JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[KXMember]

Sounds about right

 

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[weekender]

View attachment 1179995View attachment 1179996View attachment 1179999View attachment 1180000View attachment 1180001View attachment 1180002View attachment 1180004

Wow!
So much for the old pick & shovel method.
Thanks for the pixs.
-Weekender

 

[KXMember]

Wow!
So much for the old pick & shovel method.
Thanks for the pixs.
-Weekender

Those were used too lol
Some of these sites can be 50-1800ft deep. By all means grab the shovel lol

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

They absolutely were here in the SW, NM included. Jesuits were relocating and opening ancient sites.

Now thats what i like hearing, with the help of some very smart well paid mercenary engineers,like Templars,Masons. There still here,hidden about. Its easy enough to see the ancients work on up to the modern works. Iam sure alot of groups have them marked. Iam sure they didnt get them all. I believe, there's alot out there to be found.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Heres a site i believe, that has a church's treasure and documents hidden here. I believe you could probably see the church mission from here, down in the desert. Is it Jesuit?
Dont know, till i get to see the goods. View attachment 1184548

 

[Scorch]

Hi All !!

Am finishing up a biography of Juan Bautista Anza which I have found to be highly illuminating. Wondering if anyone is interested in some excerpts from it?

Thanks,

Scorch

 

[deducer]

Hi All !!

Am finishing up a biography of Juan Bautista Anza which I have found to be highly illuminating. Wondering if anyone is interested in some excerpts from it?

Thanks,

Scorch

I would!

 

[Shortfinger]

I would!

Ditto.

JB

 

[gollum]

Juan Bautista de Anza was a very interesting guy. He went with Father Kino on most of his entradas. Just don't confuse the father and son of the same name!

A very interesting thing happened to him, that shows how it was not wise to cast any aspersions on the Jesuit Order in those days. He was a General at the time. He sent a letter to his boss complaining that the Jesuits were spending so much time with the Indians, that they were neglecting their duties to the Spaniards and Gente de Razon. Shortly after that, the renowned General Juan Bautista de Anza found himself in jail for over a year.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi All !!

Am finishing up a biography of Juan Bautista Anza which I have found to be highly illuminating. Wondering if anyone is interested in some excerpts from it?

Thanks,

Scorch

Add me to your waiting list!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Natch, Oro de Tayopa

 

[Scorch]

Okay,

These are things that stood out to me in light of previous conversations here at this forum/thread. Hope some will find it useful, advance apologies for being so long!

I ordered this off amazon as a cheap used paperback, it is stamped 'Pima County Public Library' inside the front cover. The full title runs: Juan Bautista de Anza; Basque Explorer in the New World 1693 - 1740. By Donald T. Garate.

So here goes:

- He was born in Hernani in Spain. Pg. 11. ..."In 1141 King Garcia Ramirez IV granted the title "Lastaola" (55) to a family in Hernani, ... Hernani already held an oral title of villa, or 'town with special priveleges.' ... One of these was universal hidalguia. Hijos dalg, literally 'sons of something', were the middle nobility, (59) and everyone in the Basque region of the kingdom of Castilla was guaranteed that privilege by the reaffirmation in 1272 of the Fuero Viejo, (60) This status was reaffirmed by most of the kings of Castilla and later,beginning with the Catholic monarchs, Fernando and Isabel, by the rulers of a united Spain. ... signature thus executed constituted a title of nobility and guaranteed certain priveleges that the signer fully understood but never confused with his Basque name.

(59) The upper nobility were the 'Caballeros"or 'Rico Hombres", and the lower nobility were the 'infanziones'. See Bard, Navarra,p.44,: Garate, "Basque Names", pp.81 - 86; and Alberto Santana, Baserria(Donostia: Gipuzkoako Foru Aldunia, 1993), p. 10


- pg. 55 : ..." It was from the missions that the mines purchased much of their food, such as corn, beans, wheat, and dried meat."

- pg. 59 : ..." ...especially considering the fact that the miners of Sonora had not as yet, developed the technique of extracting the ore by using black powder."

