JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cwp]

So...I'm finally gonna get paid for keeping all the damned spiders cleaned out of that cave??

Ay, Chihuahua...indeed...heheheh.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

CWP, you mean the honor isn't sufficient ?? How about coffee being thrown in ?

 

[cwp]

I'm more concerned about what's being thrown in the coffee.

Another feather in my warbonnet would be nice though....reckon I could always just wait on that camera crew and pluck one of their tail feathers...heheh.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Camera crew ?? you planing on a 'dance of the seven veils'? i demand a ring side seat.

 

[Not Peralta]

Camera crew ?? you planing on a 'dance of the seven veils'? i demand a ring side seat.

Amigo,Just sit and watch us cut a rug, no pictures please,NP

 

[Shortfinger]

Camera crew ?? you planing on a 'dance of the seven veils'? i demand a ring side seat.

Me too!!!!! Me too!!!!!

JB

 

[Oroblanco]

In reply to a post on another thread, which discussion rightly belongs in this thread

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

My only reason for writing that little story were to prove that a convincing fictional story could be penned without truth being at its core. By using true historical facts and legitimate geographical locations, it would not be all that difficult to make "wishful thinkers" believe the story. I count myself as a wishful thinker.

One thing I do believe, is that the Jesuits did what they had to for survival. If that went against the "rules", they were intelligent enough to work their way around it. They were men, not angels nor saints, just men in a very hard place. That means there is room for what you and many others believe about them. I am not convinced by the evidence you and others have presented. I believe there could be explanations that lead into another direction or explanation.

<snip> Hope to see you soon

First, in case you have not read the shorter reply in the thread on father Polzer and the stone maps, ditto, we are looking forward to seeing you and Carolyn soon too! I am getting quite nervous about the postal service, as they have pulled some nasty tricks the last two years, but have started sorting the load to pack for the trip. I really hope they don't pull something like they did last time, refusing to allow Beth to have her vacation time even though it had been scheduled months in advance and green-lighted weeks beforehand. It is tempting to just disconnect the danged telephone a week before it is time to head out, just to be sure they can't pull something.

　
Cactusjumper also wrote

Nothing would make me happier than to see you, Don Jose or anyone else prove the stories correct. That would include my story which, I believe, has many truths in it.

Well you may call it what ever you wish, however how can we describe the case of Jesuits having mines when you can literally stand in them? Is that wishful thinking? It would be like saying that Bigfoot is a figment of the imagination while sitting in the lap of a Bigfoot. Or are you taking the position that these old Jesuit mines, including (but not limited to) the Salero, Wandering Jew, Montezuma, Old Padres, the 'Pima' (Vekol) were NOT Jesuit mines, then who or whom are you saying they did belong to? If they belonged to someone else, why then did this attribution to Jesuits happen at all, and why would the Anglo miners have claimed to have found documents in the old Jesuit missions that helped them locate the mines? Isn't it just as easy to say that an old mine was Spanish or Mexican?

We have letters written by Jesuit priests themselves, Kino referring to his shipment of silver, Segesser about not being able to work the mines and the irony of living in the rich 'silver mountains' and yet having little silverware to use, the Indians whom had been their charges as the sources for most of these tales of Jesuit mines and treasures, and many OLD sources that attribute the earliest mining to the Jesuits? Add in the not-lost mines, some*** of which had extensive workings, the piles of slag found at several missions and slag built into mission walls by the Franciscans who followed, and the Catholic study which listed SOME of the mines owned by the Jesuits yet neglected to mention some rather remarkable ones.

***<Side note: And in some cases the 'workings' were barely noticeable, as at the Vekol, once known as the lost "Pima" mine, yet even here there are ancient workings that may date to the time of the Jesuits that have been broken into by more modern miners. As evidence that the Vekol had been in operation during the time of the Jesuits, we might note that the silver ore found there has a fair amount of platinum in it, and the smelting slag found at Guevavi likewise had a fair amount of platinum in it - platinum was virtually worthless in the time of the Jesuits so was discarded, and as far as I know, no other known source could have produced the platinum bearing ore/slag found at Guevavi in Arizona>

