JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[markmar]

Also Amy ( Corporate Investigations ) wrote in one thread:

" Gregoria Antonia de las Bravo had a brother Fr Pedro Antonio Bravo Born 1746 Jesuit Priest of upper Peru. Expelled to Peninsula ( Spain ) in 1767. "

Has anyone any doubt Amy would write " Fr " if was not well informed? I don't think so.

Quote from http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/i...pensamiento-including-ruminahuis-stash-7.html post #97.

 

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[Oroblanco]

You do know that Fray (Fra) refers to a Franciscan? The entire legend revolves around Jesuit Priests, but Jesuits HAVE NEVER used the descriptor Fray.

Mike

I must respectfully disagree here. The Jesuit Relations from French Canada have numerous examples of Jesuits referring to each other as Fray and signing as Fray ___ (name). It may be less common use elsewhere, but they absolutely did use that title for themselves.

 

[KANACKI]

Greetings all

my apologies in advance as Sadly I have to agree with Gollum as clearly he has seen the documents that Wiley old beach bum of a Crow had found.

Just a reply to Lovely Amy's post in which she never got around to posting confirmation she was seeking.

Marius

If you take a quote below of Amys... Please understand that was only a preliminary conclusion based on information given to her by Genealogist researcher of San Roman family at the time.

In her full comments she quotes below....

Gregoria Antonia de las Bravo had a brother Fr Pedro Antonio Bravo Born 1746 Jesuit Priest of upper Peru. Expelled to Peninsula ( Spain ) in 1767.

So in effect the documents and information came from Gregoria Antonia de las Bravo's brother a Jesuit Fr Pedro Antonio Bravo the great uncle of Miguel San Roman Meza president of Peru was the source of the information?

As for Corina San Roman Caballo it is possible she was a distant family connection? Its possible a second great cousin from Miguel San Roman Meza president of Peru. However in fairness that connection need to be clarified....

There is a few reference books I am awaiting.

Well sadly she was never able to get back us as she had other things to do. The two reference books as far as I am aware there is no one exactly by that name in either book. One list the names of Jesuits in Paraguay diocese and the other book in Diocese of Peru. In the Peruvian 1767 list of priests the was a Antonio Bravo. This was the name the Genealogist researcher "assumed" this Jesuit priests of 1767 was Pedro Antonio Bravo? However there is just not enough evidence to make conclusion either way that he is linked to the San Roman family or Sacambaya story.

Prodgers and Sanders later version of directions was very poor copies of what actually was said. Everything Edgar Sander said was BS because for him it was means to an end. Only the faint hope some of it was true.

As for "original" Spanish version of Sacambaya story Corina San Roman you have find it in convent library where Corina San Roman went to school. In a town called Tarata in Bolivia. Gives the names of the Jesuit priests. As mentioned by Gollum.

Fact of matter is not one of the seven existed? Fact two it says they was sent to Rome and hanged? Fact no Jesuits was executed in Rome during that time.

Thirdly the whole story was invented in the 1870's out of spite. A story of lost Jesuit treasure weaved around a real abandoned mining village called Plazula and mining district known collectively as mines des Santiago. While it was true the Jesuits Ouro were left two ranches near the mining settlement there was never any monastery at Plazula

Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia (13 April 1820 – 23 November 1871) was the 18th President of Bolivia, from December 28, 1864, to January 15, 1871.

Having installed himself in the Government Palace, Melgarejo proceeded to rule with more incompetence than any Bolivian leader in his time. He ruthlessly suppressed the opposition and assaulted the traditional rights of the country's indigenous population. Melgarejo worked on behalf of a new mining elite in Bolivia, during a period of resurgent silver production and investment from Chile, Peru, North America, England and European capitalists . His story is among the most tragic in the history of Bolivia, both for his repression and his foolish give-away of lands and concessions to Chile.

