JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

AZTEC!

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Even though I am a "young" softie, I lived by hauling water from the spring earlier in life. It's not as bad as most today would think - you tend to conserve water as it's more than just flipping on the tap. Sweet, sweet rocky mountain spring water, about 40F from the hill. Nothing like it.

Sorry for the bad picture quality. I posted the best I had. I usally make little low-res snips, but for this one, I am looking for an ID so I put my best image up. I will have to return sometime this winter with a few armed compatriots and do a more thorough job of documentation.

Thanks.

Yep, there is something about a wooden bucket and a metal dipper...

My older brother would always carry the empty bucket down the hill to the spring and the last fifty feet back into the house.

I figured it out after a few years...

<|:0(

 

[treasminder2]

it's a Knights Templar Pentinent holding cell .

the shackles were taken away in 1881 and used to haul bad ladies through the Mud

I swear ,, it's true
I saw it with my own one eye

 

[Oroblanco]

Well, here's a quick and dirty list. The descriptions of these lost mines, their richness and their histories vary all over the place, but they are generally described as slave-worked, "padre"-owned (Jesuit, per time period) and operated, and were lost or concealed before the 1767 expulsion. Granted, John D Mitchell seems to be the go-to guy for many of the treasure writers who borrowed his stories and embellished them with their own details - sometimes making outrageous claims. I haven't attempted to document all of these book, magazine, newspaper and online tellings, but I think you get the picture. Unfortunately, it might be likely that Mitchell polluted much of the water that so many others drank. We also know that there were older newspaper stories about Jesuit mines and treasures preceding Mitchell, but my curiosity centers mainly on the first appearances of the stories - when and by whom - in the public record.

Lost Opata Mine: up to 1766; "padres"; dead Indian Princess buried along with a huge pile of silver.
Lost La Purisima Concepcion: up to 1750; "padres"; ore 1/2 silver, 1/5 gold; many hundreds feet of tunnels; 12 arrastras; sealed with a big copper door.
Lost Virgin Guadalupe Mine: 1648 (?); "padres"; 2050 mule loads virgin silver, 905 mule loads gold bullion.
Lost Escalante Mine: up to 1768; "padres"; rich gold ore, large gold bullion cache; sealed with a large iron door.
Lost La Esmeralda Mine: mined by Kino himself; very rich silver ore and bullion, gold ore and bullion; fabulous mission treasures.
Lost Carreta Canyon Mine: up to 1751; "padres"; rich silver mine, large cache of silver, gold, mission treasure, Sonora treasure; heavy wooden door.

Thanks for citing your source, which is apparently John D. Mitchell. I think it is good to keep in mind just what our sources got their information from. Mitchell obtained most (if not all) of his information from talking to locals including local Indians, rather than researching history books/archives. The spoken word (stories) are notorious for getting things distorted, and particularly exaggerated. There is a great scene in the movie about the Lost Dutchman (Lust for Gold starring Glenn Ford) in which the 'Dutchman' is selling his gold and the word of mouth getting passed back through the crowd gets magnified and distorted far beyond the original. I have copies of Mitchell's books and when I have more time will check exactly what he said about each of your listed examples for those "incredibly" rich treasures/mines.

It is not uncommon for the use of superlatives to describe treasures (or mines) when telling about them, including in modern mining magazines. I have seen modern articles describing modern gold mines as having "incredibly" rich ore, which also mentions that it has over an ounce per ton. A major issue is in how each person interprets that written word. To one person, finding a vein of ore that has one ounce of gold per ton is indeed "incredibly rich" while to another that may not sound impressive at all.

I would not be too hard on Mitchell, he was re-telling the stories pretty much as he got them; in fact you can confirm some of the details from some of those stories if you simply follow his directions. Similarly, I would keep in mind when reading Terry's short listings in his state by state treasure atlas series, Terry was a newsman and was simply compiling the stories as he found them, not checking census type data from the national archives. If this kind of source is not to your liking, then your choices of treasures to hunt are going to be extremely limited, and it is well to remember that others have been successful in searching for lost mines/treasures when they had the worst possible sources, as with the Silver King example. NO documentation of any kind to support that story, yet it made a few men quite wealthy.

