JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[lamar]

... My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Oh, the exquisite irony listening to a disguised pagan separating himself from the pagans! Life is good - enjoy it everyone.

Dear Springfield;
And once again, we have yet another example of anti-Catholic prejudic! Do you REALLY believe that the Roman Catholic Church is based on pagan rituals, my friend? If so, then unfortunately you truly have no idea about the history of the Roman Catholic Church. That the Roman Catholic Church was based on pagan rituals and beliefs in order to easily convert the pagans to Catholicism is nothing more than lie which originated at around the same time of the rise of the Reformists (ie, Protestants). It's completely untrue and it shows the ignor@nce and anti-Catholic bias which is still pre-dominant throughout the USA.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[lamar]

Roy,


Even though I was raised, early years, Catholic, I am no apologist or even fan of any church. Once I left the Catholic Church

Dear cactusjumper;
My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Reminds me of the time a friend of mine tried to leave the Mafia.
He was told pretty much the same thing.

Now, don't stone me. This is a joke.

Roadquest,

You may have said it jokingly, but it was very close to my first thought.

Friend Lamar,

The way you present that, you make it sound more like a commandment from God than it does a rule of the church.
Like I said before, I have very little personal knowledge about the Catholic Religion. You seem to be closer to the subject than anyone I have ever had the pleasure of talking to about it before. From our brief discussion about the possibility of the Jesuits being involved in mining. I have been able to form some personal conclusions, about whether or not I believe there COULD actually be any hidden Jesuit Treasures. I thank you for that, as it has already moved me farther down the road to making other decisions.

Now on the subject of "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas". I am afraid that leads me to believe things about the Catholic Church that are not flattering, and cause me to more readily accept some of the negative views about it. My respect for your knowledge about the ways of the church, remains as high as it ever was, but the more I read your words. The more I lose respect for the Catholic Religion, and the more I become convinced that they might break, or bend, or even rewrite any rule as necessary to further their own agenda.

I apologize to the detractors for the way I continuously drag this discussion back to the center of the subject but I really do find it fascinating.

Ritchie

Dear Ritchie;
I understand your apprehensions, my friend, however what we believe is not much different than what other faiths also believe, and there exists other Christian faiths as well as non-Christian faiths, who believe in their own versions of Extra Eccalsiam, nulla salas. Once a Catholic is confirmed, an oath is sworn never to leave the Church or turn one's back on Her teachings. In this regard, we believe that the only way for us to ascend into Heaven is through continued faith in the Roman Catholic Church and in Her teachings.

This is actually no different from Baptist faith which states that if a person is not *saved* then they will never, ever, not in a billiony, gadzilliony years go to Heaven. Many other protestant faiths have similiar beliefs of their own, however, many of those faiths have *watered down* their respective stances in light of the recent liberalization of the Christian faith in general.

Therefore, in the eyes of the Baptist faith, I am bound straight to Hades, which I am OK with as I understand their viewpoint on the subject and the interpretations in the Bible which they use (wrongly, in my opinion) to solidify their position.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

..... Do you REALLY believe that the Roman Catholic Church is based on pagan rituals, my friend? [Yes, unequivocally. The life of the god-man is an allegorical narrative of the sun's yearly circuit. Nothing new here of course - all the world's religions have used the same theme. But you knew this.] ...... That the Roman Catholic Church was based on pagan rituals and beliefs in order to easily convert the pagans to Catholicism [A succinct summary - thank you.] .... It's completely untrue and it shows the ignor@nce and anti-Catholic bias which is still pre-dominant throughout the USA. [My agenda is to find the truth. Eventually, we'll all be on the same page, even you, my friend. By the way, I do not wish this thread to continue in this direction. People interested in these ideas should investigate them for themselves. This is the last I have to say on the matter.]

 

[lamar]

..... Do you REALLY believe that the Roman Catholic Church is based on pagan rituals, my friend? [Yes, unequivocally.] ...... That the Roman Catholic Church was based on pagan rituals and beliefs in order to easily convert the pagans to Catholicism [A succinct summary - thank you.] .... It's completely untrue and it shows the ignor@nce and anti-Catholic bias which is still pre-dominant throughout the USA. [My agenda is to find the truth. Eventually, we'll all be on the same page, even you.]

Dear Springfield;
It your agenda is to truly discover the historical truth as well as the historical facts regarding the Roman Catholic church I might suggest that you actually research and study the origins of the Roman Catholic Church instead of permitting generations of myths and outright untruths to formulate your particular version of what you construe is the truth.

The Roman Catholic faith is one of the three Abrahamic monotheistic religions. In fact, Catholicism is based upon the earlier Jewish religion, which is only natural, as the earliest Christians were Jews. There were no Gentile Christians until about 150 years after Christ's cruxificion. By the this time the basic tenants of the Roman Catholic faith were already firmly established and the rubrics of the worship were taken directly from the Hebrews.