　
Now recall the able Jesuit defender Lamar disclaiming ALL such reports, stating that there never was any mining by Jesuits, no enslaving of natives or forced labor, and certainly no casting of bells whatsoever in North America in colonial times. Yet Tayopa was famous for their sweet-sounding bells, and for the high silver content in those bells; in fact one of the main Russian colonial churches in Alaska (Sitka if memory serves) proudly boasted of having a Tayopa silver bell to call the faithful to prayer. <The church had a terrible fire in the 1900s, and I do not know if that Tayopa bell was recovered or not, they did not reply to my enquiry> Do we then dismiss the Russian colonists boast, and conclude they never had any such bell, obtained by trading with the Spanish in California? This modern whitewash of the historical record is shameful. Even the Park Service has taken part in the modern whitewash, removing all of their former excellent display showing how the crude mining of the padres was carried on. These Jesuits were indeed men, and were living in different times and in a very dangerous place, so perhaps we should not judge them, yet neither should we dismiss their work. Was it kindness to have some "lazy" Indians whipped, or put into stocks as punishment? Why did the Pimas revolt, one of the leaders of this revolt fleeing to the supposedly evil Spaniards to escape the wrath of the Jesuit padres? Doesn't that tell you something?

　
Deducer posted an excellent summation of the case in Nentvig's work Rudo Ensayo, we have in that 'rude essay' (translation of title)a very real 'smoking gun' - proof of motive, opportunity, and ability. No one would dispute that the Jesuits were certainly the best educated men on the frontiers, and we find numerous references to the attention they paid to the rich mineral deposits. If this were supposed to attract Spanish settlers, why then do we find Jesuits working against the Spanish settlers and miners, trying to prevent them from hiring "their" Indians, and in private letters, complaining about Spanish visitors to their missions that were habitually taking what ever they desired and never offering payment?

　
Do you recall the post in which a Jesuit complained about his Indians fleeing his mission to go work for the "evil" Spaniards in their mines, and that they often refused to return to his mission even when the padre promised a silver mine to the runaway Indians? How could a padre even offer to give a silver mine to an Indian, if he had none to give? Further, what does it say about the treatment of the Indians at the missions, that they were running away to go work for those "evil" and cruel Spaniards in their mines? The mission system was often referred to by the Spanish authorities as "reducciones" for their main mission was to literally REDUCE the Indians to submission to Royal authorities, to become a work force for the Spanish and to produce incomes for the Spanish. The Jesuits seemed to be working at cross purposes then, for while they were supposed to be working to convert their Indians to Christianity, and to speak and read Spanish, becoming Spanish subjects to produce tax incomes etc, yet instead we find the Jesuits preventing the Spanish colonial frontiers from advancing, asking and most often obtaining extensions of time beyond the ten years that was supposed to be allotted for the padres to fully convert and REDUCE the Indians to submission. Franciscan father Garces was shocked, to judge from his letters, to find the Indians at the former Jesuit missions did not learn to speak or read Spanish, that they could not even give the Catechism. Garces sarcastically blamed this on the Jesuits being "too busy" with all of their other "labors" to have been properly instructing the mission Indians, a situation he stated would be corrected.

　
To me, the alternate theory simply doesn't float. If the early mining activity really was Spaniards, then what Spaniards were they? Why did the earliest American prospectors state that they found documents describing Jesuit mines, if these mines really belonged to Spaniards? Surely they would have had better success by visiting the Spanish archives and records than by going through the old papers at the decaying missions, right?

　
I get the impression that for some people that dismiss the Jesuit mining and treasures, part of the problem is in the IDEA of what that really means. It is not an all-or-nothing proposition, not vast treasures to rival Trump and the 'secrecy' part is more like an open secret, with the mines being known of to a degree by the Spanish authorities but they were willing to turn a blind eye, especially on the wild frontier where it was hoped the wild Indians would become passive members of the Spanish colonial empire. If someone is imagining a vast treasure, enough to fill a train and pay off the national debt, super-rich mines that amount to gigantic veins of precious metals that only needs to be chopped out of the rock to make one instantly wealthy, then of course that vision of reality is deeply flawed and incorrect. The Jesuits did not have the manpower or technology available to operate at such a level to produce such treasures and we know from actual records just how rich mines can be in Arizona. Some can be very rich indeed, and certainly the first prospectors on the spot had the best to choose from. Would you consider a treasure of silver, estimated at worth $40,000 circa 1850 (probably twenty times that today or $800k) to be a treasure worth looking for? For me, that is certainly worth pursuing. Likewise for the mines, although a 300 year old mine will likely need considerable repairs to make it safe to enter let alone work it, the chances are good that it would be of a rich enough grade that Jesuits using quite simple technologies were able to extract metals from it so would probably be rich enough for the typical 'Mom-n-Pop" type mining operation today. This may not be the case in every mine either, as the Spanish found with some of the gold mines in Baja that had been operated by the Jesuits, the ore was too poor to mine it profitably for the Spanish, due to labor costs. That said, I am sure that to some people including among the treasure hunters here, a treasure of $800,000 is not worthy of attention, small potatoes, "incidental' level mining.

