JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[HPardo]

Jesuits expulsion and their treasures.

Hey Kanacki,

Did you read the actual document. Either the translator left a LOT out, or they translated the numbers all wrong. Go to the name "Bernardo Rodriguez", then look at the first count: "Dos ciento ochenta y quatro zurrones de a dos mil pesos cada uno". That translates to "284 bags of 2000 pesos each". In the translation, the number translated is "623,211 pesos". The math doesn't add up. Even if you do the math from my translation, it adds up to 568,000 pesos (284x2000).

or maybe they just added up everything on the page. Too much for me right now. At least its Cortesana and not Chainscript LOL.

Mike

Hey, Mike!!! You're right!
In fact, it is my fault not to publish all the documents.
It is my research and I don't wish to publish all.
Posterior, in the wreck documents, the skipper declares the sum I said.

"(...) On April 14, 1770, the following day, Don Salvador Moreno y La Corte, sailing master of the Spanish frigate called "Nuestra Sra. de la Concepción y San Nicolás de Bari" alias "La Felicidad"; who was also onboard "La Gamela", appeared before the authorities of Montevideo and stated: (...) Bernardo Rodríguez, with the registry of silver and gold, in amount of six hundred and twenty-three thousand two hundred and eleven pesos five and three real quarters of silver minted, seventeen one thousand eight hundred and twenty-three gold pesos, all in two hundred and eighty-eight bags; sixty-four sacks of vicuña wool and others that consisted on books; sailing with the destination of this port of Montevideo to transfer his cargo to the mentioned ship, and having arrived on the thirteenth day of the same month, he touched the aforementioned boat (… exact location) where it was lost, (...)"​

As you probably know, the statements of the lost cargo change from the very first declaration until the final account. That is because the contrabando that they carried onboard. It happens in all shipwrecks with treasure.

In the other hand, keep on mind that I have no intention to cheat about the real sum of the treasure. It has not sense. At least, to me. But I have to say that I didnt' realize that my post will take such attention. Thank you for read my post and analize the document. It is a hard job read old spanish. As I wrote to other fellow of you, hope that you can forgive my English.

My best,
Horacio Pardo

 

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[HPardo]

I agree with the math. The first time reading it I used a calculator and could not come up with the figure. I suspect there is more than one page. Without a picture of the Original full correspondence, we are hamstrung in seeing how they came up with that figure. Its one of the dangers of cherry picking statements from such documents as things can be taken out of context.

Kanacki

Kanacki! You are right too as Mike! And some other guy that comment on my post... Exactly! There are more that one page. I never will publish the entire documents until my research and treasure salvage were finished. As I wrote to Mike, thank you for your attention and hope that can forgive my English.

My best,
Horacio Pardo

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Horatio

Thank you for your interesting comments. It answers a few questions.

I was in Buenos Aires in 1998 in archives after documents in regards to later 19th century privateers. How your project going these days? Your project has been going for a long time 25 odd years. What is the status of the Animas Project are you still salvaging? Do you still have your permit?

Kanacki

 

[gollum]

Horacio,

No apologies are necessary for your language. Your English Grammar is better than my Spanish Grammar, and far better than my Portuguese! HAHAHA While I am able to translate Colonial Spanish Documents (in four handwriting styles), it doesn't come easily, as I am 100% self taught.

I wish you the best of luck with your Animas Project.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Horacio,

No apologies are necessary for your language. Your English Grammar is better than my Spanish Grammar, and far better than my Portuguese! HAHAHA While I am able to translate Colonial Spanish Documents (in four handwriting styles), it doesn't come easily, as I am 100% self taught.

I wish you the best of luck with your Animas Project.


................one more thing, could you please post (or email me) a higher resolution shot of that Mission Map?

Mike

 

[HPardo]

Hello Horatio

Thank you for your interesting comments. It answers a few questions.

I was in Buenos Aires in 1998 in archives after documents in regards to later 19th century privateers. How your project going these days? Your project has been going for a long time 25 odd years. What is the status of the Animas Project are you still salvaging? Do you still have your permit?

Kanacki

Helllo Kanacki!

I am happy if I filled in the blanks regarding the final sum of the lost treasure of the last Jesuit goods in "South America."

