JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Steve,

both pictures are slag. The top picture is iron ore slag, the bottom silver ore slag.

It seems possible that the Guevavi slag stories were created to give legs to the Jesuit treasure tales, as nothing further came from them.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

SDCFIA wrote

We've pretty much all conceded that these sources, and probably more, provide a number of opinions that the Jesuits were involved in mining in AZ, at least to some degree. What we don't have is any evidence to support the pulp legends that specifically list several the exceedingly rich mines by name and provide inventory lists of huge caches of precious metals - all of which, with great effort, were cunningly hidden and then apparently abandoned and forgotten.

I confess that I won't take the time to read all this material, but let me ask you - do any of these sources discuss the specific flagship mines/caches that we've heard so many great things about? The provenance of these treasure tales, and many others not of Jesuit origin, is a great curiosity. I understand how typical people can get excited about these alleged treasures, based on the Jesuits' reputations (valid or not), but most of the furor seems to have come strictly from the media, or from alleged "documents" that surfaced to discuss the caches. My contention has always been that if these hoards were real, they were either recovered by their owners long ago, or they never existed to begin with. I tend to lean towards the latter, but with a stronger argument to the contrary, I would certainly change my tune.

　
Just what PULP LEGENDS do you refer to? How "exceedingly rich" do these legends claim? Please cite some of these stories you keep referring to, so that we may compare those exaggerations to what we find stated by non-treasure-mag-sources, thanks in advance.

I would point out that there was a reported recovery of a sizable amount of treasure in the 1800s, of course it was reported by newspapers so you don't believe it.

　
Cactusjumper wrote

In the 249 years since the expulsion, no one has found the treasures of the Jesuit Southwest. This despite the soldiers who managed the expulsion, searching every nook and cranny in the missions. This would include searching the sewage pits. They found no treasures, no mines or signs of mining. In the following 249 years no subsequent treasure hunters have ever found a mine or treasure that could be authenticated as belonging to the Jesuit Order in Mexico or the Southwest.

On the other hand, there is good evidence that the Jesuits owned a few, very few, mines.

The first (15) Jesuits arrived in Veracruz in 1572. I believe the first precept against mining, or knowledge of mining, came along 127 years later. I could be wrong on that time period, as my mind don't work so well lately. If someone has a date for the mining precept that is earlier than 1699, please correct me.

I do not have the time right now, but the king of Spain had issued the first edict (law) against all clergy mining activity dates to the 1500s, and repeated several times over the centuries. You would think that a Spanish LAW would hold at least as much weight as a Jesuit Precept or rule. Considering that it was illegal for clergy to be owning and operating mines (not just Jesuits) it is remarkable that ANY mines would have been owned openly, yet such was the case.

Your detailed search of "every crevice" including sewage pits NEVER HAPPENED ON THE FRONTIER INCLUDING ARIZONA. NO troops were sent, there was NO roundup, they simply sent word (by Indian) and the padres came in voluntarily. In fact no search was done after the Jesuits left Arizona, not even an inventory done until the arrival of the Franciscans and NO search is mentioned by that inventory either. This was a revelation for me as well, but it has been posted here before, and likewise no detailed search was done in most of Baja either. In fact at one mission the padre came trooping out to meet the Spanish sent to arrest him, along with a horde of loyal Indians, indicating that word had preceded the arrest. If you have the time sometime, look into the "arrest" of the Jesuits in Arizona, and the subsequent search for treasures, do not take my word on this and don't be surprised.

As to that demand for authenticated treasures, if that is your <not just you Joe> main point then we have wasted a terrific amount of time. We are NOT the first treasure hunters to come along. Treasures often are extremely difficult to identify just who or whom originally owned them. Who owned a bar of silver, which has no owners marks on it? We do NOT have all the documents that once existed. When the Americans arrived in Arizona, anyone could literally walk into the old Jesuit missions and simply help themselves to any and all documents that looked interesting. Worse, and I can not blame them for this but in later years the Franciscan padres occupying a couple of the missions were literally selling the old Jesuit documents for a dollar a page as a tourist item. It is remarkable that we have any at all remaining. So I will let you alone, and not continue to try to persuade you (not just you alone of course) when I do not know of any "authenticated" treasures that can be proven beyond all doubt to have belonged to the Jesuits. I remain respectfully in disagreement, however I do respect your position.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

PS while I was typing this up I noticed this which I had missed:

It seems possible that the Guevavi slag stories were created to give legs to the Jesuit treasure tales, as nothing further came from them.

