JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Don't believe the King's men were looking for church "ornaments".

Good luck,

Joe

 

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[sailaway]

Why are the Jesuits involved in so many political scandals?
http://libro.uca.edu/lea1/1lea1.pdf
The History of the Jesuits in England, 1580-1773 - Ethelred Luke Taunton - Google Books
https://www.academia.edu/511590/_Cl..._of_Colonial_Peru_Lingua_Franca_February_2000
Babington Plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gunpowder Plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Popish Plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Category: France - Jesuit Restoration 1814
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Suppression of the Jesuits (1770-1773) The Suppression of the Jesuits (1750-1773)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41766/41766-h/41766-h.htm
http://www.toughissues.org/the jesuit oder.htm
http://monash.edu/library/collections/exhibitions/restoration/xrstcat.html
THE RESTORATION 1660-1700 An Exhibition of Books from the Monash University Library Rare Book Collection

 

[deducer]

Well the expulsion order from the King mentions that he has "reasons" that he chooses to keep "in his royal mind" rather than make public, so we can never know the full story. As to the legitimacy of the king, was it reasonable for the Jesuits to get thus involved in politics? Shouldn't they have supported the king, and not raised issues of his birthright?

Side thing but I could not get any of the links in your last post to work, not sure what the issue is?

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Roy,

I think Sailaway copied the responses to the messages he wanted to quote, rather than the messages themselves, by mistake.

 

[deducer]

Don't believe the King's men were looking for church "ornaments".

Good luck,

Joe

Yet, we find in the royal decree, the following phrase:

"all troops, militia or civilian, shall render the necessary assistance (in expelling the Jesuits), without any delay or evasion."

This is in curious contrast to the facts we know:

All the orders to be dispatched at home and abroad were sealed in envelopes and instructions were sent that no envelope was to opened under pain of death until the evening of April 2, 1767

Once opened, the governors and members of the Spanish milita found that they were to summarily and quickly eject the Jesuits on the night of June 25, 1767.

Prior to opening the sealed orders, only four men of the Extraordinary Council for King Charles III knew of the content of these letters in addition to the king, himself.

So why the hurry up and wait? Why the extreme stealth? Why were the Jesuits not simply ejected outright, as soon as the Extraordinary Council reached their conclusion?

 

[UncleMatt]

The way they did it was probably intended to minimize the Jesuits' ability to destroy evidence and hide gold and silver. The way they did it WAS outright, they just didn't have rapid forms of communication to depend upon.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Try nipping an insurrection in the bud, If the kings men knew where the different Jesuits were to arrest them, they also knew what they were up to. The Priests had no place to run to, so the only logical reason was to nip an insurrection plot in the bud - catch all of the leaders at once.

Incidentally they 'were' plotting with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain . The mission Priest probably wasn't involved, but he was expendable

 

[sailaway]

yes deducer, the links were for the actual post not for the responses. I will have to learn the way that it works properly. I volunteer to be someones apprentice! I like the idea UncleMatt! The thing is I find it hard to give up sailing the oceans, just like keeping track of the Volvo ocean race that started Saturday. I am not in this for the treasure but the history, and setting the history straight, because until the place is uncovered there is no value in the treasure. The thing is the site seems to be covered up and removing the stones over the entrance would be illegal with out the state and Feds being involved. It possibly could take thousands of years to let it naturally erode where the tunnel is exposed? Maybe we should keep doing a rain dance to wash the debris away? However the stones that weigh tons would have to be blown up?
Remember also that it would be very difficult even today for the local militia to arrest their own Pastors of Religion. These being the same fellows that yesterday you confessed your sins to.
Native American version of timeline:
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-timeline.html
Why were the Spanish looking over Queen Creek Valley and Picket Post Mountain for Spanish Gold Treasure in 1860?
http://www.barriozona.com/superior_arizona_historic_cultural_timeline.html