To make a statement that the Roman Catholic faith was based upon, or altered by, paganistic rituals is simply ludicrous, and if you happen to possess the power of intelligent thought, then you would know almost immediately the fallacy in a statement such as that one.

Do you have ANY idea just how MANY pagans sects there were immediately following the death of Jesus, up till the Reformation period? There were literally THOUSANDS of them and they were all very different in their rituals and beliefs. In order for the Roman Catholic church to have been able to have modeled our faith along the same lines as theirs, the end result would have been a mish-mash of conflicting rituals, rubrics and theologies! In short, it would have been simply impossible, my friend.

Even to state that the Roman Catholic faith was altered in order to appease the Roman pagans is wholly and completely untrue. The Roman pagan faith is very well documented by scholars of the era, and from the surviving texts we can plainly read that there were NO similiarities between the two faiths. In fact, the Roman pagans considered the early Christians to be a sect of the Jewish faith, that's how many similiarities the Catholic fiath and the Jewish faith share.

To call the Roman Catholic faith a pagan religion is to also call the Jewish faith a pagan religion and ultimately the Protestant faiths as pagan faiths, as they all sprang from Catholicism, which in turn sprang from Judaism. Even the Muslim faith sprang from the Judaic faith, my friend. Therefore, in order for your prior statement to be true, then it must encompass ALL of the Christian faiths as well as the Jewish and Islamic faiths! Are you prepared to go that far?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

..... Do you REALLY believe that the Roman Catholic Church is based on pagan rituals, my friend? [Yes, unequivocally. The life of the god-man is an allegorical narrative of the sun's yearly circuit. Nothing new here of course - all the world's religions have used the same theme. But you knew this.] ...... That the Roman Catholic Church was based on pagan rituals and beliefs in order to easily convert the pagans to Catholicism [A succinct summary - thank you.] .... It's completely untrue and it shows the ignor@nce and anti-Catholic bias which is still pre-dominant throughout the USA. [My agenda is to find the truth. Eventually, we'll all be on the same page, even you, my friend. By the way, I do not wish this thread to continue in this direction. People interested in these ideas should investigate them for themselves. This is the last I have to say on the matter.]

Dear Springfield;
Of course it's perfectly allright for YOU to make an incredibly prejudiced and biased statement by calling Roman Catholicism thinly veiled paganism and then stating that:
By the way, I do not wish this thread to continue in this direction. People interested in these ideas should investigate them for themselves. This is the last I have to say on the matter

In my opinion, this is the classical cop-out and it's shows a lack of fortitude. You can call me a thinly veiled pagan and expect to be able to get away with it by stating that you do not wish to discuss it further? Is this correct, or am I mistaken?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Well, CJ,

We could talk about a very well known mine - it has been called the "Lost Jesuit Gold of the Sierra Madres".

Let's see, who cast those bells - ah, yes, Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana - 1603.

Let's see - if memory serves correctly - there were 17 mines known to be around the Guadalupe de Tayopa.

How about all that other "treasure" that was written about, by Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla, around January of 1646? Bells, and silver crosses and crucifixes and much more.

Do those 17 mines count as one?


If you are looking for a cache of gold bars or nuggets - we are certainly not talking about the same thing. They were quite capable - and DID - take the gold and made objects from them - just like some people in other times made jewelry out of their gold, so they could legally own it, and how folks in the United States used to hide THEIR gold when we were supposed to give it up.

Sorry to say - the Jesuits, by declaration - were not really Catholics in the true sense of the word - they had their very own society, the Society of Jesus, with their own goals, and their own leaders, who just happened to be Catholic. Much like the Mason, who just happen to be Americans, and every other organizational offshoot of any Church, organization or country.

I do not understand why, if all the Jesuits were so saintly (and they do do many good works), that there would be so many against them - enough for them to suffer reprimand and expulsion from not one, but several countries, and not by just governmental people, but by more than one religious leader.

To honestly believe that, not one Jesuit could do wrong is......unbelieveable to me. Naive, maybe - I don't know, but, the bottom line is that this is a group of people who think they need to improve on the Church, for one, and are human - with human frailties - and, just like people fell out of favor within the Catholic priesthood, because they are not saints, they are just men - so is what happened in history with the Jesuits.

B

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings,

Lamar - a special request, for you; please take the religious-theological discussion to the Religion forum where it belongs. Your attempts to derail our discussion of Jesuit treasures and mines into some kind of religion-bashing are only too apparent and likely to get the thread pulled, which one may be tempted to suspect is your true purpose.

Cactusjumper wrote

Can you name three missions, their priests, the mines, and the approximate date the priests were there?