You were in Buenos Aires (BA) in 1998 in the National Archive of Argentina? I hope you found what you were looking for. It is a large file and is not ordered like the Washington Public Library (I was there).

If we had met, I would have taught you the tricks to find the information of the privateers that is not always in the indexes. There is also a lot of information in the National Archives in Uruguay, which are absolutely messy. But once you know how it works, it takes time but you can find a lot of additional information. So ... do you speak or read Spanish! Beautiful!

Regarding my salvage contract, the answer is yes. I am waiting for the next summer season. And yes ... too many years ... many come and go ... Mel Fisher passed away ... Later, Barry Clifford also gave up because he couldn't work on his projects in Madagascar, Cape Cod, his television show in California (two seasons) and Uruguay (at the end of the world!) Too many at the same time. So I took the job with my own finances until I could and stopped due to lack of money. And now I'm starting over. After I had a close relationship with Mel Fisher, I met his real life "before" Atocha ... nothing scares me. It is just the life of treasure hunting.

I have to say that the project covers three shipwrecks in the same area. Seems to me that the jesuit ship crashed against other one that sunk a couple of month before. So the area it is a mess of stuff from one year to other. Shallow waters. 4 meters deep at most. Non visible waters. Boat hull covered with lead... Other with bronze... All of them under two meters of sand... really a messy salvage ops in non visible waters makes the job harder. It is not easy. It is a big challenge! But I will!!!

Thanks for your reading!
My best,
Horacio Pardo
[email protected]​

Non visible waters...


Confusion of salvaged pieces... (for me!)


Some other artifacts...


Barry Clifford and PhD John De Bry in Uruguay...

 

[HPardo]

Horacio,

No apologies are necessary for your language. Your English Grammar is better than my Spanish Grammar, and far better than my Portuguese! HAHAHA While I am able to translate Colonial Spanish Documents (in four handwriting styles), it doesn't come easily, as I am 100% self taught.

I wish you the best of luck with your Animas Project.

Mike

Thanks Mike for your good wishes!

Sometimes I feel obligated to clarify my posts, since my English is horrible in order to avoid any confusion about my research. You know ... this world of treasure hunting is full of fairy tales.

My best,
Horacio Pardo
[email protected]

 

[gollum]

Horacio,

No apologies are necessary for your language. Your English Grammar is better than my Spanish Grammar, and far better than my Portuguese! HAHAHA While I am able to translate Colonial Spanish Documents (in four handwriting styles), it doesn't come easily, as I am 100% self taught.

I wish you the best of luck with your Animas Project.


................one more thing, could you please post (or email me) a higher resolution shot of that Mission Map?

Mike

 

[HPardo]

Jesuits Mission at South America old map

Horacio,

(...) one more thing, could you please post (or email me) a higher resolution shot of that Mission Map?

Mike

Dear Mike...

I found it at Google using this keywords:

mapa misiones jesuitas siglo 18


I uploaded the image with the equal resolution as I got it.

This is the copy of the link of the image... hope it helps!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw2nOtgd7xQgxzxaDVPIipL2&ust=1564084523170196​

Please, do not hesitate to let me know if I can help in anyway.

My best,
Horacio Pardo
[email protected]

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Horatio

I understand the reason why to keep things confidential. I wish you the very best with your project. I can fully agree with you in regards to archival material. Ironic some times the document you need is one missing or misplaced. I have searched for documents all over the world. I have been in the treasure research business for a long time, perhaps too long. I have met saints and sinners and everything in between.

Some times its better to fly under the radar than attracting the media. Otherwise you will get a host of people making claims in which you can spend half of your times in the courts. Even with official permission there will be others in power will do everything in their power to make you fail.

I imagine you have already experienced such things down your way? Anyway as said previous I wish you best of luck with your quest.

Kanacki

 

[HPardo]

Hello Horatio

I understand the reason why to keep things confidential. I wish you the very best with your project. I can fully agree with you in regards to archival material. Ironic some times the document you need is one missing or misplaced. I have searched for documents all over the world. I have been in the treasure research business for a long time, perhaps too long. I have met saints and sinners and everything in between.

