JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[somehiker]

Loot stolen from Jesuit Mission

The gold calf sounds out of place for a catholic mission, doesn't it ?
Few are apparently aware of this factoid, but Fr. Claude Sicard SJ was the discoverer of the Valley of Kings in Egypt.
The Jesuits seemed to have a great interest in older civilizations and their treasures. No wonder, if they happened to find it profitable to locate and dig up old tombs....for the good of the Order of course. Later on, when so many of these tombs were re-opened by later 19th and 20th century expeditions, most were found to be completely emptied. Should make us wonder how much them Jesuits hauled away, if they .... like Howard Carter , got there first.

 

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[somehiker]

Rocker stone mills......

............

In the second photo, the man on the left is amalgamating the crushed rock with mercury.

 

[markmar]

Another version of silver Madonna in New England . Sounds more plausible . Starts on page 72 .

Buried Treasures of New England: Legends of Hidden Riches, Forgotten War ... - W. C. Jameson - Google

 

[sailaway]

Three Round stones found in Texas

Between 1902 and 1910 three mysterious stones were discovered in three different Central Texas Counties by Dave M. Arnold and local land owners. We do not know what the three stones (the three Spider Rocks), found in Central Texas represent. We do not know who carved the intricate symbols depicted on them, nor do we know why someone would cut replicas of two of the stone maps (the Clyde map and the Aspermont map) on a disc a mere one-eighth-inch-thick and one and three quarters inches in diameter, then loose it or place it on the east side of Kiowa Peak (for centruies a historic landmark for travelers).
Of equal interest is a discovery made by rancher, B. Hendrix, who lived west of Knox City, Texas, in 1971. In the cedar breaks near his property B. Hendrix discovered a religious medallion that bore the date 1647. Printed on the artifact is "S.PATER BENEDICTVS. SILVESTCON SILF."
Spider Rock

 

[UncleMatt]

The spider rock stones are well written about by our good friend Springfield, I have his book on the subject in my library.

 

[sailaway]

Mill stones in the American southwest

millstones of various kinds receive major treatment in the book, but it is now thoroughly established that, in ... both within and beyond the American Southwest,.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/23273550?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104757894297]

A good example is provided by the peoples of the American Southwest, although their technologies would have been similar to those used farther south throughout Mesoamerica and South America. Here archaeologists have uncovered ample evidence of the production of milling stones. In one region of western Arizona and eastern California an area of some 300 acres was given over to the production of milling stones. Archaeologists have determined, on the basis of debris and discarded stones, that over the centuries hundreds of thousands of these stones must have been manufactured.
Facts On File History Database Center

Though there are varying accounts of the exact date, San Gabriel Mission records indicate it was built in 1816. The mill was built on land owned by the San Gabriel Mission, and was designed by Franciscan Father José Maria de Zalvidea, then in charge of the mission. It was built by Tongvan Mission Indian laborers "under the watchful eye" of Father Zalvidea. The mill was built like a fortress. Its lower walls are nearly five feet thick at the base, and are made of brick and volcanic tuff. Some have written that the thick fortress-like walls were intended to allow the padres to barricade themselves in the event of "a disturbance among their somewhat uncertain converts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Molino_Viejo

 

[UncleMatt]

I thought we were discussing mining sites, not missions or mills. I don't personally believe miners/prospectors on the Spanish frontier would have taken the time or effort to chisel such stones, unless they found some that were already formed appropriately by Mother Nature. And I mean at the mining sites themselves, not at missions or mills. We already know where many of the missions and communities were, it is the mines we seek that elude us. In that pursuit, for me the only reason to learn of these arrastra technologies is to be able to identify them in the field hopefully. And subsequently locate the mines that were feeding them.

 

[deducer]

We are actually discussing Jesuit treasures. The question once again is, are they real or not?

