JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

little richie,

Don't know what I have done to deserve this rare piece of luck, but I doubt you will leave me on ignore for long. After all, I am the real reason you are here.

[Joe, I just read your last post and hereby notify you that I consider you to be nothing more than a distraction to this conversation. For the purpose of maintaining my own sanity, I have put you on ignore so that I will no longer be distracted by your posts.]

In your case, it seems little richie's sanity is a bit fragile. Let's hope no one else tells you the truth.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Ritchie]

I see a message on my screen below my last post that "This user is currently being ignored". How sweet it is!

Friend Lamar,

I told you that I would post a scenario of what I see as how the mining in he new world commenced and proceeded without any wrongdoing on the part of the Jesuits.


Initially the alliance between the Church and he King was established to explore the new world, with each having their own obvious goals. Save souls for the church and explore the new world for mineral wealth for the King.

Eventually the time came when a new soul that had been saved, took an interest in a silver or gold ornament (possibly a cross) worn by a Jesuit. Being familiar with the metal it was formed from, he became curious about how it had been fashioned into such a beautiful ornament. After discussing the subject with the priest, he (The newly saved soul) casually mentioned that he knew of a place where more of this metal could be found.

Naturally, the Priest then informed him that if this were true, this metal could be traded for many wonderful things for his people. The people were informed of this and mining of the metal began by the people themselves. The Priest may have supplied some tools, and instructed them on their use. He may have also taught them some simple refining methods to increase their productivity.

In the mean time, the Church and the King are notified of the find. An agreement is reached whereby the king, the Church and the “people” can all share in the profits from mining of this metal. The people do the work, and are rewarded with much needed things in trade for the metal they have dug up. The King receives his share, and the Church receives theirs, a part of which is kept by the Jesuits in the new world, to cover their expenses and expand their base.

Everyone is happy for a while. Then someone decides that their share is not large enough, but the only way to increase it, is to increase the output from the mine(s). This would require either more people working, or more hours worked by the present number of people.

Any problems with this scenario so far Lamar?

Ritchie

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

It turns out that the passage that I found online is exactly what is in my book. It would seem that the story may have been embelleshed a bit, perhaps to create questions as to Father Nentvig's reliability as a historic source. He only related a story that was told to him.

Like the Democrats and Republicans, the truth just never seems to be enough. Both sides of this debate can't wait to fudge the facts in their favor. That seems a great reason to air both sides of the Jesuuit treasure debate on an open forum. Each side can bring whatever historical facts and legends are available, and the chips will fall where they may.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & 'Gentlemen: the expulsion order picking up only the mission Priests, but NOT the mining Jesuits, was clearly explained a few times before, I will not go into it again for now.

The 'questionable' Jesuit mines that I have found, but not the actual entrances, include La Gloria Pan, Las Pimas, La Tarasca, Tepoca, and of Course, the one that is 'indisputably' Jesuit, Tayopa. They were only closely located to establish certain truths of the Tayopa story and Jesuit mining.

Jesuit deposits (treasures) Two at Tayopa, one west 1000 meters, one a days travel East from Tayopa, several under the remains of the leap frog missions across Northen Mexico to below Maramorros. And of course, the one in the floor of the church at Chinapas and another in the wall of the Cathedral in Guadalajara which were recovered with my help, However I have my doubts that they were actually Jesuit, despite the resident priests statements.
The j(c)aramatraca plant / vine is well known in the sierras. It, the Chuchupati, and Jojovas have been credited with many, many remarkable cures. It has pinkish/reddish small flowers, rather pretty. some where in my collection of native herbs etc I have a picture of it.

Google Chuchupati, it is so much more effective in curing upper respiratory infections than anything modern medicine has, that it is being extensively investigated at this moment. I love the distinctive odor of fresh Chuchupati.

Oro, you are going to have your work cut out for you if we get together, in fact it may take our grandchildren to finish it..

Lamar, I am not going to attempt to offer flat, indisputable proof of what I am saying, about Jesuit activities, I am satisfied because the data that I have led me to these things. However in one of the deposits at Tayopa and again in the Deposit one days travel to the East, a considerable amount of maps and records are still inside. This will be Oro's job to open them and keep me from any traps snicker.

They will go to the Mexican gov't after I make copies of all and have the exclusive right to act upon any information included in them.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

It turns out that the passage that I found online is exactly what is in my book. It would seem that the story may have been embelleshed a bit, perhaps to create questions as to Father Nentvig's reliability as a historic source. He only related a story that was told to him.

