JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

Please don't continue to avoid the questions I raise by deflecting the argument. The Jesuit mindset is a given. The question at hand is, in a nutshell, can we believe the unverified rumors of massive precious metals caches hidden somewhere in the environs of Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley - the fruits from the brothers' apparent bonanza mining discoveries somewhere in the vicinity? Their mining acumen and their penchant for tricking out their churches is well established, sure, but does their mindset, training and love of bling prove those rumors?

I am not sure why you are zeroing on the Santa Cruz Valley because that isn't the subject or point of this thread. If that is the area of your interest, that could be the subject of another thread, and one that I would be interested in participating in.

In this thread we have established that the Jesuits were "prone to acquistiveness" (in the Pope's word) as Roy points out. This included precious metals. We have pointed out that this is in line with their extremist mindset, and in line with the philosophy of their founder, Loyola, who believed that a well-adorned church was most effective.

Yet, when the Spanish came to arrest the Jesuits, in 1767, they came away empty-handed. And so did Fr. Serra (at least publicly) when he came into possession of the Jesuit missions.

Logic dictates that all the "bling" as you call it, simply didn't vanish into thin air. It had to go somewhere, and if we are to judge by what the Jesuits did in South America, there was a prodigious amount of "bling" to either conceal or transport.

And looking at the long history of Jesuit prosecution, we know that they were so skilled in concealment that they gave meaning to the term "Priest Hole." So it is not illogical to consider that some or most of their "bling" was concealed, because precious metal is not easily transported.

We can believe the magazine stories, if we want to, putting gullibility issues aside. Humans are quite willing to die defending their beliefs, but unfortunately, that doesn't make those beliefs true. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Please don't keep arguing that 'they would' or 'they could' - we all know that. Show me that 'they did'. Then, the Arizona Jesuit miners will become like Secretariat, not California Chrome (this is a horse racing analogy relating to results trumping bravado and high hopes).

I don't believe any magazine stories that cannot be independently verified or at least confirmed.

You have already been shown that 'they did' engage in concealment, whether with Kino, or Keller, both of who 'concealed church treasure' during uprisings. You have also been shown that some of those concealments were recovered, such as the 82 lb discovery, or Kenworthy's 1028 silver bars, both of which occured in the Santa Cruz Valley, near Nogales.

 

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[Springfield]

... I don't believe any magazine stories that cannot be independently verified or at least confirmed.

You have already been shown that 'they did' engage in concealment, whether with Kino, or Keller, both of who 'concealed church treasure' during uprisings. You have also been shown that some of those concealments were recovered, such as the 82 lb discovery, or Kenworthy's 1080 silver bars, both of which occured in the Santa Cruz Valley, near Nogales

Sounds like we're not that far apart - it's merely a matter of degree. Your choice of the 82 pounds and the 1028 bars may be dogmatic 'common knowledge' to many, but I haven't 'been shown' anything about either of them, other than blatant hearsay. The 82 story, based on conflicting testimonies, is questionable at the least, and - with apologies to Mike - IMO Kenworthy is, well, the Colin Powell of 'treasure hunting'. Here's another way of explaining where I stand: I have seen nothing that would entice me to invest time, energy or money in an effort to try to locate the alleged Jesuit Santa Cruz Valley mining caches.

I am reserving my judgment about the Jesuits' 'secret entradas' into the greater Phoenix area and southern New Mexico.

 

[deducer]

Deducer you have hit on another angle of this quandary - if these Jesuit priests (and the lay brothers that accompanied them, rarely mentioned) had gone through such an indoctrination, not to mention privation and personal risk to life and limb, would bother to mine just enough metal to make a few candlesticks? When their Order had no vow of poverty, and they wanted their churches to be "well adorned" eg richly, and we know that the Order had certainly amassed a lot of property, herds, and money, which turned up in odd places. Heck even the Pope alluded to the Jesuits' "unfortunate tendency to acquisitiveness" which certainly would fit with the accusation that they were amassing treasures and properties to the point that they endangered the continued existence of Mexico as a Spanish colony.

Here is a curious passage that makes you wonder about the process of indoctrination, as it occurred back then:



This brings up the question of what exactly this "battle" was, that they were "fighting." Were they perhaps "fighting" the resistance of Indians to convert? Or "fighting" for the Jesuit cause? I think the implicit message here is a celebration of martyrdom, which is in line with their extremism.