 

[UncleMatt]

Such treasure would come from a mine, yes? And there are many legends and stories that in the revolt, the Indians threw everything Spanish down their mines, including many of the Spanish/Jesuits themselves, and covered them up. So subsequently for me, locating the mines is a priority in proving whether Jesuit Treasures exist or not to the present. That is also why I posed my earlier question about Spanish mining drills. Not to deflect from the OP, but to explore ways of identifying actual mine locations of relevance in the field.

 

[cactusjumper]

Matt,

Are there any accounts of Jesuits who just went missing?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

You tell me. I was referring to stories and legends I have read on T-net and elsewhere. So are you saying you have evidence the Jesuits were spared in the revolt?

 

[sailaway]

Jesuit Padres killed by Indians

In 1695 the arbitrary cruelty of a local Spanish commandant provoked a rising among the southern Pima and their allies, who attacked and plundered the missions on the Sonora side, excepting Dolores where Father Kino was stationed, and killing Father Saeta at Caborca with the usual savage cruelties. The insurrection was soon put down by the energetic measures of Governor Jironza, and through the intercession of the missionaries a general pardon was accorded to the revolted tribes. In 1751 a more serious rebellion broke out, again involving the three tribes, in whose territory there were now eight missions, served by nine Jesuit priests. Of these missions two only were within the present limits of Arizona, viz., San Xavier del Bac and San Miguel de Guevavi, founded in 1732 near to the present Nogales. For a period of more than twenty years after Father Kino's death in 1711 the scarcity of workers had compelled a withdrawal from the northern missions, with the result that many of the Indians had relapsed into their original heathenism. The return of the missionaries was followed a few years later by an influx of Spanish miners and garrison troops, leading to trouble with the natives, which culminated in November, 1751, in a massacre of Spaniards and a general attack upon missions and settlements alike. Nearly 120 whites lost their lives, including Fathers Zello and Ruhn, and the missions were again abandoned until peace was restored in 1752.
Papago Indians - Original Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[cactusjumper]

Such treasure would come from a mine, yes? And there are many legends and stories that in the revolt, the Indians threw everything Spanish down their mines, including many of the Spanish/Jesuits themselves, and covered them up. So subsequently for me, locating the mines is a priority in proving whether Jesuit Treasures exist or not to the present. That is also why I posed my earlier question about Spanish mining drills. Not to deflect from the OP, but to explore ways of identifying actual mine locations of relevance in the field.

Matt,

I have never seen a story where the natives killed a Jesuit and threw his body down a mine shaft and then covered it over. If that were to have happened, it would give weight to the story that the priests enslaved the natives to work their mines. It would be an important piece of evidence.

While it may be true, someone would have to flesh out the story a bit.......to convince me it happened.

Take care,

Joe

 

[releventchair]

Ore crushing an obvious sign of mines being worked, even more of mines being successfully worked. Kind of an advertising effect. Ore carried and deposited for safe keeping, or transported to a locale where ore was crushed under other guises,some legit mining operations must be considered. Any thing from a co-op to clandestine operations. Consistency of where ore was crushed may be elusive for indicating a mines presence outside of large ,willing to be publicized ones with the means to defend themselves from scrutiny and those who were against mining or even those who mined.

 

[UncleMatt]

I agree with both of you. However, due to the remoteness of the locations, there might not have been quite so much concern about being clandestine when it came to ore processing. A simple drag arrastra powered by a couple of animals won't be that noisy or attract too much attention if it is tens of miles away from any communities or main trails. I just think its a good idea to know the full spectrum of what you are looking for when it comes to the "tells" of nearby mining activity.

And yes more evidence is definitely needed before placing too much faith in old stories and legends of the Indian uprising. But if you did find a mine with a bunch of skeletons and ceremonial Jesuit paraphernalia, in my opinion it would probably have an arrastra nearby.

 

[deducer]

Such treasure would come from a mine, yes? And there are many legends and stories that in the revolt, the Indians threw everything Spanish down their mines, including many of the Spanish/Jesuits themselves, and covered them up. So subsequently for me, locating the mines is a priority in proving whether Jesuit Treasures exist or not to the present. That is also why I posed my earlier question about Spanish mining drills. Not to deflect from the OP, but to explore ways of identifying actual mine locations of relevance in the field.

