JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Yes, namely that the Spanish soldiers would have grabbed anything, like Mike said.

So to say that the King's men were not looking for "ornaments" is not an accurate depiction of what they were up to. They were looking for anything that had value of any kind.

................... and again ........................... they found NOTHING!

Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

................... and again ........................... they found NOTHING!

Mike

Mike,

When you say NOTHING! does that mean not one thing of value was found in the church's and missions, or simply
NO TREASURE?

Are there records of exactly what was found in each Jesuit building? The authorities would have required extensive accounting of the whole affair.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

They found nothing of what they were looking for. No treasure and no gold/silver church vestments as described by so many of the Jesuit Priests in their journals.

You seem to think it would have been easy for some Spanish Soldier or Policeman to grab up errant gold or silver laying around a Church/Mission. Its not like one or two soldiers were used to secure a building. The Spanish used a lot of overkill (like our police today) when they arrested the Jesuits. Every Cabecerra, Colegio, Church, Mission was swarming with people. Not that easy to hide things like plates, goblets, monstrances, ciboria, etc on one's person. Maybe something small like a gold/silver censer, but I would be willing to bet that since they were looking for treasure, whomever was in charge would be looking for people grabbing things for themselves.

Mike

 

[sailaway]

Ed you gave me an Idea and if you start out with Molina in Portuguese and translate it to Spanish you get "teólogo jesuíta espanhol".
Theology of Liberation, is a a radical liberation theology taught by the paperless Jesuits who refuse to be bound by, and not accepting silence, compromise or censorship from Rome. These theologians are exclaustrated of the Society of Jesus, but remain part of the flock? Most of what I have found of these persons seem to be the highest educated Jesuits, Doctors of Philosophy, Doctorates in law, Bachelors of Theology, Professor of Social Sciences at the Gregorian University, Professor at the Weston School of Theology at Cambridge,
Their belief that socialism with a human face is very difficult, and capitalism with a human face is impossible. Sensitivity for the victims of inhuman economic system was ontological.
According to the Vatican authorities, Height uses a theological method which subordinates the contents of the faith to the acceptance of postmodern culture. And replaced with symbols objective realities defined by the articles of the Creed. therefore emptied of contents capital truths of the Christian faith, such as the pre-existence of the Word, the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, the salvific value of the death Jesus, the uniqueness and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus and the Church, the resurrection of Jesus. He is preparing a new written response to send to the Holy See. At the Vatican are seriously concerned about this case. Not considered at all confined to academic circles. In January 2007, Paul Lakeland, professor at Fairfield University issued a passionate defense of Roger Haight's thought, under the title "Not So Heterodox, In Defense of Roger Haight ".
Highly esteemed theologian, Paul Lakeland, professor at Fairfield University in Connecticut, one of 28 colleges run by the Jesuits in the United States, and the first holder of the chair of Catholic studies at the university in charge of the theologian Jesuit Aloysius P. Kelley. Meanwhile, other American theologians have expressed severe criticism of Haight, who for some years was also president of the Catholic Theological Society of America. Among the critics William Loewe, of the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC, and John Cavadini, University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana, also a director of the doctrinal commission of the Conference of Bishops of the United States are counted. Another critic points out that Haight is a Jesuit and teaches at a university in the Society of Jesus, says Gerald O'Collins, professor of systematic theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, a specialist in Christology.
Another is John P. Masia, Spain Provincial of the Society of Jesus, when the Universidad Pontificia Comillas took the decision to withdraw the charge entrusted to him the direction of the Department of Bioethics, "adding later that "still evaluating the long intellectual and pastoral path of P. Masia, both in Japan and in Spain, the Society of Jesus, with pain, but consistent with its responsibility to serve the Church feels the need to publicly express their disagreement with the content of such opinions and the ways in which some of them have been exposed. " About the publication of his book, "Gatherings of Bioethics", the provincial authority of the Company states that "became church without proper licenses and edition of the same work in Editorial Trotta it as it is announced, will appear shortly, does not have the required authorization from their superiors."
The Church does not agree with his controversial opinions accepting the use of condoms and manipulation of embryos contained in his book.