- pg. 60 : ..."The repartimiento system was still in effect in Sonora whereby 4 percent of the mission Indians could be worked in the mines at a minimum wage for two weeks. These conscripted Indian work crews... were escorted to and from the work site by a trusted mission Indian known as a topil. ... However there was much room for abuse within the system, and many of the mine owners exploited it to its fullest... The Jesuit missionaries were adamantly opposed to the repartimiento system, largely because of such excesses... It is a known fact that Anza and Ibarburu were avid supporters of the Jesuits and the missions, as were most basques. (42) ... Besides the repartimiento system, which could not draw from missions or visitas with fewer than 100 adults, was already over taxed in its efforts to supply workers for the northern mines at Bacanuchi, Basochuca, and Nacozari.

(42) Inigo de Loyola, Fransisco Javier, and other founders of the Jesuit order were Basque. ... One Basque historian has said, "through the origin of its founders.. the Company of Jesus occupied an impeccable position in the heart of Basque society, which played an important roll in its historical development. See Tomas Uribeetxeberria Maiztegi, Jesusen Lagundia Bizkaian (Bilbo: Bizkaiko Foru Artxibategiko Erakustarteoa, 1991)


- pg. 67 : ... 'Captain Don Antonio Bezerra Nieto, presently of the royal Presidio of San Felipe y Santiago de Janos, alcalde mayor of the jurisdiction of San Antonio de Casas Grandes, and general visiting judge in this province of Sonora for His majesty our sovereign:

While engaged in the general inspection ordered by my superiors in the government of this province of Sonora in this mining district of Our Lady of Guadalupe, its environs and adjuncts, it has been reported to me that a number of miners have several different mines without the people to excavate and work them for the better part of the year and that taking workers from some to work the others benefits neither the ones nor the others.

For this reason and that of wishing to support all of them at once so that none could claim to be cheated, production has been cut, to the detriment of His Majesties Royal Fifth, whereas it could be increased if each mine were worked continuously, This benefit could be achieved by concentrating the work in some mines, while the rest could be worked by persons who have discontinued doing so, either from disregard or ignorance of the applicable royal orders in this particular. Thus, this threat to the common good is added to the other things that look to me for necessary remedy.

For that reason I said I should order, and I do hereby order, that those miners must comply with the ordinance number thirty-seven, and punctually and promptly populate their mines with at least four persons to work them. It is to be understood by those unable to provide the competent number of diggers to work and improve their mines as asked, they must forfeit them so that the royal income may be augmented. On the contrary, violation of the said law under pretext is not justified by the Royal Will. I made it clear to all that any person could freely denounce the said mines, and nobody could impede him or unjustly prevent a hearing. such action shall carry a penalty of 500 pesos to be levied, which, from this time forth, shall be divided, half to go to the Royal treasury of His Majesty and half to the local court for the expenses of restitution.

The latter is because some of the residents are vexed that some persons without license or consent, drive off their mules and horses. These persons steal and kill their cattle with impunity, and others carry knives. The use of this weapon has led to disturbances that resulted in serious wounds. For this reason and due to the present mood, I have decreed that from now on no one of whatever class, quality, or condition, be they Spaniards, Mulatos, Negros, Coyotes, Mestizos, Indians - all present inhabitants of this mining camp and its environs - will be allowed to carry knives or machetes, either displayed or concealed, on pain of losing said arms, and that any minister of His Majesty may disarm them and proceed against the recalcitrant individuals and transgressors in this manner:

For Spaniards, for the first offense, they shall lose the said weapon and pay ten pesos toward the Most Holy Sacrament. For the second offense, twenty pesos in silver, as it is said, and for the third offense fifty pesos toward building a public jail in this mining camp, seeing there is fitting need for its completion.

For Mulatos, Negroes, Mestizos, and Indians, whether slave or free, the first time his weapon shall be confiscated and he shall spend fifteen days with his head in stocks. For second offense, the weapon shall be hung around his neck while he is given fifty blows with a cane. For the third offense, six months in the Presidio of Corodeguauchi of this province without any salary, serving His Majesty for the said time. A Spaniard, if caught with a stolen beast or a stolen and slaughtered beef in a state of being half-eaten, as proven by an investigation of the Real Justica, shall be condemned to three months in said presidio. Others who are not Spaniards shall be sentenced to six months in the said presidio in order to cut down on such offenses.

