JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sdcfia]

[Quotes from two posts]

Just another report crediting the Jesuits as the pioneer miners of Arizona. Where are the reports of Spanish miners?

Who or whom were the miners that left the mines in the Santa Ritas and in a few other areas of southern Arizona, if not the people that the Indians said it was and as is reported by the Anglos who re-discovered them?

Those are two very good questions, Oro. One: where are the Spanish mining reports? If one studies mining beyond the Northern Frontier during the Spanish period - a time closely controlled by the Crown and well documented - he finds that there were few contractors who ventured into today's Southwest. These facts are at odds with all the "Spanish mining" rumors that have cluttered the pulp media since the late 19th century. I'm sure there are quite a few unrecorded examples of wildcatters and other free agents who gamed the system in Arizona, but they were primarily looking for placer, not lode deposits.

Two: the newspaper reports get the blood pumping, but like today's media, are factually error-ridden and published primarily as propaganda pieces - especially in the Anglo mining period in the Southwest. I quit on your first example when the Jesuits were credited with more mining conquests in the 1800s. See what I mean? Mix a little history with a lot of fiction and things get mighty cloudy. You would be better served using Mining Journal publications for historical references, but you have to be careful with those too.

So, where did the mines originate that the early Anglos fell into? Without better evidence, all we can do is speculate, and I prefer to guess using logical assumptions. The Anglos began arriving during and particularly following the Civil War. One obvious answer to your question is that the Anglos were finding Franciscan mines, although I'm not sold on this idea. Mexican Independence, for all practical purposes, began ca 1800. That's about 50 years - two generations - of opportunity for Mexican miners to roam unregulated looking for minerals in the Southwest before the US took over the territory. Very little if any of this activity is officially recorded (registrations, permits, etc), although we see evidence of it all over the primary mineral district in southern NM. I imagine the same goes in AZ. The so-called Peralta mines in the Superstitions comes to mind offhand, which are rumored to have been rich and exploited up until the 1840s. To me, it's likely the early Anglos were rediscovering undocumented Mexican workings, some many decades old and erroneously attributed to Jesuits because, well, that's what the newspapers said.

As far as the natives' reports, I don't necessarily accept at face value what prisoners of war tell later masters about their history. Nor do I necessarily rely on interpreters' presentations. I don't reject this stuff out of hand, but it's prudent to be cautious, IMO. As I've stated before, I accept that the Jesuits likely engaged in limited, modest and easy mining in AZ for the purpose of creating church adornments and possibly accumulating pocket money for trade purposes. I don't see any reason to accept the treasure magazine rumors of mondo-rich hidden mines and massive caches from those mines. With proof otherwise, of course, I would change my opinion.

 

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[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

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[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

OH YEAH, I WILL BE MEASURING ALL OF THE MEASUREMENTS WITH A SPANISH BURGOS LAW VARA TAPE AND STAFF. THE BURGOS LAW SENT THE MEASUREMENTS FOR THE VARA TO THE NEW WORLD TO KEEP EVERYTHING REGULATED. EACH VARA HAD THREE FEET CALLED PIES... EACH PIE HAD 16 DEDOS (FINGER WIDTHS) THESE MEASUREMENTS ADD UP VERY CLOSE TO THE MEASUREMENTS MADE WITH PULGATTOS WHICH WAS THE THUMB'S WIDTH. THE PROBLEM WITH THEM IS THAT THERE TOO MANY DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS FOR THE WIDTH OF THE THUMB. I WILL HAVE TO LOOK UP THE WEB SITE THAT EXPLAINS THIS, BUT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO TO ARGUE ABOUT. ( ABOUT THE THICKNESS OF A THUMBNAIL PER PIE.

WEB PAGE IS:
drbronsontours.com/bronsonspanishmeasurements.html

I MADE A STAFF TO MATCH THE MEASUREMENTS AND ADDED A RIBBON TAPE AND MOUNTED IT ON AN OLDER FLY FISHING REEL, FOR EASE OF USE. I'LL TRY TO POST THE PICS IF I CAN FIND THEM THIS LATE AT NIGHT.View attachment 981598

,View attachment 981599 HANDY AS A ROPE AT A HANGIN'!

MIKEL
#/;0)~

I hope this helps.
Dr.Bronson's theories predate other formulas that I have used in the past, but is much simpler. No fractional measurements and have no specific reference to S.A.E. Other than, one vara is almost exactly 33 inches.
The difference is about the thickness of a thumbnail.