Vatican punishes Jon Sobrino, the leading liberation theologian
The record includes a prohibition of teaching in Catholic institutions Nephew is professor of Central American University of El Salvador and the withdrawal of nulla osta (seen ecclesial good) to his works. Notification from the Congregation of the Holy See in Rome-an exceptional measure in more than 40 years has only been used against eleven other theologians and religious is based on the defense of human nature Nephew of Jesus, forgetting highlight his role divine. In his work "is aware of the humanity of Jesus Christ, but not of his divinity," archbishop of San Salvador, Fernando Saenz said.
http://elpais.com/diario/2007/03/13/sociedad/1173740402_850215.html

"Inquisition SA"
Dear José Manuel Against the vice of secret information is virtue. For transparency, inform him publicly, in an open letter on the attempts of the "Inquisition SA" against this blog. (Note:.'s not a errata instead of SJ fact is SA, or corporation Anonymity usually characterize terrorists authorship). few months ago, the Superior of the Jesuits in Japan showed me a letter from Fr. Elias ROYON , provincial of Spain , who conveyed him episcopal complaints about my writing. He told me that there was no problem of orthodoxy, but the malaise by some "sensitivities" and it was recommended that I avoid prudence and jokes with mitered. (You know very well, as a journalist, that this country, it allows you to spend all the saints jokes and anecdotes that tell about the Trinity, but woe to anyone who dares to treat the bishops with humor!). Last month, Fr. Sumita returned to inform me about pressures on him to convince him to silence me, and agreed to show posts to an impartial third person to examine whether this was something untoward that could disturb the fragile sensibilities of a miter. seems But it was not enough since, according to reliable sources, keep multiplying complaints from Madrid to Tokyo . They come from what we might call, for lack of a better euphemism, a "part of the ecclesiastical authorities of a part of the political and religiously Spanish state closely identified with neo-conservative currents." My top Japanese want, of course, maintain a good relationship with both Spanish episcopate, as with their Spanish colleagues in the government order, so advise me, prudent and conciliadoramente, I reduce my journalistic activities in Japan.
http://www.ihu.unisinos.br/noticias...o-blog-do-teologo-jesuita-espanhol-juan-masia

Gatherings of Bioethics by John P. Masia
Jesus Symbol of God (1999) by Roger Haight
The Dark Side of Christianity (1983) by José María Díez-Alegría
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/213869?sp=y
https://www.aciprensa.com/noticias/compania-de-jesus-en-desacuerdo-con-po
http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2010/06/25/actualidad/1277416801_850215.html

Could there have been one of these Jesuits in Sonora when they were Expelled? Being as they were claimed to not be part of the Catholic church, would not be rounded up? Could it be that The Jesuit Illuminati were the ones who planted the Idea that formed the Freedom of the U.S.? "Give me Liberty or give me Death" comes to mind for me. Think about it the Suppression of the Jesuits and the Birth of the United states happened when?

 

[deducer]

So, sometime between 1764 (when the French Suppressed their Jesuits) and the night of 25-26 June 1767, all this ORNAMENTAL WEALTH that was admitted to by the Jesuits disappeared. The only things that the Spanish got were the things that could not be hidden: Land, Buildings, Cattle, Horses, Sheep, Crops, etc.

I wanted to emphasize the point Mike brings up about the French expulsion of the Jesuits from the Louisiana territory in 1763, and this is something I had mentioned before, and of which is very relevant as far as the "church ornaments" discussion going on here. Joe doesn't seem to think the "church ornaments" would have been important to the King's men, but history shows otherwise in this excerpt from Sacrifice and Survival: Identity, Mission, and Jesuit Higher Education in the American South by Eric Platt:



And the Jesuits of the Pimeria Alta were most certainly aware of this (especially the claiming of all "ornaments and sacred vessels,") and probably felt that it was only a matter of time before history repeated itself. I believe this to be a big reason why the Spanish were unable to turn up anything of value in 1767.