Right... It happened to me too! Saints and sinners and all the colorfull among them.​

Some times its better to fly under the radar than attracting the media. Otherwise you will get a host of people making claims in which you can spend half of your times in the courts. Even with official permission there will be others in power will do everything in their power to make you fail.

Exactly! Under the radar, in my opinion, it is the better way. Once you get you share secured, in your pocket, I think that it is the time to publish on media or documentaries. Not before!​

I imagine you have already experienced such things down your way? Anyway as said previous I wish you best of luck with your quest.

Kanacki

Thank you one more time!
I'm doing my best!
It is no easy... if were so... everybody would do it!​

 

[Hal Croves]

Okay,

THE ONLY THING I ASK OF ANYBODY BEFORE POSTING, IS THAT THEY READ THE ENTIRE POST FIRST

(I know it is long, but it contains a lot of referenced information)

Here we go with one of the all-time most contentious subjects in all of the Treasure Hunting World:

Hidden/Lost Jesuit Treasures

Funny thing, as I write this, the movie National Treasure just came on! HAHAHA

Where to start, where to start, where to start? I guess I should start with what might constitute a Jesuit Treasure;

1. Gold and Silver Bars, Coins and the like.

2. Candlesticks, Monstrances, Ciboria, and various other Church Vestments made of precious metals in quantities large or small.

3. A combination of numbers 1 and 2.

4. The exploration of the areas, conversions of the heathens, and aid they rendered to those converted.

First, nobody can argue that number 4 is not absolutely true. Both the spiritual and exploratory work they did from 1608 until their expulsion in 1767 was a wonder for the ages. An example of how a small group of determined people can make such extraordinary advances in the knowledge base of mankind and bringing the light of God into the hearts of so many people in a frightening new world. One has only to read about Padre Kino SJ and his changing of world maps that previous to his explorations showed California as an island. He was the first to contradict that idea. Other testaments lie in all the missions that were manned by the tiniest number of Jesuit Fathers in some of the most hostile territory on Earth. Many of them gave their lives in the most gruesome manners imaginable at the hands of those that fought the changes they wanted to bring.

Next, I would like to talk about number 2. Of all the Jesuit Treasures, this possibility is the most believeable to most people who are of a more skeptical bent. While some diehards do not believe that even these are possible, I give you the words of one of the most DIE HARD of all Jesuit Treasure Skeptics: Father Charles W. Polzer SJ; in the Aug 1962 edition of Desert Magazine, as part of a larger article on preserving the old missions and other historically significant places he writes:



While he does go on to say that no Church records have been found that verify this possibility, he DOES say that it is a possibility. For those of you who know Father Polzer's stance on the subject, it was indeed a revelation to me when I first read it.

We need to know why the Jesuits would want to amass such wonderous vestments in the first place. In some miserable mud hovel in an arid remote hostile desert setting, what would be the great need to have such things? Well, Father Johann (Juan) Nentvig SJ, in his book "Rudo Ensayo" spells it out so that even a person not having any secret Church knowledge can understand:



There you have it! A Jesuit Father himself quoting the very words of the Founder of the Jesuit Order: SAINT Ignatious Loyola! So, now we know WHY the Jesuits would want to accrue such beautiful and costly appointments, but do we have any evidence, other than what Father Polzer SJ calls a "possibility"? You bet your sweet bippy we do! We have the words of some of the Jesuit Fathers themselves. Why don't we start with our old friend, Father Johann Nentvig SJ (again from Rudo Ensayo):



That's pretty good. Anything else? You betcha! Why don't we read the words of Father Joseph Och SJ, in a passage from his journals (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767):



WOW! THAT'S AMAZING! Right from the horse's mouth. Let me here add a couple of points of fact so that the reader can make a more informed decision:

