JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

I believe all of the missions were built near plentiful water, a native population and an environment that fostered self sufficiency of the mission. Joe
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if so then why was it there were unmaned Missions? I have looked at the mission maps of Kino and it seems to me they were more like a fortified overnight lodges for the traveling Padres. That and to have padres on hand to bury the dead, pray for the living going into battle with the hostiles. The Padres were more than happy to ablige as then the Catholic Church could do what it does best and that is collect the wealth, land and belongings of the dead. Read your local legal notices and you will see that it continues today.
Initial Contact with the Mayo Indians (1609-1610). The Mayo Indians were an important Cáhita-speaking tribe occupying some fifteen towns along the Mayo and Fuerte rivers of southern Sonora and northern Sinaloa. As early as 1601, they had developed a curious interest in the Jesuit-run missions of their neighbors. The Mayos sent delegations to inspect the Catholic churches and, as Professor Spicer observes, "were so favorably impressed that large groups of Mayos numbering a hundred or more also made visits and became acquainted with Jesuit activities." As the Jesuits began their spiritual conquest of the Mayos, Captain Hurdaide, in 1609, signed a peace treaty with the military leaders of the Mayos.
Spanish Contact with the Yaqui Indians (1610). At contact, the Yaqui Indians occupied the coastal region of Sinaloa along the Yaqui River. Divided into eighty autonomous communities, their primary activity was agriculture. Although the Yaqui Indians had resisted Guzmán's advance in 1531, they had welcomed Francisco de Ibarra who came in peace in 1565, apparently in the hopes of winning the Spaniards as allies in the war against their traditional enemies, the Mayos.
In 1609, as Captain Hurdaide became engaged with the pacification of the Ocoronis (another Cahita-speaking group of northern Sinaloa), he reached the Yaqui River, where he was confronted by a group of Yaquis. Then, in 1610, with the Mayo and Lower Pima Indians as his allies, Captain Hurdaide returned to Yaqui territory with a force of 2,000 Indians and forty Spanish soldiers. He was soundly defeated. When he returned with another force of 4,000 Indian foot soldiers and fifty mounted Spanish cavalry, he was again defeated in a bloody daylong battle.
Conversion of the Mayo Indians (1613-1620). In 1613, at their own request, the Mayos accepted Jesuit missionaries. Soon after, the Jesuit Father Pedro Mendez established the first mission in Mayo territory. In the first fifteen days, more than 3,000 persons received baptism. By 1620, with 30,000 persons baptized, the Mayos had been concentrated in seven mission towns.
Conversion of the Yaqui Indians (1617-1620). In 1617, the Yaquis, utilizing the services of Mayo intermediaries, invited the Jesuit missionaries to begin their work among them. Professor Spicer noted that after observing the Mayo-Jesuit interactions that started in 1613, the Yaquis seemed to be impressed with the Jesuits. Bringing a message of everlasting life, the Jesuits impressed the Yaquis with their good intentions and their spirituality. Their concern for the well being of the Indians won the confidence of the Yaqui people. In seeking to protect the Yaqui from exploitation by mine owners and encomenderos, the Jesuits came into direct conflict with the Spanish political authorities. From 1617 to 1619, nearly 30,000 Yaquis were baptized. By 1623, the Jesuits had reorganized the Yaquis from about eighty rancherĂ­as into eight mission villages.
Detachment of the Province of Sinaloa and Sonora (1733). In 1733, Sinaloa and Sonora were detached from Nueva Vizcaya and given recognition as the province of Sonora y Sinaloa. This detachment represented a recognition of "the growth of a mining and ranching secular society in this northwestern region."