Check out his web site.

#/;0)

 

[cactusjumper]

No I sure do not know the date when the knowledge of mining became taboo, however I believe that our mutual amigo Mike has posted this in this thread some time ago.

If the slag heaps predated the arrival of the Jesuits, surely Kino would have noted them. He did mention in his own writings that Pimas had approached them before their entrada into Pimeria Alta to enquire about "buying" a Jesuit, asking how much silver it would cost, so this indicates the Indians were already aware of silver in their own country. But when we cast about for other, alternate explanations for the old mines found by the early Anglos and the associated stories they repeated from the Indians, we are left with no clear candidates.

SDCFIA as neither you nor I were there, and we have their published word, on what grounds do you wish to impeach them? Who or whom do you then propose was the owner and operators of these old mines found by the early Anglos? Remember the Spanish kept pretty good records, and there are records of Spanish mines in the southwest as we see in New Mexico. If they were not the work of the Jesuits, as the Indians told the early Anglos, and as we find definitely referred to by the Jesuits themselves (remember Segesser's letter, he complained of not being able to work the gold and silver mines, and in another letter wished he could send a "golden ball" to another padre whom had become elderly and this way the man would not have to "live in penury" indicating this golden ball must have had some sizable cash value - and of course we have the reports of Jesuit smuggling of "chocolates" which were round balls of gold covered in a layer of chocolate an inch thick.

One last thing here but as to the "secret" mines of the Jesuits, by "secret" this term is a problem because it means such different things to different people reading it. Perhaps it would be better to use a long explanation to say that these mines were NOT BEING PUBLICIZED, rather than 'secret', as we know that in other places the Jesuits were openly owning and operating mines which was clearly against Spanish law. They were hardly the only Order to be so involved either, even nuns became involved in the mining and refining business.

Is it really SO difficult to conceive that the missions of Arizona were not just raising cattle and wheat? Why do people insist that it had to be either a top-secret type operation as if it were a presidential assassination, and gigantic, immense hoards of treasures OR they had no mines or treasures? Look at what is documented - Kino mentioned sending a shipment of some 800 ounces of silver, this is nothing to sneeze at although I am sure that to some well heeled folks here on T-net that is chump change, and the impressive silver altar service at San Xavier del Bac was estimated as worth at least $40,000. Does this sounds as if it is nothing, or some vast treasure that could buy a country? I would say that the evidence points to some mining activity and almost certainly hoarding in the same region, due to the risks of shipping it AND the plot being negotiated to betray the colonies. While the padres had free manpower, it was not unlimited, some had to be herding the livestock, tending fields etc and this is exactly how the Jesuit operations are described for Paraguay where they set up their own theocratic state. Remember father Garces report that the Indians of Pimeria Alta were pleasantly surprised that the Franciscans had not arrived to act as their 'bosses'? And compare this with Segesser's letter in which he complains of having SO much to manage, so many different operations all going on at once that he had little time for the actual 'missionary' type work of making new converts, performing baptisms and marriages etc. The mission system was a vast business enterprise, with proceeds intended to flow up the chain of 'command'.

So - NOT gigantic mega-hoards of wealth so vast as to count in the trillions, nor mines that would have to look like the Lavender Pit to produce such a treasure, and not the other extreme of 'incidental' type mining by picking up a few nuggets to make into 'bling' either or we would not have the silver altar at Bac nor could Kino have shipped some 800 ounces in one load. This is only one shipment too, there almost certainly had to be more.

Who or whom were the miners that left the mines in the Santa Ritas and in a few other areas of southern Arizona, if not the people that the Indians said it was and as is reported by the Anglos who re-discovered them?

Roy,

Rudo Ensayo makes it clear that there were mines being worked illegally. There is nothing to say they were being worked by the Jesuits.

Mike puts great stock in the Jesuits vow of obedience. It is made obvious in Father Polzer's " Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain", that the Jesuits did what they felt was necessary for the survival of the missions, sometimes sacrificing their own lives.

"Whoever reads this volume should keep in mind that rules do not describe history. They are guidelines of policy and conduct. At one and the same time they denote probable conformity and possible disregard. But in any case these rules had to be reckoned with as they affected life on the mission frontier. Their publication today will not touch our lives, but should influence our interpretation of mission history." Charles W. Polzer, S.J.

Once again in the final analysis, The Jesuits were just men. As such, they all bore the same faults and weaknesses of all men. They were never perfect. There are other insights to be gleaned from reading the entire book.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Rudo Ensayo makes it clear that there were mines being worked illegally. There is nothing to say they were being worked by the Jesuits.

