were.As long as the preponderance of documented evidence tips the scale in favour of denial of Jesuit treasure and experts abound who have staked their professional credibility on such denial,it follows logic that any cache of non-existent Jesuit wealth if discovered could be morally "troved" as so much mere modern trash.Interesting,no?

Regards:SH

It's dogmatism, a technique used for millenia by authorities to maintain control over people's minds. Fortunately, there have always been those who question the book answer and explore other options.

 

[somehiker]

Happy New Year Springfield:

It is nice to know that we travel a different trail than they.
Ours will yield the treasure.
The trinkets will be theirs.

Regards:SH

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings SWR (and everyone reading this of course, but this message is for SWR, with the hope that Lamar will also take note.)

SWR wrote

You are comparing silver and copper as the same? You say picking up loose copper-balls in the 1700s...but, still haven't validated it as historically correct. If it wasn't allowed...what would the possibilities of Father Och putting it in his journals be.

In the eyes of the law, metals are locatable minerals and are indeed "the same" for legal purposes, with rare exceptions in MODERN times. Since you still do not accept this surface picking of metals by Jesuits as placer mining as defined in the time period (1700's) I suggest you research the whole matter of the Planchas de Plata, which has already been posted but more details are available and since this remains questionable to YOU (it is not questioned by myself) the burden of researching this matter remains with you.

SWR also wrote

I'll be the bigger man and not respond to the childish personal attacks

My statements were not intended as a personal attack, merely an observation on your posting habits, which are of a pattern which is negative in nature. This apparent stance on your part is not helpful to your finding treasures. It is helpful to treasure hunters to "weed out" false information, but you go far beyond this and cast doubts and aspersions on every source posted, which is in support of the historical reality of lost treasures and/or mines. If you think this is being helpful to your fellow treasure hunters, I must respectfully disagree.

As for your standards of excellence in source materials, I again point out that we are treasure hunters on a family oriented site, not a scholarly forum dedicated to finding out whether the people living in a tent-city portion of a ghost town used grommets in their canvas (yes I was a part of just such a study; interesting but not helpful in any way to finding any treasures) and we do not have the standards of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, which I have also pointed out has been found to have errors. Our standards are of a different nature, perhaps not high enough to suit you personally, but consider that most newspapers require only that a report have a second source to provide "proof" that the report is in fact true, and we have provided a number of sources. They include:

Jesuit historian Father Polzer, highly respected as an expert in the history of Arizona, cited for his recording of Jesuit rules and precepts against mining and business for profit, as well as openly admitting of two instances where Jesuit priests were caught mining and punished for it.