Melgarejo was president but totally illiterate and ignorant but ruled by the gun. Hated by the people because he was so vain and arrogant he got his favorite horse stamp a hoof print on the map of Bolivia. Any parts of Bolivia outside of hoof print he gave away the land to surrounding countries.

Melgarejo when in power recruited people from the village of Tarata. Because he had grown up in that village he gave villagers important jobs running Bolivia regardless if they knew anything or not. It was a crazy time. Whenever some one questions his stupidity they was executed. He was so stupid when he heard that Paris in Europe was being invaded? He ordered his army to march to Paris. Melgarejo did not know the Atlantic ocean stood in the way.

It was an insane time in Bolivia when Malgarejo ruled. By 1870, one of the smarter inhabitants of Tarata by the last name of Saavedra. In fact Saavedra had known Melgarao from childhood claimed he had found some treasure at Plazula and he sold the " Document deterro of the Jesuits " To Melgarao who had one weakness an insatiable greed for money and gold. Saavedra and family took off with an ungodly sum of money to Santa Cruz in eastern Bolivia.

Melgarejo was so dumb he did not see the ironic joke "Caballo Cuno" means horse's vagina. Fitting is it not? for a president who sold off large parts of Bolivia because it was outside his favorite horse's hoof print, is now so cash strapped he is looking treasure in a Horses " C-nt"

The document eventually after Maelgarejo failed and in 1871 he was ousted in January 1871 and eventually murdered in Peru in November 1871. The document ended up in the Convent at Tarata where Corina San Roman while growing up there found the document when a young girl. She told the story that it came via her family link to the ex presentment of Peru San Roman. She never knew the real story because she was not born when these events happened. Thus a legend was born.....

Kanacki

 

[markmar]

It's Ok Kanacki.

BTW, Prodgers wrote how Ampuera said about Caballo Cunco and not Cuno. As I wrote, the Cuncos were natives of Chile before the Spaniards set foot in the New World. And the Cuncos region was exactly where the treasure legend was born...

There is something written in those two descriptions of the treasure site which only if someone is versed in such type of writing, could understand if there is a pile of gold or a pile of BS. There are codes which pinpoint and describe specific landmarks and spots.

I didn't quote Amy for her research but only for the " Fr " she was used before the Jesuit priest name.

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Marius

First I love all these treasure story however it is all too easy to become obsessed on a story.

Prodgers for his book gave Cunco as an cleaned up non vulgar interpretation of the name Ampuera gave. Ampuera A full blooded Indian the slang nick name was "Caballo Cuno" It was localized joke that Prodgers never understood. While is is true Cunco is tribe of Indians on the island in Chile. They had no connection to Sacambaya.

Juan Bautista Saavedra living in Cochabumba would later in 1870s had 3 children by his first wife then later married second time* presumably after the death of his first wife moved to Santa Cruz. They was a wealthy and influential family because his grandson Juan Bautista Saavedra*Mallea in 1921 became the president of Bolivia. Juan Bautista Saavedra convinced Melgarejo to sponsor searches around 1866-1867? The Saavedra family have a long history living in the area going back to the Jesuit expulsion. Manuela Saaverdra Terrazas. "Terrazas is her second husbands name. she was born in 1768 and she died in 1816. Juan was born in 1806. They lived in place called Tarata, and Esteban Arce, Cochabamba province. you can find Arce on an old map and its not far from Sacambaya. So for Saavedra it was easy to concoct an accurate description of land marks because he has to pass though by many times through Sacambaya and the ruins of Plazula. So you see it was the perfect scam for president Melgarejo being ripped off?

Corina San Roman later found the document in the convent of Tarata And then passed the story of treasure onto Prodgers who in turn muddied the details and finally Sanders by then the story took on a life of its own.

Our trip there in 1998 was just a trip was to see the ruins. While indeed you will find traces on Inca and pre Inca settlement there and one small ruined chapel. And indeed mining activity took places there. And perhaps small scale metal working there?