Like the Democrats and Republicans, the truth just never seems to be enough. Both sides of this debate can't wait to fudge the facts in their favor. That seems a great reason to air both sides of the Jesuuit treasure debate on an open forum. Each side can bring whatever historical facts and legends are available, and the chips will fall where they may.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks for keeping things real, Joe.

This thread is taking a bizarre twist, with the happy natives partnered up with their new friends in some sort of mutual mining enterprise organized to provide the brothers with gold and the natives with steady back-breaking work. Sounds like a tough sell to me.

Don Jose, your discoveries sound intriguing. Out of curiosity, what sort of data do you have that convinces you that you will locate the items you've described?

 

[lamar]

I see a message on my screen below my last post that "This user is currently being ignored". How sweet it is!

Friend Lamar,

I told you that I would post a scenario of what I see as how the mining in he new world commenced and proceeded without any wrongdoing on the part of the Jesuits.


Initially the alliance between the Church and he King was established to explore the new world, with each having their own obvious goals. Save souls for the church and explore the new world for mineral wealth for the King.

Eventually the time came when a new soul that had been saved, took an interest in a silver or gold ornament (possibly a cross) worn by a Jesuit. Being familiar with the metal it was formed from, he became curious about how it had been fashioned into such a beautiful ornament. After discussing the subject with the priest, he (The newly saved soul) casually mentioned that he knew of a place where more of this metal could be found.

Naturally, the Priest then informed him that if this were true, this metal could be traded for many wonderful things for his people. The people were informed of this and mining of the metal began by the people themselves. The Priest may have supplied some tools, and instructed them on their use. He may have also taught them some simple refining methods to increase their productivity.

In the mean time, the Church and the King are notified of the find. An agreement is reached whereby the king, the Church and the “people” can all share in the profits from mining of this metal. The people do the work, and are rewarded with much needed things in trade for the metal they have dug up. The King receives his share, and the Church receives theirs, a part of which is kept by the Jesuits in the new world, to cover their expenses and expand their base.

Everyone is happy for a while. Then someone decides that their share is not large enough, but the only way to increase it, is to increase the output from the mine(s). This would require either more people working, or more hours worked by the present number of people.

Any problems with this scenario so far Lamar?

Ritchie

Dear Ritchie;
There's no problem with the scenario at all my friend, except that the focus is too tight on mining and mineral exploitation when we know that this aspect was not even a real consideration which got the Jesuits expelled from the colonies. The reduction system itself is what got the Jesuits into hot water, and whether or not they were actually involved in gold and/or silver mining had little or nothing to do with the decision to oust them from the New World colonies.

In the reduction system, all of the native charges worked X number of hours per week towards the good of the community, ie, the reduction. This was actually a very good system for the natives because they usually worked less than 4 hours per day, 6 days per week, whereas if they were to leave the reductions, they were subjected to being enslaved by the secular colonists, and if not enslaved, they would have been forced to work about 10 to 12 per day for extremely low wages.

Because there existed such a large native workforce already in place at the time of the colonization of the Americas, and because the Jesuits were bound and determined to teach that same workforce how to become highly skilled laborers and craftsmen, these same natives soon came to be viewed as a threat to the commerce of the colonists and the Jesuits were viewed as the instigators of that threat.

In virtually every field of endeavor in the New World colonies there was a Jesuit reduction or mission competing with the secular colonists in the marketplace and this caused a lot of previously unforeseen problems. As a culture, the natives were not greedy and they did not mind working as a part of a community effort and putting all of their gains into one big community pot. In fact, this was fairly close to how they existed in tribes before the colonization by the Europeans, therefore, from the natives point of view, the reduction system was simply one large tribal group with white tribal elders.

If a secular colonist planted sugar cane then the odds were fiarly good that there was a Jesuit reduction which was planting cane as well, only the Jesuits could undercut the colonists in the market because the focus upon communal living meant that overhead was far less for the natives than it was for the colonists. When the sugar cane planting colonist could not find a suitable workforce, they'd import a workforce from Africa in the form of slaves.

If a slave escaped from the sugar plantation and managed to get to a Jesuit reduction then he was a free man as long as he stayed on that reduction. Of course, this was only one part of the slavery problem, my friend. Another, and more important aspect of the problem was that any offspring of the slaves which were born on the reductions were baptized at birth and were therefore considered to be born as freemen and as such neither they nor any future offspring of theirs could be legally enslaved, according to royal and cannonical laws.