Actually you already have enough information to find the answers to your question. The Salero mine, 1727, Bishop Crespi's visit, simply see which priests were assigned to Tubac, Tumacacori and Guevavi at that time, and we know that Campos, and Velarde were in charge of that whole area; fathers Segesser, Grazhoffer and Keller arrived in 1731 and were assigned to the vacant missions at San Xavier, Guevavi and Santa Maria Suamca. Guevavi has its' own mines associated with it, and what a surprise, we find that father Grazhoffer, assigned to that mission, is mysteriously poisoned by his own Indians. One might well surmise that they did not appreciate being sent to work in the mines. For Tayopa we have much more specifics - and I see that Mrs O has already pointed that out. I do not have a list of the Jesuits assigned to Cananea, but you have a place and date there as well, a visit to the city to see their register of mines will give you the names and their mineral discoveries.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I do enjoy legends, but my thing is history, facts and finding the truth. Those are my motives, plain and simple. Those who read an agenda into my posts are dead wrong. If you present solid evidence that is sufficient to erase what has been written in the history books and historical documents/archives, I will have no problem changing my tune. So far, that is not happening.

I don't know what it is that you need to see, before you are willing to change your views. Like SWR, who wishes to see scholarly studies done, I will point out that none of us here are scholars, and the scholarly community has shown no interest in searching for treasures or lost mines of any kind, with the exception of some Egyptian pharaohs and Genghis Khan, <also the first emperor of China> and here their interest seems focused on the history rather than the actual treasures. This is, after all, a family-oriented site, frequented by a pack of treasure hunters most of whom are not so interested in the scholarly approach to history. You are welcome to hold your views on these subjects, and demand to see whatever it is you wish to see before you change your mind, but do keep in mind that for the apologist version to be true, there must be NO evidence of any kind of any mines and - or treasures, anywhere.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Mike,

I suppose where you lost me was when the "Church vestments and Candlesticks, Monstrances, Ciboria, and various other Church Vestments made of precious metals in quantities large or small." became "treasure".
I was, pretty much, stuck on refined silver and gold. (bars or ingots)

Can you tell me which missions were considered "rich" at the beginning of the eighteenth century and up to the time of the expulsion? I am only interested in those which are tied to legendary mines and treasures.

I would also be interested in the priests that you attatch to those treasures and mines. Pretty much the same questions I asked Roy.

I know what you are looking to do, for us to assign the incorrect padre to a mine, which can then be shown to be wrong, which however does not prove that no Jesuits ever had mines. I have to admit that this detail has not troubled me, for what will it matter? Besides, we do NOT have the names of most of the Jesuit Lay Brothers assigned anywhere, and these are the fellows most likely to be directly involved in running the mines. Can you provide us with a list of the names of the Jesuit Lay Brothers, assigned to Pimeria only, for the period of say, 1725 to 1767?

Joe - I am glad to know that you have a new partner and buddy, the member of your familly named Smoky! Congratulations amigo and we wish you and yours a very special Merry Christmas, I know it will be!

Now for our readers, a bit more to "chew on"...

More testimony on the Jesuits having MINES; this is referring to the "Pious Fund" we mentioned earlier, which grew to quite respectable proportions over time from the large contributions of their benefactors;

Really since 1735 there had been no great difficulty as to the finances The Jesuits had received some large donations which were administered shrewdly they purchased some productive real estate and afterwards added to it mines factories and flocks This property was held sacred to the California enterprise and was called the Pious Fund

<The history of California By Franklin Tuthill, SAN FRANCISCO HH BANCROFT & COMPANY 1866, pp 67 >

More on the Jesuits acquiring wealth;

The Jesuits arrived in 1567 and introduced the first printing machine into the New World established churches and colleges and acquired great wealth.

<Ecuador: its ancient and modern history, topography and natural resources ... By Charles Reginald Enock,NEW YORK 1914, pp 73 >

The consequences of this régime could be hidden neither from the curates nor their superiors but their <Jesuit> private interests occupied the place of first importance in all they did and thus they adopted a method of their own the grand object of which was to keep the Indians aloof from every thing that could tend to rescue them from ignorance and degradation. When men acted upon this régime and upon these principles of political economy it cannot be matter of surprise that in the course of a hundred and fifty years the period since these establishments were formed such immense wealth should have been found in the churches as in that fund called the fund of the community. For my part I am not astonished at this when I consider the vast fertility of this province the complete subjugation of the Indians that they were absolutely shut out from all intercourse with the Spaniards and that knowing no other authority than that of the Jesuits they became mere tools in their hands

<History of the Jesuits: from the foundation of their society to ..., Volume 1 By Andrew Steinmetz, pp 421 PHILADELPHIA LEA AND BLANCHARD 1848 >

SWR wrote

These and similar actions have made him be termed a "Catholic basher" by his Christian critics

So I take it that you read that paragraph I posted, quote

None but an entirely prejudiced opponent of the Jesuits would imagine that all the members of any province of the Society were lacking in moral delicacy and deep religious feeling In every age and clime there were Jesuits of lofty purpose great sincerity and unselfish activity for what they regarded as the good of man There were many such in the long calendar of the Germanic provinces.