The fact remains the Jesuit treasure story was invented. Corina manipulated the story, Prodgers manipulated the story to suit his own ends. An so did Sanders. Even today the latest documentary. Once you been there in person you spot the out right lies that show made that will leave you exasperated.

There is an old saying never let truth get in the way of a good story.

Kanacki

 

[markmar]

Kanacki

So you say the Ampuera story was invented by Prodgers? Even if Ampuera said " cun0 ' or " cunco " , he was talking about a treasure out there.

What you don't pay attention in this story, is how in one of treasure's site description, the text said about an egg shaped stone on a hill, and Prodgers after Ampueras guiding , found that stone egg. Also Sanders found a parchment which said about a treasure. These are facts and not a legend.
From that point what is written in the descriptions, are codes for specific landmarks and distances.

You can understand there is something worth for research from the similarities between the two descriptions :
One describes a box clamped with three iron bars and 90000 silver coins, and the other describes a cup ornamented with three iron strips and 80000 silver coins. They say about the same things but using different terms.

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Marius's

I love all these yarns and the story is favorite of mine. But it easy to see people become to obsessed with the story.

The trio researched this topic and went places and archives book and journal you do not know even exist. Crow and another that used to post on Tnet to their credit absolutely smashing it. In fact Crow said to me he half wanted the story to be real but the truth was screaming out saying other wise. They went through hundreds of documents. Crow found in Tarata in the convent the real documents.



Not the crap written in every treasure hunting books posted on the topic year after year.

You cannot take Prodgers version word for word either. In regards to Ampuera he was not as old as prodgers made out to be. We have his birth records and in fact he did live in Cutti which is nearby. This was the estancia (cattle ranch) that 2 brothers that used to supply food to mining settlements and mines along Sacambaya river collectively known as Mines des Santiago. After the mines gave out and miners moved on and Pazula was abandoned like many areas of Bolivia. The estancia had no market for their produce. So the brothers gave it to the Jesuits of the collage of Ouro. After the expulsion the Templadors the estate was worth 6500 pesos. However the ranch was too remote away from potential markets and no one wanted to buy it. Eventually the abandoned ranch estate was taken over by Ampuera family and to their credit being full blooded native Bolivian and not a mixed breed, establish a successful cattle ranch. by the 1860's / 1870's the president Melgarejo who was half breed himself hated the native people and when in power stole from the native peoples such as Ampuera, even ones doing good for themselves. So its no wonder Ampuera never showed Melgarejo anything.

It is interesting to note Cutti was never a priory but ruined ranch that was left to the Jesuits. The chapel there was built by Ampuera in 1900. In fact descendants of his still live there. While Ampuera did recover treasure from Sacambaya. It was never Jesuit. In fact he was looting Inca graves along the river yielded small gold ornaments and pottery. Such as these looted pit tombs below.



In 1912 Prodgers tried to promote another expedition there was many exaggerations in his book with Sir Arthur Ormsby a backer who went broke. He exaggerated especially the size of the alleged treasure and the real details. Prodger had taken a very rough translation from the document Corina San Roman presented him. Sanders later went one better just completely BS everything.

Here is the Real version "Corina San Roman had" Directions created by Juan Bautista Saavedra in the mid 1860's to scam money from incompetent fool of president Melgarejo.

Discharge of conscience by the Convent of Sacambaya - Reverend Father Commander of the Society of Jesus and Conqueror of the 32 peoples of Moxos, by the Royal Audience our Politi-chario of Charcas, by the grace of God.

Fray Diego de Olivar, resident in the Vera River Sacambaya, understanding of Ayopaya, declares in the last hour of agony and says: That the same year of 1767, a Pontifical Decree, Clemente Sanjuanete, was issued for the expulsion of the Jesuits from all the communities of America, which was August 18 at one o'clock in the afternoon, so that we would be sent barefoot to an island in Rome, from where I went astray, ensuring all the flow in the same convent.