To sum up, due to the mistreatment of the indigenous populations by the European settlers, the Jesuit reductions and missions offered an attractive alternative to slavery, abuse, mistreatment and starvation. In a relatively short period of time the Jesuits controlled the vast majority of the workforce in the New World and it was this problem which caused the friction between the Jesuit missionaries and the secular colonists. Mining for gold and silver had nothing to do with the problem between the Jesuits and the colonists, yet the colonists could not complain that the Jesuits were preventing them from enslaving the natives because the enslavery of fellow Christian subjects was against Spanish Royal Law.

Everyone, including the nobility, KNEW what the REAL problems were, yet they could not address the actual problems because that would have been a politically fatal manuver. Nobody could discuss the need for slaves, or endentured servants because enslaving fellow Christians or endenturing them was against the tenants of the Roman Catholic faith, yet at the same time the nobility needed to do something to ensure that the colonies remained a steady source of revenue. Therefore, they expelled the Jesuits, in the false hope that this would resolve the labor issues. And the Jesuit expulsion did solve all the problems. For about a decade and then the REAL problems began!

Historically, the expulsion of the Jesuits from the New World colonies spelled doom for the Spanish and Portuguese holdings in the New World and within 50 years of the Jesuit expulsion, the indigenious populations rose up against the colonists and the nobility throughout Latin America and became independent nations. This was the net result of the greed of the settlers, my friend.

Our problem now lies with the fact that many people tend to take everything at face value. If they read about a Jesuit community mining for gold, they tend to believe it without searching for a motive behind the accusation. Of course nobody seems to question these rather outlandish statements as it plainly obvious by the their line of reasoning and the circumstantial evidence which they attempt to pass off as some sort of proof.

If I were the king of Spain and heard from the colonists that the Jesuits were illegally mining for gold and/or silver, my very first thought would have been "What is the world is stopping YOU from doing the exact same thing as the Jesuits? Why can't YOU mine for gold and silver, instead of bellyaching to the Crown about someone else doing it?"

I happen to know a bit about the Spanish culture(not hispanic or Latin American, but true Spanish) and this is EXACTLY how they thought, my friend. If the Jesuits were working a rich vein, then sure enough there would have been at least two dozen colonists working it right along with them. This is how they were. The Crown of Spain knew that the accusations of Jesuits mining for gold and/or sulver were false, yet the false accusations served to underscore a more deeply rooted problem, which was the labor shortage which the settlers constantly were faced with due to the intervention of the Jesuit missionaries.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Ritchie]

Lamar wrote:

“Dear Ritchie;
There's no problem with the scenario at all my friend, except that the focus is too tight on mining and mineral exploitation when we know that this aspect was not even a real consideration which got the Jesuits expelled from the colonies.


Good Morning my Friend Lamar,

I was intentionally keeping the scenario focused tightly on the subject of mining. I am not trying to work you into any kind of corner Lamar. The only answer I seek from you, is whether or not you believe the Jesuits could have been involved with mining (as representatives of the church) and been compensated for it without breaking their vows, and I believe you have answered that question.

If you accept my scenario as written. Where the Jesuits did not own any mines, but were merely representatives of the church, in an alliance with the King, for which they received compensation, (not for themselves) but for the purpose of building new Missions, and saving more souls. Then I do not have to go any farther with my scenario.

The gap (grey area) between you and Oroblanco has been bridged. The only concession he has to make is to quit referring to “Jesuit Mines” and refer to them as either “Church Mines”, or the “Kings Mines”.

Getting back to the subject of this discussion. JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL? We still have not answered that question, but we have established that the new world missions, may have had the opportunity to accumulate some valuables, which some people could call “Treasures”. It is not unreasonable to assume that these valuables would be collected in times of unrest, and placed somewhere for safe keeping until the unrest was over.

If a situation ever came about where the person that hid these valuables away, was for one reason or another, never able to retrieve them, and those that helped him do it (if applicable), never revealed the location where they were hidden. Then there is a possibility that the legends about hidden/buried “Jesuit Treasure” could be true. It does not prove anything. It just allows for the possibility without suggesting any wrongdoing on anyone's part.