At the same time I am ordering that all the present residents of this mining camp appear together before me on the twenty-fourth of present month to pass muster with their arms and ammunition, in order to see whether they comply with the orders given by the superior government. This edict that serves as a decree and proclamation is published in this mining camp and brought to the notice of the public as they depart from High Mass on the twenty-third so that the news will pass from those in attendance to those who did not come, to ensure the observance and compliance of this mandate of the teniente justice mayor of this mining camp, as is fitting in the service of His Majesty,, and this I affirm and authorize as visiting judge with two witnesses of my staff, since there is no escribano publico in this Royal Mining Camp of Our Lady of Guadalupe this twenty-second day of January of 1718

Antonio Beserranieto, visiting judge

Witness Juan Bautista de Anssa

Witness Miguell de Mendiguren


- pg.73 : "Gregorio Alvarez Tunon y Quiros became capitain vitalico at the Presidio Fronteras... He was the third person appointed permanent lifetime captain at Fronteras ... He did not live at the presidio , but at Jamaica, the site of a silver mine he was exploiting far to the south on the Moctezuma River. Most of the soldiers were forced to be off someplace most of the time, working for him on his ranches or in his mines, leaving no one to protect the frontier from the ever increasing raids of the apaches. The captain was collecting wages for soldiers who had been dead for years, and pocketing the money. ... Don Gregorio did not like the Jesuit missionaries. They were too vocal - far to willing to tell his superiors about his fraudulence and un-Christian like behavior. Worse yet they refused to let him have any more tapiques to work in his mines than the very minimum the law allowed. ... Besides the Jesuits there was another group that Don Gregorio despised - the Basques. Father Joseph Maria Genovese, a swiss Jesuit and father visitor to the northern missions, provided a good picture of Don Gregorios predjuduces: "... Regarding these Don Gregorio has said he will not stop until all the Basques are reduced to tanateros in his mine." (91)

(91) AHH, temp., leg.278, exp.41, Informe de Joseph Maria Genobese, f. 4v. Tanateros were the absolute bottom of the social ladder, ... By associating the Basques with tanateros, he was in effect labeling them the 'scum of the earth.'



- Got to take a break for a while, more later


Thanks ,

Scorch

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Thanks Scorch, for sharing the story.
Bob

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

 

[Scorch]

- deAnza cont'd...

- pg. 87 : It was after this general citizens meeting that Don Gregario made three serious mistakes. First, he called a secret meeting of a select few of the citizenry - illegal even by that days standards - to convene the night after the general meeting was adjourned. Secondly, he made a mistake of gravely maligning the Jesuits in order to promote his scheme for obtaining more tapisques for his mines. And third, he seriously erred in inviting some basques, Juan domingo de Berroeta, Jose de Goicoechea, and Fransisco Antonio de Lassa, to attend the meeting. As far as is known, these three were the only vizcainos in attendance.

Everyone at the secret meeting was asked to sighn a pact demanding that more tapisques be released from the missions to work in the mines. The Jesuit missionaries had refused to give up one Indian more than the 4 percent they were required by law to send. Contained in the instrument, ... ,were many accusations against the missionaries.(23) ... de Berroeta...detailed everything which had taken place at the secret meeting..."With infernal hypocritical cunning and the appearance that it was for the common good... to avenge their passions on the good Fathers".

- pg. 102 : The sargento mayor also included other incriminating evidence in his report. He told how the captains brother in-law, Fransisco Xavier de Miranda, had never been a soldier but was listed as one. Mirianda lived at Jamaica with Don Gregorio and had been paid as a soldier over the last year as he travelled to Mexico City and back with the captain. The sargento mayor told how the presidio had been too short handed to supply a guard for his trip back to Baseraca, and how the lieutenant had had to send some Indians to guard the caballada so the soldiers assigned to its care could be freed up to ride escort for him. He even included in the report Don Gregarios letter, written the day after his arrival in Fronteras, in which he said that the reason for the shortage of soldiers at the presidio was because the lieutenant and several of the enlisted men had been assigned to guard Domingo Picado Pachecos own mines at Jamaica.

- pg. 107 : 'I inform Your Lordship about the inspection made at the Presidio of Sonora. It resulted that Captain Don Gregorio was relieved of his commission and my lieutenant, Don Juan Bautista de Anza, was left in command of those troops. With a desire to perform his obligation, and charged with such by our Visitor, he left for that presidio with provisions for everyone. Indeed none were to be found in Sonora - but today he has re-equipped his garrison...'