Rebellion of the Yaqui, Pima, and Mayo Indians - Sinaloa and Sonora (1740). The Yaqui and Mayo Indians had lived in peaceful coexistence with the Spaniards since the early part of the Seventeenth Century. The cause of this rebellion was that the Jesuits had ignored " the growing Yaqui resentment over lack of control of productive resources." During the last half of the Seventeenth Century, so much agricultural surplus was produced that storehouses needed to be built. These surpluses were used by the missionaries to extend their activities northward into the California and Pima missions. The immediate cause of the rebellion is believed to have been a poor harvest in late 1739, followed in 1740 by severe flooding which exacerbated food shortages.
The increasingly bureaucratic and inflexible Jesuit organization obdurately disregarded Yaqui demands for autonomy in the selection of their own village officials. Thus, this rebellion was a more limited endeavor to restore the colonial pact of village autonomy and territorial integrity. At the beginning of the revolt, an articulate leader named El Muni emerged in the Yaqui community. El Muni and another Yaqui leader, Bernabé, took the Yaquis' grievances to local civil authorities. Resenting this undermining of their authority, the Jesuits had Muni and Bernabé arrested.
The arrests triggered a spontaneous outcry, with two thousand armed indigenous men gathering to demand the release of the two leaders. The Governor, having heard the complaints of both sides, recommended that the Yaqui leaders go to Mexico City to testify personally before the Viceroy and Archbishop VizrĂłn.
In February 1740, the Archbishop approved all of the Yaqui demands for free elections, respect for land boundaries, that Yaquis be paid for work, and that they not be forced to work in mines.
The initial stages of the 1740 revolt saw sporadic and uncoordinated activity in Sinaloa and Sonora, primarily taking place in the Mayo territory and in the Lower Pima Country. Catholic churches were burned to the ground while priests and settlers were driven out, fleeing to the silver mining town at Alamos. Eventually, Juan Calixto raised an army of 6,000 men, composed of Pima, Yaqui and Mayo Indians. With this large force, Calixto gained control of all the towns along the Mayo and Yaqui Rivers.
However, in August 1740, Captain AgustĂ­n de VildĂłsola defeated the insurgents. The rebellion, however, had cost the lives of a thousand Spaniards and more than 5,000 Indians. After the 1740 rebellion, the new Governor of Sonora and Sinaloa began a program of secularization by posting garrisons in the Yaqui Valley and encouraging Spanish residents to return to the area of rebellion. The Viceroy ordered the partition of Yaqui land in a "prudent manner." The Yaquis had obtained a reputation for being courageous warriors during the rebellion of 1740 and the Spanish handled them quite gingerly during the late 1700s. As a result, the government acquisition of Yaqui lands did not begin began until 1768.
Pima Rebellion of 1751-1752. The Pima Indians have lived for many centuries in scattered locations throughout what are today the western two-thirds of southern Arizona and northern Sonora. While the Pimas Altos (Upper Pima Indians) lived in the north, their linguistic brethren, the Pima Bajo (Lower Pima) lived farther south in lower Sonora.
During the 1740s, the Pima Indians began to feel agitated by the presence of the Spaniards in their territory. In November 1751, under the leadership of a Pima leader, Captain-General LuĂ­s Oacpicagigua, the Pima rose in revolt. Within a few days more than a hundred settlers, miners, and ranchers were killed. Churches were burned, and two priests were also killed. However, on January 4, 1752, approximately 2,000 northern Pimans attacked less than one hundred Spaniards, only to be repulsed with a loss of forty-three dead. The Pima Revolt lasted only four months, ending with the surrender of LuĂ­s Oacpicagigua, who offered himself in sacrifice and atonement for his whole people, endeavoring to spare them the consequences of their uprising.
Apache Offensives in Sonora and Chihuahua (1751-1774). The word "Apache" comes from the Yuma word for "fighting-men". It also comes from a Zuni word meaning "enemy". Cynthia Radding, the author of The Colonial Pact and Changing Ethnic Frontiers in Highland Sonora, 1740-1840, refers to the Apaches as "diverse bands" of hunter-gatherers "related linguistically to the Athapaskan speakers of Alaska and western Canada." The Apaches were composed of six regional groups: (1) the Western Apaches (Coyotero) of eastern Arizona; (2) the Chiricahua of southwestern New Mexico, southeastern Arizona, Chihuahua and Sonora; (3) the Mescalero of southern New Mexico; (4) the Jicarilla of Colorado, northern New Mexico and northwestern Texas; (5) the Lipan Apache of New Mexico and Texas; and (6) the Kiowa Apache of Colorado, Oklahoma, and Texas.