Seven brothers marched and were hanged in Rome, who belonged to the Martinez choir, for innocents; from where I confess: in the chapel on the right, there are five golden cups, worked by my own hands, further inside, in the sacristy, there is a large cup, with three belts of iron cinchones at three shafts of depth, where Two sacred glasses of the convent are deposited and eighty thousand in white currency.

The gold in pips was collected from Valle Alto, where we had to found a city, for its good climate and its plain, the names put by us, in the side there must be a hill called Tutinqui, where it climbs everywhere, in the tip will be a large pampichuela in the shape of a square, where gold and chafalonia were covered. Further down, it will be transformed on the east side, where you will find a stone or large door that will not collapse in a thousand years, because it is covered with a large stone inside, where you will find a portion of bones, where there is stone, he will lie down inwards, there he will find five thousand quintals quintals of gold (5,500 qq.) and the greatness that God placed on earth.

What I want you to enjoy in my name and remember with a Mass to San Gregorio and the other brothers who were hanged in Rome.

I express in defense of conscience, their names that follow me, Fray Diego de Olivar, Fray Gregorio Valdez, Fray Pedro Cuvay, Martínez Orbasi, Fray Agustín Oliva, Fray Runualdo Peña Soliz, Fray Carlos Bascopé and Fray Parisimo Buchini.

This letter that was copied several times, has some faults in its grammatical construction or was always so for the circumstances in which it was dictated. As you can see for yourself Prodgers and Sanders later version just added added to the bull crap. Ampuera, has a hand written copy given to him by Prodgers which is still in his descendants possession.

The hill called Tutinqui, is what is referred to as Caballo Cuno" Or As Prodgers politely referred to it as Caballo Cunoco"



There was a lost mine connected to Sacambaya story that is virtually unknown outside of Bolivia.

I have more to show you but I am very time poor at present.

kanacki

 

[markmar]

To all

First of all, nobody will ever find documents about Jesuit treasure in any archive all over the world. But if they ever made and left a map, this map has not cardinal directions and is based in landmarks which were well known only to them or made by them ( Jesuits ).

If you believe this story is fake, it's Ok. But you have to know how the real essence of that story is in the details from the descriptions and not in names or ages. Also you missed an important clue Ampuera said about the Caballo Cunco site. This clue with its characterstic, points to the real landmark and leaves out the other landmarks known as Mike's Caballo Cuno or the stone-shaped egg hill.
Ampuera said the clue but never showed it to Prodgers. Ampuera knew how if Prodgers would be represented the Jesuits, he would know to interpret the description and he would find the treasure. What showed up, was how Prodgers was only a treasure hunter, and Ampuera kept the place secret until his death.

You can see in the texts, the Jesuits used metaphorical descriptions for the landmarks , in one says about rooms and in the other about cups. What you have to think more about, is why was important the wall of buidling like a large door ( see my GE pic from previous post ) which protects the cave's entrance to be so thick that two men could walk abreast on it ( about 4 feet wide )?
Was made like a fortress against whom or what?

 

[gollum]

Hey Kanacki,

Just like the Stone Maps, you will NEVER be able to convince the "True Believers". HAHAHA Crow is the one that sent me the Unholy Trio Research. After going through that, there is no doubt that the whole thing was a sham.

All we can do is leave the truth for those that wish to see.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Mike

The difference between us is I never use anyone else research and let myself influenced by another persons opinion in what I believe. My own research is based on my own knowledge and my own work. If you find someone to tell you otherwise then post it.
There are " true believers " who know what is going on , and " true believers " who just beat the dead horse.

 

[gollum]

Mike

The difference between us is I never use anyone else research and let myself influenced by another persons opinion in what I believe. My own research is based on my own knowledge and my own work. If you find someone to tell you otherwise then post it.
There are " true believers " who know what is going on , and " true believers " who just beat the dead horse.