- pg. 111 - 112 : Of this the general later wrote: "The captain was given a copy of the charges against him so that within a set time he might prepare his defense. Although the amounts [ of money Don Gregario was collecting for soldiers that did not exist ] had already been reviewed, I reviewed them again after the inspection because of the caliber of the company. The soldiers were not only ill equipped, but many were unfit for the service. I charged the captain accordingly, but he could not defend himself against the charge, or any other, even though he presented a lengthy argument.

I therefore decreed a final judgement ordering that the wages of one of the garrisons positions be deducted from the captains pay, This position was fictitious, as was sworn to by the person who theoretically occupied it. Furthermore, the captain was ordered to produce documentation accounting for 14,654 pesos, the yield of thirty-four positions over a period of seventeen years. (110) It was known he had embezzeled the salaries of two positions each year. I thus found him guilty on two counts, and the remaining thirteen charges I have sent to your excellency for review. Finally I suspended the captain and ordered him to appear to hear the sentence pronounced."

- pg.113 : One of the charges that had been brought against Don Gregario by General Rivera was that he had totally failed to respond to and help put down a Seri uprising in southwest Sonora. (117)

(117) Charge no. 10 : "He is charged with failing to hurry with his army to fight the Seri about a year ago, more or less, in the uprising in which they burned and killed twenty two people in the mining camp of Opodepe. He failed to respond in spite of being called twice by the alcalde mayor of this province. He excused himself from going with the frivolous pretext that the frontier was not under his command but under that of the Sinaloa presidio. At the news of the urgent necessity he should have hurried in fulfillment of his obligations to pacify the Indians, preventing the further hostile acts they committed." Quoted and translated in Smith, Captain of the Phantom Presisio, p. 124

- pg. 125 : ... 'Certainly, mission records of the time show greater numbers of sheep on the mission ranches than cattle."

- pg. 127 : ..." For this reason I have never thought to remove the furnishings from the churches, other than for appraising them, being of a mind instead, to pay whatever difference in price there was from my own purse in compliance with the Divine Majesty and His church rituals" - Juan Bautista de Anza.

- pg. 128 : ... ' Although Don Gregorio had not traveled to Mexico City, he had hired lawyers to represent him there. They fought a hard, uphill battle and, in the end, lost everything, including their own right to practice law for a specified period of time. Don Gregario was permanently removed from his lifetime captaincy and fined 24,431 pesos plus court costs. This was the amount that would be taken from the properties that Anza attached. The disgraced captain died on March 30, 1728. ... Evidently a number of people felt that Don Gregario had owed them something and were willing to circumvent the due process of law to get it - certain Jesuit missionaries not excluded.'

- pg. 129 : ... " It should be known then, most Reverend Father, that the alcalde mayor of this province took charge of the possessions of the said deceased and sold them at public auction, from which some of the reverend fathers missionaries removed various furnishings for the public worship.'

- pg. 130 : ..." It is true reverend father that I wrote to the very reverend father visitor, by request of a priest who removed some of the furnishings, always imagining that the father visitor would respond to me by returning the price of the furnishings if they were delivered to him. Although the said reverend father has not responded as I had hoped...'

- pg. 131 : ...'Cristobal de Canas, father visitor stationed at Arizpe, whom Anza mentions twice in the letter, had also been involved in the conflict with Don Gregario for some ten years. ... Yet he appears to have condoned the 'stealing' of items belonging to the estate. ... Greed and corruption were obviously not limited to the lawless element of the Sonora. Even Jesuit priests could succumb to such temptation.'

- pg. 135 : ... 'de Anza was made a [lay] brother in the Jesuit order sometime prior to November 4, 1729. ... 'since so little is known about the matter it is best to to take his words and let it go at that: ..." I have been honored to be admitted as a brother into the Holy Company of Jesus, with no other merit than he has considered the great affection that I have professed for the general reason that I am a Basque, and especially because, since childhood, an intimate friendship- with the reverend father missionaries of these provinces, for the space of twenty-four years that I have assisted in them, has reigned in me to the present."