<A candid history of the Jesuits By Joseph McCabe>
end quote

....is CATHOLIC BASHING? What a strange interpretation, I don't understand how you get that from those sentences.
Merry Christmas to you all,
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Dear Springfield;
Of course it's perfectly allright for YOU to make an incredibly prejudiced and biased statement by calling Roman Catholicism thinly veiled paganism and then stating that:
By the way, I do not wish this thread to continue in this direction. People interested in these ideas should investigate them for themselves. This is the last I have to say on the matter

In my opinion, this is the classical cop-out and it's shows a lack of fortitude. You can call me a thinly veiled pagan and expect to be able to get away with it by stating that you do not wish to discuss it further? Is this correct, or am I mistaken?
Your friend;
LAMAR

You are not mistaken, my friend; continuing this discussion would be inappropriate for this thread and would serve as a disservice to others who are interested in the topic at hand. Please note the underlined emphasis to my previous statement above. Your opinion is predictable and certainly understandable, but of no particular importance to me. I suggest that this thread's discussionget back to Jesuit Treasures - Are They Real?

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

I have to agree with Springfield. This is not the place for this conversation. I know I helped it along, but we need to police it ourselves, or the management (Jeff) will.

Let's end in now.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

Ya know...it is a catch 22. "Jesuit Treasure" in itself is an accusation that Jesuit's broke vows and were involved in less than honorable dubious deeds.

It would be a one-sided conversation if only speculation of wrong doing was allowed. That would be every conspiracy theorists dream.

This very accusation may not be accurate - for how do we know they were actually breaking their vows, and not simply following orders from leadership? (ie Provincials, as those most likely I would propose) We might well also take note that individually, there is only a single case where the ownership of the mine was a Jesuit personally rather than the whole of the Order and/or the Church. How would a Jesuit be breaking his vow of poverty, if he were to direct the mining operations of the Indians under his care, for the benefit of the Church, when the Church owns the mine, for example.

In my personal opinion, I have always thought the answer would be more likely that some individuals within the Order were operating the mines, having overcome the problems of whether they were breaking their vows or the Spanish (or Portuguese) laws with their own logic to justify themselves, than that the Society was behind every mining operation, but it is clear that the Society was behind SOME of these; as with the Santa Brigitta, La Teniente, Tayopa for examples. However as that old saying goes - "obscuris vera involvens" - I now am convinced that the reverse is the case - that nearly all of the mining operations were the property and responsibility of the Society of Jesus.

Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Beth,

You must be freezing your burro's off up there. Brrrrrr....

It seems important to know who was at the missions you believe were involved in mining and when,......in Mexico. If you are going to debate the matter so vociferously, shouldn't you have researched the details, at least well enough to know if it was even possible? If your legend, pick one, is that Father so and so enslaved his charges and forced them to work his mine, shouldn't you narrow it down to, at least, a decade and a specific priest or priests?

Was there a mission approaching the splendor of those you posted pictures of, in the era and area of these legendary mines? The Jesuit mission system was in serious decline by 1700. The Jesuits were turning many over to secular priests and stretching the Fathers thin by having them travel great distances to minister to those they were forced to abandon.

The Natives were to work for the missions for three days, and in their own fields for the remaining three. So many were going to work in the Spanish mines, that their own fields, as well a the missions were going to ruin. The three days they were supposed to work in their own fields was for food for themselves and their families. It was not being done, and the Jesuits were forced to dole out rations from the surplus to avoid those left behind from starving.

The surplus was kept by the Jesuits for two reasons. One was to provide for the people in times of flood or drought when the crops were poor. The other reason was to sell to the settlers/miners and use the funds to support the missions and their people. The Jesuits insisted that they be paid for these goods with silver and gold. They used whatever funds they didn't need, to help support the poorer missions. That also included food, and stock. Father Kino started many missions with stock and food from his own mission. They all shared with those less fortunate.

You have named legendary gold mines that are not in Mexico. This topic, I believe, is trying to determine if there were Jesuit mines and treasure in and from Mexico. If no one knows the names of the priests, the mines, the missions and the time period, the only thing left to discuss is legend.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

SWR,

[Ya know...it is a catch 22. "Jesuit Treasure" in itself is an accusation that Jesuit's broke vows and were involved in less than honorable dubious deeds.

It would be a one-sided conversation if only speculation of wrong doing was allowed. That would be every conspiracy theorists dream.]

While that could be explored in a focused manner, I don't need to know about Lamar's, Ritchie's, SWR's, Beth's or anyone else's personal methods of worship. Most of what has been posted has nothing to do with what took place with the Jesuits and their treasures or lack thereof.