Everything was gone by then.

 

[somehiker]

Tom K. has written a couple of interesting articles about the topic and local lore.....3 and 4 issues back

Click on the issue, then enter 7 in the page box, then hit enter to go to Tom's article.

e-Book Viewer

 

[UncleMatt]

So if you were running mines you weren't supposed to be running, and found out your whole religious order was likely to be thrown out soon, what would be your course of action? To me it appears there are only two options: 1) You send what you have hoarded to areas that you know will remain under your control 2) You hide what you have hoarded in a secret location nearby so you can hopefully retrieve it later.

If the hoards are as large as many people think, there would have been logistical clues to observers when the hoard was moved, if it was indeed moved all at once. So whether it was sent to another country OR secreted nearby, it would have had to be done in small shipments, not anything large enough to attract attention or questions from observers. I honestly question the ability to move such a hoard in small shipments over the long distances to other countries, though this may indeed have happened. It seems much more likely to me that the hoards were simply hidden nearby by the Jesuits. And has been pointed out earlier, many (if not all) of the Jesuit Fathers who had knowledge of these cache sites likely died in the expulsion process.

To me it seems the mines would be the best places to look for such hoards, as the Jesuits might have already been using them for storage to begin with. So you move all the church ornaments of value to the mine, and cover the entrance. The mines should be the main focus to search for Jesuit treasures in my opinion, as you will probably find what they hoarded in those mines, as well as the missing church ornaments.

 

[cactusjumper]

Yes, namely that the Spanish soldiers would have grabbed anything, like Mike said.

So to say that the King's men were not looking for "ornaments" is not an accurate depiction of what they were up to. They were looking for anything that had value of any kind.

deducer,

I think "ornaments" would not correctly describe anything the soldiers were looking for. The seats in the church would have value (of any kind) but don't believe they would have removed those. A small crucifix hanging on a wall might be considered an ornament.

TREASURE is the key word here.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

It also occurred to me, you would want to hide the evidence that showed you had been illegally mining as well, so you would have even more motivation to cover and hide all such mines. And since you were doing so anyway, why dig more holes when you have a big one right in front of you that you are about to fill in? And as soon as the slaves finish that work, they get the blade in the night. Then only a very few people know that location.

 

[deducer]

I think "ornaments" would not correctly describe anything the soldiers were looking for. The seats in the church would have value (of any kind) but don't believe they would have removed those. A small crucifix hanging on a wall might be considered an ornament.

A small crucifix on the wall doesn't exactly constitute a "well-adorned" church.

 

[deducer]

And as soon as the slaves finish that work, they get the blade in the night. Then only a very few people know that location.

Do you think the Jesuits would have done such a thing? Have you come across anything suggesting that sort of thing happened?

 

[UncleMatt]

I knew this question was coming, and I don't know. Perhaps coadjutors were given that unseemly task. If they did not, then what was to prevent the people who did the labor from coming back later and digging everything up? Surely the Jesuits understood this. So when presented with the choice of having a few natives killed or losing their entire hoard with no chance of recovery, I wonder what choice they would have made...

Its also possible they closed the mines through their own labor. A lot of mines are on hills where one could get stuff to come down fairly easily. I'm more full of conjecture than anything I can prove on this.

 

[gollum]

I knew this question was coming, and I don't know. Perhaps coadjutors were given that unseemly task. If they did not, then what was to prevent the people who did the labor from coming back later and digging everything up? Surely the Jesuits understood this. So when presented with the choice of having a few natives killed or losing their entire hoard with no chance of recovery, I wonder what choice they would have made...