Unless you have access directly to national archives of Peru, you ARE using other people's research. At least I have access to copies of original documents to translate and form my own decisions. All you have are some made up storybooks and google earth pics. If you knew anything about the Unholy Trio, you might think differently about the quality of their research. To anybody who knows them, your statement makes you look foolish.

I have posted some, and Kanacki has posted some more. Nobody owes you JACK SQUAT! Nobody is required to provide you with anything.

Best of luck in your search - Mike

 

[markmar]

Unless you have access directly to national archives of Peru, you ARE using other people's research. At least I have access to copies of original documents to translate and form my own decisions. All you have are some made up storybooks and google earth pics. If you knew anything about the Unholy Trio, you might think differently about the quality of their research. To anybody who knows them, your statement makes you look foolish.

I have posted some, and Kanacki has posted some more. Nobody owes you JACK SQUAT! Nobody is required to provide you with anything.

Best of luck in your search - Mike

It's not me who needs supplemental info. You never thought, how would make you look your statements to anybody who knows me.

Best of luck to you and to archive's " rats " too.

 

[deducer]

It's not me who needs supplemental info. You never thought, how would make you look your statements to anybody who knows me.

Best of luck to you and to archive's " rats " too.

Marius,

I believe that the mark of a good researcher is the ability and the humility to admit error, or to accept that the subject that one has been researching for a long time has turned out to be false. Unfortunately there are people who just chose to "double down," and many of them get caught in the "sunken time fallacy." I have gone down several false paths myself and have had to let go of lost time/effort.

It's not easy to be humble and admit defeat or error, but it's much worse to "double down."

You are going against the advice of some pretty smart and experienced people.

 

[markmar]

Marius,

I believe that the mark of a good researcher is the ability and the humility to admit error, or to accept that the subject that one has been researching for a long time has turned out to be false. Unfortunately there are people who just chose to "double down," and many of them get caught in the "sunken time fallacy." I have gone down several false paths myself and have had to let go of lost time/effort.

It's not easy to be humble and admit defeat or error, but it's much worse to "double down."

You are going against the advice of some pretty smart and experienced people.

Arthur

I'm humble as much I can from my level of knowledge in treasure hunting research. I didn't say these men didn't do a good work searching the archives all over the world.
What I wanted to say but nobody understood is how only the documents from the archives are not enough to judge if a story is false or true.
I didn't force anybody to believe what I wrote and my words were only an answer at the same level of expression and respect used by the other members while we were debating this case. I never try to make a person who is debating with me to feel inferior vs me or the circumstances.
I always believed how the words don't make us superiors but only what we do.

 

[deducer]

Arthur

I'm humble as much I can from my level of knowledge in treasure hunting research. I didn't say these men didn't do a good work searching the archives all over the world.
What I wanted to say but nobody understood is how only the documents from the archives are not enough to judge if a story is false or true.
I didn't force anybody to believe what I wrote and my words were only an answer at the same level of expression and respect used by the other members while we were debating this case. I never try to make a person who is debating with me to feel inferior vs me or the circumstances.
I always believed how the words don't make us superiors but only what we do.

You claim to speak of respect, but you dismiss some very good, on-hand, in-person research that posters were kind enough to share with you. Research that was actually done in person, not solely on the internet or on google earth.

Anyway, this isn't about "mutual respect" but the jeopardy of choosing to "double down" in the face of evidence that's contrary to what you believe in.

 

[markmar]

You claim to speak of respect, but you dismiss some very good, on-hand, in-person research that posters were kind enough to share with you. Research that was actually done in person, not solely on the internet or on google earth.

Anyway, this isn't about "mutual respect" but the jeopardy of choosing to "double down" in the face of evidence that's contrary to what you believe in.

