JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

Don Jose,

Nana's Cave is no secret at all. What has Wales to do with this particular Jesuit story? That's the problem with telling a factual story, every Tom, Dick and Jose has to add some crazy fantasy "facts" into the mix.

Let's stick to one story at a time. You go back to the topic of Tayopa and tell your story, and I will stay here and inform the natives of mine. That sounds only fair. You are begining to sound like bb. The next thing you know, Atlantis will be coming around the proverbial corner, with Moctezuma hard on its heels, riding roughshod over Bigfoot.

Merry Christmas!!

Joe
 

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Good evening Group,

Lamar wrote,

Dear cactusjumper;
I agree with your assessment of the situation 101% my friend! However, I would like for it to be known that I am dedicated to protecting the faith, and as such, as long as there are no more anti-Catholic or anti-Jesuit statements made, I shall be content to let sleeping dogs lie.

And now, game on! Of course, in all of the replies there has be any substantive proof of the existence of Jesuit treasures. I've read of instances of Jesuits having bells made of silver, yet no one has yet asked why those particular bells were cast in silver instead of in bronze? If a bell were cast in silver then most assuredly it could NOT have been rung as it would crack the first time the clapper hit the side of the bell!

Next, no one has yet asked WHO cast the silver bells? Bell casting was a highly skilled art form and it required manyskilled and trained craftsmen in order to make a working bell. Even with all of their vast experince, the very elementary methods employed insured that only one bell in three passed the proof stage. To the best of my knowledge, all bells were cast by bell founders in Europe and there were never any bell founders in the New World colonies until at least the mid 1800s. Therefore, those 7 silver bells could only have been cast in Europe and I seriously think that someone would have noticed seven solid silver bells either during their founding or during the trip across the Atlantic Ocean.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

Maybe you missed this from the Mission Guevavi excavation by William J. Robinson, published in the KIVA, vol 42, No. 2. 1976. It appears that Guevavi was setup as a foundry.

Merry Christmas to all!

Sincerely,

Infosponge
 

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Buenos noches amigo Don Jose' - about the only way I could 'get going' at the moment would be by dog-sled, but we are working on that too! :wink:
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Thank you Infosponge :icon_thumleft:
 

Hello Beth,

Except for the "(and mined)" and "remains of a refinerery (and arrastras)" your post has the information that can be found on the Internet.
The road to that location is very bad today, which likely was started on the trail that Kino and Aguilar are said to have originally travelled.
Trouble is, it never happened. Instead, it was Kino and Manje and they were exploring the area close to the merging Salt and Verde Rivers. They were there at the request of friendly Apaches, who wanted a priest and mission in the area. That request is written history, what followed has been expunged.


With gold and silver always in mind, Kino and Manje moved east towards Goldfield and the Superstition Mountains. They found outcroppings of gold at, what is today, Goldfield. From there they moved into the Superstition Mountains, finding gold everywhere. The find had to be kept totally secret or the Spaniards would have flooded into Arizona.

They created a mission close to the major find in the mountains and enslaved the friendly Apache to do all of the work, including the mining. The evidence can be found for this in the oral Apache history. The Apache built their own slave quarters in Garden Valley. This is also a well known fact. They kept them there with a small army of friendly Indians from Mexico. Those guards were Yaqui.

The work continued until the Jesuit's were expelled. At the same time as that event, the unfriendly Apache struck the secret works and drove everyone from the mountains. There are the remains of arrastras and small rock ovens for "roasting" the ore that was being mined in the area of the Massacre Grounds.

INBETTERSHAPE.jpg
OLDARRASTRA.jpg


MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Joe
 

CJ,

Well, then, quick question - the info I now see on the net (not where I got my original info, but from a jesuit book that was around some 15 years ago in a library) which, of course, begs the question of why the library book and the info that is at the Tumacacori site on this here www - is different.

It could be that I am remembering the exact writings incorrectly - it was quite awhile ago, but I do remember Manje coming in afterwards, and that the statue was actually something that Ignacio WROTE about (something that he always wanted to do in a mission church, but never found just the right place).

Like I said - its nice to get a memory jog - though, for me, it would be impossible to get the book that I had originally read (I'm in the wrong state, and it was not a book you could take out), so it is nice to have someone bring up something I had heard about before and forgotten.

B
 

Roy,

"Luz de Tierra Incognita" are the travel diaries of Capt Juan Mateo Manje.

Best-Mike
 

----------------------STOP------------------​

This thread is about Jesuit Treasure Possibilities and I have let that evolve into Jesuit Mining Activities since they are closely related.

There is no place here for a religious discussion. I said in the beginning that I would not stand for Catholic/Jesuit bashing. Yammy is wrong when he says that any discussion is "BASHING".

I have seen no absolute proof as to whether or not mining was carried out by orders from "ON HIGH", but as I have stated, that since it took no less than 18 YEARS for a man to take his final vows as a Jesuit, I doubt seriously that he would take the risk of committing a SIN by breaking the Jesuits' most important Vow of Obedience.


Merry Christmas-Mike
 

.....also, I welcome ANY comments on the subject at hand, whether they be positive or negative. EVERYBODY is allowed to believe whatever they wish.

I would prefer that comments (whether positive or negative) have a point rather than just disagreeing with the opposing view to yours.

Best-Mike
 

Cactus: your post was diametrically opposite to your normal / general trend in the past, so I mistook your post as a form of negative humor, and responded in the same. If so I apol, ------- heheehh

Sorta like some of Lamar's humorous posts.

