JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Sailaway if I am not mistaked those are grain mills not ore grinders

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Unc, in effect we know of three, working on one, location proven by an old map, access 'no'. Very slow since we have an extreme;y small budget. Although you are missing a huge one, the one at Victorio Peak / Caballo mts..

Whether they acknowledge it or not, it is predominately Jesuit.

 

[markmar]

deducer

You wrote as a motive for Jesuit mining :

One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church.

I believe this quote expresses just a person's feelings . You mean how he was implying something else ?

 

[sailaway]

Jose, yes the ones in the picture are, but still the same system for grinding.

 

[deducer]

deducer

You wrote as a motive for Jesuit mining :

I believe this quote expresses just a person's feelings . You mean how he was implying something else ?

Not just a motive for mining, but for acquiring and possessing what we today would call "treasures" in order to adorn their church or mission, with the idea that it would inspire and elevate those who entered. And we have many, many instances in which this was the case, both in the Southwest and elsewhere.

And no, it wasn't simply someone's feeling, it was pretty much a precept declared by St. Ignatius and a vision that was very clearly followed by the old-school Jesuits.

One only needs to look inside their mother church to be reminded of his declaration:

 

[deducer]

No, ANY valuable treasure metals found in New Spain would have come FROM a mine. Now Jesuit treasure could have been hidden in a mine, but any such treasure would have had to be mined and processed before that could occur. Either way, finding the mine is key to finding the Jesuit treasure, yes? And its not 100% because of lack of verifiable evidence: a large Jesuit treasure trove being found and documented. When THAT happens, abra cadaver, it will be 100%...

It didn't have to necessarily come from a Jesuit mine. There were many items that were commissioned out of Mexico City, be they religious statues, carvings, paintings, and then sent northward, and I am sure the raw materials came from everywhere.

As a matter of fact, I believe that their commissioning religious artifacts out of precious metals by themselves or CAs, on a large scale afforded them a good loophole to avoid having to deduct a portion of said articles towards the King's 5th.

Far easier to commandeer a chunk of ingot as tax, than a chunk of a religious statue. Imagine the uproar if the latter were attempted.

It would not surprise me if that was how the old school Jesuits attempted to create a surplus of wealth.

 

[markmar]

deducer

You believe how only the Mother Jesuit church is well adorned ? All the Christian churches are well adorned and all the ornaments , pictures and the other stuff , are donations . You have inspected the inventory of the Mother Jesuit church to see from where came the ornaments , etc. ? You believe they just put them there without to could explain their provenance ?
But again , just assumptions based on a feeling .
I don't say how the Jesuits have not treasures or how they were not involved in mining . I say how St Ignatius phrase is not a " line " on which the Order should walk .

 

[deducer]

deducer

You believe how only the Mother Jesuit church is well adorned ? All the Christian churches are well adorned and all the ornaments , pictures and the other staff , are donations . You have inspected the inventory of the Mother Jesuit church to see from where came the ornaments , etc. ? You believe they just put them there without to could explain their provenance ?
But again , just assumptions based on a feeling .
I don't say how the Jesuits have not treasures or how they were not involved in mining . I say how St Ignatius phrase is not a " line " on which the Order should walk .

See here, here, and here.

Looks like they did a pretty good job of carrying out his vision that a Jesuit church shall be well-adorned.

The Jesuits were just one of the many orders that answered to the Catholic church, yet the beauty of their church rivals any other in Rome.

 

[markmar]

deducer

I see you had little help , but I can show you many churches with similar or more impressive ornaments , and are not Jesuit .
If you are a magician and you can see a vision in every phrase which anybody says , then tell me , which my vision is when I say : " I shall say how I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter in a ruined church " .

Thank you in advance

 

[deducer]

deducer

I see you had little help , but I can show you many churches with similar or more impressive ornaments , and are not Jesuit .
If you are a magician and you can see a vision in every phrase which anybody says , then tell me , which my vision is when I say : " I shall say how I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter in a ruined church " .