Mike puts great stock in the Jesuits vow of obedience. It is made obvious in Father Polzer's " Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain", that the Jesuits did what they felt was necessary for the survival of the missions, sometimes sacrificing their own lives.

"Whoever reads this volume should keep in mind that rules do not describe history. They are guidelines of policy and conduct. At one and the same time they denote probable conformity and possible disregard. But in any case these rules had to be reckoned with as they affected life on the mission frontier. Their publication today will not touch our lives, but should influence our interpretation of mission history." Charles W. Polzer, S.J.

Once again in the final analysis, The Jesuits were just men. As such, they all bore the same faults and weaknesses of all men. They were never perfect. There are other insights to be gleaned from reading the entire book.

Take care,

Joe

Well not to pick a bone with Mike over the Jesuit rules and precepts, however I have tried to present the case that the Jesuits were very far from obeying those rules and precepts, right through their history (pre-suppression) and right around the globe. Even to the point of defying the Pope, as in the case of the so-called 'Chinese Rites' that caused such an uproar in Rome. They were also not above arguing in a legalistic sense to try to get superiors to either look the other way, or grant special dispensation, as we see in the Jesuit Relations from the north country, when the Jesuits were ordered to stop trading in furs and they continued to do so, with a string of excuses to continue.

Do you NOT notice that in Rudo Ensayo, the author makes a special note to list Spanish possessions, not limited to mines but also settlements, cattle ranches etc? I did not notice this distinction for some time, but it can only be taken to mean that the mines NOT listed as Spanish then are almost certainly the property of the missions. This would fit with Segesser's letters too, and also how Kino could ship a fair load of silver in one batch at such an early point in the development of the missions. If those illegal mines are NOT the property of the missions, then why did the author bother to mention when certain mines were Spanish? By the way, do you not find it just slightly odd that the U of A site which has an online copy of Rudo Ensayo in English, would suddenly decide to eliminate the chapter describing the Jesuit missions, and then re-number the chapters to apparently cover it up?


SDCFIA wrote

To me, it's likely the early Anglos were rediscovering undocumented Mexican workings, some many decades old and erroneously attributed to Jesuits because, well, that's what the newspapers said.

Decades old? That would not fit very well the descriptions of what the early Anglos reportedly found in the old Jesuit mines - namely that the mines appeared to be VERY old. The slag heaps for instance had huge trees growing on top of them, which were estimated to be "at least" 100 years old. Also based on what we have seen elsewhere in Mexico, it is likely that the padres might have complained about Mexicans 'poaching' in "their" domains. But to just say "unknown Mexicans" working "undocumented mines" is not at all supported by the records we do have, scant though they are and this includes newspapers.

　
SDCFIA also wrote

As far as the natives' reports, I don't necessarily accept at face value what prisoners of war tell later masters about their history.

Prisoners of war? What war? What prisoners? The Indians responsible for the majority of the Jesuit stories did not fight any war with the Americans, and in fact were quite friendly and on good terms. If anything they viewed the arriving Americans as allies. Please explain how the Pimas, Maricopas and Papagoes were in any way "prisoners of war" to the Americans, thanks in advance.

Your dismissive view of all newspaper reports as wildly inaccurate and untrustworthy are not shared by all. In fact newspaper articles are considered legal evidence in a court of law. Don't take my word on that, look it up. No doubt newspaper accounts get details wrong or sometimes garbled, especially when the author does not know what he is writing about (an example not knowing the difference between lode and placer) but overall their accuracy is nowhere near so doubtful as you insist. You are certainly welcome to view all newspaper accounts as utterly worthless, however were we in a civil court, those same newspaper articles would be considered fairly solid evidence.

To Deducer - I am fairly certain (not 100%) that this book:
https://books.google.com/books?id=6..., english, chili&pg=PA349#v=onepage&q&f=false

is one of the sources that discusses the Dutch, English and Jesuits and the then-ongoing international struggle to seize Spanish America, and the Jesuits willingness to help the enemies of the Spanish. I did not have time to hunt up the exact page, my apologies, but it is an interesting peek into the intrigues and maneuvering of that day. Not many people today would imagine the Dutch to have come so close to conquering most of South America away from the Spanish and Portuguese in the 1700s, right in that same time window when the Jesuits suddenly started getting expelled from so many places for their political intrigues. I do wonder if the Crown did not get wind of these treasonous machinations?