　
Then too, what do silver and gold mines produce, but silver and gold, correct? We have very little record of much silver or gold being shipped out by the Jesuits of the frontiers. Where did the bullion go? We have a version of what happened to it, in the stories told to early Anglo miners, that these treasures were secreted away when the Jesuits were ousted. Of course one can stand on a turnip and demand that unless someone shows you such a treasure you won't believe or accept it, but in this case we have several circumstantial pieces that point to the Jesuits having stashed some fairly impressive treasures in "their" areas. As to WHY they might have been doing this, which was clearly illegal under Spanish law, we can only surmise, yet even here we do have some indication that something was afoot in 1767, and would have required a 'war chest' of a lot of money. Namely, that the Jesuits were plotting to betray Spanish America to the Dutch, and also one key strategic island off Chile to the English. We have this from an English source which rather confirms the claim, and then recall what the Spanish king wrote in his order expelling the Jesuits - that he had "reasons which he kept in his mind" (paraphrasing but essentially correct). We know that the Jesuits had been involved in political plots in Portugal and France, and almost certainly in Spain as well. Did the King get wind of the Jesuits plotting with the Dutch and English? If he had, would that not explain why he ordered their expulsion to be something like a 'sting' operation, to sweep them up quickly and quietly and get them OUT of America before they could react?

　
Now remember that the Spanish made some efforts to find the treasures of the Jesuits. WHY would they have bothered, if the Jesuits had not been known to be amassing wealth? We have the complaint of bishop Palafox about the Jesuits seemingly grabbing up all the wealth of the country in Mexico, to the point that it was becoming a threat to the very existence of the state and this occurred nearly a century before their expulsion. This search for the hidden wealth failed to find very much, and was almost certainly NOT the main reason for why the Jesuits were expelled, yet it is not to be denied that the Royal authorities executed searches, not in every mission of course but at the larger cities, and almost certainly had good reason to be looking!

I fail to see how this all amounts to "wishful thinking" or to dismiss the stories of Jesuit mines and treasure to the fevered imaginations of treasure writers, when we have posted numerous sources in this very thread that are NOT treasure writers, telling us that the Jesuits had mines, rich ones in some places, and were amassing an impressive amount of wealth and power. So much so that bishop Palafox became alarmed at it, as well as their arrogant attitude shown him. We have posted links to the study published by a Catholic source and written by a Catholic listing the wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico at their expulsion - does that read like a group of poverty stricken men living hand to mouth to you? Yet even this study failed to uncover some of the mines, and only mentioned a handful. Lt Mowry found documents for over 100 mines in Arizona that the Jesuits had. When you consider that they had a rather long time period, and a free source of manpower, plus the driving need to produce income, this number should not be too shocking. Plus we know that the padres were 'pumping' the mission Indians to get information to help find still more veins of silver and gold, as mentioned by Nentvig.

Well now that I have blabbed another sixty thousand words where fifty probably would have done, I will close. Perhaps over the winter, I will find the time to go back over this thread and the other one where the debate started, to try to sum up the evidence for Jesuit mines and treasures, but do not have the time right now. Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Well you may call it what ever you wish, however how can we describe the case of Jesuits having mines when you can literally stand in them? Is that wishful thinking? It would be like saying that Bigfoot is a figment of the imagination while sitting in the lap of a Bigfoot. Or are you taking the position that these old Jesuit mines, including (but not limited to) the Salero, Wandering Jew, Montezuma, Old Padres, the 'Pima' (Vekol) were NOT Jesuit mines, then who or whom are you saying they did belong to? If they belonged to someone else, why then did this attribution to Jesuits happen at all, and why would the Anglo miners have claimed to have found documents in the old Jesuit missions that helped them locate the mines? Isn't it just as easy to say that an old mine was Spanish or Mexican?"