With that, you can consider yourself successful in defending the honor of the Jesuits, and Oroblanco can consider himself successful defending his position, that it is conceivable that there are so called “Jesuit Treasures” out there to be found.

The only losers are the people who claim that the Jesuits were disloyal and violated their vows, and the ones who claim that the legends of buried Jesuit Treasure are completely unfounded.

For myself, the answer to the question - JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL? The answer is - There is no evidence that they do not exist, and a very good possibility that they could. Until someone actually finds a buried treasure, that can be linked to the Catholic Church, and makes the find known to the Public. I cannot see how any further discussion; debate or arguing about it could possibly result in any other conclusion.

Ritchie

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Springfield: you posted -->Don Jose, your discoveries sound intriguing. Out of curiosity, what sort of data do you have that convinces you that you will locate the items you've described
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Simply because I have already located two of the deposits, but until the permits arrive, they will stay closed. this tends to assure gov't complience, or shall we say cooperation..

Incidentally, I have posted pictures in TN under the Tayopa series, which also shows them, but where in which pictures are they? snicker.

This information is NOT written down, but Oro will be privy to it if he & Beth decide to become associates / partners and to work at / on his 'personal schedule', which will be determined by the stock market finally giving me back my operating funds. My wife sold the rights to another mine for Approx. $ xxx,xxx just before the market went kaput. It is climbing back up. High state assays show over $5,000, low $2000.

So yes Springfield, I do know and appreciate your excellent advice on
mines. Thanks.

Keep em coming my friend.

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I would say, from what I have read, that you have explained the situation perfectly. The only thing standing between most of the natives and enslavement, was the Jesuits. That and their success at agricultural and animal husbandry.

Spain, too late, realized how much damage was done in the New World by expelling the Jesuits. That damage continues to this day. With all of it's natural resources, manpower and land mass, Mexico remains a third world country. Other than the Yaquis, one of the Jesuits most successful endeavors, most of the Native populations were devastated, and remain so today......at least those who survived.

Our new friend, Ritchie, has written:

"You do not know any of this to be fact. You are forming conclusions based on assumptions that everything you have read is true. This is the type of attitude that turns this kind of discussion into an argument."

He now writes:

"If you accept my scenario as written. Where the Jesuits did not own any mines, but were merely representatives of the church, in an alliance with the King, for which they received compensation, (not for themselves) but for the purpose of building new Missions, and saving more souls. Then I do not have to go any farther with my scenario."

He advances this assumptive "scenario" without offering a single piece of historical documentation or evidence. Actually, it comes from the thin air between Ritchies ears. I don't believe he will be rewriting the history books anytime soon.

I personally, would not accept his scenario without some solid evidence to back it up. I have serious doubts that you will either. Does that mean he will have to go "farther" with his "scenario"? Perhaps, considering his disdain for those who get their historical knowledge from the written word, he will make an attempt to explain where his historical knowledge originates.

I can't wait to see where this takes us.

All of the above is based on the books I have read and the many discussions and debates I have engaged in over the years. Thus, it is just my opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"....the leap frog missions across Northen Mexico to below Maramorros."

Could you do us the favor of naming these "underground railroads" of missions that were moving the results of the Jesuit mining out of Mexico?

Thank you in advance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Lamar: for some reason you consistently ignore my data on the actual reason for the Jesuit expulsion, confirmed indirectly by the audience in Rome.

Also critical in the expulsion order was the timing. A simple expulsion could be acomplished by a general order, however, in this case, it was on a certain date and almost the same hr.

This would only be necessary to nip a political / semi military plot, in the bud, which it was.

Further, my finding the clandestine route for transporting the mined metal to Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome is ignored. Many of these missions still exist to an extent. this will be my proximate program to find all that still have a physical evidence of existence.

Why it is actually considered such a horrible crime that the Jesuits had some of their trained Mining engr' mining is beyond me.

Agreed, the Jesuit Missionary prob. wasn't mining, but the society was.

Question, was the Jesuit mining Engr. a confirmed priest ? <- Bridge.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Further, my finding the clandestine route for transporting the mined metal to Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome is ignored. Many of these missions still exist to an extent. this will be my proximate program to find all that still have a physical evidence of existence."

I am not ignoring your Jesuit "route". Can you tell us the names of those missions and how many there were? I believe you may have mentioned that they were at set distances apart. That being the case, you would have a pretty good idea of the number.