The piles of slag at Guevavi are mentioned by archaeologists whom were studying the ruins. I doubt very much that archaeologists would have created the story of slag piles being found at the mission to give legs to a tale of Jesuit treasures. The slag piles at Tumacacori were the ones which were hauled away. The piles at Guevavi remain today, only some of it was hauled away, if you don't mind risking arrest for trespassing, you can go and see them for yourself, I know of at least two piles still there. Guevavi is also where clear evidence of metal casting (copper) was found, which the archaeologists were quite surprised to find.

Oroblanco


　
　
　
　

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe, you said " LATELY " We could go a few rounds on that

There is some reference to the Franciscans at Tayopa, I have always been curious, but couldn't get my teeth into anything, too well sanitized. But I have an uncomfortable feeling that they were involved in Tayopa, if so that would explain many unanswered questions, and open a new can of wriggly worms..

s

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Incidentally Joo, neither of your two pictures ( Steves ) show any slag what-so- ever.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Okay, up front I need to say that I don't have a pony ( or burro ) in this race.

It is fascinating at the very least, and had me hooked from the get-go.

I took a different route from an old map, only a few decades or so...

There are modernized copies available on line
My copy is older and seems to have more history on it than the new ones that I tried to compare them, apples to apples, and I gave up around 3am this morning.

Look up ( Perry C. VanArsdale maps )

I'll add more later.

#/;0{>~

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA wrote
Just what PULP LEGENDS do you refer to? How "exceedingly rich" do these legends claim? Please cite some of these stories you keep referring to, so that we may compare those exaggerations to what we find stated by non-treasure-mag-sources, thanks in advance.

Well, here's a quick and dirty list. The descriptions of these lost mines, their richness and their histories vary all over the place, but they are generally described as slave-worked, "padre"-owned (Jesuit, per time period) and operated, and were lost or concealed before the 1767 expulsion. Granted, John D Mitchell seems to be the go-to guy for many of the treasure writers who borrowed his stories and embellished them with their own details - sometimes making outrageous claims. I haven't attempted to document all of these book, magazine, newspaper and online tellings, but I think you get the picture. Unfortunately, it might be likely that Mitchell polluted much of the water that so many others drank. We also know that there were older newspaper stories about Jesuit mines and treasures preceding Mitchell, but my curiosity centers mainly on the first appearances of the stories - when and by whom - in the public record.

Lost Opata Mine: up to 1766; "padres"; dead Indian Princess buried along with a huge pile of silver.
Lost La Purisima Concepcion: up to 1750; "padres"; ore 1/2 silver, 1/5 gold; many hundreds feet of tunnels; 12 arrastras; sealed with a big copper door.
Lost Virgin Guadalupe Mine: 1648 (?); "padres"; 2050 mule loads virgin silver, 905 mule loads gold bullion.
Lost Escalante Mine: up to 1768; "padres"; rich gold ore, large gold bullion cache; sealed with a large iron door.
Lost La Esmeralda Mine: mined by Kino himself; very rich silver ore and bullion, gold ore and bullion; fabulous mission treasures.
Lost Carreta Canyon Mine: up to 1751; "padres"; rich silver mine, large cache of silver, gold, mission treasure, Sonora treasure; heavy wooden door.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

SDC, the descriptions vary --- of course they do, if the information was correct and accredited they wouldn't be lost . Take Naranjal for example, it lists it as being in 'Durango, not Sonora. It ignores the fact that in its time it 'was' in Durango, but in it's time Durango extended to include Sonora. The Juarez revolution created separate states

.ut that doesn't mean hey don't exist.

You needn't go that far back when communications were relatively none to as recent as WL How many treasures were lost and still are lost ?

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

These two pics speak volumes about how Perry VanArsdale felt and how much info there is available, if one is willing to research with a goal.

I could not see this info on the sites that show the modernized maps...,
But that may be a product of a small screen and old eyes and the late hours of squinting.

I will say that his info about the Asian Indians may have been stated with one digit too many, when trying to date their arrival to the west coast ( it's small print ). New evidence states 4,000 years ago.
Noting that his research was done prior to 1972 and possibly as early as 1936.

This map, was reproduced in his memory.
How many of us could have found that little piece of info?

One of his maps was intercepted by the warden of the Arizona State Penitentiary, and returned because the details and old trails info would be very helpful to an escapee.