Please do continue,

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks for citing your source, which is apparently John D. Mitchell. I think it is good to keep in mind just what our sources got their information from. Mitchell obtained most (if not all) of his information from talking to locals including local Indians, rather than researching history books/archives. The spoken word (stories) are notorious for getting things distorted, and particularly exaggerated. There is a great scene in the movie about the Lost Dutchman (Lust for Gold starring Glenn Ford) in which the 'Dutchman' is selling his gold and the word of mouth getting passed back through the crowd gets magnified and distorted far beyond the original. I have copies of Mitchell's books and when I have more time will check exactly what he said about each of your listed examples for those "incredibly" rich treasures/mines.

It is not uncommon for the use of superlatives to describe treasures (or mines) when telling about them, including in modern mining magazines. I have seen modern articles describing modern gold mines as having "incredibly" rich ore, which also mentions that it has over an ounce per ton. A major issue is in how each person interprets that written word. To one person, finding a vein of ore that has one ounce of gold per ton is indeed "incredibly rich" while to another that may not sound impressive at all.

I would not be too hard on Mitchell, he was re-telling the stories pretty much as he got them; in fact you can confirm some of the details from some of those stories if you simply follow his directions. Similarly, I would keep in mind when reading Terry's short listings in his state by state treasure atlas series, Terry was a newsman and was simply compiling the stories as he found them, not checking census type data from the national archives. If this kind of source is not to your liking, then your choices of treasures to hunt are going to be extremely limited, and it is well to remember that others have been successful in searching for lost mines/treasures when they had the worst possible sources, as with the Silver King example. NO documentation of any kind to support that story, yet it made a few men quite wealthy.

Please do continue,

Yup. There ya go. Mitchell is certainly one of the Typhoid Marys of this sickness.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Hola SDC, yet my lil Escondida mine lists av. $ 2.000 a ton -- up an ounce per ton of gold, one sample @ 5 ounces -- -- yet no takers. So Rich mines do exist but the majors are going for open pit mines of some thousands of Hect, not interested in my lil hard rock mine.

 

[sdcfia]

Hola SDC, yet my lil Escondida mine lists av. $ 2.000 a ton -- up an ounce per ton of gold, one sample @ 5 ounces -- -- yet no takers. So Rich mines do exist but the majors are going for open pit mines of some thousands of Hect, not interested in my lil hard rock mine.

Majors? Huh-uh. Nope, you'd need to first start at the beginning. A couple attractive assays are only good for your ego, not your pocketbook.

You need to set your sights on a Canadian explorer, somehow lure their geologist out to your site, provide iron-clad proof you own the workings and a lot of open ground surrounding it, show documentation that the mine has a history, delineate the usable infrastructure already in the region, and let him sample the place top to bottom. Then, if decide they like its looks, they'll come back and do a boatload of additional work - sampling, geologic mapping, environmental assessment, political assessment, and more.

Then, if you're still at favor with them, your property will go onto the pile of possibles - of which they likely have plenty. Then, if things look really, really good to them - perhaps in a few years later - they might talk with you about getting serious about the claims. Any offers that would come your way would give most of the potential to them and leave you with a small fraction of what the property's potential might be, because they would have to spend their money to prove it. They would have to drill a lot of expensive core samples to begin to determine whether or not the site might be economically viable. This could take five or ten years if their drilling results continued to be encouraging. By that time, all the majors would know about the property and the explorer would try to sell it to an operator - maybe a major. More likely a hungry newer player.

Or, you could try to permit the site yourself and get a wildcatter crew to strip the best ore out, truck it to a mill and try to sell it for a profit. Not likely.

 

[Oroblanco]

Yup. There ya go. Mitchell is certainly one of the Typhoid Marys of this sickness.

Typhoid Marys of this "sickness"? Sheesh Steve, I really do not know what soured your milk on treasure hunting and in particular LEGENDS, but perhaps you are simply greatly disappointed from the reality not meeting your high expectations? I respectfully disagree with the way you have termed this, entirely. What is SO wrong in what Mitchell wrote? In every treasure legend, something is obviously wrong in the directions/map etc or they would not be lost. I see no "sickness" and certainly no Typhoid Mary whatsoever. If anything, Mitchell and his ilk have preserved these legends for future generations to have something to quest for, even if they have exaggerated just how rich the lost treasures and mines are. Would you have even gone looking for any of them, if not for such authors?

