JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Ditlihi]

Anyone really serious in searching for lost Spanish mines settlements and activities of various Church orders. Estanias, ecomindas should well be advised to search through the following very rare book. Compendio y Descripcion de las Indias Occidentales

In the English translated version it is called Description of the Indies. 1620 by Antonio Vazquez Espinosa. There is only one original copy in existence. That is in Vatican Archives, There are few English translated copies dated I think in 1920s and later edition reprinted in 1942. The library of congress has I believe has a 1942 copy.

A 1942 copy came up in few years ago for sale and sold for 16000 dollars. The original copy in Vatican is priceless.

View attachment 1720570

Antonio Vazquez Espinosa was a Carmelites priest commissioned by the king of Spain to explore all the mining settlement Ecomindas, Estancia's towns and cities in the Spanish Territories of the new world. He took 22 years of traveling the new world to compile his book.

The very rare book in original Spanish having one in assistance. It is impossible to get permission to photograph it. You can only view in a special temperature controlled room. Before that you got get special permission and provide qualifications to Even see it. A rear treasure in itself to see it.

Another books of his Circunstancias para los tratos y contratos de las Indias del Perú y Nueva España (Málaga, 1624) in English Circumstances for the deals and contracts of the Indies of Peru and New Spain (Malaga, 1624)

Is a very interesting book also.

Kanacki

Excellent post, Kanacki, and very valuable Reference for those seeking this information. I only wanted to add that while nothing is more accurate or valuable as the original, the English version of Espinosa's Description of the Indies c.1620 , translated and published in 1942 by Charles Upson Clark, is available online at archive.org at the following url. It is downloadable for free in several formats.


https://archive.org/stream/smithsonianmisce1021942smit/smithsonianmisce1021942smit_djvu.txt

 

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[Al D]

Anyone really serious in searching for lost Spanish mines settlements and activities of various Church orders. Estanias, ecomindas should well be advised to search through the following very rare book. Compendio y Descripcion de las Indias Occidentales

In the English translated version it is called Description of the Indies. 1620 by Antonio Vazquez Espinosa. There is only one original copy in existence. That is in Vatican Archives, There are few English translated copies dated I think in 1920s and later edition reprinted in 1942. The library of congress has I believe has a 1942 copy.

A 1942 copy came up in few years ago for sale and sold for 16000 dollars. The original copy in Vatican is priceless.

View attachment 1720570

Antonio Vazquez Espinosa was a Carmelites priest commissioned by the king of Spain to explore all the mining settlement Ecomindas, Estancia's towns and cities in the Spanish Territories of the new world. He took 22 years of traveling the new world to compile his book.

The very rare book in original Spanish having one in assistance. It is impossible to get permission to photograph it. You can only view in a special temperature controlled room. Before that you got get special permission and provide qualifications to Even see it. A rear treasure in itself to see it.

Another books of his Circunstancias para los tratos y contratos de las Indias del Perú y Nueva España (Málaga, 1624) in English Circumstances for the deals and contracts of the Indies of Peru and New Spain (Malaga, 1624)

Is a very interesting book also.

Kanacki

Yes indeed, one of the best books on the subject, it is a main component of my library

 

[sdcfia]

Anyone really serious in searching for lost Spanish mines settlements and activities of various Church orders. Estanias, ecomindas should well be advised to search through the following very rare book. Compendio y Descripcion de las Indias Occidentales

In the English translated version it is called Description of the Indies. 1620 by Antonio Vazquez Espinosa. There is only one original copy in existence. That is in Vatican Archives, There are few English translated copies dated I think in 1920s and later edition reprinted in 1942. The library of congress has I believe has a 1942 copy.

A 1942 copy came up in few years ago for sale and sold for 16000 dollars. The original copy in Vatican is priceless.

View attachment 1720570

Antonio Vazquez Espinosa was a Carmelites priest commissioned by the king of Spain to explore all the mining settlement Ecomindas, Estancia's towns and cities in the Spanish Territories of the new world. He took 22 years of traveling the new world to compile his book.

The very rare book in original Spanish having one in assistance. It is impossible to get permission to photograph it. You can only view in a special temperature controlled room. Before that you got get special permission and provide qualifications to Even see it. A rear treasure in itself to see it.

Another books of his Circunstancias para los tratos y contratos de las Indias del Perú y Nueva España (Málaga, 1624) in English Circumstances for the deals and contracts of the Indies of Peru and New Spain (Malaga, 1624)

Is a very interesting book also.

Kanacki

English translation $29 at AbeBooks. https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?...le=description%20of%20the%20indies%20c%201620

 

[KANACKI]

Hello All

Excellent posts.