The Jesuit order entered Sonora and the Mayo country in 1613; by 1617 the Yaquis also wished to know more about the new techniques. They too were interested in such innovations as cattle, horses, fruit trees, and other temporal benefits. In the bargain, these people were converted to Christianity. By 1620 the Jesuits had moved their frontier into central Sonora, and the conquest of Sonora by Spain seemed assured. A conflict in jurisdictions occurred between 1635 and 1644, again slowing for a time the movement north. Pedro de Perea had managed to become governor of Sonora, with the provision that he established a colony there. Taking disappointed colonists from New Mexico who had not been provided with all the anticipated benefits of the overlordship of New Mexico, which had only begun as a Spanish colony in 1598, Perea moved with a few Spanish and mestizo families into Sonora, establishing himself at Tuape. He brought Franciscan missionaries with him to northern Sonora, which was the cause of some irritation to the Jesuits, who had regarded Sonora as their field of endeavor. After a five-year period, he viceroy felt that Perea was lagging in his efforts to colonize the area, so his governing of Sonora was ordered terminated. He had already died however. In 1644 the Jesuits were able to assume control of the missions in northern Sonora established by the Franciscans, and the Franciscans withdrew.
https://www.scgsgenealogy.com/free/media/los-angeles-under-the-spanish-flag-wmason.pdf

 

[cactusjumper]

Yet, we find in the royal decree, the following phrase:

This is in curious contrast to the facts we know:



Once opened, the governors and members of the Spanish milita found that they were to summarily and quickly eject the Jesuits on the night of June 25, 1767.

Prior to opening the sealed orders, only four men of the Extraordinary Council for King Charles III knew of the content of these letters in addition to the king, himself.

So why the hurry up and wait? Why the extreme stealth? Why were the Jesuits not simply ejected outright, as soon as the Extraordinary Council reached their conclusion?

deducer,

I don't see how your reply addressed my post. I admit to being somewhat dim these days, so perhaps you could explain how it was related to what I wrote.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I don't see how your reply addressed my post. I admit to being somewhat dim these days, so perhaps you could explain how it was related to what I wrote.

Thanks,

Joe

You stated:

Don't believe the King's men were looking for church "ornaments".

So I would like to know what you think they were looking for, in this excerpt from Father Och's journals:

Now the treasure hunt began. Every corner was searched in vain. Practically all bricks were torn loose from the floor of the procuratory; but no subterranean vaults were revealed. The garden was dug up, but neither buried jars nor chests were unearthed. Walls were tapped inside and out and as soon as the sound seemed to reveal a space it was broken in, but no sealed coin repositories were found.

Finally, it occurred to these miners that perhaps the treasure was buried in the locis secretis, and that possibly the cesspool had become a gold mine. The inventor of this idea, the conceited finance_minister, remarked that now he had it figured out, and his crafty thought was applauded. Immediately were fetched ropes and cords, lanterns, and ladders. Fervet opus. The new miners made their first test, bravely lowering themselves well_secured into the shaft. Poles and sticks were lowered to them to serve as divining rods for searching through everything, so that nothing be left unprobed. They stirred and stirred until the chief overseers and inspectors almost swooned from the rising mercurio volatili and had no strength left either to halt or to spur on the miners in the shaft.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

I may be wrong, but I believe you have quoted the answer to your question:

"Now the treasure hunt began. Every corner was searched in vain. Practically all bricks were torn loose from the floor of the procuratory; but no subterranean vaults were revealed. The garden was dug up, but neither buried jars nor chests were unearthed. Walls were tapped inside and out and as soon as the sound seemed to reveal a space it was broken in, but no sealed coin repositories were found."

They were looking for the exact same thing treasure hunters have been looking for since the Jesuits were expelled, and with the same results.

To be more precise: Gold and silver ingots/bars, gold or silver coins, precious stones..........treasure, in any manner you can dream of it.