Real de Tayopa, while Steve's highly discouraging estimate of your options may be somewhat correct as per the large mining corporations, the alternative of seeking out some "wildcatters" as he termed it, is probably the best option, next to opening it up yourself.

 

[sdcfia]

Typhoid Marys of this "sickness"? Sheesh Steve, I really do not know what soured your milk on treasure hunting and in particular LEGENDS, but perhaps you are simply greatly disappointed from the reality not meeting your high expectations? I respectfully disagree with the way you have termed this, entirely. What is SO wrong in what Mitchell wrote? In every treasure legend, something is obviously wrong in the directions/map etc or they would not be lost. I see no "sickness" and certainly no Typhoid Mary whatsoever. If anything, Mitchell and his ilk have preserved these legends for future generations to have something to quest for, even if they have exaggerated just how rich the lost treasures and mines are. Would you have even gone looking for any of them, if not for such authors?

Real de Tayopa, while Steve's highly discouraging estimate of your options may be somewhat correct as per the large mining corporations, the alternative of seeking out some "wildcatters" as he termed it, is probably the best option, next to opening it up yourself.

That sickness falls under the broad heading of "delusional", more specifically diagnosed as "gold fever". I would recommended it as a highly motivational escape option from the increasingly depressing structure of our present society. It's a very fun rush, actually - better than drugs. I see nothing at all wrong with it. However, my constant advice for applicants to the gold fever party train is that they be rationally selective about the tickets they buy.

There's a huge difference between mixing critical thinking with your excitement (good) and just swallowing whatever wild stories you read somewhere (not so good). My particular fever dose came out of left field totally unexpectedly and yielded the best years of my life. It chose me. I'm happy as a clam about my experiences. However, I stand strongly behind this statement: if you read about a "treasure" in the public domain, you don't have a chance in hell of recovering it. It's not so much what you believe, but why you believe it. Recognize human nature for what it always has been and always will be.

As far as Don Jose's mine goes - if reality is discouraging, then so be it. I'm sure he knows the score. If he can high grade some good ore out of the place (likely his best option), great. Mining is a business, similar in ways to any other business. It's a little like selling a house. You might acquire a house worth $100,000, then place a value of $500,000 on it. You might list it for years and never get an offer more than $100,000. What's the place worth? Is someone going to spend $500,000 to buy an asset worth $100,000?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Morning SDC, I agree, this mostly has been done already. It is not a prospect, but was a working mine when the price of gold dropped . It has some hundred meters of ore blocked out. Noront gave me an almost $ 500,000 Contract for it, then they had a ceo fight, The new ceo decided on only Canadian projects instead of world wide, and reniged on their contract, there by returning the title to me. It is clear of any liens, debts, taxes paid up to date, and is wholly mine.

Approx 500 meters from a state maintained all weather road, with a parallel high power line

Even so I made almost 150.000 on the origonal deal The price dropped On Noront stock shortly after, so I kept the title, made legit money, and also acquired Noront reduced value shares on it also.

 

[sdcfia]

Morning SDC, I agree, this mostly has been done already. It is not a prospect, but was a working mine when the price of gold dropped . It has some hundred meters of ore blocked out. Noront gave me an almost $ 500,000 Contract for it, then they had a ceo fight, The new ceo decided on only Canadian projects instead of world wide, and reniged on their contract, there by returning the title to me. It is clear of any liens, debts, taxes paid up to date, and is wholly mine.

Approx 500 meters from a state maintained all weather road, with a parallel high power line

Even so I made almost 150.000 on the origonal deal The price dropped On Noront stock shortly after, so I kept the title, made legit money, and also acquired Noront reduced value shares on it also.