To all, I may not have the time to post much after tonight, perhaps tomorrow night so if you wish a detailed or long reply (one might wonder WHY anyone would want to wade through one of my long winded blathers? ) it may be several weeks before I can do so.

Please do continue;
Oroblanco


　
　
　
　

 

[deducer]

Two: the newspaper reports get the blood pumping, but like today's media, are factually error-ridden and published primarily as propaganda pieces - especially in the Anglo mining period in the Southwest. I quit on your first example when the Jesuits were credited with more mining conquests in the 1800s. See what I mean? Mix a little history with a lot of fiction and things get mighty cloudy. You would be better served using Mining Journal publications for historical references, but you have to be careful with those too.

Frontier Mining Days in Southwestern New Mexico by Dale Collins (1955) contains the following statement (page 5):



You are correct that newspapers continually contain factual errors and are manipulative (even much more so today, in shamelessly manipulating the election process). However, when you get a repetitive pattern, you have to think there must be some truth to it.

Even if Dale Collins is found to be in error or to have embellished, what he states has been repeated far too often by a variety of source and authors to be considered complete fiction, or rejected outright.

 

[deducer]

To all, I may not have the time to post much after tonight, perhaps tomorrow night so if you wish a detailed or long reply (one might wonder WHY anyone would want to wade through one of my long winded blathers? ) it may be several weeks before I can do so.

Roy, I enjoy reading through your "long winded blathers" so please DO continue with them.

Do me a favor and stop thinking that your blather is useless. That is just not true.

 

[sdcfia]

...
Prisoners of war? What war? What prisoners? The Indians responsible for the majority of the Jesuit stories did not fight any war with the Americans, and in fact were quite friendly and on good terms. If anything they viewed the arriving Americans as allies. Please explain how the Pimas, Maricopas and Papagoes were in any way "prisoners of war" to the Americans, thanks in advance.

The natives were victims of the Jesuits' original appropriation of their sovereignty, by whatever means it occurred. Whether or not they were made "slave miners" on a large scale, or were merely forced to tend crops, swallow the new religion and support their new masters, their former lives, freedoms and beliefs were forever changed. Such is life on earth, I guess. When the Jesuits left, the Franciscans came. There were Spanish to deal with, and Mexicans, and Apaches, then Americans. I worked on probably 90% of all the native reservations in AZ and NM in the 80s and 90s (Maricopas and Pimas, yes, but not the Papagos), and have friends on a few of the others on a social basis. It's true that time mediates bad feelings, but many, many natives still consider that they are living in concentration camps at the behest of their American "friends." The current ND events are the latest example of how we feel about native rights.

Your dismissive view of all newspaper reports as wildly inaccurate and untrustworthy are not shared by all. In fact newspaper articles are considered legal evidence in a court of law. Don't take my word on that, look it up. No doubt newspaper accounts get details wrong or sometimes garbled, especially when the author does not know what he is writing about (an example not knowing the difference between lode and placer) but overall their accuracy is nowhere near so doubtful as you insist. You are certainly welcome to view all newspaper accounts as utterly worthless, however were we in a civil court, those same newspaper articles would be considered fairly solid evidence.
...

Newspaper (and all media, for that matter) reports cannot be relied on for accuracy or trustworthiness. Wildly so at times, but more subtlety most of the time. I don't consider all reports utterly worthless, but usually at least partially worthless - for many reasons. Your results may vary.

 

[sdcfia]

Frontier Mining Days in Southwestern New Mexico by Dale Collins (1955) contains the following statement (page 5):

View attachment 1371481

You are correct that newspapers continually contain factual errors and are manipulative (even much more so today, in shamelessly manipulating the election process). However, when you get a repetitive pattern, you have to think there must be some truth to it.

Even if Dale Collins is found to be in error or to have embellished, what he states has been repeated far too often by a variety of source and authors to be considered complete fiction, or rejected outright.

Collins says, "... This priesthood is supposed to have thoroughly prospected the southwest ..." His choice of the word "supposed" (generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so) may be revealing. Also, his statement that seems to include NM along with the Jesuits' AZ activities has little support that I'm aware of. I've never denied Jesuit mining activities in AZ - but I've strongly questioned their scope, vis-a-vis the pulp legends. We do have some pretty interesting circumstantial evidence, but not many telling facts - so Collins and many others have to rely on various degrees of speculation.