- pg. 136 : ' It has even been said that Anza could not have been a brother, since the Jesuits do not have a third order and never did.' ... 'we are told that he did not take all the vows, nor was he able or expected to perform all the sacraments: "I have ... obtained relief from my obligations in the case of religious offerings. For the sake of my smallness, I have thus been empowered."

- pg. 187 - 188 : A false prophet, pretending to be Montezuma, was causing disturbance among the Indians. : ...' Knowing of his maliciousness I gave him a few blows of my cane to get him to confess. ... He had the idol in a little basket wrapped in cotton. The rosaries and crucifixes and other jewels with which they had endowed him were in a large basket. ... I determined to bring him to justice in consequence of the grave offense he had committed;

...I put punishment into effect, having first administered the sacrament of penance, on the first day of this month in the aforementioned village of guayamas, where I had him hanged from a tall palm tree. It was remarkable that until he breathed his last the Indians were half expecting him to turn us to stone or bring the world to an end by means of his false God. They even asked me to take him to a Spanish community to have him executed, but I did not consent to the request. ... so that no supporter could claim that he was still alive in the presence of the God Montezuma, like the false prophet Mohammed.

... Finished with this task I went to several villages that had been deserted but were now the most crowded. People were lying in the open where some were dying, having contracted smallpox and other infirmities. They confessed that a great part of this severe calamity was the result of their own foolishness for having believed such an evil Indian.

... There the said father missionary, after they had made the act of contrition, absolved them and performed the function of burning the idol and all the gifts they had offered to it. At the conclusion of this fervent ceremony, I entered and administered the penance of lashes, to which they willingly volunteered their backs - men, women, and children, - confessing that they deserved even greater punishment for their folly, and rendered me thanks. ...'

Pimeria Alta, June 25, 1737.
Most Illustrious and Excellent Lord,
your most humble servant is at the feet of Your Excellency.
- Juan Bautista de Anssa


Well, these are some of the high-lights of all that I have read so far. I think it certainly gives a taste of those times, and shows that they were all capable of far more than some of us today are willing to give them credit for, on the basis of their race, or job description, etc.

It is a fascinating book, and I hope the length of my excerpts here, has not ruined anyone's eyesight!

Thanks ,

Scorch

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Fantastic my friend Scorch, rates some coffee

 

[Oroblanco]

- deAnza cont'd...



- pg. 135 : ... 'de Anza was made a [lay] brother in the Jesuit order sometime prior to November 4, 1729. ... 'since so little is known about the matter it is best to to take his words and let it go at that: ..." I have been honored to be admitted as a brother into the Holy Company of Jesus, with no other merit than he has considered the great affection that I have professed for the general reason that I am a Basque, and especially because, since childhood, an intimate friendship- with the reverend father missionaries of these provinces, for the space of twenty-four years that I have assisted in them, has reigned in me to the present."

- pg. 136 : ' It has even been said that Anza could not have been a brother, since the Jesuits do not have a third order and never did.' ... 'we are told that he did not take all the vows, nor was he able or expected to perform all the sacraments: "I have ... obtained relief from my obligations in the case of religious offerings. For the sake of my smallness, I have thus been empowered."


Well, these are some of the high-lights of all that I have read so far. I think it certainly gives a taste of those times, and shows that they were all capable of far more than some of us today are willing to give them credit for, on the basis of their race, or job description, etc.

It is a fascinating book, and I hope the length of my excerpts here, has not ruined anyone's eyesight!

Thanks ,

Scorch

Great post Scorch, that paragraph in particular is rather striking. Please do continue;
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

co adjutor

 

[Shortfinger]

Great post Scorch, that paragraph in particular is rather striking. Please do continue;
Oroblanco

Agreed. That certainly puts an interesting light on things....



JB

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Is the story over. I'm really enjoying it

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[Oroblanco]

Is the story over. I'm really enjoying it

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

Well not sure it is really a story, more like a 'civil court' in trying to prove or disprove the Jesuits accumulating treasures, and in direct relation to this, also mining. Other 'charges' came up like enslavement of natives etc. I think the defense rested some time ago, and the prosecution seems to be also rested. It is already over 230 pages long, have you read the entire thing? If so, what is your conclusion about the question, Jesuit Treasures Are They Real? Do you feel that the question(s) this thread was intended to address, have been adequately answered, or do you think more needs to be examined? Thanks in advance.