That's different - sounds like you're already ahead of the game. Send some letters out and see if you can reel in another explorer, using your old contract as bait. Meanwhile, get the permits and some guys to high-grade some ore for you. Unfortunately, that would be a gamble on your dime.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

sdc, no gamble, it's there, all blocked out, but" I ain got any money any mo" Family took it all But I had a good run.

Because of a labor dispute with the former operator, it has been stripped, or I would work it myself.

However my wife is the Administrador Unica - similar to CEO, from another co.-- mine -- except thst she has total power - I have been considering transfering the equipment to the Escondida in exchange for shares for the share holders. She doesn't require any type of vote for this, just her signature.

 

[sdcfia]

sdc, no gamble, it's there, all blocked out, but" I ain got any money any mo" Family took it all But I had a good run.

Because of a labor dispute with the former operator, it has been stripped, or I would work it myself.

However my wife is the Administrador Unica - similar to CEO, from another co.-- mine -- except thst she has total power - I have been considering transfering the equipment to the Escondida in exchange for shares for the share holders. She doesn't require any type of vote for this, just her signature.

What can you say, except perhaps to quote Dandy Don Meredith, "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas."

 

[Real of Tayopa]

SDC, what if's and but's are you referring to ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I have been following your saga for a number of years now, and still haven't seen the evidence of how you have concluded that your mine was a Jesuit operation. I assume your book will lead us down that trail of evidence. Is there a publication date in sight? I'm willing to keep an open mind, but was wondering how long I will have to maintain my patience, as neither of us is getting any younger.

Take care.

Joe

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe.
Because of the unverified documents written by a Jesuit who supposedly was in charge of the invatory. He is also mentioned in that 'lil' map Orozco Saludos.

Book ?what book?

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe.
Because of the unverified documents written by a Jesuit who supposedly was in charge of the invatory. He is also mentioned in that 'lil' map Orozco Saludos.

Book ?what book?


View attachment 1380032

AHEM compadre you know very well what book Cactusjumper is referring to! You have MANY folks waiting patiently for it.

I would also add that Tayopa legend has always been tied directly to Jesuits, and no other Order, even though there is evidence that the original discoverers may well have been Franciscans, their 'reign' at Tayopa was fairly brief, a year or two. As to why or how Tayopa became under Jesuit influence, we do not have the answers but perhaps it was inside of their realm as assigned by the King?

The documents turned up by Henry Flipper, which our skeptics refuse to countenance, likewise are solid proof that Tayopa was a Jesuit mission, a rather unusual case in that it also had or became a Real of Mines. As far as I could determine, this odd arrangement only occurred in one other instance (Cienega) and likewise that lost mission and Real became lost for centuries. It may have been the case that this sort of arrangement was a sort of experiment, especially considering the early dates we are talking about (approx. 1602-3 for the original discovery of the mines of Tayopa) it may not have been SO illegal as was later the case for clergy to be involved with mining.

Against this, we have no source(s) nor any tradition(s) to link Tayopa to any other Order of missionaries, nor is it ever referred to as a Spanish mining settlement which ought to be expected if it truly were Spanish or Mexican rather than being owned and run by missionaries. Remember how Rudo Ensayo specifically describes the various mining settlements as being Spanish, or in some few cases mulattos or 'gente de razon' and conversely, listing the mines associated with the Indians and their missions separately. If Tayopa were a Spanish settlement, there should be solid references to it as such.

Or are we to dismiss the legends entirely, and assign some unknown, unrecorded and un-documented Mexicans and/or Spaniards as the real owners and operators at Tayopa? We might then wonder why the sweet sounding Tayopa bells gained such fame in the west, if the entire operation was Spanish? There is reason to believe that at least a few Spanish were directly involved, as with the bell-maker (although the Tayopa inventory states the casting was done by a priest) whom may have been a Spanish settler, and it seems likely that a Spanish royal official would likely be manning the office of the Real of mines, yet there are cases where priests and "lay priests" occupied the legal (royal) offices including that of Real of Mines for some districts.

A translation of the Tayopa inventory is online at:
The Lost Mines of Tayopa

It is possible that the Tayopa group of mines was the "rich silver mines" referred to in the Bishop Palafox letter complaining against the Jesuits overweening acquisition of wealth in Mexico.

