JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Roy,

Something that goes with Father Garces' statement that the Indians were ignant in the Catechism and such. When a Jesuit Father first arrived in the New World, they were reviewed and picked for assignment to a particular area. Before getting to go out and become a full fledged Missionary Priest, they were required to learn the native language of the main tribe in their area of operation. This usually took about six weeks. Some took much longer. If they weren't able to learn the Indian Language, they were sent to work at the Cabeceras or Colegios.

So............................... why would EVERY Jesuit Missionary Father have to learn the languages of the natives in their areas, but not teach them to be Catholics? Maybe because they learned the native languages so they could use that knowledge to find wealth (of many types) for the Order? Just a thought.

Mike

 

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[Springfield]

Assuming he got past the border, and got past the regulars at the Fort who would certainly would have been patrolling the border at that very time knowing that there would be refugees fleeing the revolution, why would he suddenly engage in a complicated system of burial, involving Mayan numbers and burying his caches in the shape of a cross? For what purpose?

The smart thing would have been to bury them quickly, as the less time he spent in American territory, the better.

And why would he bother melting his coins into Jesuit style bars, and stamping them with the V and cross? Who was he trying to fool? Who would care?

There was absolutely no difficulty for a well-to-do Mexican crossing the US border during the revolution. Fort Buchanan was in Sonoita and was abandoned during the US Civil War - along with the Gadsden Purchase, a non-issue. There were military outposts in US border towns, yes, but they were there to keep the trouble makers at bay.

A rich Mexican rancher, possibly one of Diaz's old buddies, may have had plenty to fear from the revolutionaries. His gold would have been much safer on the US side in those days. We'll never know the story, but he could have easily picked an accessible Arizona spot, taken his time and buried his loot. Very plausible. No problem.

Why would he melt coins into bars and use Mayan symbols? ¿Quien sabe? I suppose there are any number of reasons. Possibly he didn't want the gold in the form of Mexican coins for security/deniability reasons. Same goes for the treasure layout - he was burying a lot of gold and wanted a propriatary system that would be difficult to fathom. It was a clever plan - I'm sure if you were burying gold, you'd use a clever plan too. I completely fail to understand your 'demonstration' that it couldn't have occurred - looks pretty straightforward to me.

 

[deducer]

First, I will grant that I erred in not researching Ft. Buchanan more thoroughly. That one is on me.

There was absolutely no difficulty for a well-to-do Mexican crossing the US border during the revolution. Fort Buchanan was in Sonoita and was abandoned during the US Civil War - along with the Gadsden Purchase, a non-issue. There were military outposts in US border towns, yes, but they were there to keep the trouble makers at bay.

Wrong.

Due to the Border War the border was extensively patrolled and in fact, there was a sizable army presence in Nogales (read the 10th Cavalry Regiment) very close to the cache site. Nogales was apparently a hot spot, having been the source of a few fatal confrontations between the US and Mexico. Pretty strange place to cache your wealth if you ask me.

A rich Mexican rancher, possibly one of Diaz's old buddies, may have had plenty to fear from the revolutionaries. His gold would have been much safer on the US side in those days. We'll never know the story, but he could have easily picked an accessible Arizona spot, taken his time and buried his loot. Very plausible. No problem.

I don't find it plausible at all. Since relations between the US and Mexico was very tense and would continue to be, well into the 1920's, this rancher stood to lose a lot by caching his wealth north of the border. He would also lose a lot more than his wealth were he caught trespassing on US soil.

Why would he melt coins into bars and use Mayan symbols? ¿Quien sabe? I suppose there are any number of reasons. Possibly he didn't want the gold in the form of Mexican coins for security/deniability reasons. Same goes for the treasure layout - he was burying a lot of gold and wanted a propriatary system that would be difficult to fathom. It was a clever plan - I'm sure if you were burying gold, you'd use a clever plan too. I completely fail to understand your 'demonstration' that it couldn't have occurred - looks pretty straightforward to me.

A "proprietary" system would be moot north of the border. Who would care?