Being an old dinosaur from pre internet days. Hunting down these books or even knowing these books existed was an enormous task. While I confess its easy to look back on previous researchers and mock for some of the obvious erroneous conclusions they came to. But they never had the luxury what we have today.

The ability access university libraries, national libraries and archives are unparalleled in history of research. And now books, journals like the ones mentioned above becoming online free and re printed again translations. Its absolutely awesome. Many of legends posted on this site can either be debunked or confirmed or more accurate information can be obtained to get closer to the truth. Although there will always be an element of assumption based on unknowns. And some documents still have to be manually searched visiting institutions personally. And boots on the ground is vital also. To day we have the greatest treasure hunting research tool at our disposal. And I am amazed even now. The kids of today it is the norm. I have to pinch myself living on beautiful island in the middle of the pacific. Yet I can look through archives and libraries around the world searching for original documents from the luxury of sitting around the pool.

Yet when people ask saying they cannot find information about a particular legend? Either they are Lazy and what some to spoon fed them info. Or they just do not comprehend the powerful tool they are staring into?

Every day I come across amazing pieces of information. And even more amazing people who contribute such information.

Cheers Kanacki

 

[Oroblanco]

Excellent post, Kanacki, and very valuable Reference for those seeking this information. I only wanted to add that while nothing is more accurate or valuable as the original, the English version of Espinosa's Description of the Indies c.1620 , translated and published in 1942 by Charles Upson Clark, is available online at archive.org at the following url. It is downloadable for free in several formats.


https://archive.org/stream/smithsonianmisce1021942smit/smithsonianmisce1021942smit_djvu.txt

Thanks for the link, I didn't have that!

 

[Ditlihi]

Thanks for the link, I didn't have that!

You're very welcome.

 

[gollum]

............and don't forget to download a copy of Sergeant Bernal Diaz del Castillo's "A True History of the Conquest of New Spain". Castillo was one of Cortez' Sergeants for the entire trip from Cuba to Tenochtitlan. His description of the final assault would make a fantastic movie. Not politically correct nowdays, but WOW!

https://archive.org/details/tesisnoqueprese00garcgoog/page/n8

Mike

 

[Ditlihi]

............and don't forget to download a copy of Sergeant Bernal Diaz del Castillo's "A True History of the Conquest of New Spain". Castillo was one of Cortez' Sergeants for the entire trip from Cuba to Tenochtitlan. His description of the final assault would make a fantastic movie. Not politically correct nowdays, but WOW!

https://archive.org/details/tesisnoqueprese00garcgoog/page/n8

Mike

Thanks, Big Guy

 

[gollum]

.....any time. I've got a million of'em!

Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Thanks Mike, that is some interesting reading. May God be with you.
Bob

 

[HPardo]

Jesuit Treasure sunked in Rio de la Plata, Uruguay



"(...) Record 256. From His Excellency Governor Francisco de Bucareli and his Governor and Captain General of this city and province, and of his order and by the hands of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Joseph de Altolaguirre and Mr. Juan de Arce, Treasurer and Accountant of the Temporalities occupied to the Regulars of the Company, and at their own risk, three thousand six hundred and seventy-five marks, four ounces, fourteen dribblets of carved silver, and three marks, four ounces, four golden dribblet, all of it taken care of within those with the margin mark and a wooden frame in the form of a niche with their corresponding moldings or pillars with some silver work (attached to the main quantity) in loose pieces to hand them all to the disposition of His Excellency Conde de Aranda (...)"

"(...) Don Salvador Moreno and the Court, sailing master of the ship named Nuestra Sra. de la Concepcion and San Nicolás de Bari (alias La Felicidad) owned by Messrs. Uztaris Hnos. Y Cía. from the city of Cádiz, before your lordships and your favors as best I can, I look and say (without prejudice to any other action or right that corresponds to me) that on the afternoon of the eleventh day of this month of April I sailed the beacons of the port of Buenos Aires, in the own boat of Don Manuel Joseph de Borda, governed by the patron Bernardo Rodríguez, with the registry of silver and gold, in amount of six hundred and twenty-three thousand two hundred and eleven pesos five and three real quarters of silver minted, seventeen one thousand eight hundred and twenty-three gold pesos, all in two hundred and eighty-eight bags; sixty-four sacks of vicuña wool and others that consisted on books; sailing with the destination of this port of Montevideo to transfer his cargo to the mentioned ship, and having arrived on the thirteenth day of the same month, he touched the aforementioned boat on a bass (…exact location) where it was lost, (... exact location) with whose help I could save my person, other passengers and the crew of the aforementioned boat, and with efforts and imminent danger the sheets of the Royal Service of His Majesty and the public, with more a crates labeled to the King Our Lord by the hand of the Secretary Universal of the Indies that says to be currencies with weight of twenty-four marks and six ounces; two maps labeled for His Majesty and likewise one hundred and twenty-five bags of two thousand pesos each, and another small one with eight thousand and one hundred and sixty pesos in gold (...) but checked the amount of pouches saved with the total that consists on the Registry, It is missing the sum of one hundred and sixty-two pouches, (...)"