 

[cactusjumper]

The natives were victims of the Jesuits' original appropriation of their sovereignty, by whatever means it occurred. Whether or not they were made "slave miners" on a large scale, or were merely forced to tend crops, swallow the new religion and support their new masters, their former lives, freedoms and beliefs were forever changed. Such is life on earth, I guess. When the Jesuits left, the Franciscans came. There were Spanish to deal with, and Mexicans, and Apaches, then Americans. I worked on probably 90% of all the native reservations in AZ and NM in the 80s and 90s (Maricopas and Pimas, yes, but not the Papagos), and have friends on a few of the others on a social basis. It's true that time mediates bad feelings, but many, many natives still consider that they are living in concentration camps at the behest of their American "friends." The current ND events are the latest example of how we feel about native rights.



Newspaper (and all media, for that matter) reports cannot be relied on for accuracy or trustworthiness. Wildly so at times, but more subtlety most of the time. I don't consider all reports utterly worthless, but usually at least partially worthless - for many reasons. Your results may vary.

Steve,

I agree with most of what you say. The Native Americans under the Jesuits were allowed to work their own fields for half of the day. Prior to the Jesuit's coming, it was normal for them to go thru periods of famine and starvation. Their work at the missions made them put aside food for those times when normal hunting and gathering could not provide enough.

The old ways had to give way to the pressures of the powerful. That was not true for only the Native Americans, but held true for the entire world. It's how science and medicine progressed to what it is today and who knows where it will go tomorrow. While we may admire their free life of the past, few of us could live that way today. Survival of the fittest has been proven time and time again to be the best rule for mankind.

Nice posts,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

As for Guevavi, it was founded by Kino and Salvatierra in 1691. By the late 1690s, the mission consisted of a church, a carpentry shop, and a blacksmiths's area. By the 1770s, it had been abandoned. Franciscans arrived in 1768.

The Precept that "No one will possess knowledge about mining either directly or indirectly......." was set down by Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga in 1699.

Would you say that it was, at least, possible that some smelting may have taken place prior to 1699?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[Oroblanco]

First point - the slag found at the missions; while one might propose this to have been from iron working, the fact that the slag which was hauled away and re-smelted for its silver content, the only source we have on it stated was some 8 ounces of silver per ton, is fair proof that it was in fact silver smelting. This is at least what one expert states, when we find more than 100 parts per million silver is clear proof of silver smelting, and eight ounces would equate to over 240 ppm. So the slag is solid proof of silver smelting, which either had been done before the arrival of the Franciscans 1768, or they themselves did it, in which case it was padres just not Jesuits.

<Cactusjumper wrote>

Roy,

As for Guevavi, it was founded by Kino and Salvatierra in 1691. By the late 1690s, the mission consisted of a church, a carpentry shop, and a blacksmiths's area. By the 1770s, it had been abandoned. Franciscans arrived in 1768.

The Precept that "No one will possess knowledge about mining either directly or indirectly......." was set down by Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga in 1699.

Would you say that it was, at least, possible that some smelting may have taken place prior to 1699?

Take care,

Joe

Yes it is possible, yet this would mean that the Jesuits almost immediately set to work locating the mines, getting them into operation and smelting. This is not impossible, neither would it account for 300,000 tons of ore removed from a single mine, and there are a number of mines discovered in the Santa Ritas. Also remember that the king of Spain had issued repeated edicts against ALL clergy having mines and mining, over centuries of time, including long before the arrival of Jesuits in Pimeria.

We can theorize any number of other possible candidates as the owners/operators of the ancient mines found by the early Anglo Americans, yet we have no kind of documentation to support these alternate theories. On the other hand we have numerous sources that state these old mines were the work of the Jesuits. Including, in a small way, from the Jesuits themselves.

While it may be true that the Pimas, Maricopas, etc did end up losing their tribal lifestyles and even to a degree their culture and language, being "Forced" to accept to Spanish and Catholic ways, remember this was not a hostile invasion by the Spanish at all, the Indians themselves literally INVITED the Jesuits to come and help them. One might see their reasoning as well, for their existence involved a pattern of feast and famine, witch doctors for medicine (some of which were of course effective, others not so much) etc. They had seen how the Opatas were living, with Jesuit padres directing their lives and villages. Later they did repent of their invitation to the point of armed rebellions, yet let us not start re-painting this part of history as if the Spanish invaded and forced the Indians to become Christians at sword point, as did happen in other places. This makes the idea of hateful Indians under the thumb of the invaders telling them "what they wanted to hear" rather unbelievable, especially when you review just how the contacts between Pimas and Americans actually played out. It was NOT by any definition a hostile exchange, and in fact you can find the local Americans fighting to help the Pimas against Washington's dictates and land grabs. An example comes to mind in the Pimas showing Dr John Walker the Vekol mine, as a repayment in a way, for his work on their behalf. Hardly the cowed 'slaves' just conforming to the wishes of conquerors. Let us not conflate the history of the Apaches or Navajos with the Pimas, Maricopas, Opatas and others that literally welcomed the missionaries. I do not doubt that many modern people view the whole as if their ancestors suffered the same way as some of the more resistant tribal peoples, yet the truth is far more complicated.