The Royal Geographic Society, respected worldwide for their expertise
The Arizona Bureau of Mines,
Two Governors of Arizona Territory
Jesuit Father Och, and I would point out to you that he was perfectly SAFE when he was writing his memoirs, as he was then in Europe not Sonora
Jesuit Father Nentvig, whose Rudo Ensayo is one of the very few sources we have with good and fairly accurate descriptions of the settlements, mines and geography of the region as it was in the 1760's
Catholic Bishop Palafox, whose letters of complaint against the Jesuits were largely supported by Pope Innocent
The US Superintendant of Mining Statistics
The official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico
The internet version history of the city of Pozos, Mexico
Jesuit Father Keller's letter to Father Stiger, reporting on his hiding church valuables
Father Hernando de Cabrero, Visitor on keeping certain communications secret
Photos of various Jesuit churches in the Americas, showing beautiful and rich ornamentation, including one with seven tons of gold
The King of Spain's order expelling the Jesuits
Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga repeating the rule against Jesuits mining
Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia repeating the rule against Jesuits mining
Father Alonso de Arrivillaga instructing Jesuits to burn incriminating letters and documents
Thomas Edward Farish, Arizona historian
The public internet site for the city of Cananea, Mexico
A photo of huge furnaces for smelting of silver in Mexico built by Jesuits
Author Robert Cooper West
The internet page on Jesuits in the city of San Luis de la Paz, Mexico
The US Bureau of Statistics, Treasury Department
Mining magazine: devoted to mines, mining operations, metallurgy & c, Volume 8, 1857
Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ...
By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. Dirección General MINING AND CIVIL ENGINEER CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL OFFICES OF MINES AND GEOLOGY, reported on many Jesuit mines and included a direct translation of a Jesuit-owned mining claim document.
A report written by a pirate who actually served with Captain Morgan telling of the church riches, The Buccaneers of America, in the original English translation of 1684, by John Esquemeling
Father Alonso de Arrivillaga & Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo
CMK Paulison, Arizona promoter and historian
Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris <Jesuit Relations, letter from Jesuit on delightful profits they are making which are in direct opposition to the rule against their trade in furs>
Jesuit Father Gravier reporting on his prospecting for mines
Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, a highly respected source I will point out
Ex-jesuit Paul Hoensbroech (Graf von), for his letter of Bishop Palafox and for Jesuit wealth discovered on their arrests and expulsions in Europe
Memoirs of Saint-Simon
Journal of the American Geographical Society of New York
Johannes Janssen, German historian
Jesuit Ernest J. Burrus, editor of Ducrue's account of the Jesuits expulsion from CA
Jesuit Father Baegert, for his reporting that the Jesuits were indeed accused of mining
The Jesuit Relation for 1659 Sent to Reverend Father Claude Boucher, Provincial of the Province of France. reporting on the discovery of a gold vein which the Jesuits kept their lay workmen from by pretending it was "brass" which would not occur in nature that way
Harper's Magazine, highly respected for their Civil War coverage
The resources of Arizona: its mineral, farming, and grazing lands, towns ...
By Patrick Hamilton, Arizona. Legislative Assembly 1881
The New York Times
Frank S. Ingalls Report to Congress of 1906
Reports from the consuls of the United States, Issues 81-84
By United States. Bureau of Foreign Commerce, 1887
Bishop Antonio de los Reyes <ornaments in the missions as you found them after Jesuit expulsion>
The hand-book to Arizona: its resources, history, towns, mines, ruins and ...
By Richard Josiah Hinton 1878
New Mexico, her natural resources and attractions: By Elias Brevoort, 1874, self-published but with excellent sources listed in his preface
The US Forest Service for their definition of mining
Papal Bull Dominus ac Redemptor signed by Pope Clement XIV
The National Park Service (holds many interesting Jesuit and Spanish colonial documents)
New Advent.org a Catholic run website, historical data on Jesuit punishments for Indians
Codelco Chile Corporation (a mining company which owns a former Jesuit mine in Chile)
Martin Hunter, former official of the Hudson Bay Company
A candid history of the Jesuits By Joseph McCabe
History of the north Mexican states, Volume 1 By Hubert Howe Bancroft, Henry Lebbeus Oak, Joseph Joshua Peatfield, William Nemos
Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana,Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla
The history of California By Franklin Tuthill, SAN FRANCISCO HH BANCROFT & COMPANY 1866
Ecuador: its ancient and modern history, topography and natural resources ... By Charles Reginald Enock,NEW YORK 1914
History of the Jesuits: from the foundation of their society to ..., Volume 1 By Andrew Steinmetz, pp 421 PHILADELPHIA LEA AND BLANCHARD 1848
"Jesuit Saints and Blesseds" a website OF the Society of Jesus
Mindat.org, an internet database of mines around the world
COUNTY RESOURCE SERIES No 1 SEPT 26 1916 SANTA CRUZ COUNTY ARIZONA THE OLDEST MINING REGION OF RECORD ON THE PACIFIC OF THE UNITED STATES By Allen T Bird University of Arizona
Mission Guevavi excavation by William J. Robinson, published in the KIVA, vol 42, No. 2. 1976
Luz de Tierra Incognita by Spanish Captain Juan Mateo Manje, who accompanied Father Kino on some of his explorations
Jesuit Father and now Saint Eusebio Kino
The Bankers' magazine, and statistical register, Volume 32 Arizona and Silver Mining, George R Gibson April 1878
Reverend Victor B. Stoner's 1937 Thesis, titled "THE SPANISH MISSIONS OF THE SANTA CRUZ VALLEY."
New Handy Atlas By McNally and Co Rand, Rand McNally and Company, Chigaco and New York, 1892
Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the LETTER from THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY by United States Dept of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond, United States Commissioner of Mining Statistics, GEO S BOUTWELL Secretary of the Treasury 1871
Terry's Mexico: handbook for travellers, SONORA NEWS COMPANY Callé de las Estaciones 12 Mexico City Mexico T. Philip Terry, 1911
A letter from Captain Juan Bautista de Anza to Bishop Benito Crespo, January 7, 1737
Modern History being a continuation of the Universal History Volume 39
By George Sale, George Psalmanazar, Archibald Bower, George Shelvocke, John Campbell, John Swinton, London 1763




In response to the various information posted to try to settle this whole matter, you have repeatedly denounced all of it as,

Speculative, Self-interpreted, Bizarre, Made-up, Nothing, assumptions, 5000 words of speculation repeated over and over, not helpful, something somebody interpretated of what might have been thinking, conspiracy theories, ya got nothing, no historical facts, legends and folklore, proof reading and fact checking went out the window when this little ditty went to print, No, you haven't provided any references or sources validating your theory, these conspiracy theories, Only rumor/hearsay/speculation

...these comments interspersed with sarcasms as...