If he didn't want the gold traceable, he would have been better off melting them into unidentifiable gold bars. The Jesuit marks would have been completely unnecessary. Again, how would that have helped him?

If I were 'clever' and I wanted to bury gold, I wouldn't be burying it just two feet under the ground. I wouldn't waste time with an elaborate burial system as the less time I spent north of the border, the better. I would have located an unique, unmistakable landmark and buried my cache near that landmark and left no physical directions or mark, whatsoever.

I believe the burden is on identifying why a Mexican Rancher would do such a thing when there is no precedent.

The Jesuits, however, have a history of engaging in elaborate concealment schemes as has been proven many times over. This particular scheme is very consistent with what they do, in that it made use of the sophisticated intelligence that they were known for possessing.

 

[FEMF]

Roy,

Something that goes with Father Garces' statement that the Indians were ignant in the Catechism and such. When a Jesuit Father first arrived in the New World, they were reviewed and picked for assignment to a particular area. Before getting to go out and become a full fledged Missionary Priest, they were required to learn the native language of the main tribe in their area of operation. This usually took about six weeks. Some took much longer. If they weren't able to learn the Indian Language, they were sent to work at the Cabeceras or Colegios.

So............................... why would EVERY Jesuit Missionary Father have to learn the languages of the natives in their areas, but not teach them to be Catholics? Maybe because they learned the native languages so they could use that knowledge to find wealth (of many types) for the Order? Just a thought.

Mike

Hello Mike
Have you ever wonder why these bars where alloyed to the point that they appear to look like brass? As anyone who has panned gold in Arizona knows that our gold is like 96% pure and that smelting gold will obtain about the same percentage. Just wondering!
FEMF

 

[Springfield]

Wrong.

Due to the Border War the border was extensively patrolled and in fact, there was a sizable army presence in Nogales (read the 10th Cavalry Regiment) very close to the cache site. Nogales was apparently a hot spot, having been the source of a few fatal confrontations between the US and Mexico. Pretty strange place to cache your wealth if you ask me.

I don't find it plausible at all. Since relations between the US and Mexico was very tense and would continue to be, well into the 1920's, this rancher stood to lose a lot by caching his wealth north of the border. He would also lose a lot more than his wealth were he caught trespassing on US soil.

Wrong? Says who? No disrespect intended, but I don't consider you any sort of authority in deciding the validity of this particular anecdotal possibility. You and I may differ in our opinions, yes, but neither of us were there, so we neither know what, if anything, happened, nor do we know exactly when it did. What if the wealthy rancher, who would have been an obvious target of revolutionaries, was smart and acted in 1910, prior to the the military presence on the border? Ever consider that possibility? Now is the argument plausible?

A "proprietary" system would be moot north of the border. Who would care?

If he didn't want the gold traceable, he would have been better off melting them into unidentifiable gold bars. The Jesuit marks would have been completely unnecessary. Again, how would that have helped him?

If I were 'clever' and I wanted to bury gold, I wouldn't be burying it just two feet under the ground. I wouldn't waste time with an elaborate burial system as the less time I spent north of the border, the better. I would have located an unique, unmistakable landmark and buried my cache near that landmark and left no physical directions or mark, whatsoever.

Yes, I would do something similar, especially with certain technologies available to us that weren't available 100 years ago, or in the Jesuit period either, for that matter. Two feet deep? If you're calling the phantom rancher a dummy for a shallow burial, what about the Jesuits? Two feet is two feet, no matter who was on the end of the shovel. I can't answer why the guy would have acted in the alleged way he did, but I don't see any way of dismissing the possibility out of hand either. People do weird stuff.

I believe the burden is on identifying why a Mexican Rancher would do such a thing when there is no precedent.

No precedent? Maybe Mr. Big set the precedent when TSHTF in 1910.

The Jesuits, however, have a history of engaging in elaborate concealment schemes as has been proven many times over. This particular scheme is very consistent with what they do, in that it made use of the sophisticated intelligence that they were known for possessing.

Please show me some verified treasure cache layouts the Jesuits created. Remember, I don't accept tales that originate in treasure magazines.