If you want to talk about the mission Jesuits good deeds or bad, as it relates to the possibility that they were involved in amasing a treasure or doing illegal mining, that seems fair game. Let's return to the topic question.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

All,

I have to agree with Springfield. This is not the place for this conversation. I know I helped it along, but we need to police it ourselves, or the management (Jeff) will.

Let's end in now.

Joe Ribaudo

Dear cactusjumper;
I agree with your assessment of the situation 101% my friend! However, I would like for it to be known that I am dedicated to protecting the faith, and as such, as long as there are no more anti-Catholic or anti-Jesuit statements made, I shall be content to let sleeping dogs lie.

And now, game on! Of course, in all of the replies there has be any substantive proof of the existence of Jesuit treasures. I've read of instances of Jesuits having bells made of silver, yet no one has yet asked why those particular bells were cast in silver instead of in bronze? If a bell were cast in silver then most assuredly it could NOT have been rung as it would crack the first time the clapper hit the side of the bell!

Next, no one has yet asked WHO cast the silver bells? Bell casting was a highly skilled art form and it required manyskilled and trained craftsmen in order to make a working bell. Even with all of their vast experince, the very elementary methods employed insured that only one bell in three passed the proof stage. To the best of my knowledge, all bells were cast by bell founders in Europe and there were never any bell founders in the New World colonies until at least the mid 1800s. Therefore, those 7 silver bells could only have been cast in Europe and I seriously think that someone would have noticed seven solid silver bells either during their founding or during the trip across the Atlantic Ocean.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
On another note, it would seem that those bells simply appeared out of thin air and then disappeared back into the same thin air. In other words, there exists no documentation to substantiate the bell claim.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Dang it I forgot to say this, which I intended to put in my first reply;

WELCOME TO TREASURENET redselchie! Thank you for your informative and thoughtful post!

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy and Beth,

You must be freezing your burro's off up there. Brrrrrr....

It seems important to know who was at the missions you believe were involved in mining and when,......in Mexico.

Why must we limit our subject matter to Mexico? The Jesuit missions there were not different in any great respect from those in Chile or Panama, nor their histories really. In Baja California they had special powers from the Spanish crown, <as in monopoly> and in Paraguay they had special powers from the Portuguese crown, but otherwise.....? I don't understand why we should limit it. What the Jesuits were doing in Argentina may not matter to you, but it is indicative of their behavior, and should we presume that what they would do in one province, they will not do in another? Some of those we have discussed ARE in Mexico - Tayopa for instance.

Our weather has been quite reasonable the last few days, but expecting another blizzard shortly.

Cactusjumper also wrote

If you are going to debate the matter so vociferously, shouldn't you have researched the details, at least well enough to know if it was even possible? If your legend, pick one, is that Father so and so enslaved his charges and forced them to work his mine, shouldn't you narrow it down to, at least, a decade and a specific priest or priests?

So now my research is so shoddy that it does not satisfy you? You are saying that what we have provided already, is NOT enough to show that it was possible? I will pick one, Tayopa, you already have the details you indicate that you desire. I do not see that these details are that important. If you are expecting someone to post a shipping record written by father Kino with his signature, you will be disappointed. I will say that all of the padres held all of their Christianized Indians ALMOST as slaves, and that some did force some of their Indians to work in Jesuit Order-owned mines.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Was there a mission approaching the splendor of those you posted pictures of, in the era and area of these legendary mines? The Jesuit mission system was in serious decline by 1700. The Jesuits were turning many over to secular priests and stretching the Fathers thin by having them travel great distances to minister to those they were forced to abandon.

I will direct you to the photo of the Tarahumara mission, http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.msg2060096.html#msg2060096
You think this is POOR?

Cactusjumper also wrote

You have named legendary gold mines that are not in Mexico. This topic, I believe, is trying to determine if there were Jesuit mines and treasure in and from Mexico. If no one knows the names of the priests, the mines, the missions and the time period, the only thing left to discuss is legend.

Well I respectfully disagree with you on several points you state here, first where has our amigo Mike (Gollum) stated any such restriction(s) on keeping it solely focused on Mexico? I must have missed it. If there is such a restriction, I will point to the evidence outside of Mexico rather in the form of "character witness" showing that the same Order was certainly capable of mining and accumulating treasures. We have given you names of priests, mines, missions and time periods - what is it that you want? Are you demanding that someone post, Father X was beating his Indians with the whip forcing them to dig silver out of the mine named Y, on the 30th of June, 1741? If that is what you are expecting, it is unrealistic and far beyond what records exist. Besides - isn't Tayopa in Mexico, and this is SEVENTEEN mines (not counting El Paramo and the six others in that adjacent valley) and isn't the Santa Brigitta in Mexico? Isn't the Salero in what WAS Mexico? Wasn't Baja California also part of Mexico? You are acting as if NOTHING from Mexico has been mentioned.