Please do continue;

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Where can we find the Henry Flipper original document you speak of?

"In partnership with another sensational western buccaneering tycoon, William Randolph Hearst, Greene sent Flipper all the way to Spain to search Spanish historical archives for clues to the mine's location. Flipper reported that his efforts yielded only minimal results. '"The only definite thing that all my researches in Spain netted was a traveling direction.'" "Black Frontiersman: The Memoirs Of Henry O. Flipper"

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the existence of the fabulous Tayopa Mine. On the other hand, I do believe the mine exists.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Where can we find the Henry Flipper original document you speak of?

"In partnership with another sensational western buccaneering tycoon, William Randolph Hearst, Greene sent Flipper all the way to Spain to search Spanish historical archives for clues to the mine's location. Flipper reported that his efforts yielded only minimal results. '"The only definite thing that all my researches in Spain netted was a traveling direction.'" "Black Frontiersman: The Memoirs Of Henry O. Flipper"

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the existence of the fabulous Tayopa Mine. On the other hand, I do believe the mine exists.

Take care,

Joe

I do not know what or where Flipper's documents or papers ended up, sorry. On the other hand we do have the transcripts available, if memory serves Dobie included it in one book of his.

to SDCFIA

Opata silver mine: Mitchell describes the ore as being only 600 ounces silver per ton at the surface, but at depth assayed at almost 6000 ounces per ton. This is rich silver ore indeed, yet is it so impossible? We know of several mines where slabs of native silver (nearly 100% pure) have been found including right in my own state here. Mitchell stated that he saw five bags of ore that the Indian owner had mined out.

La Purisma Concepcion: As I have written about this one myself, and hunted for it, I recall the ore was estimated to be one half silver and one fifth gold. In my opinion that would qualify as "fabulously rich" along with the guessed amount of forty tons of ore already mined and bagged, stored inside the mine.

Virgin of Guadelupe mine: Mitchell includes the fabulous treasure which list originates from the Molina document, which most have decided is a fake. Other than this he simply states the mine is "fabulously rich".

Lost Escalante mine: Mitchell opens with "fabulously rich mine" and later states it is "one of the richest gold mines ever discovered in Pimeria Alta". Just how rich "fabulous" is, of course in the eye of the reader.

La Esmeralda: Mitchell does not state how rich the mine is, only that it is a "rich silver mine"; he adds the treasure from San Xavier del Bac which he estimates as worth $60,000 as being hidden in the mine.

Carreta Canyon treasure and mine: Mitchell says a "piece of silver ore assaying thousands of ounces of silver per ton" was found, which might be a clue to lead to a "fabulously rich silver mine and a great treasure" stored inside. Further in the story, Mitchell states that the entire treasure was loaded into a single ox cart drawn by two oxen. This would indeed still be a great treasure in my opinion, but let us not magnify a single ox cart load into trainloads of treasure either.

I suspect that some of this "sickness" occurs in the eye of the reader, by reading these words and then imagining an even greater treasure or richer mine than is even being described. The reality is certain to fall short of expectations set too high.

 

[sdcfia]

Cactusjumper's quote: "In partnership with another sensational western buccaneering tycoon, William Randolph Hearst, Greene sent Flipper all the way to Spain to search Spanish historical archives for clues to the mine's location..."

I do not know what or where Flipper's documents or papers ended up, sorry. On the other hand we do have the transcripts available, if memory serves Dobie included it in one book of his.

[ ]

I suspect that some of this "sickness" occurs in the eye of the reader, by reading these words and then imagining an even greater treasure or richer mine than is even being described. The reality is certain to fall short of expectations set too high.

Spanish archives for a Jesuit Mine. Huh.

Dobie was a folklorist, and a good one. He was only an "historian" by virtue of his accumulation of the old stories, but can't relied on as a factual source. WRH is an interesting connection, but his father and benefactor George Hearst is much more interesting, IMO, vis a vis mining and especially treasure legends - notably in the Pinos Altos - Santa Rita region.

Mitchell estimates this. Mitchell reports that. Mitchell says. Mitchell must have had killer information. I may be wrong, but Mitchell sounds more like a propagandist that another "historian."