Please do continue amigos, may not be able to reply for a few weeks of course. I hope to see some of you at the rendezvous, God willing and the crick don't rise that is. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco





　

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Which of my pictures of two slag piles above looks like what would have been found at Guevavi?

Actually, many of the tribes begged for priests to be sent to live with them.

Perhaps illegal mining was being done by.....others, and they were bringing their ore to the missions foundry to be processed. This would have been prior to the precept of 1699.

You may be right about the slag found at Guevavi, but I don't really see anything more than a story. Who got rich working the slag?

Have a safe trip.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe, no one "got rich" working the slag, it was simply a relatively easy way for someone to have made some money.

I do not have a sample of the slag from Guevavi, nor Tumacacori; I know someone that does, and I have seen it, I would say it more closely resembles the bottom photo but not exactly either. I do have silver slag here somewhere, and it is black, although not from either mission so would not necessarily look the same. Most of the mines of the Santa Ritas, although mined for the silver content, to look at them you would think they are copper mines due to the copper minerals.

I would suggest a visit to the old Salero mine. When you stand at the mine, then tell yourself that it is "just a story". Otherwise we have a fairly clear case as to whom was responsible for the early mining in Arizona, and it was not some mystery Mexicans nor Spaniards nor French or Vikings. The sources (all old) are pretty much universal in stating the mining was done by the Jesuits. If not to abuse the use of the term, we have a clear "chain of evidence" - circumstantial in many aspects yes, yet other, alternate explanations have little or nothing to support them as theories. What is more likely, that we have here in southern Arizona, a whole string of (mostly) silver mines, that were all MISTAKENLY identified as being the work of the Jesuits, due largely to the Indians and allegedly documents found at the missions, OR that they are the work of unknown Mexicans and/or Spaniards?

 

[Oroblanco]

For those whom are reading this LONG discussion, when we state that the OLD sources are almost universal (have to qualify that statement, because although I have yet to find any OLD source that attributes the early mines of Arizona to any Mexicans or Spaniards except at Planchas de Plata, some source might yet turn up) in stating that the Jesuits were the pioneer miners of Arizona, these are some of the sources:

Jesuit historian Father Polzer, highly respected as an expert in the history of Arizona, cited for his recording of Jesuit rules and precepts against mining and business for profit, as well as openly admitting of two instances where Jesuit priests were caught mining and punished for it.

The Royal Geographic Society, respected worldwide for their expertise

The Arizona Bureau of Mines,

Two Governors of Arizona Territory

Jesuit Father Och, and I would point out to you that he was perfectly SAFE when he was writing his memoirs, as he was then in Europe not Sonora

Jesuit Father Nentvig, whose Rudo Ensayo is one of the very few sources we have with good and fairly accurate descriptions of the settlements, mines and geography of the region as it was in the 1760's

Catholic Bishop Palafox, whose letters of complaint against the Jesuits were largely supported by Pope Innocent

The US Superintendant of Mining Statistics

The official history of the City of Guanajuato, Mexico

The internet version history of the city of Pozos, Mexico

Jesuit Father Keller's letter to Father Stiger, reporting on his hiding church valuables

Father Hernando de Cabrero, Visitor on keeping certain communications secret

Photos of various Jesuit churches in the Americas, showing beautiful and rich ornamentation, including one with seven tons of gold

The King of Spain's order expelling the Jesuits

Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga repeating the rule against Jesuits mining

Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia repeating the rule against Jesuits mining

Father Alonso de Arrivillaga instructing Jesuits to burn incriminating letters and documents

Thomas Edward Farish, Arizona historian

The public internet site for the city of Cananea, Mexico

A photo of huge furnaces for smelting of silver in Mexico built by Jesuits

Author Robert Cooper West, discovered ONE case of Jesuits mining and assumed it was unique

The internet page on Jesuits in the city of San Luis de la Paz, Mexico

The US Bureau of Statistics, Treasury Department

Mining magazine: devoted to mines, mining operations, metallurgy & c, Volume 8, 1857

Official report upon the mines, mining, metallurgy and mining laws, &c., &c ...
By Henry Davis Hoskold, Argentina. Dirección General MINING AND CIVIL ENGINEER CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL OFFICES OF MINES AND GEOLOGY, reported on many Jesuit mines and included a direct translation of a Jesuit-owned mining claim document.