UM,

Is that necessarily so?

I only think we need to establish motive, means, and opportunity in order to answer the question: are Jesuit treasure real?

Examples of each can easily be found:

Motive:

One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church.

Means:






Opportunity:

 

[Oroblanco]

UM,

Is that necessarily so?

I only think we need to establish motive, means, and opportunity in order to answer the question: are Jesuit treasure real?

Examples of each can easily be found:

Motive:



Means:

View attachment 1064084


View attachment 1064102

Opportunity:

View attachment 1064103

That is one great post amigo, wish I could have thought of it! This fairly sums up the answers to the whole topic very well. I do not have anything to add, just clicking on "Like" was not a strong enough compliment.

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

 

[UncleMatt]

So now I am placed in the position of a doubter? You wound me sir! I was merely pointing out the treasure we seek would have come from a Jesuit mine, and how to identify same.

I think it about 85 certain that Jesuit treasures do exist, that the people suggesting the Jesuit Priests who knew of the location of these treasures died while being forced back to Spain are correct, and that all of the points you posted above are accepted by me.

Here is what worries me though: so many have been searching for so long, and not very much to show for all that but a cache here and there of modest value all things considered. The rest is shrouded beyond our view, by destroyed records, by secret finds no one ever hears about, and by abuse of governmental authority for personal gain. What chance do we have I wonder, of ever hitting the "Big One"?

 

[deducer]

So now I am placed in the position of a doubter? You wound me sir! I was merely pointing out the treasure we seek would have come from a Jesuit mine, and how to identify same.

I think it about 85 certain that Jesuit treasures do exist, that the people suggesting the Jesuit Priests who knew of the location of these treasures died while being forced back to Spain are correct, and that all of the points you posted above are accepted by me.

Here is what worries me though: so many have been searching for so long, and not very much to show for all that but a cache here and there of modest value all things considered. The rest is shrouded beyond our view, by destroyed records, by secret finds no one ever hears about, and by abuse of governmental authority for personal gain. What chance do we have I wonder, of ever hitting the "Big One"?

Some may come from a Jesuit mine- but if we are to judge by their history, they used all kinds of hiding places.

If I may ask: why 85%? Why not 100%? The founder of the Jesuit organization placed a big emphasis on a well-adorned church, and it's not unreasonable to assume that a great deal, if not all, of the succeeding Jesuits attempted to carry out this vision, and as I pointed out, they had many means to do so, including importing what we would call "treasure", commissioning "treasure" to be made (statues, et al), or simply digging it out of the ground. They also most certainly had the opportunity to make this happen, in the Pimeria Alta for example, with a very sophisticated and well-organized mission trade system, and one that was so efficient they could use it as leverage to keep everyone on the frontier, in their places. This same trade system probably transported quite a bit of "treasure" clandestinely.

And as for the "big one," I am pretty sure there have been quite a number of "big ones" that simply weren't a matter of public record or otherwise documented because the finders themselves didn't care for publicity, or the find itself was downright illegal.

To go back to the southwest: considering the enormous amount of "art" they imported or otherwise commissioned over the years, and considering how much time they had to dig out of what was then virgin (i.e., unmined) ground, it is not altogether unrealistic to consider that an enormous amount still remains hidden, especially considering that by the time the expulsion was fully underway, the Spanish found the "cupboards to be bare" so to speak.

And as far as "hitting the big one," while that has most certainly happened a few times over the centuries, I think what we are all hoping for is that the next "big one" will be well documented and publicized, and made a matter of public record.

I think the chances of that happening is pretty good.

 

[UncleMatt]

No, ANY valuable treasure metals found in New Spain would have come FROM a mine. Now Jesuit treasure could have been hidden in a mine, but any such treasure would have had to be mined and processed before that could occur. Either way, finding the mine is key to finding the Jesuit treasure, yes? And its not 100% because of lack of verifiable evidence: a large Jesuit treasure trove being found and documented. When THAT happens, abra cadaver, it will be 100%...