 

[deducer]

Wrong? Says who? No disrespect intended, but I don't consider you any sort of authority in deciding the validity of this particular anecdotal possibility. You and I may differ in our opinions, yes, but neither of us were there, so we neither know what, if anything, happened, nor do we know exactly when it did. What if the wealthy rancher, who would have been an obvious target of revolutionaries, was smart and acted in 1910, prior to the the military presence on the border? Ever consider that possibility? Now is the argument plausible?

I don't consider myself an authority either, but I don't see anything wrong with making educated guesses. You state that this rancher would have had absolutely no problem crossing the border into the US, and I pointed out that this would not have been correct due to the hostility and frequent conflicts that resulted in fatalities in the Nogales area. We are speaking of border wars that started when the US suddenly decided to seize more of Mexican territory, prior to the US-Mexican war, in addition to forcing the Gadsden purchase onto Mexico. These border wars or conflicts were so bitter they continued well into the 1910's, with the big battle of Ambos Nogales occurring in 1918, which resulted in almost 40 casualties.

Yes, I would do something similar, especially with certain technologies available to us that weren't available 100 years ago, or in the Jesuit period either, for that matter. Two feet deep? If you're calling the phantom rancher a dummy for a shallow burial, what about the Jesuits? Two feet is two feet, no matter who was on the end of the shovel. I can't answer why the guy would have acted in the alleged way he did, but I don't see any way of dismissing the possibility out of hand either. People do weird stuff.

Again, why the need to pass these bars off as Jesuit bars?

If I am a wealthy rancher fleeing the Mexican Revolution, I wouldn't have the time or luxury to fake Jesuit bars, and once across the border, I wouldn't waste time adding detail to my gold before burying them.

No precedent? Maybe Mr. Big set the precedent when TSHTF in 1910.

I could well be wrong, but Mexican Ranchers aren't known for their elaborate burial schemes.

Please show me some verified treasure cache layouts the Jesuits created. Remember, I don't accept tales that originate in treasure magazines.

Verified as in how? That's pretty much a subjective term. What qualifies as verification for you?

 

[Springfield]

I don't consider myself an authority either, but I don't see anything wrong with making educated guesses. You state that this rancher would have had absolutely no problem crossing the border into the US, and I pointed out that this would not have been correct due to the hostility and frequent conflicts that resulted in fatalities in the Nogales area. We are speaking of border wars that started when the US suddenly decided to seize more of Mexican territory, prior to the US-Mexican war, in addition to forcing the Gadsden purchase onto Mexico. These border wars or conflicts were so bitter they continued well into the 1910's, with the big battle of Ambos Nogales occurring in 1918, which resulted in almost 40 casualties.

I suppose anyone capable enough to accumulate that much gold was also smart enough to cross at some time and place other than during an armed conflict.

Again, why the need to pass these bars off as Jesuit bars?

I just had a thought: how do we know for certain 'Ron' didn't recast the rancher's gold, adding the marks to enhance his discovery? Thanks for drawing out this possibility - or probability - deducer.

If I am a wealthy rancher fleeing the Mexican Revolution, I wouldn't have the time or luxury to fake Jesuit bars, and once across the border, I wouldn't waste time adding detail to my gold before burying them.

See previous response.

I could well be wrong, but Mexican Ranchers aren't known for their elaborate burial schemes.

I wasn't aware that Mexican ranchers' burial schemes have been profiled.

Verified as in how? That's pretty much a subjective term. What qualifies as verification for you?

Well, you're the one who mentioned the Jesuits' history of elaborate concealment schemes. I wasn't aware of those schemes and was asking for details, such as: what was concealed, where it was hidden, what clues were created, how the schemes were consistent with the 82 bar layout, who discovered the concealments, and how they were identified as Jesuit. That kind of verification.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Are you theorizing that someone would create a fake artifact for........unknown reasons? Double shocked!

Hate to break it to you, but it's a theory I mentioned years ago.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Are you theorizing that someone would create a fake artifact for........unknown reasons? Double shocked!

Hate to break it to you, but it's a theory I mentioned years ago.