I am more than familiar with Father Och's writings.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

To be more precise: Gold and silver ingots/bars, gold or silver coins, precious stones..........treasure, in any manner you can dream of it.

Wouldn't this also include church ornaments?

 

[cactusjumper]

Wouldn't this also include church ornaments?

deducer,

I believe they were looking for hidden treasure, not stuff the priests were using out in the open.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

deducer,

I believe they were looking for hidden treasure, not stuff the priests were using out in the open.

Good luck,

Joe

Not to butt into this point of debate, but how would you class a solid silver statue of the virgin Mary of say, five pounds weight? I am sure this would be called a "church ornament" by the Jesuits, and yet might be the type of thing hidden, and would certainly be worth a good deal of money even if just melted for the bullion. One such example was only recently mentioned in this very thread. Do you hold that the Spanish authorities searching in Mexico city (where such searches were most energetic) would not have looked for this type of "church ornament" as a hidden treasure, especially if hidden away? Thanks in advance;
Roy

Please do continue,

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I believe they were looking for hidden treasure, not stuff the priests were using out in the open.

Good luck,

Joe

Are you saying they would have passed up grabbing a church ornament standing in the open, in favor of searching cesspools and disturbing caskets?

 

[gollum]

Joe and Deducer,

The Spaniards were looking for EVERYTHING made of gold and silver possessed by the Jesuits. They knew the Jesuits had the Church Ornaments, they were mainly looking for sacks and chests of gold and silver (coins, bars, and dust), like what was found in Rio de Janeiro in July of 1891.

The funny thing was, they found neither gold and silver Church Adornments (as evidenced by Fra Serra's Inventories and Father Och SJs Journal), nor chests and sacks of coins, bars, or dust (as evidenced by several Jesuit Journals). So, sometime between 1764 (when the French Suppressed their Jesuits) and the night of 25-26 June 1767, all this ORNAMENTAL WEALTH that was admitted to by the Jesuits disappeared. The only things that the Spanish got were the things that could not be hidden: Land, Buildings, Cattle, Horses, Sheep, Crops, etc.

Once again, you folks are arguing over minutiae "Were the Spanish looking for Ornaments or bullion?"! WHO CARES? When the Spanish barged into all the Jesuit Colegios, Cabeceras, Churches, and Missions, they were searching for anything and everything the Jesuits possessed that had any value. They found nothing.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Are you saying they would have passed up grabbing a church ornament standing in the open, in favor of searching cesspools and disturbing caskets?

deducer,

I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Not to butt into this point of debate, but how would you class a solid silver statue of the virgin Mary of say, five pounds weight? I am sure this would be called a "church ornament" by the Jesuits, and yet might be the type of thing hidden, and would certainly be worth a good deal of money even if just melted for the bullion. One such example was only recently mentioned in this very thread. Do you hold that the Spanish authorities searching in Mexico city (where such searches were most energetic) would not have looked for this type of "church ornament" as a hidden treasure, especially if hidden away? Thanks in advance;
Roy

Please do continue,

Roy,

Most would assume that they would grab anything made of gold or silver.........or anything else of value. If the Fathers had a gold pig in the garden, I am sure they would have taken it as well.

Just as probably happened with the Conquistadors, I would imagine there were more than a few soldiers with sticky fingers. A bag of silver or gold coins was very portable and would provide a powerful temptation to the dirt poor soldiers,
as well as their leaders.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

An interesting comparison I found looking at the Mines in Sonora was the Molina Map to the Mineral Compositions.

The thing I found most interesting was the new discovery of Moctezumite in Sonora mines the mineral looks just like gold but is lead!

http://webmineral.com/data/Moctezumite.shtml

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

yegua = mare Coffee Er?

 

[deducer]

I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

Yes, namely that the Spanish soldiers would have grabbed anything, like Mike said.

So to say that the King's men were not looking for "ornaments" is not an accurate depiction of what they were up to. They were looking for anything that had value of any kind.