The first Apache raids on Sonora appear to have taken place during the early part of the late Seventeenth Century. In fact, to counter the early Apache thrusts into Sonora, presidios were established at Janos (1685) in Chihuahua and at Fronteras (1690) in northern Opata country. The Apache depredations continued into the Eighteenth Century and prompted Captain Juan Mateo Mange in 1737 to report that "many mines have been destroyed, 15 large estancias along the frontier have been totally destroyed, having lost two hundred head of cattle, mules, and horses; several missions have been burned and two hundred Christians have lost their lives to the Apache enemy, who sustains himself only with the bow and arrow, killing and stealing livestock. All this has left us in ruins."
In the 1750s, the fiercest of all Apache tribes, the Chiricahua, began hunting and raiding along the mountainous frontier regions of both Sonora and Chihuahua. In 1751, the Sonorans mounted a punitive campaign against the Chiricahua, capturing two of their leaders. In 1753 and 1754, the Apaches once again attacked the settlements and ranches near Valle de San Buenaventura and Casas Grandes. As a result, another expedition of 190 Sonorans, 140 Opata allies, and 86 Spanish troops from Chihuahua went out in search of the marauders during 1756. When Apache raiders hit the region south of San Buenaventura in late 1760, an expedition of 100 Spanish troops and 130 Indian auxiliaries attacked the raiders.
The pressure of constant warfare waged against these nomads led the Spanish military to adopt a policy of maintaining armed garrisons of paid soldiers (presidios) in the problem areas. By 1760, Spain boasted a total of twenty-three presidios in the frontier regions. But the Apaches, responding to these garrisons, developed "important adaptations in their mode of subsistence, warfare, and social organization. They became highly skilled horsemen whose mobility helped them elude presidio troops.
Professor Robert Salmon, the author of Indian Revolts in Northern New Spain: A Synthesis of Resistance (1680-1786) writes that the continuing Indian attacks eventually "broke the chain of ineffective presidios established to control them." As the end of the Eighteenth Century approached, the Apaches represented a major threat to the continued Spanish occupation of Sonora and Chihuahua. And, as Professor Salmon concludes, "Indian warriors exacted high tolls in commerce, livestock, and lives." The damage caused by Apache raids was calculated in hundreds of thousands of pesos, and many ranches, farms and mining centers throughout Chihuahua had to be abandoned.
Professor Griffen mentions that the Apache raiders in Chihuahua "displaced or assimilated other groups of hunter-gatherers known as the Sumas, Mansos, Chinarras, Sumanos, Jocomes, and Janos." As a result, Ms. Radding observes, the Spaniards, Pimas, and Opatas found it necessary to form "an uneasy, but necessary, alliance against the Apaches." The Opata Indians controlled the major river valleys of Central Sonora.
Seri Offensives (1757-1766). At the time of contact, the Seri Indians lived along the arid central coast of Sonora and shared boundaries with the Yaqui on the south and the Pima and Pápago on the east and north. The first known battle between the Seris and the Spaniards took place in 1662. A century later, on November 3, 1757, a war party of Seris and rebel northern Pimans struck the settlement of San Lorenzo (Sonora), killing thirty-two persons. This brazen affront called for military reprisal, and the Spaniards collected troops to chase the offenders back to the coastal area.
In 1760, Captain Juan Bautista de Anza took over command of the Tubac Presidio in Southern Arizona and embarked into Seri country near the Gulf of California. In 1761, presidios were denuded of troops in order to supply personnel and materials for the offensive. A force of 184 Spanish soldiers, 217 allied Indians and twenty citizens went on the offensive against the Seris. They succeeded in slaying forty-nine Seris and capturing sixty-three, while recovering 322 horses.
