JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Sorry about all these small posts, but I am catching up after a few days away. Please show me ONE place where I either embellished any facts, left out key pieces of information that might damage my point, or any attempts to change an actual translation to suit my needs? While I have seen that done by a couple of others, I don't do it myself (for the sake of intellectual honesty)."

As everyone knows, I go through these forums like a bull in a china shop. That being said, it should come as no surprise that I don't recall saying that, even though I am sure it must be so.

My apologies.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

Really, I don't think you can separate the South American Jesuit experiences with the southwestern parts of the United States. These people simply spread out and up, and continued their practices. They didn't stay in one spot (as evidenced by the fact that they have been in many, many countries), and our southwest is only a mule ride up from South America.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

If you believe there was no difference between the Jesuit system in South America and the Southwest, who am I to argue the point? I have concieded that I don't know that much about South America.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I just wanted to set the record straight. I often ask questions that I know the answers to, in order to gauge the strength of the opposing opinions. No doubt that is an evil thing to do, but I have used that method too many years to change now.

Hmm so you were testing me eh? One might wonder, to what end?

As far as the Jesuits in S.America go, the mission system was virtually identical - and with that used by them in the Philippines for that matter. About the only area the Jesuits were not active is in those areas of the Americas which were not under the control of Spain, Portugal and France. The vast amounts of lands owned by the Society of Jesus are almost incredible. It is small wonder that the various European monarchies saw a dangerous threat in the Jesuits. Being the "newest" or last of the Orders to come to the Americas, they quickly rose to be most powerful and wealthy.

The charges raised against the Jesuits were apparently exaggerated by the Jesuits themselves. Consider this passage from Bancroft, and I would point out that he is among those sources who claim that the Jesuits never did any mining.

In each province the Jesuits had contributed material for the charges true and false that had stirred up such a storm of opposition but it is obviously impossible to estimate the weight of any particular contribution In each case the charges the bitterness of prejudice and hatred were exaggerated by the missionaries themselves It may be said however that California by reason of its isolation the air of mystery always enveloping it its known wealth in pearls the exclusiveness of Jesuit occupation and the large sums contributed by private benefactors played as prominent a part in the drama as any province of the New World

<History of the north Mexican states, Volume 1 By Hubert Howe Bancroft, Henry Lebbeus Oak, Joseph Joshua Peatfield, William Nemos, pp 476 >

Those "large sums" from private benefactors resulted in the "Pious Fund" which was an account to support the missions in California growing to over $1 million in 1800's dollars. So how poor were those Jesuit missions again?

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Yammy Elf;
Yes, my friend, Joseph McCabe is known far and wide for his anti-Catholic sentiments and he was one of the biggest Catholic bashers of his time. Yale professor Peter Viereck stated that ""Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals" and I am tired of all of the unwarranted Catholic baiting which has been going on throughout this forum, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Gee, if Lamar didn't have me on his ignore list, maybe he could put his money where his mouth is.

Where is all the Catholic bashing?

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Hmm so you were testing me he? One might wonder, to what end?"

It's quite simple, in my mind. If I offer the information and supply sources, it usually ends up with myself and my sources being called "Jesuit apologists", thus impugning the honesty of those "facts". If, on the other hand, the information comes from those who seem to be less than fans of the Jesuits, such as yourself, it carries much more weight in the debate.

It seems like a good way to shortcut some of the constant back and forth, that seems to take us nowhere.

Here are some questions I don't know the answers to, which seem important to the conversation. Can you name three missions, their priests, the mines, and the approximate date the priests were there? If we are going to continue in this vein, excuse the bad pun, I would like to focus my research on specific locations and legends......in Mexico.

While I do have the works of Jesuit writers for sources, many of my sources are historians/ethnologists with no known connections to the Catholic Church. They are respected historical scholars/professors. Their works give footnotes disclosing their sources, and they are not viewing the Jesuits through anything nearing "rose colored glasses". That would include people like Professor Susan Deeds from NAU, as well as many others who have provided a balanced account of events in the New World.

Even though I was raised, early years, Catholic, I am no apologist or even fan of any church. Once I left the Catholic Church, I went to many others and have studied quite a few. I spend my Sundies watching football or sleeping in.....off season.

I do enjoy legends, but my thing is history, facts and finding the truth. Those are my motives, plain and simple. Those who read an agenda into my posts are dead wrong. If you present solid evidence that is sufficient to erase what has been written in the history books and historical documents/archives, I will have no problem changing my tune. So far, that is not happening.

