JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

somehiker i was not referring to the stone maps when I said that it is on the arm of the priest. That is where I found the numbers on the large priest that looks east from Rogers Canyon, the same arm that holds the cross. The warning is from the elbow to the sleeve. It is also on the north wall of Fish Creek Canyon.

 

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[somehiker]

sailaway:

I'm sure if I had the time and inclination to do so, I could find snow white and the seven dwarfs marching with their mining tools off to work in that modern topo.
And a hi ho or two as well.
Someone else might see a perfect replica of the sinking Titanic...., complete with the SOS and AULD LANG SYNE.
An iceberg would be really easy.
Have you considered using the only topo available at the time the stones were found in 1948-49, which would be more relevant ?
Of course, if you want to link the stones to the Mina Virgon, which the written description quite clearly places well south of Tucson, there were no topos yet, and a map maker would have to be tens of thousands up in the air, or riding and wishing upon a star, in order to see more than a few mountains and canyons all at once. Certainly not enough to have such visions as what you seem to be having in your thread.

 

[gollum]

Guys, can you please educate me about whether the Spanish used steel drills to drill holes as part of their mining techniques? And what time periods they were in use? Please post photos if you have any. Thanks!

UM,

Yes. Just google "star drill". It was a long steel shank with a five sectioned bit. Hold, Hit, Turn, Hold, Hit, Turn, Hold, Hit, Turn until the desired depth is reached.

The drill holes were also used to mark trails:

Star Drill Holes

Thats my website. Go down to the 16th picture. These holes are in Javelina Canyon near Tumacacori. If you place a dowel rod in the holes, each dowel points to a different trail through the mountains.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

I did do a search for "star drill", and came up with everything BUT old Spanish star drills. Anyone have any photos of an actual Spanish star drill? I did come across a couple of photos of drill holes, but no tools that made them...

My understanding was the Spanish mostly used the fire method to mine, since they lacked high explosives other than gunpowder.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

fire method -- NO explosives

Black Powder -- LARGE drill holes 2" or more.

Modern hi explosives -- approx 1 " holes.

The spanish sometimes used Granite drillsn dependingupon the matrix,

 

[sailaway]

this rock with date 1568 was found in the Superstitions. Somehiker you might want to refer back to when the topic was survey tools here in this thread. when doing surveys they would produce the elevations so that it would "paint" a picture simular to our modern topo maps. remember the Jesuit Astrolabe? I have raised the question way back in this thread of where was the original site of Tumacacori in 1565 yet no one has been able to identify the site, and it was reported that Tumacacori has moved many times after the Molina date. somehiker you claim it is south of Tuscon, if you know the location for that date please share as I am sure even the park service would like to know the site.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I believe that is a opy of an early model roller Chilean type mill -they are efficient snd reqqire less powwer for a given unit than the poor Mule driven one.

.nothing to do with the Jesuits or miningin Az. in the early days.

 

[UncleMatt]

I guess the system is multiple posting this morning. Still interested in any photos of a genuine Spanish star drill.

 

[sailaway]

Spanish Rock Drilling used in Mining

The berbiquíes, invented in the Middle Ages, used the principle of the lever. The user places a hand on top and one on the handle, which rotates with the tool. The crank form of the turning force increases. The bits are set to brace the chuck located at the end of the tool. Drill, cutter for round holes in wood, metal, rock or other hard material. The tool used to make holes in wood is usually called spin, as well as some specialized types of tools used in rock drilling.

The small, shallow holes in stone, concrete, brick and other similar materials, manually drilled with a drill of star, which is a steel rod with a sharp cutting point. The point is held against the object to be drilled, and the other end of the rod is struck with a hammer or mallet, after which the tool rotates slightly and hit again. ( pictures are genuine Spanish Star Drill )

The Spanish also under stood how the Egyptians drilled rock with Bow Drills.



Later on they used hand drills

 

[somehiker]

View attachment 1058298 this rock with date 1568 was found in the Superstitions. Somehiker you might want to refer back to when the topic was survey tools here in this thread. when doing surveys they would produce the elevations so that it would "paint" a picture simular to our modern topo maps. remember the Jesuit Astrolabe? I have raised the question way back in this thread of where was the original site of Tumacacori in 1565 yet no one has been able to identify the site, and it was reported that Tumacacori has moved many times after the Molina date. somehiker you claim it is south of Tuscon, if you know the location for that date please share as I am sure even the park service would like to know the site.
View attachment 1058337 View attachment 1058338

Of course I remember the Jesuit astrolabe, sailaway.
I posted the photo and link to it's source back in April.....

View attachment 1058754



Here is the link again...http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/astrolabe/exhibition/jesuit.htm the date inscribed on that astrolabe is 1595.

Some of the history, and the dates relative to the TWO Tumacacori locations can be found here....http://www.southwestlearning.org/download_product/811/0 or here if the first doesn't work.....http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/tumacacori.htm

Stones with numbers are not uncommon in the Supes, and numerous throughout the US and the rest of the world. There were many reasons for their existence and very few are dates. Many are simply "milemarkers" or boundary markers. If you do know where that stone was found, you should go out there and have a good look around. We all will be interested in what you find. A few more photos of the stone from different angles might help in determining what it actually represents out there.