I apologize if my own posts are not what you wish to see Joe, and if you expect that I am going to post everything I have, please don't ask. The posts I am putting up are not just to convince you personally amigo, and if our combined evidence is not enough to satisfy you, I am sorry for that. This is not a criminal case but a civil case, and we are in effect trying to determine if it is more likely to be true or false, rather than absolute specific, undeniable beyond a shadow of a doubt. If that is what you desire, you will not change your opinion from our discussion here.

Lamar wrote

On another note, it would seem that those bells simply appeared out of thin air and then disappeared back into the same thin air.

Right, so now you expect that one of us here, has one of those huge SILVER bells in our back pocket, so as to show it to you? Don't you think that a bit ridiculous?


Wishing you and yours (and everyone here) a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings,

When we discuss this, the big "event" of the Jesuit expulsion from Spanish America in 1767 is so frequently pointed to for evidence of how "poor" the Jesuits and their missions were. The findings of the Spanish authorities are utterly at variance with the descriptions given by Jesuits of those very same missions, for their rich furnishings and splendor. However on the "roundup" we find very little reference to the Lay Brothers of the Jesuits, and these are the men whom were largely responsible for the "work" of any particular mission, be it herding the cattle, hoeing the corn or working in the mines.

We do not have any list of names of the Lay Brothers who were assigned to work in Mexico. The few who are mentioned are rare exceptions. These men were not required to wear a "habit" or uniform of any kind, and would be most unlikely to be arrested in the great "roundup" which the Jesuits would have us believe were so efficient as to resemble a lightning strike, when the reality was both tragic and far from "lightning" like in execution. So, considering that these Lay Brothers were the men most probably directly involved with the mines, what did they do when the expulsion order happened?

Here is one example of a Jesuit Novitiate, and what he did when the Order was expelled from his province;

Ambrose Fernandes (1551-16-22) was born in Portugal and went to India in 1571 to make his fortune. He served in the Portuguese army in Salsette, India, and worked with several merchants in Goa and Macao. While traveling for one of them, he feared his ship would sink during a singularly vicious storm and he vowed he would enter the Jesuits if he survived. He did, and entered the novitiate in Nagasaki as a brother in January 1579. He took care of material needs at the Jesuit community, but went undercover when the Jesuits were expelled. He was arrested with Father Spinola and imprisoned for 13 months before being martyred.

<from http://www.sjweb.info/Jesuits/saintShow.cfm?SaintID=25 "Jesuit Saints and Blesseds" a website OF the Society of Jesus.>

Now this is not in Mexico of course, but is an example of a Jesuit brother <not a Padre, as he was still a Novitiate> who was "taking care of material needs" and who simply went undercover when the suppression happened in the province he was stationed in, in this case Japan.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Seasons greetings,

When we discuss this, the big "event" of the Jesuit expulsion from Spanish America in 1767 is so frequently pointed to for evidence of how "poor" the Jesuits and their missions were. The findings of the Spanish authorities are utterly at variance with the descriptions given by Jesuits of those very same missions, for their rich furnishings and splendor. However on the "roundup" we find very little reference to the Lay Brothers of the Jesuits, and these are the men whom were largely responsible for the "work" of any particular mission, be it herding the cattle, hoeing the corn or working in the mines.

We do not have any list of names of the Lay Brothers who were assigned to work in Mexico. The few who are mentioned are rare exceptions. These men were not required to wear a "habit" or uniform of any kind, and would be most unlikely to be arrested in the great "roundup" which the Jesuits would have us believe were so efficient as to resemble a lightning strike, when the reality was both tragic and far from "lightning" like in execution. So, considering that these Lay Brothers were the men most probably directly involved with the mines, what did they do when the expulsion order happened?

Here is one example of a Jesuit Novitiate, and what he did when the Order was expelled from his province;

Ambrose Fernandes (1551-16-22) was born in Portugal and went to India in 1571 to make his fortune. He served in the Portuguese army in Salsette, India, and worked with several merchants in Goa and Macao. While traveling for one of them, he feared his ship would sink during a singularly vicious storm and he vowed he would enter the Jesuits if he survived. He did, and entered the novitiate in Nagasaki as a brother in January 1579. He took care of material needs at the Jesuit community, but went undercover when the Jesuits were expelled. He was arrested with Father Spinola and imprisoned for 13 months before being martyred.

<from http://www.sjweb.info/Jesuits/saintShow.cfm?SaintID=25 "Jesuit Saints and Blesseds" a website OF the Society of Jesus.>

Now this is not in Mexico of course, but is an example of a Jesuit brother <not a Padre, as he was still a Novitiate> who was "taking care of material needs" and who simply went undercover when the suppression happened in the province he was stationed in, in this case Japan.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

Dearf Oroblanco;
Your last statement is REALLY trying to read between the lines. In this particular case, there are no lines to read between if you happen to know a bit about Roman Catholic religious Orders.