Take care,

Joe

 

[stefen]

Ok, Mike, now you have left me nothing to say.


B

An all-time first

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

B

 

[cactusjumper]

MERRY CHRISTMAS.......TO US:

NEW PUPPY.....SMOKEY

AND TO EVERYONE ON TREASURENET.

JOE & CAROLYN

 

[lamar]

Roy,


Even though I was raised, early years, Catholic, I am no apologist or even fan of any church. Once I left the Catholic Church

Dear cactusjumper;
My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Awwww - he's cute. Good luck with him, Joe.

And

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - to you, Joe and your whole family

and - to everyone on Tnet - Happy Holidays to one and all.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

[My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".]

Those are not bad tidings at all, at least they aren't for me. I have left all churches. I have no problem with the Catholic Church, Mormon Church or any other's attatching whatever dogma they wish to my soul.

Despite that, I believe myself to be a caring and generous person with my fellow man. That's what's right for me, and I accept that it's not enough for others. I will trust my salvation to the way I live my life.

I believe that taking God out of our lives is destructive, especially for the youth. In that respect, for me, that is the greatest value of all churches.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Roadquest]

mmmm Maybe if this thread was moved to the Religion section.
It would turn back into a JESUIT TREASURES conversation.

Na, what the hell. Keep it here. The more people get peed off.
The more they try to prove their point of view is correct. And
we might get some information someone is holding back.

Keep going at it people, you have a pretty large audience.

 

[Springfield]

... My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Oh, the exquisite irony listening to a disguised pagan separating himself from the pagans! Life is good - enjoy it everyone.

 

[Roadquest]

Roy,


Even though I was raised, early years, Catholic, I am no apologist or even fan of any church. Once I left the Catholic Church

Dear cactusjumper;
My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Reminds me of the time a friend of mine tried to leave the Mafia.
He was told pretty much the same thing.

Now, don't stone me. This is a joke.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I suppose where you lost me was when the "Church vestments and Candlesticks, Monstrances, Ciboria, and various other Church Vestments made of precious metals in quantities large or small." became "treasure".
I was, pretty much, stuck on refined silver and gold. (bars or ingots)

Can you tell me which missions were considered "rich" at the beginning of the eighteenth century and up to the time of the expulsion? I am only interested in those which are tied to legendary mines and treasures.

I would also be interested in the priests that you attatch to those treasures and mines. Pretty much the same questions I asked Roy. Anyone else, like Charlie, please chime in.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[Ritchie]

Roy,


Even though I was raised, early years, Catholic, I am no apologist or even fan of any church. Once I left the Catholic Church

Dear cactusjumper;
My friend, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you were baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, then you are STILL a Roman Catholic. You may renounce the Roman Catholic church and all of Her teachings, you may embrace another religion, you may be a bad Catholic, and you may even be an excommunicated Catholic, but a Roman Catholic you are and a Roman Catholic you shall remain, now and forever. And always remember, my friend, "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas".
Your friend;
LAMAR

Reminds me of the time a friend of mine tried to leave the Mafia.
He was told pretty much the same thing.

Now, don't stone me. This is a joke.

Roadquest,

You may have said it jokingly, but it was very close to my first thought.

Friend Lamar,

The way you present that, you make it sound more like a commandment from God than it does a rule of the church.
Like I said before, I have very little personal knowledge about the Catholic Religion. You seem to be closer to the subject than anyone I have ever had the pleasure of talking to about it before. From our brief discussion about the possibility of the Jesuits being involved in mining. I have been able to form some personal conclusions, about whether or not I believe there COULD actually be any hidden Jesuit Treasures. I thank you for that, as it has already moved me farther down the road to making other decisions.

Now on the subject of "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salas". I am afraid that leads me to believe things about the Catholic Church that are not flattering, and cause me to more readily accept some of the negative views about it. My respect for your knowledge about the ways of the church, remains as high as it ever was, but the more I read your words. The more I lose respect for the Catholic Religion, and the more I become convinced that they might break, or bend, or even rewrite any rule as necessary to further their own agenda.

I apologize to the detractors for the way I continuously drag this discussion back to the center of the subject but I really do find it fascinating.

Ritchie

 

[stefen]

Richie,

The rules as espoused are man-made dogma with the expressed attempt to make one fear.

Since all Christains beleive in the same God, then the shackles of one church can be thrown away in order to become a member of another.

When a religion cannot control its priests from assulting children, and openly hides the facts, it has lost my respect.

 

[whitt459]

richie !very well said,many many people feel the same way.