Check him out.

#/;0{>~

 

[cactusjumper]

Incidentally Joo, neither of your two pictures ( Steves ) show any slag what-so- ever.

Don Jose,

As I have said many, many times, I don't know $#!t about rocks. I would accept your word about such things. This was my source:

silver and iron slag pictures - Bing images

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

More recent information of Guevavi:

Barnet Pavao-Zuckerman and J. Homer Thiel ? ?Recent Work at the Guevavi Mission? » Arizona Archaeological and Historical Society

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

And then there is this:

"To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used".

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/pinkley/pinkley_tuma/sec1.htm

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[nmth]

Well, I am a puny excuse for a researcher obviously, but I do put my boots on once in a while.

To whit: anyone have an opinion about this nice stone wall? It's from a steep canyon down in bandit-land not too far from Tumacacori. Seems too well made to be modern mining-related, but I'm new to the area, so my generative classification module is still training its nodes for S-AZ.

Also, about slag: in general, it will be "glassy" and sometimes bubbly, though often dark and heavy. If the operation is big and crude enough, then you can get lucky and find blebs, blobs, streaks, or layers of the "good stuff" still in it. Note that a lot of slag and clinkers "beep" due to homogenezation of the magentic content's orientation when melted and subsequently "frozen" (my theory anyways), but you will know the difference when you know your machine well enough. Wish I had a piece here to take a picture of - its at another house. Came from sdcfia's back 40 -ish and has a nice 1/8 inch layer of silver (+?) in it. Beautiful +10 VDI number on the beeper. The images posted a few posts back do not look like the slag I am used to finding.

Thanks everybody for all the information you share.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

NM, you will often find the charcoal doing the same thing, I have found the pores, tubes etc in it coated with Silver, indicates nicely, but without any practical value.

As for your rock wall, the only think that I can think of is for a furnace. They often constructed the chimney using three sides with the hill, thus eliminating a structual support. They could make the flue as long as they desired to develop the proper draw. They werm't exactly stupid in those days.

As for the slag pictures , nope it isn't slag, but possibly feed ore ready for crushing and processing.

 

[nmth]

NM, you will often find the charcoal doing the same thing, I have found the pores, tubes etc in it coated with Silver, indicates nicely, but without any practical value.

As for your rock wall, the only thing that I can think of is for a furnace. They often constructed the chimney using three sides with the hill, thus eliminating a structural support. They could make the flue as long as they desired to develop the proper draw. They weren't exactly stupid in those days.

As for the slag pictures , nope it isn't slag, but possibly feed ore ready for crushing and processing.

Old timers were definitely not stupid. They lived a lot more critical life. Every generation gets weaker until there's a new cataclysm.

I call the burned-out charcoal "clinkers" but maybe that's not the right term.

There were no signs of any hot fire on the wall or nearby. There are big mines nearby. Not much debris. No sign of ore processing or highgrade (bummer...) which surprised me. The quality of the wall seems totally out of character with anything else around. Seems to be quarried stone. Not used to seeing that anywhere I've stomped before.

Getting the right draw is really important! Took me forever to get my little smelter up above 1850F. Now I'm like a button factory once I get going.

 

[cactusjumper]

Well, I am a puny excuse for a researcher obviously, but I do put my boots on once in a while.

To whit: anyone have an opinion about this nice stone wall? It's from a steep canyon down in bandit-land not too far from Tumacacori. Seems too well made to be modern mining-related, but I'm new to the area, so my generative classification module is still training its nodes for S-AZ.

Also, about slag: in general, it will be "glassy" and sometimes bubbly, though often dark and heavy. If the operation is big and crude enough, then you can get lucky and find blebs, blobs, streaks, or layers of the "good stuff" still in it. Note that a lot of slag and clinkers "beep" due to homogenezation of the magentic content's orientation when melted and subsequently "frozen" (my theory anyways), but you will know the difference when you know your machine well enough. Wish I had a piece here to take a picture of - its at another house. Came from sdcfia's back 40 -ish and has a nice 1/8 inch layer of silver (+?) in it. Beautiful +10 VDI number on the beeper. The images posted a few posts back do not look like the slag I am used to finding.

Thanks everybody for all the information you share.

View attachment 1376993

nmth,

Nice find. Is there an entry through one of the walls? Possibly an arched entry?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Not much to work with in one pic. Is it possibly a wet weather spring holding tank?
My family has survived many years by hauling water from such tanks, as have small communities where we have lived.