Take care,

Joe

If I'd had the stamina to read all the posts in this thread, I might have found it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote earlier

I hate to see you standing there tapping your foot,

If I seemed impatient, it is from having a regular pattern of un-answered questions posted. I usually try to answer a question posed to me out of courtesy, but miss some now and then; could not understand why so many were being ignored.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I am reluctant to answer your questions. I don't find you open to such answers.

I am not open to answers that are clearly ridicule, sarcasm and the like. Most people do not appreciate that, and many will often respond in kind, which I am not above for that matter.

Gollum wrote

So............................... why would EVERY Jesuit Missionary Father have to learn the languages of the natives in their areas, but not teach them to be Catholics? Maybe because they learned the native languages so they could use that knowledge to find wealth (of many types) for the Order? Just a thought.

Sound reasoning. Hence those odd passages in Rudo Ensayo about the "missionary" trying to get the Indians to tell where their silver mines were, even making promises, and as in the example of Paraguay where the Jesuits gave strict orders for the Indians NOT to learn Spanish, with strong punishments for using Spanish. Side thing here but the Jesuit 'empire' of Paraguay also included much of Uruguay and part of Brazil, including an area in Brazil that is well known for its gold mines. So the "rumor" of the Jesuits having rich mines there, has at least a strong possibility of fact.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

I suppose anyone capable enough to accumulate that much gold was also smart enough to cross at some time and place other than during an armed conflict.



I just had a thought: how do we know for certain 'Ron' didn't recast the rancher's gold, adding the marks to enhance his discovery? Thanks for drawing out this possibility - or probability - deducer.



See previous response.



I wasn't aware that Mexican ranchers' burial schemes have been profiled.



Well, you're the one who mentioned the Jesuits' history of elaborate concealment schemes. I wasn't aware of those schemes and was asking for details, such as: what was concealed, where it was hidden, what clues were created, how the schemes were consistent with the 82 bar layout, who discovered the concealments, and how they were identified as Jesuit. That kind of verification.

Are you, in fact, suggesting that Ron is a liar?

What grounds do you have for suspecting that he might have concocted the discovery?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ever since Eve conned adam ---------Long before --- Baron of Arizona, ----Hitler -check==. Us- remember the Main and on. Men can be imaginative .

Jose

 

[Springfield]

Are you, in fact, suggesting that Ron is a liar?

What grounds do you have for suspecting that he might have concocted the discovery?

Same as your line of reasoning - it's a possibility.

 

[deducer]

Same as your line of reasoning - it's a possibility.

Please show me where my line of reasoning has ever depended on questioning someone's integrity.

 

[sailaway]

I do not know why there is such a mystery about there being an alloy of silver and gold from that period of time. I know that my Spanish Cobb I wear is an alloy of Silver and Gold and know its source from the Atocha because it was given to me by Kip Fisher in Key West. (Mount looks like this: El Cazador 1 Reales Coin in 14K Gold Mount, Grade Fine, Shipwreck Coin - Mel Fisher's Treasures - On-Line LLC). He and I had a mutual friend Mark Cohan and I had no idea they went for so much till my recent visit to the web page. This is not one of the reproduction coins either, that was made from the lumps of silver/gold found. I used to go out and watch them blow holes in the sand bottom past Woman Key. Looking at the pictures of the Kino bars it is the same alloy. Now if the Cobb and the Bars are the same alloy, would it not seem to be reasonable that they were from the same era and processing method?
How ever Royal regulations of 1565 specifically stated that neither gold nor vellón (copper) was authorized to be minted in the Indies, yet no specific regulation for alloys! So if over 50% silver was it legal? (remember the bars read as silver even though contained 40% gold) more twisting of the rules by the Jesuits? In 1784 King Charles III ordered macuquina in the Indies withdrawn and reminted. The order had to be reissued in 1789, but it remained unfulfilled due to a lack of resources. Was this part of the Padres scam of putting copper in the coins to defraud the public and make a fortune? Nothing like counterfiters operating in remote desert locations and hard to get to. Was this the reason for the smelters? not to cast bells, but to produce low grade coins and low grade gold Bars?