Take care,

Joe

 

[rochha]

Joe,

“ He advances this assumptive "scenario" without offering a single piece of historical documentation or evidence. Actually, it comes from the thin air between Ritchies ears. I don't believe he will be rewriting the history books anytime soon. ”

Why must you insult someone like this in a post?

“ Could you do us the favor of naming these "underground railroads" of missions that were moving the results of the Jesuit mining out of Mexico? “

Why should he, you wont believe it anyway unless there is historical documented proof.

Respectfully,

Rochha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

The account of the Jesuit priest who became insane on hearing the decree read can be found in "Missionary In Sonora", which is the account written by Father Joseph Och, S.J. and translated by Theodore E. Treutlein.

"What manner of emotional manifestations now occurred can more easily be imagined than described. Some stood there quite dumfounded and immobile; tears streamed from the eyes of others. Some lifted their hands and eyes passively to heaven while others sobbed. One became insane on the spot, and another had a fit of apoplexy."

For anyone imagining great Jesuit wealth, this book would be a good one to read. "The account of the Jesuit expulsion from Mexico left by Father Och is the most complete and most important of the eyewitness accounts of this confusing and still controversial event....." What we have here is an "eyewitness" account. Since we can no longer question Father Och directly, we are left with his written account. That remains the "best evidence" to the events that took place during the expulsion. Added to other similar accounts from the era, it helps build a vivid picture of what happened.....from those who were there.

Don't mean to be "argumentative", but that remains the historical record at this time.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie,

This was Ritchie's very first post addressing me, at least using "Richie" as and idintity:

[Joe wrote - "The rumors of Jesuit treasure and mines are over 242 years old. Not ONE mission possessed the treasures the soldiers were looking for. That means either the Jesuits had ample warning of what was coming, or there was no true treasure in the first place. Not ONE of the Jesuit mines was found. One wonders just how much time they had to hide all evidence of mining.

One of the Jesuit priests actually went mad when the order of expulsion was read. It seems unlikely that he knew in advance. No advance of soldiers on the missions would have gone unnoticed by the Indians. Assuming that is true, it seems natural that the Jesuits would have gone out to meet them. I would like to reread that particular event".

Joe,

You do not know any of this to be fact. You are forming conclusions based on assumptions that everything you have read is true. This is the type of attitude that turns this kind of discussion into an argument.

ie: Not ONE of the Jesuit mines was found. Where did you read that? From what source did you learn it if you did not read it somewhere? How can you conclude it to be true, when more likely than not, any mines that were found were kept secret by the finders? It is you my friend that that will destroy an effort to build a bridge across the Grey area, if you do not stop making these kind of posts.

If you do not wish to participate in the effort to build the bridge, please do not disrrupt the rest of us from trying.

Ritchie]
______________________________________________

Now you, my friend, may not find that highly insulting, but I do. Every statement I made was "historically" correct. This was my rather even handed and restrained reply:


[Ritchie,

Thank you for your reply and critique of my knowledge. I am sure, you believe, you are correct.

"You do not know any of this to be fact. You are forming conclusions based on assumptions that everything you have read is true. This is the type of attitude that turns this kind of discussion into an argument."

Your own attitude seems a bit aggressive and argumentative for someone who has been in this discussion for such a short time. Despite that, I am more than happy to address your points.

You are assuming that you know all of my sources. You are also assuming that I only get my information from books. While that is a major source for me, another that I rely on heavily is personal contact with a number of archaeologists and historians, who are kind enough to reply when I have a question.

Since none of us were there when these events took place, we are all assuming that our sources are as good as it gets. That would, of course, include Ritchie.

Since you have denigrated books as a viable source for historical facts, perhaps you can name something that you feel is a better source for the "best evidence". Please make sure that any source that you use did not use books, manuscripts or historical documents as a source.

Many of the books I have read were written by the people who lived the events we are debating. You can assume they are lying if you like, but without some kind of compelling proof, I will continue to accept them as the "best evidence" available.

On the other hand, I know that everything I have read is demonstrably not true. That is why I read and own so many books. I look for corroborating stories from the other writers from that era. That is how I form my opinions and in some cases my conclusions.

How do you arrive at such things?

[I.e.: Not ONE of the Jesuit mines was found. Where did you read that? From what source did you learn it if you did not read it somewhere? How can you conclude it to be true, when more likely than not, any mines that were found were kept secret by the finders? It is you my friend that that will destroy an effort to build a bridge across the Grey area, if you do not stop making these kind of posts.]