I have stood in many old abandoned mines in my lifetime. How would one determine a Jesuit mine, as opposed to a Franciscan? I understand that some of the early writers labeled some mines as being Jesuit, any number of reporters also did the same. There are very few documents proving Jesuit ownership of mines, despite rumors. Treasure Hunters have been seeing "evidence" of Jesuit mining since the expulsion. The proof is very thin.

I will address your other comments later.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"Well you may call it what ever you wish, however how can we describe the case of Jesuits having mines when you can literally stand in them? Is that wishful thinking? It would be like saying that Bigfoot is a figment of the imagination while sitting in the lap of a Bigfoot. Or are you taking the position that these old Jesuit mines, including (but not limited to) the Salero, Wandering Jew, Montezuma, Old Padres, the 'Pima' (Vekol) were NOT Jesuit mines, then who or whom are you saying they did belong to? If they belonged to someone else, why then did this attribution to Jesuits happen at all, and why would the Anglo miners have claimed to have found documents in the old Jesuit missions that helped them locate the mines? Isn't it just as easy to say that an old mine was Spanish or Mexican?"

I have stood in many old abandoned mines in my lifetime. How would one determine a Jesuit mine, as opposed to a Franciscan? I understand that some of the early writers labeled some mines as being Jesuit, any number of reporters also did the same. There are very few documents proving Jesuit ownership of mines, despite rumors. Treasure Hunters have been seeing "evidence" of Jesuit mining since the expulsion. The proof is very thin.

I will address your other comments later.

Take care,

Joe

Mis-attributed owners of the old mines found? Isn't that a bit like finding an egg in the coop with a chicken, and trying to say it must be a turtle egg? I mean by that, we have SOME indication from the Jesuits themselves that they had mines, which they may have been claiming belonged to the Indians of their missions yet they would have not only managed but had complete control over production, the stories from the Indians of those missions saying it had been the work of the Jesuits, numerous other sources (OLD sources at that) attributing the mines to the Jesuits, the smelting slag in the mission walls and in piles at Guevavi and Tumacacori, the reports of the miners who found the mines mentioned earlier attributing them to the Jesuits and stating that they had found documents in the Jesuit missions that in some cases helped locate the mines. Against this we have the theory that it must have been someone else doing the mining in pre-Anglo Arizona, Spaniards or Mexicans?

Then recall that the Arizona frontier was not exactly thickly populated with Spanish/Mexican colonists. The greatest influxes would be the silver rush at Planchas de Plata, which quickly played out and was abandoned, with the Spanish retreating for safer climes. Tubac with its Spanish military garrison being the other place. The Spanish rush at Planchas de Plata was not viewed with pleasure by the Jesuits either. Plus we know of at least one Spanish expedition into Arizona to try to locate the old Jesuit mines, in the mid 1810s. If we are to say the mines such as Salero were not Jesuit but Spanish, then what Spanish? As you know they kept pretty good records.

After the time of the Jesuits we can point to two other 'incursions' of Spanish, one at the new presidio set up on the San Pedro river and withdrawn after a short time due to the incessant Apache attacks, and at Tucson. There is also a couple of other mining activity that we can safely say was not the Spanish or not Spanish alone, on the Colorado river where the Franciscans founded a pair of new missions (which were the subject of a rebellion not long afterwards and withdrawn, with the padres murdered and mines lost) and some placer mining activity near Baboquiviri by a padre of the Augustinian order.

Looking forward to seeing you soon,
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Mis-attributed owners of the old mines found? Isn't that a bit like finding an egg in the coop with a chicken, and trying to say it must be a turtle egg? I mean by that, we have SOME indication from the Jesuits themselves that they had mines, which they may have been claiming belonged to the Indians of their missions yet they would have not only managed but had complete control over production, the stories from the Indians of those missions saying it had been the work of the Jesuits, numerous other sources (OLD sources at that) attributing the mines to the Jesuits, the smelting slag in the mission walls and in piles at Guevavi and Tumacacori, the reports of the miners who found the mines mentioned earlier attributing them to the Jesuits and stating that they had found documents in the Jesuit missions that in some cases helped locate the mines. Against this we have the theory that it must have been someone else doing the mining in pre-Anglo Arizona, Spaniards or Mexicans?