A report written by a pirate who actually served with Captain Morgan telling of the church riches, The Buccaneers of America, in the original English translation of 1684, by John Esquemeling

Father Alonso de Arrivillaga & Father Provincial Joseph de Arjo

CMK Paulison, Arizona promoter and historian

Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris <Jesuit Relations, letter from Jesuit on delightful profits they are making which are in direct opposition to the rule against their trade in furs>

Jesuit Father Gravier reporting on his prospecting for mines

Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, a highly respected source I will point out

Ex-jesuit Paul Hoensbroech (Graf von), for his letter of Bishop Palafox and for Jesuit wealth discovered on their arrests and expulsions in Europe

Memoirs of Saint-Simon

Journal of the American Geographical Society of New York

Johannes Janssen, German historian

Jesuit Ernest J. Burrus, editor of Ducrue's account of the Jesuits expulsion from CA

Jesuit Father Baegert, for his reporting that the Jesuits were indeed accused of mining

The Jesuit Relation for 1659 Sent to Reverend Father Claude Boucher, Provincial of the Province of France. reporting on the discovery of a gold vein which the Jesuits kept their lay workmen from by pretending it was "brass" which would not occur in nature that way

Harper's Magazine, highly respected for their Civil War coverage

The resources of Arizona: its mineral, farming, and grazing lands, towns ...
By Patrick Hamilton, Arizona. Legislative Assembly 1881

The New York Times

Frank S. Ingalls Report to Congress of 1906

Reports from the consuls of the United States, Issues 81-84
By United States. Bureau of Foreign Commerce, 1887

Bishop Antonio de los Reyes <ornaments in the missions as you found them after Jesuit expulsion>

The hand-book to Arizona: its resources, history, towns, mines, ruins and ...
By Richard Josiah Hinton 1878

New Mexico, her natural resources and attractions: By Elias Brevoort, 1874, self-published but with excellent sources listed in his preface

The US Forest Service for their definition of mining

Papal Bull Dominus ac Redemptor signed by Pope Clement XIV

The National Park Service (holds many interesting Jesuit and Spanish colonial documents)

New Advent.org a Catholic run website, historical data on Jesuit punishments for Indians

Codelco Chile Corporation (a mining company which owns a former Jesuit mine in Chile)

Martin Hunter, former official of the Hudson Bay Company

A candid history of the Jesuits By Joseph McCabe

History of the north Mexican states, Volume 1 By Hubert Howe Bancroft, Henry Lebbeus Oak, Joseph Joshua Peatfield, William Nemos

Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana,Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla

The history of California By Franklin Tuthill, SAN FRANCISCO HH BANCROFT & COMPANY 1866

Ecuador: its ancient and modern history, topography and natural resources ... By Charles Reginald Enock,NEW YORK 1914

History of the Jesuits: from the foundation of their society to ..., Volume 1 By Andrew Steinmetz, pp 421 PHILADELPHIA LEA AND BLANCHARD 1848

"Jesuit Saints and Blesseds" a website OF the Society of Jesus

Mindat.org, an internet database of mines around the world

COUNTY RESOURCE SERIES No 1 SEPT 26 1916 SANTA CRUZ COUNTY ARIZONA THE OLDEST MINING REGION OF RECORD ON THE PACIFIC OF THE UNITED STATES By Allen T Bird University of Arizona

Mission Guevavi excavation by William J. Robinson, published in the KIVA, vol 42, No. 2. 1976

Luz de Tierra Incognita by Spanish Captain Juan Mateo Manje, who accompanied Father Kino on some of his explorations
Jesuit Father and now Saint Eusebio Kino

The Bankers' magazine, and statistical register, Volume 32 Arizona and Silver Mining, George R Gibson April 1878

Reverend Victor B. Stoner's 1937 Thesis, titled "THE SPANISH MISSIONS OF THE SANTA CRUZ VALLEY."