First, Blessed Ambrose Fernandes entered the notivate as a lay BROTHER, which means that he was did NOT enter the Society in order to eventually be ordained as a priest. In order for that to have happened, Blessed Ambrose Fernandes would have needed to have attended Jesuit University for a minium of 16 years. We know from the dates of his birth and also his martyrdom that he was destined to remain as a Jesuit Brother throughout his life.

Next, Blessed Ambrose Fernandes "took care of material needs at the Jesuit community". In other words, Blessed Ambrose Fernandes did all the manual labor and tasks associated with communal life in a mission, ie, weeding the gardening, washing dishes, sweep the floors, etc. "Taking care of the material needs" is Roman Catholic code talk within the Orders, meaning someone who does all the grunt work or the chores. This particular phrase is used extensively when describing lay monks and nuns within the Roman Catholic Church. It has no hidden meanings, nor does it mean that the lay Brothers were committing crimes or sins or doing anything secretive or immoral.

Because the Jesuit priests were devoted to providing for the spiritual needs of the mission, this left the lay Brothers to attend to the material needs of the mission. It's just a politeway of stating that the person attending to the material needs was uneducated and was a laborer. It means nothing more than this, so that particular sentence does need to be typed out in bold type, underlined or placed in italics.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Seasons greetings,
Among the named mines, the Salero is one that we have mentioned, it is located in what is the Tyndall district, which is also the site of several old Jesuit mines. Referring to this district, <Tyndall> which includes the Salero, Alto, Wandering Jew, Montosa and several others, what does Mindat.org have to say?

A Pb-Ag-Zn-Cu-Au mining area located in T.21-23S., R.14-15E., on the western slope of the southern part of the Santa Rita Mountains, south of the high peaks of the range, and about 65 miles south from Tucson. This is the largest and one of the most highly mineralized districts of the area. It joins the Old Baldy District on the south and west and is almost wholly in Santa Cruz County. It extends from Madera Canyon, near White House, and the county line on the north, southward to Sonoita Creek, a distance of 18 miles, and from the crest of the range on the east to the foot of the mountains and Grosvenor Hills, 6 miles distant on the west. The district contains about 110 square miles. A small part of it south of the Salero Camp is still spoken of as the Aztec District and includes the old Aztec Mine and some of the surrounding country.

The topography is varied and generally rough. The surface in the northern part of the district rises to Mount Hopkins, 8,072 feet, and Old Baldy, 9,432 feet in elevation. On the west the northern part of the border declines to 3,500 feet and the southern part to 4,000 feet. In the southwestern part of the district the general regularity in the slopes is interrupted by an irregular benchlike mass of hills, the Grosvenor Hills, averaging about 5,000 feet in elevation.

The district is occupied principally by a north-south belt of quartz diorite and quartz monzonite several miles wide on the east, bordered by granite on the north and overlian and flanked by the tertiary volcanic rocks, chiefly andesite, rhyolite, and quartz latite porphyry, on the west. In the northwestern part of the district, in the Montosa-Caliente region, there is a relatively small belt of the underlying Paleozoic shales and limestones.

Mineral deposits were first discovered in the district in the later part of the seventeenth century by the Jesuit missionaries, who worked the Salero, Montosa, and other mines.. American activities began in the middle and late 1850's.

Another source which attributes several mines of Santa Cruz county (Arizona, in this same Tyndall district) to the Jesuits;

It is not known generally that the area embraced now within the of Santa Cruz County Arizona was the seat of the earliest known on the Pacific Slope of the United States but such is historic fact Without doubt the first and earliest mining in these was done by the Jesuits who founded a chain of missions in the of the Santa Cruz River and farther south in Mexico According to La Historia del Nayarit account of the labors of the Society of Jesus in Sempitronial America which work was written by Fra Ortega one of that order and at Barcelona Spain about 1754 Father Eusebio Kino ...

According to the history of that time and the records of the mission now preserved in Spain the friars at Tumacacori discovered and wrought RICH SILVER MINES in the Santa Rita Mountains to the northeast and in the Atascosa Mountains on the southwest The Salero mines and other properties in the Santa Ritas are known to have been operated by the friars and in places vestiges of their workings are found yet today In recent years a party from California having a plat or map with a written description of the location said to have come from the archives of the old mission has been searching in the Atascosa Mountains for an abandoned mine that the record they have tells of having been exploited by the friars. Those operations are established to have been inaugurated very shortly after completion of the Mission church and cloister at Tumacacori in 1688 So there is presented the record of the FIRST MINING done on ih& Paccfic side of the Uniied States. But the Jesuft priests and missionaries were not the only miners