In 1767 King Carlos III abruptly banished the Jesuits from all his realms. Hundreds of mission establishments, schools and colleges had to be turned over to other missionary orders or converted to other uses. The Franciscans who took over the missionary effort in Sonora and Chihuahua inherited all the woes that had frustrated the Jesuits: restless neophytes, Apache hostility, disease, encroaching settlers, and lack of government support.
The Sonora Campaign (1767-1771). The Sonora Expedition of 1767 was led by Colonel Domingo Elizondo. The expedition was the result of demands by settlers in Sonora who had for decades suffered raids by warring rancherĂ­a groups of that province. Pacification of rebel Indian warriors of the coastal region was the main objective of the expedition that was comprised of an extraordinary 1,100 men. This expedition represented the greatest military effort yet seen in this Spanish frontier province.
During 1768, Colonel Elizondo's forces split up in an attempt to drive the Seri Indians into one area where a decisive battle could be fought. This mission failed to achieve its objective. The Indians, now well-trained in the art of hit-and-run and ambush style warfare, avoided direct confrontations with large Spanish armies. In 1771, after thirty-eight months of fighting, the Central Government in Mexico City put a stop to the Sonora Campaign, which was regarded as both costly and unsuccessful.
Peace Negotiations with the Apaches and Comanches (1777 - 1796). In 1777-78, Teodoro de Croix, the Commandant General of the Interior (frontier) provinces of Nueva España, called together three great conferences to discuss the Apache problem. The Apache problem had existed on the frontier since the Spanish entered the country, and each year it grew worse. The Apaches had five thousand warriors, armed with bows, lances, and firearms. They attacked only by surprise and only when they had the advantage.
Croix determined that it would take an army of at least 3,000 soldiers to confront and eliminate the Apache threat. He thus came to the conclusion that an alliance with the Comanches - the dreaded enemies of the Apaches - would bring about a resolution of the Apache problem. However, bogged down with "bureaucratic delays and obfuscation," de Croix was never able to get the money or men to implement this plan.
In 1779, Juan Bautista de Anza, the commander of the Tubac Presidio, gathered together an army of 600 men, which included 259 Amerindian auxiliaries and Spanish civilians, and marched north to the Colorado Plateau, in search of Comanches. Having estimated the Comanche population at 30,000 warriors spread across a large area, Anza attacked and surprised several bands of Comanches during 1783-84. Anza, operating with native allies and utilizing Indian tactics, earned the respect of the Comanches.
In 1785, the Comanches started negotiations with Anza. The following year, a peace treaty was signed in which several of the Comanche tribes pledged to assist the Spaniards against the Apaches. Through this agreement, The Comanches could now ride openly into Spanish settlements and New Mexican traders could move safely on the Comanche plains.
In 1786, the Viceroy of Nueva España, Bernardo de Galvez, instituted a series of reforms for the pacification of the frontier. His Instruccion of that year called for the formation of peace establishments (establecimientos de paz) for Apaches willing to settle down and become peaceful. Oscar J. Martínez, the author of Troublesome Border, described Spain's new policy of "pacification by dependency" toward the indigenous peoples. "Henceforth," writes Mr. Martínez, "Spaniards would endeavor to make treaties with individual bands, persuade them to settle near military stations where they would receive food rations, give them low-quality weapons for hunting, encourage trade, and use 'divide and conquer' tactics where appropriate."
History of Mexico - The State of Sonora
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sorry about the large quote but most will not follow a link. As I see it most of the Indians were in southern Sonora in Seven Mission Towns according to this study. yes there was scattered Pimas and Opatas in the northern Sonora, but enough for all the missions that were built? Then to be abandoned in 1761 when Captain Juan Bautista de Anza took the troops and went after the Seris to the west, leaving the Padres with who as the parishioners? No wonder the Apache raids were so effective between 1761 and 1767.
 