Is there a Jesuit Treasure? Here is the answer... And with original documents of 18th century... I have to confess that I didn't read the whole thread... I just kept with the title... And well... As I wrote, here is the answer...

Hope that the attached image goes fine. It is my first post...
My best wishes,
Horacio Pardo
Animas Project
Uruguay

 

[gollum]

View attachment 1728021

"(...) Record 256. From His Excellency Governor Francisco de Bucareli and his Governor and Captain General of this city and province, and of his order and by the hands of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Joseph de Altolaguirre and Mr. Juan de Arce, Treasurer and Accountant of the Temporalities occupied to the Regulars of the Company, and at their own risk, three thousand six hundred and seventy-five marks, four ounces, fourteen dribblets of carved silver, and three marks, four ounces, four golden dribblet, all of it taken care of within those with the margin mark and a wooden frame in the form of a niche with their corresponding moldings or pillars with some silver work (attached to the main quantity) in loose pieces to hand them all to the disposition of His Excellency Conde de Aranda (...)"

"(...) Don Salvador Moreno and the Court, sailing master of the ship named Nuestra Sra. de la Concepcion and San Nicolás de Bari (alias La Felicidad) owned by Messrs. Uztaris Hnos. Y Cía. from the city of Cádiz, before your lordships and your favors as best I can, I look and say (without prejudice to any other action or right that corresponds to me) that on the afternoon of the eleventh day of this month of April I sailed the beacons of the port of Buenos Aires, in the own boat of Don Manuel Joseph de Borda, governed by the patron Bernardo Rodríguez, with the registry of silver and gold, in amount of six hundred and twenty-three thousand two hundred and eleven pesos five and three real quarters of silver minted, seventeen one thousand eight hundred and twenty-three gold pesos, all in two hundred and eighty-eight bags; sixty-four sacks of vicuña wool and others that consisted on books; sailing with the destination of this port of Montevideo to transfer his cargo to the mentioned ship, and having arrived on the thirteenth day of the same month, he touched the aforementioned boat on a bass (…exact location) where it was lost, (... exact location) with whose help I could save my person, other passengers and the crew of the aforementioned boat, and with efforts and imminent danger the sheets of the Royal Service of His Majesty and the public, with more a crates labeled to the King Our Lord by the hand of the Secretary Universal of the Indies that says to be currencies with weight of twenty-four marks and six ounces; two maps labeled for His Majesty and likewise one hundred and twenty-five bags of two thousand pesos each, and another small one with eight thousand and one hundred and sixty pesos in gold (...) but checked the amount of pouches saved with the total that consists on the Registry, It is missing the sum of one hundred and sixty-two pouches, (...)"


Is there a Jesuit Treasure? Here is the answer... And with original documents of 18th century... I have to confess that I didn't read the whole thread... I just kept with the title... And well... As I wrote, here is the answer...

Hope that the attached image goes fine. It is my first post...
My best wishes,
Horacio Pardo
Animas Project
Uruguay

If this is supposed to be a letter from a Jesuit detailing a treasure, you have a very large problem. The date on this letter is APRIL 11th, 1770. In 1770, there were no Jesuits in the New World outside of Maryland. The Jesuit Order was suppressed from all Portuguese Lands Worldwide in 1759. The Jesuit Order was suppressed from all Spanish Lands Worldwide in 1767.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

If this is supposed to be a letter from a Jesuit detailing a treasure, you have a very large problem. The date on this letter is APRIL 11th, 1770. In 1770, there were no Jesuits in the New World outside of Maryland. The Jesuit Order was suppressed from all Portuguese Lands Worldwide in 1759. The Jesuit Order was suppressed from all Spanish Lands Worldwide in 1767.

Mike

Could this have been an attempt to retrieve a Jesuit treasure, after expulsion?

 

[gollum]

Could this have been an attempt to retrieve a Jesuit treasure, after expulsion?