To end these series, let's take the whole thing from the beginning.
Few months ago, one Tnet member claimed in this thread the Sacambaya treasure to be Jesuit and prompted us to see a YouTube documentary about this treasure which was shot at the site. We all wrote our opinions and me from my part I added some info which to other people was unknown . What I have wrote at that time was my personal decryption of the " San Roman " letter which in my opinion has some hidden meanings.
Short time after this, to complete my thoughts on the Sacambaya treasure, I posted a GE image of the Caballo Cunco which now is depicted in my current avatar. This pic was like I have threw a grenade and few members started an attempt to prove to me how my theory was wrong in comparison with their research and theory. They wrote how are the " holy " trio in treasure hunting research and whomever dare to believe something else, would make him look like a fool to the other members.
From my part, I didn't read so important info they have shared that someone can make a clear image if the whole story about Sacabaya treasure is a fairy tale or not. They wrote how after a hard work in the archives, decided how the whole story is a scam. I respected their opinion, like I want others to respect mine.
Nobody is perfect and nobody knows everything. WE need the help of an ant , so to speak, if the circumstances need, and have to listen to the different knowledge and the different skills which somebody else has and had the kindness to share it.
In treasure hunting, everyone has his/her own way, fate and an own method to do a research. No matter how the reasearch is done but only the results.

Have a nice day

 

[Randy Bradford]

If nothing else, the idea of Jesuit Treasures, particularly the Tumacacori is an old one. Here's a clipping from:
The Emporia Gazette (Emporia,Kansas)
12 March 1894

 

[Al D]

There is soooo much wrong with that account,

 

[KANACKI]

Anyone really serious in searching for lost Spanish mines settlements and activities of various Church orders. Estanias, ecomindas should well be advised to search through the following very rare book. Compendio y Descripcion de las Indias Occidentales

In the English translated version it is called Description of the Indies. 1620 by Antonio Vazquez Espinosa. There is only one original copy in existence. That is in Vatican Archives, There are few English translated copies dated I think in 1920s and later edition reprinted in 1942. The library of congress has I believe has a 1942 copy.

A 1942 copy came up in few years ago for sale and sold for 16000 dollars. The original copy in Vatican is priceless.



Antonio Vazquez Espinosa was a Carmelites priest commissioned by the king of Spain to explore all the mining settlement Ecomindas, Estancia's towns and cities in the Spanish Territories of the new world. He took 22 years of traveling the new world to compile his book.

The very rare book in original Spanish having one in assistance. It is impossible to get permission to photograph it. You can only view in a special temperature controlled room. Before that you got get special permission and provide qualifications to Even see it. A rear treasure in itself to see it.

Another books of his Circunstancias para los tratos y contratos de las Indias del Perú y Nueva España (Málaga, 1624) in English Circumstances for the deals and contracts of the Indies of Peru and New Spain (Malaga, 1624)

Is a very interesting book also.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Another translated book with excellent information of early Spanish history of South America via Yale university professor the name escapes me...

The Geografia y descripcidn universal de las Indias (Madrid, 1894), compiled in 1571-74 by Lopez de Velasco, Coronista Mayor of the Council of the Indies, is a dictionary of geographical information, extremely useful for the sixteenth century, as is the gazeteer of Alcedo, Diccionario geogrdfico-histdrico de las Indias Occidentales 6 America (Madrid, 1 786-89. 5 vols.) ,^ for a later time. The fragment of the Jesuit Bernabe Cobo's Eistoria del Nuevo Mundo (Seville, 1890-93. 4 vols.), written presumably in Peru about 1653, comprises a systematic description of chmate, minerals, flora, fauna, etc., the most complete and painstaking that the early Spaniards have left us.

The Politica Indiana of Juan de Solorzano Pereira, published originally in Latin in 1629-39 under the title De Indiarum Jure, is first of all a legal treatise, only less ponderous than most legal writings of that day and generation; but it is also largely historical, and very valuable for the institutional side of Spanish colonial society.

All of these books help you understand early history of Spanish South America and how the vice royalty worked in administering the region.

Amazing to think they manages to hold on for nearly 400 years.

Kanacki