New Handy Atlas By McNally and Co Rand, Rand McNally and Company, Chigaco and New York, 1892

Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the LETTER from THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY by United States Dept of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond, United States Commissioner of Mining Statistics, GEO S BOUTWELL Secretary of the Treasury 1871

Terry's Mexico: handbook for travellers, SONORA NEWS COMPANY Callé de las Estaciones 12 Mexico City Mexico T. Philip Terry, 1911

A letter from Captain Juan Bautista de Anza to Bishop Benito Crespo, January 7, 1737

Modern History being a continuation of the Universal History Volume 39

By George Sale, George Psalmanazar, Archibald Bower, George Shelvocke, John Campbell, John Swinton, London 1763

The letters of father Segesser from Pimeria Alta, perhaps the most 'dammin' as he explicitly complained about not being able to work the gold and silver mines making budget problems.

Against these, we have numerous MODERN sources that are virtually unanimous in claiming there were NO Jesuit mines and certainly no treasures, no slaves nor enslavement of local Indians. I hold that the older sources are almost always more trustworthy than newer (younger) sources, on the basis of being closer in time to the actual events, and with less opportunities for errors or deliberate falsehoods to have crept into the history.

Please do continue;

 

[Oroblanco]

PS WHOOPS forgot this one:
The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, 1670-1767, James D. Riley, a Catholic study and lists several mines owned OPENLY by the Jesuits, although this was expressly illegal. No notice was taken of any of the mines of Pimeria nor several others.

 

[sdcfia]

I would expect the old silver slags to be dark and shinier, maybe even a little ripply/bubbly if the smelting was done well. That top photo looks more like slag from steel ore. The bottom photo looks more like silver ore than slag - or crushed limestone.

 

[sdcfia]

For those whom are reading this LONG discussion, when we state that the OLD sources are almost universal (have to qualify that statement, because although I have yet to find any OLD source that attributes the early mines of Arizona to any Mexicans or Spaniards except at Planchas de Plata, some source might yet turn up) in stating that the Jesuits were the pioneer miners of Arizona, these are some of the sources:

[Comprehensive list of publications]

Against these, we have numerous MODERN sources that are virtually unanimous in claiming there were NO Jesuit mines and certainly no treasures, no slaves nor enslavement of local Indians. I hold that the older sources are almost always more trustworthy than newer (younger) sources, on the basis of being closer in time to the actual events, and with less opportunities for errors or deliberate falsehoods to have crept into the history.

Please do continue;

That's a terrific bibliography, Oro. Anybody with a desire to educate themselves on the subject ought to thank you for it.

We've pretty much all conceded that these sources, and probably more, provide a number of opinions that the Jesuits were involved in mining in AZ, at least to some degree. What we don't have is any evidence to support the pulp legends that specifically list several the exceedingly rich mines by name and provide inventory lists of huge caches of precious metals - all of which, with great effort, were cunningly hidden and then apparently abandoned and forgotten.

I confess that I won't take the time to read all this material, but let me ask you - do any of these sources discuss the specific flagship mines/caches that we've heard so many great things about? The provenance of these treasure tales, and many others not of Jesuit origin, is a great curiosity. I understand how typical people can get excited about these alleged treasures, based on the Jesuits' reputations (valid or not), but most of the furor seems to have come strictly from the media, or from alleged "documents" that surfaced to discuss the caches. My contention has always been that if these hoards were real, they were either recovered by their owners long ago, or they never existed to begin with. I tend to lean towards the latter, but with a stronger argument to the contrary, I would certainly change my tune.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

That's an impressive list, very impressive. I have a number of those publications and have read many of the magazine articles. Here's my argument against Jesuit treasure:

In the 249 years since the expulsion, no one has found the treasures of the Jesuit Southwest. This despite the soldiers who managed the expulsion, searching every nook and cranny in the missions. This would include searching the sewage pits. They found no treasures, no mines or signs of mining. In the following 249 years no subsequent treasure hunters have ever found a mine or treasure that could be authenticated as belonging to the Jesuit Order in Mexico or the Southwest, despite having advance scientific tools to detect such treasures.


On the other hand, there is good evidence that the Jesuits owned a few, very few, mines.

The first (15) Jesuits arrived in Veracruz in 1572. I believe the first precept against mining, or knowledge of mining, came along 127 years later. I could be wrong on that time period, as my mind don't work so well lately. If someone has a date for the mining precept that is earlier than 1699, please correct me.

Take care,

Joe