#/;0{>~

 

[nmth]

nmth,

Nice find. Is there an entry through one of the walls? Possibly an arched entry?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Hi Joe,

I was on a "first scout" through the area, and watching my back for bandidos, so I did not poke around too much.

To describe the general setting and "structure" in greater detail: There is a small flat above the arroyo. The hill to the left of the picture is steep, and composed of a kind of andesite/tuff scree with small 0.5-1.5" size. Typical grassy desert bush/tree/cactus mix of S-AZ (not used to all the grass yet!) This is a dark, steep canyon. The one stone wall is the only wall or other part of the structure. No wood debris or other knocked down stone or anything. So, it's kind of like a retaining wall. One heck of a fancy retaining wall. Nothing at all like stacked rock roadbed siding or any other structure in the area that I have run across. If I was the History Channel, I'd muss my hair up real big, try and put a piece of paper between the cracks, mumble something about Puma Punku, and declare "Aliens!". Just kidding. No doors I could see. Some of the hill has come down and covered it up.

With all the mines in the area, I expected it was associated, but there's a total lack of the usual signs it was used for anything like that. Guess I will have to return and get better pictures and look around more slowly.

If there had been an entry, and if it was sealed, I probably would not share the photos (but probably would not go in either!) There could be one, and I missed it the first time, so may regret the post. I am interested in the history part (and neglected mineral deposits!) so I am hoping someone with an achitectural or related background can weigh in to shed some light on dates, builders, reason, etc.

As far as the water tank angle that another posted. Could be. There's no basin, and if the well has filled, it would be on the steep hill side, and it's totally covered.

Thanks!

 

[nmth]

Not much to work with in one pic. Is it possibly a wet weather spring holding tank?
My family has survived many years by hauling water from such tanks, as have small communities where we have lived.

#/;0{>~

Even though I am a "young" softie, I lived by hauling water from the spring earlier in life. It's not as bad as most today would think - you tend to conserve water as it's more than just flipping on the tap. Sweet, sweet rocky mountain spring water, about 40F from the hill. Nothing like it.

Sorry for the bad picture quality. I posted the best I had. I usally make little low-res snips, but for this one, I am looking for an ID so I put my best image up. I will have to return sometime this winter with a few armed compatriots and do a more thorough job of documentation.

Thanks.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Joe,

I was on a "first scout" through the area, and watching my back for bandidos, so I did not poke around too much.

To describe the general setting and "structure" in greater detail: There is a small flat above the arroyo. The hill to the left of the picture is steep, and composed of a kind of andesite/tuff scree with small 0.5-1.5" size. Typical grassy desert bush/tree/cactus mix of S-AZ (not used to all the grass yet!) This is a dark, steep canyon. The one stone wall is the only wall or other part of the structure. No wood debris or other knocked down stone or anything. So, it's kind of like a retaining wall. One heck of a fancy retaining wall. Nothing at all like stacked rock roadbed siding or any other structure in the area that I have run across. If I was the History Channel, I'd muss my hair up real big, try and put a piece of paper between the cracks, mumble something about Puma Punku, and declare "Aliens!". Just kidding. No doors I could see. Some of the hill has come down and covered it up.

With all the mines in the area, I expected it was associated, but there's a total lack of the usual signs it was used for anything like that. Guess I will have to return and get better pictures and look around more slowly.

If there had been an entry, and if it was sealed, I probably would not share the photos (but probably would not go in either!) There could be one, and I missed it the first time, so may regret the post. I am interested in the history part (and neglected mineral deposits!) so I am hoping someone with an achitectural or related background can weigh in to shed some light on dates, builders, reason, etc.

As far as the water tank angle that another posted. Could be. There's no basin, and if the well has filled, it would be on the steep hill side, and it's totally covered.

Thanks!

nmth,

For me, the work on that structure looks Aztec. Perhaps Don Jose will chime in with an opinion.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real of Tayopa]

NMTH

"There were no signs of any hot fire on the wall or nearby. There are big mines nearby. Not much debris. No sign of ore processing or highgrade (bummer...) which surprised me. The quality of the wall seems totally out of character with anything else around. Seems to be quarried stone. Not used to seeing that anywhere I've stomped before".


I agree, back to the drawing board again. err perhaps it hadn't been finished yet