Reread what I have written above.

Let's get something else straight, while we're at it: This building of bridges across grey areas is your baby, not mine. It may be grey, and it may need a bridge, but I will continue to carry on the conversation as I see fit. If someone, like you, wants to build a bridge to an area that is not supported by the existing historical facts, count me out.

I don't believe in changing history one word at a time or entire bridges.........without facts. Now if you want to continue in this debate, get off your high horse and bring some facts, rather than conjecture, to the table.

"If you do not wish to participate in the effort to build the bridge, please do not disrrupt the rest of us from trying."

As soon as you are put in charge here, you can start dictating how the conversations will be shaped and who will be allowed to participate.

Your friend,

Joe Ribaudo]
______________________________________

Since you chose to sit on your hands while Ritchie was telling me how stupid I am, I will assume you agree with everything he wrote in the above post. Since that may very well be true, I have no problem with your voicing your opinion on what has taken place. I reserve my right to return insult for insult and respect for respect. If you have a serious problem with that, take it up with the moderators. I am more than willing to accept their, unbiased, opinion. In fact, I am inclined to ask them myself.

When an agenda raises its ugly head so early in someone's initial postings, it should raise a red flag for everyone.......excluding you, of course.

Take care,

Your friend, Joe

 

[rochha]

“ Joe,

You do not know any of this to be fact. You are forming conclusions based on assumptions that everything you have read is true. This is the type of attitude that turns this kind of discussion into an argument.

ie: Not ONE of the Jesuit mines was found. Where did you read that? From what source did you learn it if you did not read it somewhere? How can you conclude it to be true, when more likely than not, any mines that were found were kept secret by the finders? It is you my friend that that will destroy an effort to build a bridge across the Grey area, if you do not stop making these kind of posts.

If you do not wish to participate in the effort to build the bridge, please do not disrrupt the rest of us from trying.

Ritchie “

All I see here is someone asking you how you came to those conclusions and what your sources were for those conclusions. I have seen you do the same. Only your posts are more eloquently laced with sarcasm. In another post prior to that he even used the words “ please “ and called you “ friend “.

I find the below statement you said about yourself to be so very true.

“ Over the years, I have been accused of slinging a little sarcasm, so I believe I am probably well qualified to recognize it when I see it. “

I have known you for a few years. The very first time we met you said something to me that said a lot about you. You told me “ You like to stir the pot “. This quote below would seem to indicate that you still do.

“ If you are determined to pursue with this attitude, then the rest of us might as well let you think you have won, and let the matter drop, for as I am sure you know. Nobody can tell what is in the soup, while someone is constantly stirring it up, and adding more to it with every opportunity. “

You like to stir the pot!

I have seen for years that above statement to be true. You seem to thrive on making posts that are carefully worded with sarcasm loaded with puns. Sometimes you even bring to a posters attention that they have misspelled a word or someone’s last name. All while trying to make it look respectful when it isn’t.

While this may seem to be a personal attack on you it isn’t. I got caught up in the same, I made a post that was laced with sarcasim and insults. At the time of making that post I did not realize how it looked. It took a post by you after my post for me to realize this was a distraction to the discussion. I re edited the post and sent an apology to Lamar via a pm. He told me there was no need to apologize. I replied there was a reason. I had re read my post and it seemed hateful and anti catholic. Something I had no intention of presenting. I had the testicular gerth to admit I was wrong and out of line.

It would be nice to see this thread continue with out sarcasm & insults for they are distractions.

By the way…….I don’t sit on my hands either.

Respectfully,

Rochha

 

[lamar]

Morning Lamar: for some reason you consistently ignore my data on the actual reason for the Jesuit expulsion, confirmed indirectly by the audience in Rome.

Also critical in the expulsion order was the timing. A simple expulsion could be acomplished by a general order, however, in this case, it was on a certain date and almost the same hr.

This would only be necessary to nip a political / semi military plot, in the bud, which it was.

Further, my finding the clandestine route for transporting the mined metal to Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome is ignored. Many of these missions still exist to an extent. this will be my proximate program to find all that still have a physical evidence of existence.

Why it is actually considered such a horrible crime that the Jesuits had some of their trained Mining engr' mining is beyond me.

Agreed, the Jesuit Missionary prob. wasn't mining, but the society was.