I do not see how to make the modern version of the Jesuits, fit with the actual facts of history; firstly they owned mines, slaves, worked the Indians of their missions hard, seem to have failed to teach their Indians even the basics of Catholicism in eighty years work, a number of their mines were found by early American prospectors, yet they were supposedly only concerned about saving souls and converting the heathens? That simply won't float for me. The modern historians almost never mention those mines owned openly by the Jesuits or if mentioned at all, it is a passing notice. Not to mention the rich ornaments recorded BY Jesuits as being in ALL of their missions, including the remote and small ones, which were not to be seen when the Franciscans took over - what happened to that stuff?

The Jesuits of today exist in stark contrast to the Jesuits of the past, and I suspect that many of today's Jesuits prefer to think of their history as starting in 1814, as it seems they would rather forget a very dark first chapter in their history.

Hence the denial of mine ownership is not surprising in this regard.

As far as "what happened to all that stuff," I strongly suspect that there is a Carter moment in the making, that may give sufficient answers to all or most of the questions that we are asking, as well as the evidence we've all been looking for.

 

[deducer]

Sounds like we're not that far apart - it's merely a matter of degree. Your choice of the 82 pounds and the 1028 bars may be dogmatic 'common knowledge' to many, but I haven't 'been shown' anything about either of them, other than blatant hearsay. The 82 story, based on conflicting testimonies, is questionable at the least, and - with apologies to Mike - IMO Kenworthy is, well, the Colin Powell of 'treasure hunting'. Here's another way of explaining where I stand: I have seen nothing that would entice me to invest time, energy or money in an effort to try to locate the alleged Jesuit Santa Cruz Valley mining caches.

I am reserving my judgment about the Jesuits' 'secret entradas' into the greater Phoenix area and southern New Mexico.

Do you mean General Colin Powell? I'm sorry I don't understand the parallel you are suggesting. I do understand that Chuck Kenworthy was a polarizing figure who angered many people with his roughshod appearance and lack of concern for historical preservation. That is, he did not care about sharing what he found or the history he was destroying.

However, I have not found Mike to be someone who misleads or otherwise makes things up, so if he said Kenworthy found those 1028 silver bars, I do not have grounds to dismiss that, and furthermore think it would be unfounded to call these stories "blatant hearsay" in that regard.

Also I am not sure what is "conflicting" about the 82 lb discovery?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning group; coffee? I need some. I am curious why the same order bound by the same rules etc would act so differently in North America and South America, They were bound by the same doctrine NO

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Morning group; coffee? I need some. I am curious why the same order bound by the same rules etc would act so differently in North America and South America, They were bound by the same doctrine NO

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

No, I don't believe they were.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AH HA, xplain joe! Since they were trained in the same doctriine whch requieed unswerving Loyalty to the lleader and cause ----- - and were bound by the same oath.

They mined in the old country yet I don't considered the lonely mission Priest as such but the order

They srill mix in Politics as I have shown in the Mindano story.

How do they justify what is right is wrong for another ??

Yes , I understand about the two councils for the Ameericas' (Indies)

Wondering how a religious order can have two such conflicting beliefs and orders. since the basis of thier supposed order is in following the supposed word of GOD

Jose.

 

[cactusjumper]

Morning group; coffee? I need some. I am curious why the same order bound by the same rules etc would act so differently in North America and South America, They were bound by the same doctrine NO

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I believe the Jesuits of Mexico were given a different set of rules concerning mining.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
I guess no one is willing to try to reconcile the situation in Pimeria Alta as found by father Garces, with the mission Indians apparently totally un-educated in Christian doctrine even after eighty years of Jesuit proselytizing? In other words, silence means assent, that our skeptics find this situation completely to be expected, since the Jesuits spent eighty years trying to catechize and Christianize the Indians, left, and after eleven months time, these Indians had simply and completely forgotten everything?

To our skeptics - do you acknowledge that the Jesuits had mines in Mexico?

We have gone over the evidence, there is considerably more but I am sure it would be as quickly dismissed as the rest, so let us point up that issue - the Jesuits had mines! Were they allowed to have mines? No! This was posted long ago here:

Previously, it has been stated that the Jesuit Precept against mining or having any knowledge (direct or indirect) was first put to paper in 1747, but I have found that to be inaccurate. Found in a random mission was a Precept from Father Provincial Francisco de Arteaga (1699-1702). This would fall right in line with the Jesuit Agreement with King Charles III to have free reign over Northern New Spain with a restriction against Mining. It reads:

No one will possess knowledge about mining either directly or indirectly; even if his intention is to have a general knowledge about everything, such knowledge would fall under this precept.