"yeppers, here ya go, OK times up, conspiracy theorists such as yourself,Jesuit Treasures...are they real? Nope. Has anyone ever found any Jesuit Treasures? Nope,Using gollum's flawed logic....those who believe are simply showing their ignorance drink the kool-aid kinda gimmicks, That's kind of a stretch, ain't it? cheap shots, That's how conspiracy theorists create something out of thin air. You just made that up, every conspiracy theorists dream. Roy...you seem to do a lot of copy/pasting off the internet without checking the credentials, You just now made that up STOP making stuff up, You seem to accept anything written...without question or examination, as evidence."
."
& similar rather as if you are baiting for some kind of flame war.

As for your expectation and demand to see Jesuit documents which will prove this whole case beyond a shadow of a doubt, I will point out to you "Rule 21 orders that Ours will not communicate to laymen anything that redounds to the discredit of Our Missionaries" so it will be a rare document indeed.

Now I and most of us here have made every attempt to be respectful and civil in our responses, but your constant denials and dismissals studded with sarcasm could test the patience of Job himself. You will likely see this whole post as some kind of a personal attack, which it is not intended to be - I am trying to show you how much you have denounced as sources and how your posts are coming across. You are not satisfied with the case as presented, well that is no skin off my nose whether you agree that Jesuit treasures and mines are real or not. If you had a real interest in the subject you would do some of your own research instead of just belittling and dismissing the source material (and yes conclusions reached) posted by other members of our little community.

You will likely find fault in the fact that I have again re-posted the sources we have cited in our posts, and I have skipped some in that list - it is included for the sake of pointing up just how much you are dismissing, and I would add that there is MUCH more than what has been posted - you would learn this if you did any research into this whole matter.

If anything I have said is offensive to you (or anyone) my apologies are now offered, for none of it is intended to be offensive. I do hope you and yours (and everyone reading our public debate) will have a very happy and prosperous new year, and that you will find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Roy,

It seems to me that you would have stopped getting baited by SWR by now!?! None of his posts have ever been about gaining knowledge but to elicit a response.

He challenges something and you spend a lot of time pulling out resources and research, then either cut-and-paste or spend a lot of time typing a response, when he doesn't give a crap what your response is. All he wants is to keep an argument going.

One thing I have learned to do is to carefully read any challenge or question. It is usually pretty easy to determine if that challenge or question is designed to gain knowledge or just gainsay your statement. He may or may not have any knowledge of the subject, but he NEVER adds any knowledge to any discussion he enters into. When I see him ask a serious question I will answer it. Until then he can stick his tongue in a fan! HAHAHA

Happy New Year-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Mike - you are right, as so often you are. SWR is a treasure hunter after all, and we keep trying to bring him round to our side, but I have serious doubts that is possible anymore.

I hope we have presented a strong enough case for our readers. Good luck and good hunting buddy - wishing you a very happy and prosperous new year!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Along those lines..... I will ask once again, can you give me the names of three Jesuits, their missions and the years they operated their mines. Please limit yourself to Northern Mexico, as I am not that interested in the rest of the world.

Answers like Roy's, while probably accurate, create a shotgun approach to what should be a focused question. I would like to focus on a few legends at a time.

I have already said that I believe the Jesuits were, in the final analysis, just men. There is little doubt that some broke the rules, as well as gathered some gold/silver from mining. What I am searching for is evidence that, at the time of the expulsion, they had vast wealth and treasure.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Happy New Year everyone,

A "shotgun" approach is what the subject matter of our topic is, whether the "legends" (plural) of Jesuit treasures and mines are real, not whether the story of the treasure room of Tumacacori is real, we already have a thread something like that. Or have I misunderstood our true delineations of our topic matter?
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

[Dear Lamar,

I wouldn’t be so suspicious if it wasn’t for the fact that all the pages are missing for the years prior to 1741, and those pages cover the time of the Planchas de Plata discovery. The only other pages which are missing are those right before the expulsion, and nothing in between. Your quick and convenient explanation might be a bit more believable if pages were missing randomly throughout the entire book.

Your overly suspicious friend,

Infosponge]

Are you quite sure there are no pages from the period prior to 1741?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Is there some reason why my question can't be answered? Perhaps it is not specific enough. Can you give me the name of one Jesuit, his mission and the years he had a working mine? If possible, I would like to stick to Northern Mexico.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

Maybe if you posted a higher resolution copy of that page, I could tell.

The first page you posted is actually the page referenced in Infosponge's Scan. The fourth paragraph begins 19 Febrero 1741.

I can't make out anything from the B&W Scan you posted.

Best-Mike