Don Jose de La Mancha

.
 

Beth,

This would be the book you are referring to:

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It's a great historical read, where it has been left original. :wink: Not hard to find at all. You can pick up a copy for around $40. They do, of course, go higher.

Merry Christmas!!

Joe
 

That may be it - its not a book I bought, for sure - it was one I was reading in a library (still not allowed out), though, really, I don't remember it being that color - eh - like I said, it was quite a while ago.

Is that in English?

B
 

T.P.,

I think you are correct.

It's not the eggnog, but what Don Jose adds to it. :tongue3:

I hope he doesn't take offense. :dontknow:

Merry Christmas!!!

Joe
 

Ah! There's the Rub
It's in the eggnog.....
Merry Christmas

Somehiker
 

Seasons greetings,

It is sometimes hard to tell when someone is joking. :dontknow: If Cactusjumper is simply pulling our leg, it is a good one. :thumbsup:

Mrs O and I are somewhat handicapped for "source" books, as the majority of our little library is not accessible. So I have been making use of the not-inconsiderable materials available online, which I am sure some folks take offence to as "worthless and unreliable" but as our discussion is not simply for the sake of the opinions of us whom are actively posting, I think they are worth including. Our readers are free to accept or dismiss any or all of what we post.

*Side note, we did pull out one box of books, which turns out to be nearly all on the Black Hills. Not helpful for our discussion but sure looking forward to next summer! ;D*

Father Kino's writings on Pimeria are online at
http://books.google.com/books?id=EwF6AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=&f=false
...and on checking, this places the mission named as one day's journey from his mission at Dolores, which is curious. There are some rather interesting passages too, such as a number of minor (visita) missions which Kino established, and are not mentioned by later historians such as Bancroft <who makes a number of errors, tending to minimize the explorations and works of Kino> but as these missions are mentioned by Father Visitor Salviaterra a couple of years later, it seems safe to conclude that there were considerably more missions in southern Arizona than many historians will grant. What is missing entirely are records of Jesuit (or Franciscan) attempts to convert and reduce the Apaches. Are we to presume that NO attempts were ever made? We know that at least some Apaches came in to Tucson and became "Mission Indians" so the possibility was there, not all Apaches were utterly hostile.

I had a bit more to add concerning the expulsion of the Jesuits - for example when they were expelled from Japan in the early 1600's, out of 122 Jesuits, 46 remained behind, by the ruse of having European sailors dress in their robes for the 'roundup'. After being caught and shipped out, many (nearly all) soon returned by sneaking back into Japan. This may not be directly related to what happened in the New World over 100 years later, but shows that it was possible for the Jesuits to avoid being expelled and some could sneak back. Do we know for a fact, that every one of the padres arrested in 1767, was the padre and not an imposter?

Father Kino's memoirs on Pimeria includes letters from Father Saeta. They certainly seem innocent enough, but we find a couple of passages which could be interpreted differently. For example, Father Saeta, after being assigned to his new church, found that he was very busy with his labors, both spiritual and "temporal" - and here temporal would cover everything and anything from doing laundry to branding cattle, or supervising mines. Another passage,

discuss many things I shall be glad if the articles of clothing referred to can be brought at the time of meeting from some of these mining towns for my children for they are limited to sackcloth blankets tunics and pisiete I will promptly pay what they are worth either in wheat or in silver at the latest at wheat harvest for here work proceeds with vigor feruet opus B
Click to expand...
<http://books.google.com/books?id=EwF6AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA138#v=onepage&q=silver&f=false>

...mentions that he will be able to pay for the clothing and articles (for the mission children) in wheat or SILVER. The Silver may have been from alms collected, or from the sale of mission produce, or his own pocket, or from silver mines being worked by mission Indians under supervision of the Jesuits. We can't say for certain, but it is notable that he said "silver" and not "in coin" or "in money" or cash, pesos, etc. It appears that he meant just what he wrote - silver. It is also something to consider that Father Saeta was newly posted to the church, and was responsible for Tubutama; that Father Kino describes him as "very zealous" and in his own letter he says work proceeds with vigor. Again this could be utterly innocent, or it could show us that he was a bit harsh (out of religious zeal) and his Opata overseers were beating the Pimas severely, which I propose are likely roots of the whole 1695 Pima revolt.

Joe - I don't need to see a photo of gold bars to believe, if you would rather not post such pix I have no problem. Do you know of any record, from that time period, which will support the scenario you have presented? Dark or ugly parts of history do get expunged by historians, so I don't expect to see a lot - however when such erasures are done, often a small hint will escape notice by the "editors" whom are censoring the records.

Lamar are you serious, that a silver bell cannot be rung because it will crack? Are you willing to place your reputation behind that idea?
Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco
 

Catusj, that photo you posted coulda came from a overgrown lot in lets say Timbuctoo and only 1 photo at that. A couple of cut blocks laying in weeds. I wanna see photos of gbars,statue inscriptions, and the Cross,not the double cross, so where are they? huh, jus get off your high horse and post, oh and by the way,Merry Christmas ,and to all others on this board too,,even those in ole Mexico,Jose De Tappiccoca,gd :headbang: :headbang: :laughing9: :thumbsup:
 

Cactusjumper, I would not post any photos unless it is long enough that the statute of limitations has expired. :icon_pirat:
 

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