Then recall that the Arizona frontier was not exactly thickly populated with Spanish/Mexican colonists. The greatest influxes would be the silver rush at Planchas de Plata, which quickly played out and was abandoned, with the Spanish retreating for safer climes. Tubac with its Spanish military garrison being the other place. The Spanish rush at Planchas de Plata was not viewed with pleasure by the Jesuits either. Plus we know of at least one Spanish expedition into Arizona to try to locate the old Jesuit mines, in the mid 1810s. If we are to say the mines such as Salero were not Jesuit but Spanish, then what Spanish? As you know they kept pretty good records.

After the time of the Jesuits we can point to two other 'incursions' of Spanish, one at the new presidio set up on the San Pedro river and withdrawn after a short time due to the incessant Apache attacks, and at Tucson. There is also a couple of other mining activity that we can safely say was not the Spanish or not Spanish alone, on the Colorado river where the Franciscans founded a pair of new missions (which were the subject of a rebellion not long afterwards and withdrawn, with the padres murdered and mines lost) and some placer mining activity near Baboquiviri by a padre of the Augustinian order.

Looking forward to seeing you soon,
Roy

Roy,

I believe it is pretty well known that the Spanish mine owners made a regular practice of cheating the king out of his royal fifth. It's no stretch to imagine them working mines in total secrecy. In fact such mines are mentioned in "Rudo Ensayo".

"Isn't that a bit like finding an egg in the coop with a chicken"

I suppose you could say that......If you had a chicken coop that was a few million square miles in size. Now if you found that egg in a mission chicken coop, I believe you could safely say it belonged to the mission.

I have stipulated that the Jesuits did own and control some mines, in Mexico. To continue the direction of this conversation, I would say they were (almost) as few as hen's teeth.

"the smelting slag in the mission walls and in piles at Guevavi and Tumacacori, the reports of the miners who found the mines mentioned earlier attributing them to the Jesuits and stating that they had found documents in the Jesuit missions that in some cases helped locate the mines."

As I have mentioned before, the Jesuits made many items of iron. They also cast church bells. Many claims were made in that era, some demonstrably false. I have claimed I found a cave full of gold bars and a cross and statue of solid gold. It's a story with historical background and the statue and cross have been mentioned in other tales. Is there no other explanation for a foundry with piles of slag on mission grounds, other than they must have had a gold or silver mine nearby?

Kino insisted on payment for goods and service with silver bars, and I assume some gold. Is it possible they took the silver and fashioned it into chalices, crosses and candlestick holders? Other missions did much the same.

I am not saying you are wrong, only that there are other answers that may differ with your conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe, slag from iron and church bell metals smelting is not the same as Gold and Silver smelting. Sides, wern't they prohibited to have any knowledge of anything mining ??

 

[captain1965]

Some of the slag found at the Tumacacori was reported to have been reprocessed for precious metals. Interesting if true.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I believe it is pretty well known that the Spanish mine owners made a regular practice of cheating the king out of his royal fifth. It's no stretch to imagine them working mines in total secrecy. In fact such mines are mentioned in "Rudo Ensayo".

"Isn't that a bit like finding an egg in the coop with a chicken"

I suppose you could say that......If you had a chicken coop that was a few million square miles in size. Now if you found that egg in a mission chicken coop, I believe you could safely say it belonged to the mission.

I have stipulated that the Jesuits did own and control some mines, in Mexico. To continue the direction of this conversation, I would say they were (almost) as few as hen's teeth.

"the smelting slag in the mission walls and in piles at Guevavi and Tumacacori, the reports of the miners who found the mines mentioned earlier attributing them to the Jesuits and stating that they had found documents in the Jesuit missions that in some cases helped locate the mines."

As I have mentioned before, the Jesuits made many items of iron. They also cast church bells. Many claims were made in that era, some demonstrably false. I have claimed I found a cave full of gold bars and a cross and statue of solid gold. It's a story with historical background and the statue and cross have been mentioned in other tales. Is there no other explanation for a foundry with piles of slag on mission grounds, other than they must have had a gold or silver mine nearby?

Kino insisted on payment for goods and service with silver bars, and I assume some gold. Is it possible they took the silver and fashioned it into chalices, crosses and candlestick holders? Other missions did much the same.