This precept was again restated in the precepts of Father Provincial Andres Javier Garcia (25 June 1747). It reads:

No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

So, our FIRST official NO MINING Regulation was in 1699. Since this WAS an Ecclesiastical Precept, for a Jesuit Priest to mine OR HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF MINING (at least, I believe, displaying any knowledge of mining) would have been a sin! It would have meant breaking his vow of OBEDIENCE. Above all the vows a Jesuit is required to take, the Vow of Obedience is the most important.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...jesuit-treasures-they-real-3.html#post1642769

We now know that even the temporal records of the Jesuit mines, would not be listed in the official reports made to the Spanish government, for the items to be reported were prescribed, and covered only agricultural products, as well as the number of people. It was against the law for ANY priests or nuns to be mining, and this law was repeated which can only mean that the law was not being obeyed, and we know for a fact that it was not, as the study proved the Jesuits owned and operated mines, including as a part of the California Fund to help support the Jesuit missions there. So it was against the Jesuit Precepts, against the direct orders of the General of the Order in repeated letters and this covered ALL forms of commerce, against the laws of Spain, and yet we know they had mines! How does this square with that vow of obedience? <Not to mention the vow of perpetual poverty?>

We also know that the letters of the Jesuits can not be expected to contain any "convicting" statements, for ALL of their mail was opened and read by the Spanish officials, both coming and going; this helps explain why the strange and otherwise puzzling orders for Jesuits NOT to put things into writing, or to write in Latin, which most people cannot read. Yet even so, we have that statement from father Segesser, about working the mines in the "silver mountains", which must have slipped through, and yes Segesser worked a sizable part of his career in Arizona.

How could the Jesuits have had "illicit" mines, right under the noses of Spanish soldiers, we have pondered, the answer is that the laws and rules were simply NOT ENFORCED; the mines were considered the property of the Indians and the Missions, and the Colleges, so were a 'dodge' about the laws and rules against priests having mines, we know that the Indians could not own property and the padres were their legal 'guardians' hence this amounted to a major loophole for the padres to have mines. As was posted earlier, the priest could literally stand in a silver mine, holding a bar of silver just smelted from the ore, and state with a clear conscience that he has no silver mine! Technically the mines belonged to the Missions and Colleges, exploiting a loophole that excluded all religious clergy from having mines.

We have posted repeated references from the early American prospectors who rediscovered old Jesuit mines, including statements that they found the mines by the aid of Jesuit records found in the missions, records which naturally are not among the holdings of the Park Service today; and this is rejected wholesale. I must wonder why then, these early prospectors would have made up such stories? What did they gain by making up a story that they had found mines by use of Jesuit records found in the old missions? I say that these statements are certainly NOT DISPROVEN, and ought not be rejected out of hand. Neither is this the product of fevered treasure writers imaginations.

Another issue raised by the skeptics, especially concerned Tumacacori, but would likewise apply to Arivaca and Sonoita; that there was no Jesuit priest assigned to them as a resident priest, and by extension, there could not have been any kind of mining going on since there was no resident priest. This reasoning is flawed, for the priests of the 'main' missions certainly did visit each of the visita churches that were allocated to each main mission, sometimes irregularly, but in the priests absence, trusted local Indians known as Temastianes, would lead the Indians in prayers, and all of the missions had overseers and foremen to keep the Indians hard at work. In fact one of the main complaints by most of the tribes in the various revolts against the missions and Spaniards, included that they were being overworked by the padres. So even at a remote visita like Arivaca, which might only be visited by the priests from Guevavi a few times a year, the life and enterprises of the mission pressed forward year round. In fact, one of the silver mines associated with the Arivaca visita later proved to have ore that ran over 900 ounces of silver per ton, for thousands of tons of ore mined by the Americans whom rediscovered it, and this would hardly be considered "okay grade" ore. This was not even the richest ore found at this mine, some was truly 'bonanza' grade. We might also note that the mines of Arivaca were noted to have been shut down in 1767 (source captain Anza) the very year the Jesuits left, and not re-opened for some time later. If those mines around Arivaca really belonged to Spaniards, why on Earth would they suddenly shut down, the instant that the Jesuits departed?