Not sure why you included the photo of the rock crusher.....care to elaborate ?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

yrp. The blacksmith was a important man in early mining Besides other work, he specialized in rehaping used driil and sharpening them

Incidentally, you can find this type of drill in your local hardware store look under Star drills


View attachment 1058915star drill - a steel rock drill with a star-shaped point that is used for making holes in stones or masonry; it is operated by hitting the end with a hammer while rotating it between blowsbore bit, borer, rock drill, stone drill - a drill for penetrating rock

 

[UncleMatt]

Actually guys, sincere thanks for all your responses, but I know about drills in general., I was asking about old Spanish drills, photos of them, and the time periods they were in use here. I have been unable to uncover a single photo of an authentic Spanish star drill. Do any of you have one to post?

 

[gollum]

Actually guys, sincere thanks for all your responses, but I know about drills in general., I was asking about old Spanish drills, photos of them, and the time periods they were in use here. I have been unable to uncover a single photo of an authentic Spanish star drill. Do any of you have one to post?

What do you need to see? They look exactly like a star drill looks today. About a three foot shaft with a hardened bit with five cutting edges (star shaped hence the name).

I don't know about pictures, but if you go through "De Re Metallica", I am pretty sure you will find either a drawing of or reference to star drills.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

What do you need to see? They look exactly like a star drill looks today. About a three foot shaft with a hardened bit with five cutting edges (star shaped hence the name).

I don't know about pictures, but if you go through "De Re Metallica", I am pretty sure you will find either a drawing of or reference to star drills.

Mike

I have only ever seen star bits with four cutting edges, but would like to see one with five, that would be kind of neat! BTW not to derail the topic here but a lot of drilling by the early prospectors and miners in the southwest was done with plain vanilla flat iron bits made by a blacksmith. You can drill a nice round hole with a flat bit, by the exact same method used with the star bits (rotating a quarter turn with each hammer blow) although most people today would not dream of using such slow and labor intensive methods, it was the 'only show in town'. Drill tools were used and re-used until they grew too short to use, have a collection of them myself mostly too short for use, found at old mines. If needed I can try my hand at photographing them and then posting it, but they are pretty ordinary looking iron bars with one end flattened to a chisel point, the other end mushroomed from hammering.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Simple flat point rock drill: <NOT from my collection but exactly similar>


Star bit drill with four cutting edges, which I think is more modern than the Spanish colonial period but not sure:

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Oro and Mile; here is a detachable head type. ,ou can put on a sharpened head whille you are sharpening the old one

Noticethr dimple in the center, this is what I mentioned that the miner in Urique was using in his horizontal water wheel mill

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Oro and Mile; here is a detachable head type. ,ou can put on a sharpened head whille you are sharpening the old one

Noticethr dimple in the center, this is what I mentioned that the miner in Urique was using in his horizontal water wheel mill

View attachment 1059017

I have one almost exactly like that, never used as I did not like that you had to weld it onto a pipe (had a small drill rig at one time, also have a 3 inch diamond core bit matching the diameter that likewise had to be welded on, don't like to do that) the holes are for circulating water or fluid to flush the cuttings out. You know that just saying it for our readers whom do not post.

Please do continue amigos, coffee2:
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro mi assoc. the rods were cut with course a non jamming thread for easy interchangeability

And yes you are correct for machine drills. but for single jacking - hand -drilling they had only a solid star head or a simple cup, frankly I don't know.,smce they used a long slender rod with a bore dia cup to periodically clean out the hole.I

Incidentally i have a fine example which I founf buried near a small old mine. Thry just were too tired to carry it back to camp, so they buried it with candle holders etc,each night.

It also as a sharp curved point on the opposite end for opening a hole in a stick of Dynamite to insert the detonater and cord.

It's about 4 ft long

I have also found pieces of surgical tubing and small hand bellows for cleaning out the holes.



















7primer ad corf.

 

[somehiker]

Both chisels and star drills could be made in the blacksmiths shop, formed on the anvil from pig iron which had been hammered round into "drill rod".
While chisels were likely used mainly in the tight confines of the typical mexican mine, the longer chisel faced and star drills would have been used wherever blasting was employed.



More modern chisels and star drills are made from hex shaft, rather than round bar.
I have a few which are probably 75-100 yrs old, previously owned by a stone mason, that were forged from hex shafting as well.

 

[UncleMatt]

thanks all!

 

[Crow]

Both chisels and star drills could be made in the blacksmiths shop, formed on the anvil from pig iron which had been hammered round into "drill rod".
While chisels were likely used mainly in the tight confines of the typical mexican mine, the longer chisel faced and star drills would have been used wherever blasting was employed.

View attachment 1059074 View attachment 1059075 View attachment 1059076

More modern chisels and star drills are made from hex shaft, rather than round bar.
I have a few which are probably 75-100 yrs old, previously owned by a stone mason, that were forged from hex shafting as well.

Hello somehiker my hats off to ya for some fine piece of historical tool information worth a weight in gold.

Crow