Its also possible they closed the mines through their own labor. A lot of mines are on hills where one could get stuff to come down fairly easily. I'm more full of conjecture than anything I can prove on this.

Matt,

I will say that you are 100% wrong on this note. The Jesuits did not murder the people that helped them. The Indians were/are quite superstitious. If they were told that the swag belonged to the Church and to God ONLY! They should guard the secret with their lives. I bet 99% of the Indians would have done just that. Occasionally, the grandson of one of those Indians is down on his luck, and sometimes in response to a kindness done for them, they give out the secret passed down in their family regarding a treasure lost in time.

You should get a few of the many books of treasure stories (Fish, Conroe, Penn, etc), and count the number that start with someone doing something nice for an Indian that tells the person about when their grandfather was young, that he worked for the Black Robes in a mine or burying treasure. He tells the white person the story as he heard it growing up. There are a lot of those stories floating around. Maybe they exist for a reason!

Mike

 

[gollum]

I knew this question was coming, and I don't know. Perhaps coadjutors were given that unseemly task. If they did not, then what was to prevent the people who did the labor from coming back later and digging everything up? Surely the Jesuits understood this. So when presented with the choice of having a few natives killed or losing their entire hoard with no chance of recovery, I wonder what choice they would have made...

Its also possible they closed the mines through their own labor. A lot of mines are on hills where one could get stuff to come down fairly easily. I'm more full of conjecture than anything I can prove on this.

Matt,

I will say that you are 100% wrong on this note. The Jesuits did not murder the people that helped them. The Indians were/are quite superstitious. If they were told that the swag belonged to the Church and to God ONLY! They should guard the secret with their lives. I bet 99% of the Indians would have done just that. Occasionally, the grandson of one of those Indians is down on his luck, and sometimes in response to a kindness done for them, they give out the secret passed down in their family regarding a treasure lost in time.

You should get a few of the many books of treasure stories (Fish, Conroe, Penn, etc), and count the number that start with someone doing something nice for an Indian that tells the person about when their grandfather was young, that he worked for the Black Robes in a mine or burying treasure. He tells the white person the story as he heard it growing up. There are a lot of those stories floating around. Maybe they exist for a reason!\

I would believe that before I believed a Jesuit Priest murdered a bunch of peasant Indians.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gullyoto: the map to the main deposit at Tayopa lists, among other things, 180 bodies

 

[Oroblanco]

Just would add that while I agree that the mines might be a logical site to look for the hidden valuables of the Jesuit missions, the recorded instances as in father Kino and Keller, hid the treasures in caves not mines. Also, several of the mines have been found over the years, and did not have stashes of treasure in them even when sealed and hidden. So mines might not be the best spot to hunt for, caves might be.

Also, I think we are into a grey zone here defining what exactly the Spanish authorities were hunting for. What you or I might consider that they would look for, may not match what they actually looked for. We do not know for certain if they were given exact descriptions of the items they were to look for, so it is quite possible that something like a solid silver statue of the Madonna, worth a considerable fortune, would be something they would want to seize. Or perhaps they would pass it up and allow that it is simply a "church ornament" not to be touched - we simply do not know what was in their minds, their conception of what they sought, nor their verbal directions from their officers.

I would also reiterate that SOME small amounts of treasure were indeed found in a Jesuit mission, in Baja; it was only some gold dust and silver bullion, but was concealed inside a mission itself and not declared as required by law. So it is not entirely accurate to say that nothing was found, for some was found, however not in the arrest and expulsion for it took some time before this was found (over a month if memory serves).

One last point here but father Och's account of the Spanish authorities search, while most entertaining for his sarcasm, is not an accurate description of the search activities at any of the frontier missions. In fact NO search was done at all, in many cases there was not even an inventory done until the Franciscan padres arrived to replace the Jesuits nearly a year later, and it was reported at the time that many things had been looted or simply vanished. So we might imagine Spanish troops holding their noses while rooting around in the cesspool of the mission at Tubac, yet nothing like that occurred there and even the roundup was simply a call sent to the padres to come in. There was significant opportunity for orders to have been given by the padres to conceal and safekeep the treasures and ornaments at many of the missions in the frontier areas.