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Sailaway, a loaded burro normally traveled about 10 - 15 miles a day, depending upon the terrain.

Pack mules, 20 - 25 miles

Rding mules with an average rider 25 - 30 miles'

The origional settlers of Calif, only traveled as fast as the live stock could be driven. Women often walked as fast as they could drive the Geese and chickens Talk about tough gals---.

Their prinipal routes were along the flowing arroyos and rivers, in fact ths is haw they prospected origionally,

however all bets were off when they crossed the American great desert. headed for Calif.They were a tough breed in those days.












in fact this is haow they traveled and prospected,
 

Gracious Saliaway, I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Filled in some blanks that I had. The battle at Alomos i am very familiar with - they h d placed all of the women, children and old men in the Church with all of their black power reserves. stationed a man up at the bell hill with a spyglass to see the outcome of the battle. If the Indians had won, they were to blown up the church and all within it. Fortunately ==

It took place some 15 miles west of the town on the flat area south of the present Macusari dam. The entry to the pass to Alamos. I have often speculated on the idea of running a metal locateor over te battle ground.
 

When I mentioned spies, I never said they would have been Jesuit Priests! I was thinking along the lines of servants, workers, etc, who would be in a position to watch missions and what the Jesuits were doing. If such a spy were working nearby a mission, and observes a large pack train leaving and coming back later with no loads, that would perhaps be something worth reporting up the church ladder...
 

Who's word would would authorities believe? A servant with no education over a Padre with years of schooling? Those of you who are holders of doctorates degrees should understand how much knowledge the Jesuits have and also be infuriated by the thought that a lessor educated person would be sent to spy on a educated man. How would an uneducated man make a report of a chemistry test if he had no idea what compounds were even used? How could a person make reports of Law violations if he has no knowledge of what the laws are? How could a person without a geology background understand what rocks were being examined? All the fields have their own tools and descriptive s which the observer would have to describe in reports. The only way a person could be sent to spy on a Jesuit was if he had close to the same education and then he would stand out in the Sonora Desert locations. There was not a local postal service in Sonora back then. Even if one could get word up the Church ladder one must remember that there was the Jesuit General in between the Pope and all outside the Vatican. The scene in "Pirates of the Caribbean Dead-mans Chest" comes to mind where after breaking Elizabeth out of jail the Governor comes to a halt when the coadjutor pulls the knife out of the captain of the sailing ship and shows the letter that the Governor was sending to the King. It would be my belief that if there ever was a spy against the Jesuits in Sonora that an accident quickly came on them and they lost their life. Remember the Jesuits are the Army of the Catholic Church. Do you think they would not have a person killed for betrayal? Then you have to remember also that Catholics think a priest can do no wrong ever, so why would you be looking in the first place? Every Jesuit has a superior looking over their shoulder all the way up the the Jesuit General, so the organization is self monitored. If it had not been for the Jesuits getting caught in Spain with the forged document stating that King Charles was an Illegitimate Heir to the Spanish Throne, then I do not believe they would have ever been suppressed. The King many times prior to suppression had sworn his loyalty to the Catholic Church directly to the Pope. He only threw the Jesuits out of Spanish territory after the Pope refused to do anything about the Jesuits plots against him. Can you Blame the Crown for resorting to extreme measures? The Jesuits are lucky that they did not all get their heads chopped off without warning! One must also remember that the Jesuits were acting on orders from the Jesuit General and his Orders came directly from the mouth of the Pope. Do you for a minute think that the Pope did not know what was going on? If the Pope had not known, then he surely would have done something when the King of Spain came to him and asked that the Jesuits be taken care of through the Church.
Just like even today we call it the Spanish Inquisition, yet the Inquisition was declared by the Pope not a King! (read back in this thread and you will see where I posted it and got that information directly from the church computer records) Why is it not called The Catholic Inquisition?
For these reasons I believe that the Church recovered the treasures of Sonora a long time ago, or they are so sure no one will ever find it that they have left it where it is so that it will be safe. The Padres that know of the keys to the treasure left those with the church as soon as they got to Rome. One treasure that may still be in Arizona is the caravan that was attacked by the Apache in the Superstition Mountains, and another treasure that may not have been recovered was the hidden treasure by Father Sierra being as he was the only one who knew where it was hidden and was killed on the way out or so we are told. Could he have been secretly taken back to Rome undercover or in disguise of a fallen comrade? They did not have the identification documents we have today, the only fear would be that you would run into someone who knew the person you were impersonating. Other treasures that have been found and appear to be related to the Jesuits may have been left because of other reasons such as personal gains. How would the church know a Padre made some bars of Silver / Gold for himself or family member and then hidden for later use? How could the Church complain about misappropriation of precious metals if the Church had nothing to do with mining or smelting? It is the same as the child sex scandal that has rocked the Catholic Church in the 20th century. Only a few caused a great shame on the whole.
As far as I know there are no written records of any outside observers monitoring the Missions activities in Sonora for the Church I.E. spies, however there were reports from Spanish citizens getting back to the King of Spain that the Jesuits were stealing from his share of Precious metals.
BTW these post are compiled by a person who only has an associates degree. (2 years of higher education)