I am not saying you are wrong, only that there are other answers that may differ with your conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

I do not know how to prove to you, that slag produced by blacksmithing operations is not only quite different from the silica slag produced by smelting other than to tell you to ask a blacksmith. Not to mention the sheer quantity produced, would not be TONS from a blacksmithing operation. There is an old blacksmith shop site at the ghost town of Pinal you can visit, and find blacksmithing slag there. Such slag is rather small, rich in iron and carbon and iron oxide, some silica and tiny trace amounts of other impurities. Smelter slag is rich in silica (usually) looking more glass-like, and usually has fairly high minor amounts of the metals that were being processed out of the ore as the recovery was not as good in the 1700s as centuries later.

When you have the story, the mines, the missions and it will all fit, versus the idea that we imagine some other owners and operators for the mines and smelting operation, and have NO stories or Indian sources saying these other people were mining, which makes more sense to you? We could propose that the mining in southern Arizona must have been done by the Vikings, since it is known that the king of Norway sent out an expedition in the 1320s to try to find out what happened to the west Greenland and Vinland colonies, and this expedition apparently vanished. Plus we know that several 'rune' stones have been found almost in the middle of America, which seem to date to that same time period, we have the blond Mayo Indians and the legend of the 'great canoa' coming from the Pacific, even the story of the stranded Viking ship in the desert - and the mining technology used in the old mines as found by the early Anglo miners was not much advanced over what Viking technology was, using lime and water to crack rock for instance rather than gunpowder which would have been costly, while they could produce their own lime and again we have evidence that the Jesuits were indeed producing lime and large amounts of charcoal as well, necessary for smelting. But we don't have any kind of 'witness' testimony to support this Viking miners idea, nor do we have any names for any Spanish miners or Mexicans that were operating the mines in the Santa Rita mountains or Vekol. We do have a chain of largely circumstantial evidence pointing to the Jesuits as the pioneer miners of the Pacific slope of America. Pimeria Alta was a very dangerous place for Spanish and Mexican colonists, right up to the Mexican war.

 

[sdcfia]

I would be hard pressed to accept the early Anglos' reports of finding Jesuit mines (if they are genuine reports in the first place and not just newspaper or treasure magazine embellishments) at face value. What expertise did these folks have that enabled them to ID old workings they happened to find? I've been inside a great number of old underground workings in the Southwest region that would be quite difficult to peg as "Spanish", "Mexican" or "early Anglo" (pre-corporations). The methods used by all these groups were crude and similar - usually simply following surface outcrops until they pinched out or caved in. The shoring, if any, was essentially the same. If any tools were left behind, chances are they were hand-forged. Chicken ladders? Easy to make from readily available trees. Leather ore bags? Ditto from readily available animal hides. Arrastras? Used by Anglos in New Mexico into the WWII days and beyond. This is a similar situation to the many early native ruins that folks discovered in the Southwest and were mistakenly called "Aztec." Sounded better, I guess.

And - Jesuit mining records found in the old missions? That strikes me as crazy talk or a lack of fact-checking by the writers.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Do you know when the rules against knowledge of mining were first placed on the Jesuits of Mexico? Is it possible that the slag heaps predated that time?

Take care,

Joe

 

[audigger53]

Interesting. Nathem, If you have convinced the officiales of that, then you can safely post the "details" in here, go to it,

Where and in what state is the church in, both physically and location., > Pictures ??

You have, of course, filed upon it, under what expediente no ?

Coffee pot is always on incidentally, how is it that the church domed roof is still intact ?

P.S., just what makes you confident that you have Tayopa

Incidentally here are the distances of the mines from The capilla de Tayopa.


View attachment 1307217

I can see rhat we are going to have a hot time in Chihuahua in here!

Jose, did you ever figure out Paces to the vera? Military taught me a 30 inch pace. Any ideas?

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose, did you ever figure out Paces to the vera? Military taught me a 30 inch pace. Any ideas?

AU,

I believe the accepted measurement for the vara, is 33 1/3". From what I have read, that changes depending on who's doing the figuring. I have seen different numbers.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Do you know when the rules against knowledge of mining were first placed on the Jesuits of Mexico? Is it possible that the slag heaps predated that time?

Take care,

Joe

No I sure do not know the date when the knowledge of mining became taboo, however I believe that our mutual amigo Mike has posted this in this thread some time ago.

If the slag heaps predated the arrival of the Jesuits, surely Kino would have noted them. He did mention in his own writings that Pimas had approached them before their entrada into Pimeria Alta to enquire about "buying" a Jesuit, asking how much silver it would cost, so this indicates the Indians were already aware of silver in their own country. But when we cast about for other, alternate explanations for the old mines found by the early Anglos and the associated stories they repeated from the Indians, we are left with no clear candidates.