If we try to assign those early Jesuit mines to some unknown, mystery Spaniards, then who or whom were they? There are pretty good records of the Spanish miners for most of Mexico, yet there is very little relating to what occurred in Arizona; the only considerable mining by Spaniards being at the Planchas de Plata, which ticked off some Jesuit padres whom felt this should have belonged to them; there was some minor copper smelting at Tubac too, which may date to after the Jesuits (no way to know for certain) so just who was mining Salero, the Alta, etc? Why would not a Spaniard, file a claim on (denounce) a mine he discovered?
In my view, we have a clear chain here - the numerous sources that attribute the earliest mining to the Jesuits, the statements by the first American prospectors that they located former Jesuit mines, the tremendous wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico and around the world, even statements from the Jesuits themselves like Nentvig and Segesser clearly showing that mines were very much a part of their missions system, where such mines could be found of course; the mission systems were expected to become fully self-sustaining and this meant that the missionaries should have been looking for ways and means for these wild Indians to become civilized and productive members of the Spanish colonial world. The fact that the Franciscans found the former Jesuit mission Indians to have virtually no knowledge of Catholicism helps support the case that the Jesuit padres were far too busy with all of their commercial enterprises, which included mining, ranching and farming. The alternate scenario, with the Jesuits as mainly focused on saving souls, simply will not fit the evidence.

I realize this is so much more wasted virtual ink (and time) as applied to our skeptics, but for our readers, hopefully it should help in making your own conclusions about the questions posed for this thread; Jesuit Treasures, Are They Real?

Springfield wrote

We can believe the magazine stories, if we want to, putting gullibility issues aside. Humans are quite willing to die defending their beliefs, but unfortunately, that doesn't make those beliefs true.

How many treasure magazines do you own Springfield?
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Do you mean General Colin Powell? I'm sorry I don't understand the parallel you are suggesting. ...

. Yes, the military guy who worked for W. Intentional disinformationist, IMO.

However, I have not found Mike to be someone who misleads or otherwise makes things up, so if he said Kenworthy found those 1080 silver bars, I do not have grounds to dismiss that, and furthermore think it would be unfounded to call these stories "blatant hearsay" in that regard.

I have nothing but the highest regard for Mike, and I'm sure he believes everything he posts here and elsewhere.

Also I am not sure what is "conflicting" about the 82 lb discovery?

This was covered a month or so ago on this thread - a reference to a post some years ago about the 82 guy by a very well-informed colleague from Sonoita. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html post #58.

 

[gollum]

Springy,

SonoitaBob from what I know of him is a sharp guy. I don't personally know him. A couple of things he didn't take into account were:

1. It wasn't just Ron. It was Ron, his brother, an engineer friend, and a treasure hunter friend.
2. Most shipwreck gold bars run 20-22 karats (which is about .900 fine). So his whole thing about them being coin melt is a possibility, but it is just as likely they were not.

It also doesn't take into account the fact that a very short distance from the location of Ron's Gold Bars, Kenworthy found his 1028 silver bars. The hole is still there for anyone to see.

Mike

 

[deducer]

This was covered a month or so ago on this thread - a reference to a post some years ago about the 82 guy by a very well-informed colleague from Sonoita. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html post #58.

And I demonstrated that (with all respect due to Bob) because of the Gadsden purchase no Mexican Ranchers could have buried this cache during the time of the Mexican Revolution, and so the theory his group came up with is flawed.

 

[Springfield]

How many treasure magazines do you own Springfield?
Oroblanco

Hmmm, let's see. Pretty slim pickings.

I have only one cover-to-cover magazine: Gold! Vol 2, No 1 (1970). It contains the entire Milton Rose story, "I Found a Lost Mine." It was a gift along with eight other xeroxed Tumacacori treasure magazine articles and a bunch of Lost Adams Diggings xeroxed magazine articles. [These are all fine and dandy, but along with them I was also given copies of two unpublished and unedited manuscripts written by Milton Rose and a copy of an unedited manuscript written by Manuel Ortiz. These are interesting.]

I once gave a guy a copy of Treasure of the Valley of Secrets and he sent me a couple dozen xeroxed treasure magazine stories about sites in New Mexico. I haven't looked at many of them.

I saved a dozen or so original copies of The Institute from the 1990's. It was a Hatch, New Mexico newspaper-format treasure magazine/newsletter with lots of good stuff dealing with archaeological sites, petroglyph locations and local treasure legends in SW New Mexico. Quite a focus on alleged ancient non-Native carvings.