Thank you in advance

I think you're missing the point here, Marius. We're not comparing churches, we're seeing if there's a reason for why the Jesuits would want to obtain or possess "treasures," and I think that question has been answered.

 

[Oroblanco]

deducer

I see you had little help , but I can show you many churches with similar or more impressive ornaments , and are not Jesuit .
If you are a magician and you can see a vision in every phrase which anybody says , then tell me , which my vision is when I say : " I shall say how I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter in a ruined church " .

Thank you in advance

Not to speak for our mutual amigo Deducer, as I see he has already answered you, but I would point out to you that some of these Jesuit churches are much more richly adorned than those of other Orders. The Iglesia de La Compania de Jesus in Quito, Ecuador, has some SEVEN TONS of gold on display in the interior.

Iglesia de La Compania de Jesus - Quito - Reviews of Iglesia de La Compania de Jesus - TripAdvisor

We have covered much of this before; the Jesuits owned some mines openly (although rather quietly, it seems, for the Jesuit sources never mention these legally owned mines) and the Order amassed wealth in virtually every place they operated. We can only surmise their reasons for wishing to accumulate so much wealth, the stated reason being to "adorn" their churches which is supposedly needed to impress the simple minds of natives, which if you think about it is rather odd since many Amerindian cultures could care less about gold and silver. There is some evidence of a plot to betray the Spanish American colonies to the Dutch and English, so perhaps the wealth was to be used as a sort of 'war chest' for it costs a lot of money to wage a rebellion but that is largely speculation. At any rate this habit of the Jesuits to gather as much wealth as possible is even referred to by the Pope in his order suppressing the Jesuits "forever" when he mentioned their "unfortunate tendency to acquisitiveness". I would like to see a church owned by any other Order of the Catholic Church, which has more than seven tons of gold on display.

If you have not read the entire thread I would recommend it even though it is now very long, as long as many books are, much information has been posted already.

Please do continue did not mean to interrupt,
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

deducer

I don't have missed any point . Our quest is if Jesuits had treasures and have hidden them and not if Jesuits had treasures and exposed them .
It's seems illogical from the one side to deny how were involved in mining and from the other side to adorn their churches with gold and silver . If the Padres could not to explain the provenance of that gold , after their expulsion all the ornaments were been confiscated by the Spanish .
As I wrote , or the ornaments are not gold but only other metals which look like ( or metals goldplated ) , or are donations from very rich people who lived in that era .
And to be clear , for me a human feeling and the church's ornaments , are not facts to prove how the Jesuits possessed treasures from mining . Both facts could be denied by logical explanation .

 

[deducer]

deducer

I don't have missed any point . Our quest is if Jesuits had treasures and have hidden them and not if Jesuits had treasures and exposed them .
It's seems illogical from the one side to deny how were involved in mining and from the other side to adorn their churches with gold and silver . If the Padres could not to explain the provenance of that gold , after their expulsion all the ornaments were been confiscated by the Spanish .
As I wrote , or the ornaments are not gold but only other metals which look like ( or metals goldplated ) , or are donations from very rich people who lived in that era. And to be clear , for me a human feeling and the church's ornaments , are not facts to prove how the Jesuits possessed treasures from mining . Both facts could be denied by logical explanation .

First, no ornaments were confiscated by the Spanish. When the expulsion was underway, they couldn't find anything. And you will recall Fr. Och's journals, in which he exults and mocks the frantic and futile search the Spanish soldiers undertook during the expulsion.

Second, the royal decree issued by King Charles III was never clear on the purpose for the expulsion, but it was not because of the gold or silver that adorned their missions/churches, or for the Jesuit's failure to document the "provenance of their gold."

And once again, when St. Ignatius stated that it was better to have a well-adorned church than a bare church, he was not expressing "a personal feeling," he was describing his vision of how the Jesuits were to build their churches, per Nentvig's Rudo Ensaya.