Pierbattista Pizzaballa, the Vatican News Agency
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/vatican/vatican.htm

Catholic scientist at Stanford shares Nobel Prize for work in chemistry
http://www.catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=34&ArticleID=19578

What Is the Meaning of Laicization of a Catholic Priest?
http://classroom.synonym.com/meaning-laicization-catholic-priest-5383.html

THE NATURE AND SCOPE OF SEXUAL ABUSE OF MINORS BY CATHOLIC PRIESTS AND DEACONS IN THE UNITED STATES 195O-2OO2
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...nd-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf
 

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UncleMatt said:
When I mentioned spies, I never said they would have been Jesuit Priests! I was thinking along the lines of servants, workers, etc, who would be in a position to watch missions and what the Jesuits were doing. If such a spy were working nearby a mission, and observes a large pack train leaving and coming back later with no loads, that would perhaps be something worth reporting up the church ladder...
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Again, we are dealing with people who have very high IQs, and who have suffered years of persecution in addition to being taught about the history of the persecution of their organization. By the time the Jesuits had strengthened their hold on the Pimeria Alta, they had already been banned from a handful of countries, and ten years before they were banished from the Southwest, they were banished from New France.

If there were such a spy or spies, and they did witness such a thing, the Church would undoubtedly have taken action, but history shows they didn't. There is no record of any citation or warning, penalty, or severe reprimand from the Church to the SJ operating in the Pimeria Alta to stop stockpiling what we today would call treasure.

Could it be that they were also complicit in a wink and a nudge sort of relationship, but had no idea of the extent to which the Jesuits were committed?
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Gracious Saliaway, I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Filled in some blanks that I had. The battle at Alomos i am very familiar with - they h d placed all of the women, children and old men in the Church with all of their black power reserves. stationed a man up at the bell hill with a spyglass to see the outcome of the battle. If the Indians had won, they were to blown up the church and all within it. Fortunately ==

It took place some 15 miles west of the town on the flat area south of the present Macusari dam. The entry to the pass to Alamos. I have often speculated on the idea of running a metal locateor over te battle ground.
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HAHAHA Jose, that gave me the best laugh of the day. I didn't know there were Black Panthers at the Battle of Alamos!?!

Mike
 

Ah shaddup ya, ya, perfectionist, what's a little 'D' among friends ?? :coffee2::coffee2:

The Mayos were light skinned with many Blue eyes, while the Yaqui were a mixture of anything that came along.

The origional pre Spanish Yaqui was a very small man and they accepted any reasonable Large male that came along - they had a rudimentary idea on Genetics - Witness the story of the black man that helped the tribe drive away the birds of prey that were feeding on the Yaqui kiddies.

One of the legends rhat they told me. "La Yo-obwa"
 

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So its assumed a spy placed by the Catholic Church to watch over Jesuits would have been uneducated or ignorant? I doubt it! Today when we send spies, we educate and train them to APPEAR to be that way, which helps them gather intel. In reality they are highly trained individuals. Not saying this actually happened, just saying its a good possibility the Catholic Church was staying abreast of Jesuit activities through such spies. But by the same token, maybe not. We are left to guess in the absence of evidence and data.
 