1. Father Nentvig's Journals are beyond reproach. There is no doubt he wrote the words that I have attributed to him.

2. Father Och's Journals are not 100% attributable. We know that he put them all together during his final years while he lived at the Jesuit College at Wurzburg, Bavaria. He passed away in 1773. Thirty-six years after his death in 1809, a book called "Der S.J. in Neumexico. Nachrichten von seinem Reisen nach dem Spanischen Amerika, seinem dortigen Auftenthalte vom Jahr 1755 bis 1767, und Rückkehr nach Europa 1768. Aus dessen eigenhändigen Aufsätzen" was published. These were the collected writings of Father Och SJ. His journals were kept at the Jesuit College in Wurzburg until most of the city was destroyed in an Allied Air Raid in 1945. I have not personally been able to locate them after that. So, while it is remotely possible that some parts of his journals MAY not have been written by Father Och, all one has to do is to read the entire book translated by Theodore E. Treutline to understand that it is HIGHLY unlikely that those were not the actual writings of Father Och SJ. I ONLY included this in the interest of being intellectually honest in what I say (unlike some). A final note about this journal's authenticity: While Lamar may have his doubts (whoever Lamar may be), the two most eminent Jesuit Historians of North America (Father Ernest J Burrus SJ and Father Charles W Polzer SJ have both worked on Theodore Treutline's Translation of "Der Glaubenspredigers ~" and neither of them seem to have any doubt whatsoever that those are the true and correct journals of Father Och SJ, and Theodore Treutline himself one of the most prolific translators of German Jesuit Writings did not doubt their veracity. I guess Lamar holds himself in very high regard. HAHAHA

Now. let us move on to numbers 1 and 3. There are no historical documents stating that the Jesuits possessed ANY stores of gold and/or silver bars, coins, etc. What we have, are a couple of documents that are SUPPOSED to be inventories of treasures that were hidden before the Jesuits were expelled from the New World during the night of 25-26 June 1767. Those who are familiar with histories written by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ, Father Charles W. Polzer SJ, Traditional Historians, and most history books detailing Colonial Spanish times in the New World are right now saying "THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE! King Charles III made certain that his orders to arrest all the Jesuits, march them to the sea, and ship them all back to Europe, were sealed and COMPLETELY secret until the day they were to be arrested! WRONG! Well, not completely wrong. They were supposedly a secret to everybody that received the King's Letters. There are a few little niggling facts that keep getting omitted from most of that history you have read. Surprised? I was!

First, here is a bit from the official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico:



While this in itself is not a smoking gun (so to speak), it does show that it MAY have been possible for the Jesuits to have received some advanced warning from those seculars who had allegiances to the Jesuits.

Here is something a more concrete. It's not a quote or something vague. It is simply an historical fact that keeps being either omitted or ignored by traditional historians:

The Jesuits knew without doubt what was coming! How do we know this? Very simply, the Jesuit Expulsions from all of Spain's Holdings around the world was not the only nor indeed the first of the Jesuit's Expulsions:

1. Due to Jesuit Involvement in Portuguese Rebellions, they were expelled from all of Portugal's lands around the world on 06 July 1758. A full nine years before their Spanish Expulsion!

2. Due to the same intrigues, in November of 1763, the French King dissolved the Jesuit Order in all French Holdings worldwide. Four years before their Spanish Expulsion!

3. Due, again, to more of the same intrigues, Spain and it's colonies (European), and it's principalities (Naples) arrested all the Jesuits during the night of 1-2 April 1767, and in Spain's Holdings worldwide on the night of 25-26 June 1767.

4. After a Papal Threat, the Kingdom of Parma expelled the Jesuits and dissolved their Order in 1768.

So, due to the earlier expulsions from everywhere else in the world (except Russia and Prussia) by the year 1763, there is little doubt that the Jesuit Order knew FAR in advance of 25-26 June 1767 that the very same fate would befall them in Spanish Lands in time. They had YEARS to hide all their great accumulated wealth.

Now, we move on to examine one of those supposed Jesuit Treasure "proofs". It has come to be known as the Molina Document and the associated Molina Map. It was said to be the product of a Sister Michaela Molina. While she was serving at an Archive in Rome, she supposedly came across a document that detailed a HUGE Cache of Jesuit Treasure that was buried near the Tumacacori Mission in the Santa Cruz River Valley. She was said to have hand copied the document and kept it a secret until she moved to the United States. There are a couple of problems with that document:

1. There is no extant record of any Sister Michaela Molina. There is a Molina Family that lives nearby, and their family history says there was a Michaela Molina. Nothing hard though.