I didn't read past the date on the top of the document, and the posters question "Is there a Jesuit Treasure?". I just read through the entire document and read the Spanish Version of it as well. It has nothing to do with the Jesuit Order. It simply is a description of the contents of a ship that hit rocks and sank with much of the treasure on it near Montivideo. While it might be a treasure unfound, it has ZERO to do with Jesuits.

Mike

 

[KANACKI]

Horacio Pardo

Thank you for your interesting post.

It appears you have posted interpretation for 2 separate pages. The original document you posted was of the shipwreck as Gollum kindly pointed. out.

I would love to see the original document in regards to ....statement below.

"(...) Record 256. From His Excellency Governor Francisco de Bucareli and his Governor and Captain General of this city and province, and of his order and by the hands of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Joseph de Altolaguirre and Mr. Juan de Arce, Treasurer and Accountant of the Temporalities occupied to the Regulars of the Company, and at their own risk, three thousand six hundred and seventy-five marks, four ounces, fourteen dribblets of carved silver, and three marks, four ounces, four golden dribblet, all of it taken care of within those with the margin mark and a wooden frame in the form of a niche with their corresponding moldings or pillars with some silver work (attached to the main quantity) in loose pieces to hand them all to the disposition of His Excellency Conde de Aranda (...)"

For me just to see the original document in its context will give me a better understanding.

The record 256 is bundled as most likely as correspondences and the shipwreck document may not be even connected with Record 256?

However.....

There are 2 names are of interested from record 256?

Governor Francisco de Bucareli

Bucareli y Ursúa, Francisco de Paula (?–1770)

Francisco de Paula Bucareli y Ursúa (d.*after 1770), governor of*Buenos Aires*(1766–1770), brother of Antonio María Bucareli, viceroy of*New Spain. Bucareli, probably born in Seville, Spain, was a career army officer imbued with the ideas of the Spanish version of the Enlightenment. In 1776 he assumed the post of governor of*Buenos Aires, where he immediately became involved in expelling the Portuguese from*Rio Grande*do Sul in May of 1767. In the same year he directed the expulsion of 345 Jesuits from the twelve colleges, residences, and missions of the Río de la Plata. As a result, over fifty estates with thousands of head of cattle, slaves, and real estate were auctioned and sold. In 1770 Bucareli ousted English settlers from Port Egmond in the*Falkland Islands, reclaiming the islands for Spain. Soon afterward he returned to Spain, where he died.

Second interesting person is Conde de Aranda

Pedro Pablo Abarca de Bolea y Jiménez de Urrea, 10th Count of Aranda,*GE,*KOGF(1718 in*Siétamo,*Huesca*– 1798 in*…pila,*Saragossa), was a Spanish*statesman*and*diplomat. As he enjoyed the personal confidence of the king, his power was similar to a*prime minister's. He promoted many*enlightened reforms*and he supported the expulsion of the*Jesuits*in 1767



Now in regards to Record 256.

Temporalities that was commissioned to liquidate the Jesuits assets after the 1767 expulsion so the date 1770 is not out of the ordinary when it comes to accountants :-) Interesting is figure given considering 12 colleges was liquidated?

three thousand six hundred and seventy-five marks, four ounces, fourteen dribblets of carved silver, and three marks, four ounces, four golden dribblet, all of it taken care of within those with the margin mark and a wooden frame in the form of a niche with their corresponding moldings or pillars with some silver work?

While some would argue that it is Jesuit treasure no less? In fact they are correct? However it was treasure never hidden by the Jesuits. It was Jesuits assets liquidated by the Temporalities.

However it is an amazing insight into the events of that time period. And I would dearly love seeing the original 256 record document.

Cheers Kanacki

 

[gollum]

Hey Kanacki,

Did you read the actual document. Either the translator left a LOT out, or they translated the numbers all wrong. Go to the name "Bernardo Rodriguez", then look at the first count: "Dos ciento ochenta y quatro zurrones de a dos mil pesos cada uno". That translates to "284 bags of 2000 pesos each". In the translation, the number translated is "623,211 pesos". The math doesn't add up. Even if you do the math from my translation, it adds up to 568,000 pesos (284x2000).

or maybe they just added up everything on the page. Too much for me right now. At least its Cortesana and not Chainscript LOL.

Mike

 

[KANACKI]

Hey Kanacki,

Did you read the actual document. Either the translator left a LOT out, or they translated the numbers all wrong. Go to the name "Bernardo Rodriguez", then look at the first count: "Dos ciento ochenta y quatro zurrones de a dos mil pesos cada uno". That translates to "284 bags of 2000 pesos each". In the translation, the number translated is "623,211 pesos". The math doesn't add up. Even if you do the math from my translation, it adds up to 568,000 pesos (284x2000).

or maybe they just added up everything on the page. Too much for me right now. At least its Cortesana and not Chainscript LOL.