UncleMatt said:
So its assumed a spy placed by the Catholic Church to watch over Jesuits would have been uneducated or ignorant? I doubt it! Today when we send spies, we educate and train them to APPEAR to be that way, which helps them gather intel. In reality they are highly trained individuals. Not saying this actually happened, just saying its a good possibility the Catholic Church was staying abreast of Jesuit activities through such spies. But by the same token, maybe not. We are left to guess in the absence of evidence and data.
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Or maybe it's wrong to assume in the absence of any proof?

Not saying there were no spies, just that there is, as far as I know, no record of any actions taken by the Church against the Jesuits as far as hoarding treasure.
 

Jose says: Yaqui was a very small man and they accepted any reasonable Large male that came along
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First it is Black Panthers at Alamos, Now the Yaqui are gay?
I got a good laugh out of both. Thanks Jose!:coffee2:
 

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deducer said:
Or maybe it's wrong to assume in the absence of any proof?

Not saying there were no spies, just that there is, as far as I know, no record of any actions taken by the Church against the Jesuits as far as hoarding treasure.
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Indeed or "here-here"! I would have to conclude that there were few or no spies sent among the Jesuits, hence the strange incidents that occurred when non-Jesuits were sent to inspect the Jesuit missions, as with Palafox. It appears that he was shocked at the insolence, the amassing of treasures and properties, even open disobedience of superiors. <Palafox found this to be the case with other Orders besides the Jesuits as well, but not so much of the open flouting of ecclesiastical authority> It is a matter of record that several attempts were made to rein in the Jesuits prior to their suppression by successive Popes and even Jesuit Generals, without much success. To outsiders, the Jesuit oath of obedience was almost a joke (this theme resounds in mid-to late 1700s sources) and for all the wealth so visibly accumulated, very little of it seems to have filtered to the Church in Rome, though there was enough silver for the Jesuits to make a huge solid silver statue of Ignatius Loyola. Hmmmm.

Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Ah sigh, just shows "to go you" how coffee oils the brain. Hmm, come to thnk of It, I don't remember seeing a 'gay' Yaqui, although they like to drink, joke, and dance.

Incidentally, they kinda lose me after a 1/2 hr or so of the continuous drum beat three toned music on Homemade violins, and monotonous monotone words, but I am expected to show enthusiasm

and they are my friends.

It was simle genetics, and it worked. the Yaqui went from a meter high people to today 6' is becoming stanard.

The Yaqui in our ships' crew was 6' plus and weighted close to 250 lbs When were at anchor in Guaymas bay, he would swim ashore get drunk, hit the happy houses, then reappear on the shore with a couple of poor lil Mexican police hanging on him, dive in the water and swim back to the ship.
 

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Spies yes but Jesuit ones. The wedge of reformation required it. Prior to expulsion discrepancies easily overlooked as long as the right parties saw a cut. Nothing new there.
How to explain to native converts expulsion. Having taught of a promise of return by a deity ,by leaving items associated with the Jesuits for their return would be fitting. Things hidden during revolt aside. A midst persecution with church and government instead of the usual back and forth, now united against the order there is no sense giving them anything of value. Reformation the hot issue more than wealth. No sense throwing wealth away but it is time to counter reformation first and wealth will be needed secondarily and discreetly.( I wonder how many pairs of sandals left a ship after expulsion to make recoveries.)
Did activity of survival of principles go underground in the Jesuit community? Angrily if that's the determined word, it did. All they had worked for and believed is to be changed by reformation if they don,t fight it and its supporters. Wealth though secondary has a use but where to secure it? Are former allies to be trusted during upheaval in the church? Whom was truly served, men of government or church rank or a greater divinity? A church is its people. No people no church. The church that was became fragmented and the Jesuit choice was to assimilate or resist contributing to what they objected to including financially.

If this oath is true some passion may have been reflected of past disillusionment regarding who supported their cause.

Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction.
 

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releventchair said:
If this oath is true some passion may have been reflected of past disillusionment regarding who supported their cause.

Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction.
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It is not. The oath was created by late 17th century forger Robert Ware as a malicious slander against the Jesuits. Anti-Catholic groups in America cranked the absurdity up to 11 when they claimed (and had it entered in to the Congressional Record!) it was actually the oath taken by members of the Knights of Columbus. Or you could just ask the world's most famous Jesuit, Pope Francis 8-)
 

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Those of you who may have clicked SeaRogue's link to The Oath may have noticed that it was compiled by Oklahoma City Catholics but look here about that area.
Behemot OKC.jpg
Oklahoma Christians Say 'Yes' to Satan Statue at Capital
Oklahoma Satanists? Statue Planned for City Hall is Totally METAL (Images) | Americans Against the Tea Party
Oklahoma Christians Say 'Yes' to Satan Statue at Capital, Says Satanic Leader | Alternet
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I am not saying that the oath is valid or not, just that the area that the author was from. Also being as it was compiled by Catholics why not quote the real Oaths? I would love to read the oaths taken at each level by Jesuit Priest, wouldn't you? Instead we are directed to ask the Pope? Right, like that will ever happen. I also noticed that the link releventchair posted of Extreme Oath in which Dr. Alberto Rivera escaped from the Jesuit Order in 1967, and he describes his Jesuit oath in exactly the same way as it appears, this link is not the same oath quoted by the link that the OKC Catholics quoted. It appears that some do not research to make sure that what they are reading is the same as the others quote.
releventchair's link appears to be the real oath in my opinion, while the OKC Catholics have shown that what is in the Library of Congress was political assassination of a Pennsylvania Candidate.
 

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sailaway said:
Those of you who may have clicked SeaRogue's link to The Oath may have noticed that it was compiled by Oklahoma City Catholics but look here about that area.
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Here is the statement by the Archbishop of Oklahoma City on the the return of the Host stolen by Satanists. That should tell you something about that area.

sailaway said:
I am not saying that the oath is valid or not, just that the area that the author was from. Also being as it was compiled by Catholics why not quote the real Oath? I would love to read the oaths taken at each level by Jesuit Priest, wouldn't you
Click to expand...

Right, because there are clearly sinister clauses in the said oaths [cue ominous Gregorian Chant...]

Here is a summary of the various vows in the stages of Jesuit formation:

Members of the society fall into four classes:

  • Novices (whether received as lay brothers for the domestic and temporal services of the order, or as aspirants to the priesthood), who are trained in the spirit and discipline of the order, prior to making the religious vows.
  • At the end of two years the novices make simple vows, and, if aspirants to the priesthood, become formed scholastics; they remain in this grade as a rule from two to fifteen years, in which time they will have completed all their studies, pass (generally) a certain period in teaching, receive the priesthood, and go through a third year of novitiate or probation (the tertianship). According to the degree of discipline and virtue, and to the talents they display (the latter are normally tested by the examination for the Degree of Doctor of Theology) they may now become formed coadjutors or professed members of the order.
  • Formed coadjutors, whether formed lay brothers or priests, make vows which, though not solemn, are perpetual on their part; while the Society, on its side binds itself to them, unless they should commit some grave offense.
  • The professed are all priests, who make, besides the three usual solemn vows of religion, a fourth, of special obedience to the pope in the matter of missions, undertaking to go wherever they are sent, without even requiring money for the journey. They also make certain additional, but non-essential, simple vows, in the matter of poverty, and the refusal of external honours. The professed of the four vows constitute the kernel of the Society; the other grades are regarded as preparatory, or as subsidiary to this. The chief offices can be held by the professed alone; and though they may be dismissed, they must be received back, if willing to comply with the conditions that may be prescribed. Otherwise they enjoy no privileges, and many posts of importance, such as the government of colleges, may be held by members of other grades. For special reasons some are occasionally professed of three vows and they have certain but not all the privileges of the other professed.

Of course, this information was compiled by sinister Catholics, such as myself, contains no smoking gun, so clearly cannot be trusted. Miserere mei, Deus: secundum magnam misericordiam tuam.
 

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