That's all for TH magazines - my focus is different than a lot of others' on the forum, I guess. Most of my information comes from other sources. I've accumulated a number of books over the years too. The ones I like, I'm keeping - many others I think I'll dispose of as I work at simplifying my life.

 

[Springfield]

Springy,

SonoitaBob from what I know of him is a sharp guy. I don't personally know him. A couple of things he didn't take into account were:

1. It wasn't just Ron. It was Ron, his brother, an engineer friend, and a treasure hunter friend.
2. Most shipwreck gold bars run 20-22 karats (which is about .900 fine). So his whole thing about them being coin melt is a possibility, but it is just as likely they were not.

It also doesn't take into account the fact that a very short distance from the location of Ron's Gold Bars, Kenworthy found his 1028 silver bars. The hole is still there for anyone to see.

Mike

Bob is an octave higher than a sharp guy - I'll always support his material.

 

[Springfield]

And I demonstrated that (with all respect due to Bob) because of the Gadsden purchase no Mexican Ranchers could have buried this cache during the time of the Mexican Revolution, and so the theory his group came up with is flawed.

Are you saying that a Mexican in the early 20th century could not have entered Arizona and buried coin melt? I don't follow your Gadsden Purchase idea.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Springfield for your honesty; I was curious about your very negative view toward treasure magazines in general, which may be rooted in the rather restricted sample that you have judged them by.

Hmm I seem to be having some trouble getting a reply to some other questions here.


To our skeptics do you acknowledge that the Jesuits had mines in Mexico?

Seeing that the Jesuits indeed owned and operated a number of mines in Mexico, some as the guardians of the Indians of their missions, how can this be reconciled with it being against Spanish law, the direct orders of the Superior General of the Jesuits, and several written precepts? Does this fit with a vow of perfect, blind obedience?

Why would American prospectors make up stories of having found Jesuit records which then helped them to rediscover the old Jesuit mines? Controversy to attract tourists?

Why did father Garces find the mission Indians of Pimeria Alta to be so (can't use the correct term here) iggernant of Catholicism, after eighty years of Jesuit proselytizing?

Do you see the issues here, with the modern version of the Jesuit priests as a group of highly devoted, motivated 'holy men' whose main concern was the saving of souls, along with converting the heathens?

Alternately, the version of Jesuit history as we find in the older sources, is replete with mining and prospecting activities, and not just for gold and silver but even for pearls and salt. In virtually every land where the Jesuit missionaries were sent, we find that they were very active in seeking out ways and means for the local natives to become self-sufficient, productive and at least semi-civilized; yet at the same time, for some reason did not bother to instruct them in the languages of the colonial powers the Jesuits were operating under authority of, and as has been pointed out in Pimeria Alta, seem to have not bothered to try to teach Catholicism to the mission Indians, according to father Garces, the Indians were mainly just a labor force, a virtual slave labor force at that, the labor not being voluntary nor paid but could be forced labor, and punished with corporal methods if they failed to work hard enough. Archbishop Alonso de Montufar wrote in a letter in 1556 that gangs of 500, 600, or 1,000 Indians were brought in to work, and they became servants of the friars, nuns, and priests without paying them any wages. This condition hardly improved over the entire period of Spanish colonial control. I recommend this article:

Indian Labor at the California Missions Slavery or Salvation? | San Diego History Center
while it covers Franciscan missions in California, it is very much the same mission reduccion system used throughout Spanish America, North and South.

All of this is entirely in keeping with what those "legends" of lost Jesuit treasures and mines state, and helps explain why nearly every tribe revolted, some of them repeatedly like the Pimas, Yaquis, Tarahumaras etc.

I say that the modern version of Jesuit history, as we find in the works of father Polzer, Burrus and others, is bogus. It is a whitewash job, painting the missionaries as saintly fathers, never doing any wrongs of any kind, utterly poverty stricken for their entire history, beloved by ALL of the Indians (except for a few malcontent witch-doctors) and always blaming the troubles that arose with the Indians, on the shoulders of the Spanish, even though the Spanish authorities and colonists often had very little interaction with the Indians, and we know that in some instances, the rebel Indians even fled TO THE SPANIARDS to escape the padres. How can we make that fit, with the 'beloved' gentle, soul-saving priests?

I would point out that Jesuits are sworn to defend their Order against (even perceived) slanders! Rarely do we read a frank, open history of the Jesuits composed by one of their Order.