Question, was the Jesuit mining Engr. a confirmed priest ? <- Bridge.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Actually, there was a very good reason for the secrecy pretaining to the explusion order and it's execution timing. The Crown did not want any bloodshed, which was a distinct possibility had anyone recived word of the expulsion prior to it's immediate execution.

An interesting item which most people do not know is that the Jesuits were arming and training their subject charges in defense of their individual missions and reductions. This occurred quite frequently and we may read of requests by Jesuit missionaries, asking for permission to arm and equip the their native charges in order for them to have been able to defend themselves.

Interestingly enough, it was never once stated against WHOM the natives were defending themselves or WHY there would have been a need for the natives to defend themselves in the first place, yet everyone knew the underlying answer already, therefore that issue did not need to be discussed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Charlie,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You, my friend, have always had blinders on. "Please" inserted into a post laced with insults, does not erase those slights. For you, obviously, it does. In the past each and every time I made a mistake in spelling or punctuation, there were those who took great relish in pointing it out. If I did it in return, and I did, it was simply to retaliate. You looking neither left , right nor behind, (blinders) saw fault only in my replies and never what prompted them. Pretty much exactly what you have done here.

If you would care to drag my quotes, from anywhere, here, I will be happy to quote what I am replying to. That is not to say I have not made mistakes, some serious ones, but when that has happened I have offered sincere apologies along with admitting where I went wrong. That's how life is, with humans. Some let it go at that, others hold onto it for life, marking down every imagined slight or mistake the offender makes, against anyone......for eternity.

You have brought your smoldering resentment for me, into an exchange that you are far removed from. You have also explained why Jose should not to be expected to answer a few simple questions. I appreciate, just as I am sure Ritchie and Don Jose do, your speaking for them. I expect Jose can and will speak for himself, as well as deciding if he should answer my questions, without any help from you. The same can be said for Ritchie, except for the fact that he has run away and hidden from a dissenting opinion.

A truer statement has never been made. I do stir the pot. I do that by not agreeing with every comment that is uttered by others. I don't just say.....Hey! That's not so! I do it by bringing references from reliable sources, mostly books, but sometimes from archaeologists and historians. That rubs a lot of people the wrong way, like you. You present my "stirring the pot" as something that stands alone without supporting evidence.

As I said, you are welcome to your opinion about me or anything else. Nothing you can say will ever stop me from "stirring the pot" as I see the phrase. If you see it as simply causing trouble, that's your view.......restricted as it is by blinders and such.

Take care,

Your friend, Joe

 

[rochha]

Joe,

I have no smoldering resentment for you. I have always thought you were a highly intelligent person. We may not always agree on things and I have left it at that. You may be reading more into my posts when we disagree then what’s there. Sometimes when exchanging posts because it is not a face to face conversation things can be taken the wrong way or misunderstood.

There always seems to be a familiar theme with you when posting in forums. It is always some one else who started it first. That is not always the case, this I have seen with my own eyes. I have no desire or the time to drag quotes from other posts to prove what I am talking about.

“You looking neither left , right nor behind, (blinders) saw fault only in my replies and never what prompted them. Pretty much exactly what you have done here. “

I disagree here, I still see nothing wrong with the post Richie made when asking you about your conclusions and sources. In this case I think it was you that read more into it and took what he was saying the wrong way. As I pointed out above, something that happens often when posting vs. actually speaking.

“ I do it by bringing references from reliable sources, mostly books, but sometimes from archaeologists and historians. That rubs a lot of people the wrong way, like you. “

This does not rub me the wrong way, what rubs me the wrong way is the sarcastic innuendoes that are contained in your posts when making your point.

People are entitled to their own opinions and for the most part that is ok. I guess for me it boils down to how those opinions are presented and debated.

I have never pointed out a misspelling that you have done, you have done that with me many times in the past. I find it insulting and unnecessary.

“ That is not to say I have not made mistakes, some serious ones, but when that has happened I have offered sincere apologies along with admitting where I went wrong. “

I did not mean to imply that you don’t.

It would just be nice to see this discussion continue without sarcasm and insults from anybody. That’s all I am trying to say and this will be the last post by me about it.

Rochha

 

[lamar]

Dear roccha;
You wrote:
This does not rub me the wrong way, what rubs me the wrong way is the sarcastic innuendoes that are contained in your posts when making your point.

My question is this, my friend. Isn't the word INNUENDO actually the Italian name for Preparation H?
Your friend;
LAMAR