 

[markmar]

First, no ornaments were confiscated by the Spanish. When the expulsion was underway, they couldn't find anything. And you will recall Fr. Och's journals, in which he exults and mocks the frantic and futile search the Spanish soldiers undertook during the expulsion.

Second, the royal decree issued by King Charles III was never clear on the purpose for the expulsion, but it was not because of the gold or silver that adorned their missions/churches, or for the Jesuit's failure to document the "provenance of their gold."

And once again, when St. Ignatius stated that it was better to have a well-adorned church than a bare church, he was not expressing "a personal feeling," he was describing his vision of how the Jesuits were to build their churches, per Nentvig's Rudo Ensaya.

Is amazing how the logic is ignored to make facts to fit in your opinion . I don't understand your mindset . At least , Ok , go on . For you works , for me not .

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm more interested in covering new ground on this topic than simply rehashing stuff we've already covered. But the problem is we have limited evidence to work with that comes from documents and stories. THAT means more of us need to get out in the field to discover new evidence to discuss. If you are unable to do so, please work with someone who can. Many, many people here have very valuable information that may be under utilized simply because they do not feel up to accessing difficult areas. Here is an idea: adopt an apprentice who can do the work now, and long after you are gone. Pass down what you have learned, if not here, to someone you can trust and work with. Nephews/nieces & grandchildren are great for that! But lets start uncovering new evidence, not just rely on what has already been chewed up and swallowed many times.

A simple call to action.

 

[deducer]

Is amazing how the logic is ignored to make facts to fit in your opinion . I don't understand your mindset . At least , Ok , go on . For you works , for me not .

Please show me what logic I ignored.

Can you please give me an example or proof of this statement you made:

after their expulsion all the ornaments were been confiscated by the Spanish .

 

[markmar]

deducer

Maybe you don't read all the text which I wrote . I wrote : " If the Padres could not to explain the provenance of that gold , after their expulsion all the ornaments were been confiscated by the Spanish " .

Let's finish with this , don't leads somewhere .

 

[deducer]

deducer

Maybe you don't read all the text which I wrote . I wrote : " If the Padres could not to explain the provenance of that gold , after their expulsion all the ornaments were been confiscated by the Spanish " .

Let's finish with this , don't leads somewhere .

The best sense I can make out of what you wrote is this: "If the Padres could not explain the provenance of the (ornaments) they had, after the expulsion, these ornaments were confiscated by the Spanish."

So, clearly, such a thing must have happened since you stated that "the ornaments (were) confiscated by the Spanish."

I am asking you to back this statement with any examples or proof that you may have, which led you to make such a premise.

 

[sailaway]

deducer wrote:
the royal decree issued by King Charles III was never clear on the purpose for the expulsion, but it was not because of the gold or silver that adorned their missions/churches, or for the Jesuit's failure to document the "provenance of their gold."

The King may not have been clear as why the expulsion happened as there may actually be some truth in what the Jusuits were caught doing in Spain. When the Two Jesuits were caught carrying papers that claimed proof of King Charles as an illegitimate heir to the throne. The King had the papers declared as forgeries but were they? Would a ******* half brother not sired by the king not be an Illegitimate heir? including all descendants of this non royal blood kin?
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4217566
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4162858
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4029185

 

[Oroblanco]

The King may not have been clear as why the expulsion happened as there may actually be some truth in what the Jusuits were caught doing in Spain. When the Two Jesuits were caught carrying papers that claimed proof of King Charles as an illegitimate heir to the throne. The King had the papers declared as forgeries but were they? Would a ******* half brother not sired by the king not be an Illegitimate heir? including all descendants of this non royal blood kin?
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4217566
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4162858
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4029185

Well the expulsion order from the King mentions that he has "reasons" that he chooses to keep "in his royal mind" rather than make public, so we can never know the full story. As to the legitimacy of the king, was it reasonable for the Jesuits to get thus involved in politics? Shouldn't they have supported the king, and not raised issues of his birthright?

Side thing but I could not get any of the links in your last post to work, not sure what the issue is?

Please do continue,
Oroblanco