2. The document and map were unknown until about 1933 when John D. Mitchell wrote about it. We know from the Stone Maps story that it could have been around, but kept a secret for many years before that, because of the nature of the information contained in the document. It is the contention of the National Park Service and the Jesuit Order that John D. Mitchell either had the document made or was defrauded by someone who knew he was a treasure hunter. The NPS gives many reasons for the document to be labeled a hoax/fraud. The main ones are the orientation of the page and the writing. They seem to miss the part of the story about where Sister Molina HAND COPIES her document from the original.

Here is a link to the TNet Thread on this subject:

Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

That's about all for now, as I am VERY tired of typing.

Best-Mike

Mike,
Do you think that Father Hidalgo ever reached Arizona?

 

[HPardo]

I have to say that your post it is impressive! Awesome! Shows up a fully understanding about the Jesuit's Priest expelled.

I rather a short reference about the "treasure" of the Jesuit's Priests.

As many catholics knows, every kind of religious artificat dedicated to God tries to be the better. We give to God the better to His adoration. No the left over. So, between a chandellier of iron or a silver, a good christian will choose a silver one if he has the enough money to get one. God doesn't look that. He looks the act. Quoting the Gospel:

Luke 2.1
He looked up and saw the rich people who were putting their gifts into the treasury. [2] He saw a certain poor widow casting in two small brass coins. [3] He said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow put in more than all of them, [4] for all these put in gifts for God from their abundance, but she, out of her poverty, put in all that she had to live on.”​

Saying this, we must put aside any other opinion about if this is good or bad. Doesn't matter in this case. I will not get into a discussion about this.

Now... The Jesuit's Priests treasure. Why they accumulated gold and silver? I will give you a simple answer... Does anybody remember read, saw or whatever an antique Bible? Does anybody noted that golden colour is made by gold? That the outer sides of the leaves of the Bible is golden. Are painted with diluted gold. The same as the drawings and other portraits in gold and silver colors. And the liturgical crafts for worship of God in precious metals goes on and on. I mentioned the most popular.

In Argentina, there is an Argentine women historian and researcher who found a detail of the manifesto of what existed in the Argentine Missions. He published it in his book "in Spanish". I contacted her because had correspondence with the treasure goods that I found in the shipwreck files. And thus unite the whole story. He refused to give me information. I have a successful reputation as a treasure hunter and I am rejected by some of the academic community, beyond my excellent officially recognized historical essays and which no academic did. Nobody risk their own money, only the T.Hunters does. We don't live from public taxes to pay for our investigations and operations. We use our own and investors money.

Anyway... the bottom line is that as every kind of religion, as christian, jews, or any other community likewise; prefer gold and silver before iron or lead if they can. In that time (16 to 18 century), silver and gold was abundant in America and the Jesuit's Priests used it.

I can scan the pages of the book if anyone it is interested. It is in castillian. I will not do the translation to avoid any kind of missunderstanding.

Once again, great post! Beatifull! Words of a man that knows what he wrote. My sincerily and humild congratulations. Not every day I find a researcher that knows "facts" and knows how to blend it into the whole history and in the right way.

I'm speechless!
My very best,
Horacio Pardo
[email protected]

 

[gollum]

Hello HPardo,

I have not heard nor read anything about a Father Hidalgo in Pimeria Alta. I will check my files to see if there was such a person in Nueva Vizcaya. There is no doubt the Jesuit Order made it into Arizona. The only argument is how far North did they reach?

On one of Padre Kino's Entradas, he described being at the confluence of the Rio Azul and Rio Verde. He looked Northward from there towards the mountains. So basically, by most historical records, the Jesuits made it as far North as about Phoenix. There are stories of Jesuits burying treasure in the Superstition Mountains:

One of the best stories I have heard regarding Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions is from Ed Piper. Ed came to the Superstition Mountains in 1956 from Kansas after his wife passed away. He had always wanted to come to this place because of a story he was told as a child. When his dad worked at an Indian Reservation, the old chief would bounce little Ed on his knee. When he got older, the chief told Ed that if he ever wanted to find a treasure, he should go to the Superstition Mountains in Arizona. There, he should look near a large needle peak (Weaver's Needle). There was a cave in the peak that contained a treasure that was buried by the Black Robes (Jesuits) that the Indians guarded. He set up his camp at the base of Weavers Needle and lived there (except on month out of the year which is another story) until he died of cancer in 1962. He never found the treasure cave. One time someone asked him how long he had been a Dutch Hunter (searcher for the Lost Dutchman Mine)? He answered by saying that he had been in those mountains for many years, but he never spent five minutes looking for the Lost Dutchman. He was looking for a Jesuit Treasure an old Indian Chief told him about.