Mike

I agree with the math. The first time reading it I used a calculator and could not come up with the figure. I suspect there is more than one page. Without a picture of the Original full correspondence, we are hamstrung in seeing how they came up with that figure. Its one of the dangers of cherry picking statements from such documents as things can be taken out of context.

Kanacki

 

[deducer]

............and don't forget to download a copy of Sergeant Bernal Diaz del Castillo's "A True History of the Conquest of New Spain". Castillo was one of Cortez' Sergeants for the entire trip from Cuba to Tenochtitlan. His description of the final assault would make a fantastic movie. Not politically correct nowdays, but WOW!

https://archive.org/details/tesisnoqueprese00garcgoog/page/n8

Mike

The book literally doesn't start until page 93. GEEEEEEEEE-EEEEZUS!

 

[HPardo]

Jesuits expulsion and their treasures.

If this is supposed to be a letter from a Jesuit detailing a treasure, you have a very large problem. The date on this letter is APRIL 11th, 1770. In 1770, there were no Jesuits in the New World outside of Maryland. The Jesuit Order was suppressed from all Portuguese Lands Worldwide in 1759. The Jesuit Order was suppressed from all Spanish Lands Worldwide in 1767.

Mike

Hey! I'm not in a problem.
It is a matter to understand the chronology of the facts and where it was..



I didn't see your answer before. I'm new on this forum and not everyday I check out if there was any comments. Neither don't know how to get notice if there was a reply or comment to my private email. My apologies for the delay to answer.

RIGHT!!! It is not a letter from a Jesuit detailing their treasure. It is part of an original document date in 1770, as you well said. It talks about that all the goods belonging to the Jesuits in "South America", on "The Missions" (today part of Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay) were ready to be sent to Spain.

As you well said too, it happens after the expulsion of all Jesuits from Europe and America. Specially in South America where the process of expulsion involved the selling of all their goods. It took longer than the expulsion.

Here is the cronology according to my research based on original documents dated 18th century at the National Archives of Argentina and Uruguay.

• In 1759 the Marquis of Pombal expelled one thousand hundred Jesuits from Portugal. Almost a hundred of them died forgotten in jail and - according to the reports - five Jesuits were dismembered.

• In 1762 the Duke of Choiseul, Prime Minister of Louis XV, expelled four thousand Jesuit Priest of France.

• In 1767, the intervention of the Count of Aranda promoted the King of Spain to give the order to expel the Jesuits of their kingdoms in Spain and America.

• In 1768 - almost simultaneously with Spain - the Bourbon kingdoms of Naples, Sicily and Parma; Following the policy ordered by the Count of Aranda, also expelled all the Jesuits from their kingdoms.

On December 17, 1767, the Minister of Grace and Justice, Manuel de Roda, wrote to the Duke of Choiseul of France: "We have killed the son, we have nothing more to do with our mother, Our Holy Roman Church."

In this way the surviving Jesuits expelled and persecuted in the "world" of that time, barely managed to find refuge in the Vatican; saving their lives but leaving behind all their precious legacy of works, studies and businesses (especially these) finally were caught by their persecutors.

Entering the issue of expulsion in relation to Spain and the shipwrecks in the River Plate, it is noteworthy that only in the last third of the year 1767; some seven thousand Jesuit Priest were expelled and persecuted. All those who were in "Las Misiones" in America were driven from their lands in a matter of a few months.

Year 1768. His Catholic Majesty gives the order to expel all Jesuits from the Kingdom of Spain. All their goods and belongings were to be confiscated, sold and remitted to the coffers of the crown. In the Rio de la Plata area, the so-called "temporalidades " (dominant political figures), were in charge of executing the real order.

By 1770 all goods, religious objects and Jesuit values located in the River Plate area where at the Port of Buenos Aires stored and later sold.

Luckily for me, the ship that carried the cargo from Buenos Aires port to Montevideo port, to take the cargo from there to Spain, sunk. Part of the cargo was rescue, but not all of it.

I will glady answer any other doubt you may have if you can forgive my English. It is not my native language and I know that I'm not very good on english spoken or wrote.

My best wishes,
Horacio Pardo


(1992 during the salvage of "La Luz", sunk in 1752, Montevideo; Uruguay)


(with Mel Fisher in Uruguay)

 

[HPardo]

Could this have been an attempt to retrieve a Jesuit treasure, after expulsion?

Yes! You are right!