Please do continue, just seems that some misconceptions are at work here among us, especially concerning the frontier missions where there was NO "sting" type operation rounding up the padres, nor ANY search executed for any treasures at these missions we usually refer to. Which is not to say that other people might have sneaked into the vacant mission churches to loot and pillage with the padres gone, at the risk of being killed by the resident Indians, just that this was not the official Spanish actions.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Gullyoto: the map to the main deposit at Tayopa lists, among other things, 180 bodies

This is still something I would have to see to believe. I know the Jesuits plotted regicides (Gunpowder Plot 1604 and the Tavora Affair 1758), but I will still give them the benefit of the doubt in a subject like this. I have a very hard time believing Jesuit Men of God would willingly murder poor Indians (especially by the hundreds). Maybe if you said they sexually abused the Indians, I might be more inclined to believe it. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Freudian slip Gully ? el burro mesa

 

[sailaway]

The way to understand what Jesuits say or write would be to have a Jesuit Dictionary of terms and words used by or about them. These things are not found in the Dictionaries we use.
www.rcurtis.com/glossary.doc

“Corporation of the Catholic Gentlemen of Maryland.” A group organized and incorporated during the time of the Suppression that was entrusted with land, etc. of Georgetown. They were also the Corporation of the Roman Catholic Clergymen. “The Roman Catholic Gentlemen of Maryland” is the official corporate title of the Maryland Province.
www.rcurtis.com/glossary.doc

Is this what I was referring to about the ideals of Liberation that formed the United States in my last post?
Could we say that the Jesuits were the Fathers of Liberty?
Notice that Washington D.C. is built on their land.
Could the Treasures we seek be hidden among the warehouses of the Smithsonian?

Exclaustration. Permission to live outside a Jesuit community for a specified length of time - not more than three years. You remain a religious, and under a superior.

 

[sailaway]

Did General James Wilkinson have ties to the Jesuits when he was Agent 13 in the Spanish Secret Service?

"calculated to make a Napoleonic marshal look drab as a Jesuit."
www.barnesandnoble.com/review/an-artist-in-treason

"'He did not know what other things his wife did' (Or did he?) ... In 1801 the Spanish governor of Texas interrogated Gertrudis de Los Santos and ... Geremias Longueville, all accused of secret conspiracy with Felipe ...... two were working with Philip Nolan, friend of American General James Wilkinson
http://colonialseminar.uga.edu/Carla Gerona Article.pdf

http://wlym.com/archive/campaigner/8304.pdf

his arrival at Havana, with Father Butler, the President of the Jesuit College. ..... Spanish plot of which General Wilkinson was supposed to have been the head.
http://archive.org/stream/pollockgenealogy00hayd/pollockgenealogy00hayd_djvu.txt

secret treaty, in 1765, through obedience to an order of Louis XV, to Spain

Vatican Assassins: “Wounded In The House Of My Friends”
The Diabolical History of The Society of Jesus
http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/Eric Jon Phelps - Vatican Assassins.pdf

and Gollum thinks they would not kill Indians

As the cardinals were convening to choose a new pope, four people were indicted for the murder of Roberto Calvi, a former Vatican financial adviser and member of the infamous P-2 lodge. This placed the Vatican banking scandals of the ’70’s and ’80’s onto the investigative front burner. In addition, a U.S. court re-instated a law*suit against the Vatican Bank for harboring Nazi loot from World War II and using it to aid the flight of Nazi fugitives. This suit also placed the longtime Vatican collaboration with the Third Reich into the foreground.
http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-508-the-vatican-rag-part-ii-der-panzerkardinal/