Ed Piper is all the way to the right.



Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello HPardo,

I have not heard nor read anything about a Father Hidalgo in Pimeria Alta. I will check my files to see if there was such a person in Nueva Vizcaya. There is no doubt the Jesuit Order made it into Arizona. The only argument is how far North did they reach?

On one of Padre Kino's Entradas, he described being at the confluence of the Rio Azul and Rio Verde. He looked Northward from there towards the mountains. So basically, by most historical records, the Jesuits made it as far North as about Phoenix. There are stories of Jesuits burying treasure in the Superstition Mountains:

One of the best stories I have heard regarding Jesuit Treasure in the Superstitions is from Ed Piper. Ed came to the Superstition Mountains in 1956 from Kansas after his wife passed away. He had always wanted to come to this place because of a story he was told as a child. When his dad worked at an Indian Reservation, the old chief would bounce little Ed on his knee. When he got older, the chief told Ed that if he ever wanted to find a treasure, he should go to the Superstition Mountains in Arizona. There, he should look near a large needle peak (Weaver's Needle). There was a cave in the peak that contained a treasure that was buried by the Black Robes (Jesuits) that the Indians guarded. He set up his camp at the base of Weavers Needle and lived there (except on month out of the year which is another story) until he died of cancer in 1962. He never found the treasure cave. One time someone asked him how long he had been a Dutch Hunter (searcher for the Lost Dutchman Mine)? He answered by saying that he had been in those mountains for many years, but he never spent five minutes looking for the Lost Dutchman. He was looking for a Jesuit Treasure an old Indian Chief told him about.

Ed Piper is all the way to the right.

View attachment 1750477

Mike

The Wykoff letter puts Father Hildalgo in the Superstitions sometime before 1811, before his capture and execution. If you find anything to support the idea, please let us know.

Thanks Mike.

 

[gollum]

The Wykoff letter puts Father Hildalgo in the Superstitions sometime before 1811, before his capture and execution. If you find anything to support the idea, please let us know.

Thanks Mike.

Hal,

I'll look into it, but this sounds like another case of when knowing history helps! If the Hidalgo you are talking about is the famous Father Hidalgo from Mission Dolores, then he was definitely NOT a Jesuit. Everything I have read about Father Hidalgo says that he was a Secular Priest. Also, the Jesuits were officially disbanded worldwide in 1773. There was officially no such thing as a Jesuit from 25 June 1767 until the restoration of the Order in 1814 (both by Papal Decree).

Where can I find more info on the "Wykoff Letter"?

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I'll look into it, but this sounds like another case of when knowing history helps! If the Hidalgo you are talking about is the famous Father Hidalgo from Mission Dolores, then he was definitely NOT a Jesuit. Everything I have read about Father Hidalgo says that he was a Secular Priest. Also, the Jesuits were officially disbanded worldwide in 1773. There was officially no such thing as a Jesuit from 25 June 1767 until the restoration of the Order in 1814 (both by Papal Decree).

Where can I find more info on the "Wykoff Letter"?

Mike

Yes, being familiar with the topic is why I turned to you. Just keep in mind that in 1773, Hidalgo graduated from the former San Nicolás College (today’s Michoacán University of San Nicolás de Hidalgo), initially a Jesuit secondary school.

The Wykoff letter is available for purchase at the Denver Public Library. Someone with your understanding of history would find it, curious.

 

[gollum]

Okay. Now that I have read the Wykoff Letter, I can speak more intelligently on the subject.

Since I believe two separate people/stories are involved here, when I am referring to the Hidalgo Gold, I will use "WALZ". When I am referring to the Lost Dutchman Mine, I will use the actual name of the finder "WALTZ".

Either Wykoff (if he is telling the truth), or his friend Major Murphy are getting two different stories mixed up. The Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman Mine was born in Germany in 1810. The letter states that Walz and Murphy found the mine in 1883. I think 73 years of age is a bit old for a Cavalry Scout. We also know that Jacob Waltz found his gold mine sometime in the late 1860s. Jacob Waltz died in Phoenix on 25 October 1891.