SDCFIA as neither you nor I were there, and we have their published word, on what grounds do you wish to impeach them? Who or whom do you then propose was the owner and operators of these old mines found by the early Anglos? Remember the Spanish kept pretty good records, and there are records of Spanish mines in the southwest as we see in New Mexico. If they were not the work of the Jesuits, as the Indians told the early Anglos, and as we find definitely referred to by the Jesuits themselves (remember Segesser's letter, he complained of not being able to work the gold and silver mines, and in another letter wished he could send a "golden ball" to another padre whom had become elderly and this way the man would not have to "live in penury" indicating this golden ball must have had some sizable cash value - and of course we have the reports of Jesuit smuggling of "chocolates" which were round balls of gold covered in a layer of chocolate an inch thick.

One last thing here but as to the "secret" mines of the Jesuits, by "secret" this term is a problem because it means such different things to different people reading it. Perhaps it would be better to use a long explanation to say that these mines were NOT BEING PUBLICIZED, rather than 'secret', as we know that in other places the Jesuits were openly owning and operating mines which was clearly against Spanish law. They were hardly the only Order to be so involved either, even nuns became involved in the mining and refining business.

Is it really SO difficult to conceive that the missions of Arizona were not just raising cattle and wheat? Why do people insist that it had to be either a top-secret type operation as if it were a presidential assassination, and gigantic, immense hoards of treasures OR they had no mines or treasures? Look at what is documented - Kino mentioned sending a shipment of some 800 ounces of silver, this is nothing to sneeze at although I am sure that to some well heeled folks here on T-net that is chump change, and the impressive silver altar service at San Xavier del Bac was estimated as worth at least $40,000. Does this sounds as if it is nothing, or some vast treasure that could buy a country? I would say that the evidence points to some mining activity and almost certainly hoarding in the same region, due to the risks of shipping it AND the plot being negotiated to betray the colonies. While the padres had free manpower, it was not unlimited, some had to be herding the livestock, tending fields etc and this is exactly how the Jesuit operations are described for Paraguay where they set up their own theocratic state. Remember father Garces report that the Indians of Pimeria Alta were pleasantly surprised that the Franciscans had not arrived to act as their 'bosses'? And compare this with Segesser's letter in which he complains of having SO much to manage, so many different operations all going on at once that he had little time for the actual 'missionary' type work of making new converts, performing baptisms and marriages etc. The mission system was a vast business enterprise, with proceeds intended to flow up the chain of 'command'.

So - NOT gigantic mega-hoards of wealth so vast as to count in the trillions, nor mines that would have to look like the Lavender Pit to produce such a treasure, and not the other extreme of 'incidental' type mining by picking up a few nuggets to make into 'bling' either or we would not have the silver altar at Bac nor could Kino have shipped some 800 ounces in one load. This is only one shipment too, there almost certainly had to be more.

Who or whom were the miners that left the mines in the Santa Ritas and in a few other areas of southern Arizona, if not the people that the Indians said it was and as is reported by the Anglos who re-discovered them?

 

[Oroblanco]

Bisbee daily review. (Bisbee, Ariz.) 1901-1971, November 21, 1915, 1915 MINING EDITION, SECTION A, Image 27 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
Just another report crediting the Jesuits as the pioneer miners of Arizona. Where are the reports of Spanish miners?

Side point here but the Franciscan attempt to found new missions on the Colorado river was a NEW type of effort, for they brought Spanish colonists with the padres. This proved disastrous as history records the two new settlements were massacred by the Indians not long after their founding. The point of this is that prior to this attempt by father Garces on the Colorado, only the padres were sent into new Indian regions like Pimeria Alta, Spaniards and other colonists were not included except at the presidios, and virtually no record of any mining at these presidios.

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is another one for you, concerning a silver mine in the Santa Ritas worked by the Jesuits

The oasis. (Arizola, Ariz.) 1893-1920, October 24, 1903, Image 12 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Estimated between 200,000 and 300,000 tons of ore removed, with NO tailings left behind. Does this sound like 'incidental' level mining? Of course it does not equal what the Americans mined a century later but it is far beyond what would be needed to cast a couple of bells and make decorations for a saddle.