If the Jesuits were NOT involved in mining and amassing wealth, then we should not have been able to find ANY evidence that they were, which is hardly the case. We have seen father Polzer's dismissive admission that there were "two instances" where priests were "caught" mining, and added that they were "severely reprimanded" yet Polzer was silent about the mines owned by the Jesuit colleges, the ore mills, the mines owned by the missions etc. Why, if he was being the honest upright man that he is so widely held to be, did he not add that several of the Jesuit colleges owned and operated mines, that the Jesuit California Fund also owned and operated mines?

I would say that this modern denial has several reasons, one to cast their predecessors in the whitest of white paint possible, even pushing for sainthood for Kino, and another that the Jesuits have every intention of reclaiming those treasures if and when it becomes possible to do so. Do you think it is just coincidence that we have had Jesuits here in a treasure hunting forum, discussing these topics? If there were really nothing to those "legends" then what possible harm could there be, for some deluded treasure hunters to go off hunting for them?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, and thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Are you saying that a Mexican in the early 20th century could not have entered Arizona and buried coin melt? I don't follow your Gadsden Purchase idea.

Assuming he got past the border, and got past the regulars at the Fort who would certainly would have been patrolling the border at that very time knowing that there would be refugees fleeing the revolution, why would he suddenly engage in a complicated system of burial, involving Mayan numbers and burying his caches in the shape of a cross? For what purpose?

The smart thing would have been to bury them quickly, as the less time he spent in American territory, the better.

And why would he bother melting his coins into Jesuit style bars, and stamping them with the V and cross? Who was he trying to fool? Who would care?

 

[Springfield]

Oro: Hmm I seem to be having some trouble getting a reply to some other questions here.

I hate to see you standing there tapping your foot, so, OK, I'll play the devil's advocate. But, I'm also about ready to continue my real life instead of continuously riding this pony in circles.

Seeing that the Jesuits indeed owned and operated a number of mines in Mexico, some as the guardians of the Indians of their missions, how can this be reconciled with it being against Spanish law, the direct orders of the Superior General of the Jesuits, and several written precepts? Does this fit with a vow of perfect, blind obedience?

I don't care about Jesuit angst, but you raise a good question concerning Spanish law. Why did the Spanish permit Jesuit mining? One answer that reconciles this problem is that the amount of mining was negliable or the quality of the mines didn't warrant action. If the mines were big producers, the Crown would have kept records of their share, no?

Why would American prospectors make up stories of having found Jesuit records which then helped them to rediscover the old Jesuit mines? Controversy to attract tourists?

I'm not really familiar with these anecdotes, but if true, why weren't the famous mines of lore found?

Why did father Garces find the mission Indians of Pimeria Alta to be so (can't use the correct term here)iggernant of Catholicism, after eighty years of Jesuit proselytizing?

Because the natives kept their own traditions and only attended the Jesuit services because they were forced to. They never took the instruction to heart.

... the Jesuits have every intention of reclaiming those treasures if and when it becomes possible to do so.

Wait a minute. Mike said they forgot where they hid them!!

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks again Springfield!

Springfield wrote

Why did the Spanish permit Jesuit mining? One answer that reconciles this problem is that the amount of mining was negliable or the quality of the mines didn't warrant action. If the mines were big producers, the Crown would have kept records of their share, no?

The Jesuits had found a loophole in the laws, by assigning ownership of the mines to missions and colleges; no records were required, big producer or small. Certainly the Spanish suspected that some of the Jesuit mines were producing a lot, hence the searches for hidden treasures.

Springfield also wrote

Wait a minute. Mike said they forgot where they hid them!!

I agree - they have lost the knowledge of exactly where their "ornaments of the churches" were hidden, and I hold that the Indians hid much of this, as we have a clue from the example of San Xavier del Bac. There was ample opportunity for the loss of that knowledge too, in the deaths that occurred during the expulsion, the complete (almost) disruption of the Order when it was dissolved, and a LONG span of time before they were allowed to re-form again (1773-1814 -38 years, plenty of time for the padres to have died off!). In the meantime, paper records could very easily be lost or destroyed, or filched!

I would point out that some of those early American prospectors DID find "famous" mines of lore, like the Alta, Wandering Jew, and Salero, or the Ostrich, (aka Old Padres) the Montezuma, the Heintzelman, among others. We no longer talk of them as famous lost mines like the LAD or LDM, for they were found over a century ago. Who goes looking for a found mine, after all?

Thanks again, I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I am reluctant to answer your questions. I don't find you open to such answers.

On the other hand, I still love ya!

Take care,

Joe