The ALTO MINES present an extensive development and have been very richly productive. The ground included was among the early discoveries of the Jesuits who are said to have continued operations in their primitive and desultory way rather steadily for about 150 years Their facilities for development ore extraction and reduction were crude and ineffective Drill steel and blasting powder were unknown With rough iron bars they drilled to depths of several feet into the rocks large round holes several inches in diameter which were filled with lime plugged securely and water poured in The swelling lime rent the rocks and when thrown out of place they were broken further with hammers That process necessarily must have been slow and painful Ores were packed to the surface on the backs of men carrying rude rawhide buckets climbing out of shafts on rude ladders poles with notches cut into them Ores were smelted in rude reverberatory furnaces that were made from adobe and after reduction the lead and silver were separated by a rude cupelation in the same furnace In other regions where the ores carried gold and silver only the rock was milled with mercury in arrastras and the amalgam retorted crudely Processes so crude were slow and laborious They were possible only with a laboring population but little better than slaves with wants limited and contented with a bare subsistence The property is located in the Salero region about eight miles east from the Santa Cruz River at Tumacacori where are to be seen the ruins of the mission that was the home of the mining monks

SALERO MINES About three miles south from the Alto are antiguas also wrought by the Jesuits long long ago and it was one of the first to which attention was turned after American occupation sixty years ago there clustering about it traditions of some of the tragedies of Apache hate and ferocity Until recent years it was in operation a steady producer of high grade lead and silver ores but the death of the chief owners following each other closely some years ago caused suspension of operations and the property stands idle

<source: COUNTY RESOURCE SERIES No 1 SEPT 26 1916 SANTA CRUZ COUNTY ARIZONA THE OLDEST MINING REGION OF RECORD ON THE PACIFIC OF THE UNITED STATES By Allen T Bird University of Arizona >

I put one sentence in bold italics to bring it to your attention - that records exist in Spain to confirm the Jesuits mining activities here. I can't afford to make the trip, nor justify that expense for the sake of settling an online argument, but perhaps you know someone who resides there and could check for you, if doubts still persist.

Still think the stories of Jesuit mines and treasures are all just legends made up by treasure writers, dear readers?

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
According to the history of that time and the records of the mission now preserved in Spain the friars at Tumacacori discovered and wrought RICH SILVER MINES in the Santa Rita Mountains to the northeast and in the Atascosa Mountains on the southwest The Salero mines and other properties in the Santa Ritas are known to have been operated by the friars and in places vestiges of their workings are found yet today In recent years a party from California having a plat or map with a written description of the location said to have come from the archives of the old mission has been searching in the Atascosa Mountains for an abandoned mine that the record they have tells of having been exploited by the friars. Those operations are established to have been inaugurated very shortly after completion of the Mission church and cloister at Tumacacori in 1688 So there is presented the record of the FIRST MINING done on ih& Paccfic side of the Uniied States. But the Jesuft priests and missionaries were not the only miners


The Jesuits are Brothers and not Friars. Only the mendicant Orders uses the title of Friar. All others, including the Jesuits, use the title Brother, however this is only applicable is the person being addressed is/was not an ordained clergyman. If ordained, then that person would be correctly titled as Father. Once more, we can attribute this discrepency as shoddy research on someone's part. Not on your part, of course as you did not pen the original article, but someone is to blame for this grievious error. It also gives cause for one to wonder what other sorts of errors and mistakes were committed?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

According to many in the Dutch Hunting Community, I discovered Harry LaFrance's Cave Of Gold Bars on the north side and below Superstition Peak, in 2005. It is said that myself and a small team (six men) removed a fortune of gold bullion from the cave and moved it out of the mountains to a small mine we had purchased for storage. The location of that mine is being kept secret for obvious reasons.

Since then, most of the gold has been sold to anonymous parties, but the records of that sale are being held in a bank vault in Switzerland, along with most of the funds from the sales.

In Apache Junction this is common knowledge and has been for five years now. It is the accepted "history" for the locals, yet it has not been made public knowledge until now. For proof, I can provide pictures of the cave, as well as the gold bars that were removed.

The site has been visited by many treasure hunters and it is well known. In the back of the cave, were stacks of paintings, painted by Ted DeGrazia. There was also a life size, solid gold, statue of a Jesuit priest, which was sold to a private collector.

The Mexican collector who purchased the Jesuit statue, had it authenticated by the well known archaeologist, Felipe R. Solis Olguin. At some point in time, he intends to donate it to the National Anthropology Museum in Mexico City. All of the records of authentication are sealed until the statue is donated to the museum.

The six foot solid gold cross was buried nearby. It came from the Jesuit Mission in the canyon below the cave/mine. I am at work now, but when I get home I will post pictures of mission ruins.

The cave of gold bars was a documented find, and has been mentioned in many books.

All of this information can be confirmed by Dale Provence, who is living somewhere in California on a large gated estate.

Beyond that, I firmly believe the above story is true.

Take care,

Joe