Now, I haven't heard about the Hidalgo Story before. It is entirely possible that treasure exists. There is NO Mormon Mesa Dam. There is a dam at Mormon Flat, and another one at Horse Mesa. From the description, it sounds like he means Mormon Flat Dam. I am looking over the 1905 Roosevelt Quadrangle TOPO Map (no dams built yet). There shows no Skeleton/Peralta Canyon in the area South of Canyon Lake. The letter says it is in a "water filled canyon SOUTH of the Salt River". The ONLY canyon SOUTH of the Salt that got water is LaBarge. Geronimo Head MAY be related to the stated Geronimo Waterfall. I will do a little more looking into the subject and see what I can find.

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Okay. Now that I have read the Wykoff Letter, I can speak more intelligently on the subject.

Since I believe two separate people/stories are involved here, when I am referring to the Hidalgo Gold, I will use "WALZ". When I am referring to the Lost Dutchman Mine, I will use the actual name of the finder "WALTZ".

Either Wykoff (if he is telling the truth), or his friend Major Murphy are getting two different stories mixed up. The Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman Mine was born in Germany in 1810. The letter states that Walz and Murphy found the mine in 1883. I think 73 years of age is a bit old for a Cavalry Scout. We also know that Jacob Waltz found his gold mine sometime in the late 1860s. Jacob Waltz died in Phoenix on 25 October 1891.

Now, I haven't heard about the Hidalgo Story before. It is entirely possible that treasure exists. There is NO Mormon Mesa Dam. There is a dam at Mormon Flat, and another one at Horse Mesa. From the description, it sounds like he means Mormon Flat Dam. I am looking over the 1905 Roosevelt Quadrangle TOPO Map (no dams built yet). There shows no Skeleton/Peralta Canyon in the area South of Canyon Lake. The letter says it is in a "water filled canyon SOUTH of the Salt River". The ONLY canyon SOUTH of the Salt that got water is LaBarge. Geronimo Head MAY be related to the stated Geronimo Waterfall. I will do a little more looking into the subject and see what I can find.

Mike

Yes, I think that Wykoff has mixed histories, Murphy and Walz, and Jacob Waltz. All I can say at this moment is that the Murphy character is real and that there were several men named Jacob Walz that served. I doubt Wykoff is describing the Lost Dutchman location but that doesn’t mean the Hidalgo story is BS. But, it could be.

The key is identifying the correct Sgt. Walz.

 

[Hal Croves]

Okay. Now that I have read the Wykoff Letter, I can speak more intelligently on the subject.

Since I believe two separate people/stories are involved here, when I am referring to the Hidalgo Gold, I will use "WALZ". When I am referring to the Lost Dutchman Mine, I will use the actual name of the finder "WALTZ".

Either Wykoff (if he is telling the truth), or his friend Major Murphy are getting two different stories mixed up. The Jacob Waltz of the Lost Dutchman Mine was born in Germany in 1810. The letter states that Walz and Murphy found the mine in 1883. I think 73 years of age is a bit old for a Cavalry Scout. We also know that Jacob Waltz found his gold mine sometime in the late 1860s. Jacob Waltz died in Phoenix on 25 October 1891.

Now, I haven't heard about the Hidalgo Story before. It is entirely possible that treasure exists. There is NO Mormon Mesa Dam. There is a dam at Mormon Flat, and another one at Horse Mesa. From the description, it sounds like he means Mormon Flat Dam. I am looking over the 1905 Roosevelt Quadrangle TOPO Map (no dams built yet). There shows no Skeleton/Peralta Canyon in the area South of Canyon Lake. The letter says it is in a "water filled canyon SOUTH of the Salt River". The ONLY canyon SOUTH of the Salt that got water is LaBarge. Geronimo Head MAY be related to the stated Geronimo Waterfall. I will do a little more looking into the subject and see what I can find.

Mike

“in what is now a water filled canyon” meaning that it is now, that part of the canyon, submerged.
Three possible locations however the green arrow points to a rapid change in elevation, needed for a waterfall.

I apologize for the poor resolution.