First attempt to defraud: New Spain was making cobs until 1772. The macuquina's irregular shape invited clipping, leading to ever greater numbers of coins below legal weight.

A second illegal debasement of the cob coinage in the Viceroyalty of Peru in 1631–1648 was a major scandal. The public began refusing all Peruvian coins as potentially below standard.

Currency reform of 1686 happened where New Spain was was finally authorized to mint gold.(a new chapter in a way to defraud!)
On May 4, 1754 Ferdinand prohibited the circulation in America of all money coined in Spain, including national gold and silver coins identical with those minted in America. The quantity of overvalued provincial silver in circulation was so great that colonial officials lacked the means to redeem and remove it from circulation.

My main question is this: the Kino Bars being buried, is the way they got rid of the prof that they were defrauding the Spanish Crown? These bars may be exactly what the crown was looking for. Not the supposed "wealth" but who was producing low grade, under weight coins, and non pure gold bars, including some gold bars that were Lead inside with gold on the outside! If so then this means that Kino was not a Saint at all but a Master Con Artist of his time!
Getting rid of the Gold that was below standard came with the Secret instructions to the mints, June 25, 1786 reduced the fineness of escudos to 21 carats (0·875). This should have produced an onza containing 23,681·257 mg fine gold, but foreign assays show the coins only 0·8698 fine, and those minted after 1800 consistently 0·8646 fine. Assays made by Bonneville on coins minted 1786–1800 showed that all silver was minted only 0·8958 fine. (The old, true standard was not restored until after 1821.)

Currency of Spanish America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

gold found 1937
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/cache-hunting/28454-conquistador-gold-found-1937-a.html
gold found 1981
GOLD BAR FOUND IN MEXICO THOUGHT TO BE CORTES'S - NYTimes.com
gold found 1992
Tumbaga Bars - plundered Aztec artifacts
1567 Gold Spanish fort found 2013
Medieval Spanish gold hunters? fort found in North Carolina | Fox News
Spanish Shipwrecks in 1554
Spanish Shipwrecks
1622 Atocha and Santa Margarita
Mel Fisher's Treasures - Historic Shipwreck Recovery

 

[Springfield]

Please show me where my line of reasoning has ever depended on questioning someone's integrity.

The point is that you sometimes rely on reasonable possibilities to explore a topic, and so do I when there are no facts to settle the question - which is all perfectly acceptable. The results aren't solutions, they're possibilities.

Re the 82 bar guy, let's just say I'm observant of discrepancies and have wondered how they might have occurred. I look at the thing not as a question of integrity, but as choices made for necessary expediency of the moment. I've done similar things myself, so I don't have a problem with what he told people. Sometimes you just need to be less than forthcoming - it's part of the game. For me, the bottom line is a warning to be careful what you decide to accept as fact.

 

[deducer]

The point is that you sometimes rely on reasonable possibilities to explore a topic, and so do I when there are no facts to settle the question - which is all perfectly acceptable. The results aren't solutions, they're possibilities.

Re the 82 bar guy, let's just say I'm observant of discrepancies and have wondered how they might have occurred. I look at the thing not as a question of integrity, but as choices made for necessary expediency of the moment. I've done similar things myself, so I don't have a problem with what he told people. Sometimes you just need to be less than forthcoming - it's part of the game. For me, the bottom line is a warning to be careful what you decide to accept as fact.

I prefer working within the confines of making educated guesses, rather than "reasonable possibilities."

Unlike you, I see no reason to question Ron's story, as I have no grounds to do so. Mike who has come across as a relatively straightforward individual has vouched for Ron, and while Sonoita Bob questioned the origins of the cache, he did not question the find itself. You, yourself have referred to Bob as "an octave higher than a sharp guy," so if he didn't question the find itself, on what grounds do you do so?

Not to mention that such deception would require the consistent conspiracy and cooperation to this day, of the four people involved, and sustained deception including staging photos of their "adventures," manufacturing the necessary props, expending energy and time in travel and lodging.

And as with Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps, the question is why? To what profit?

Exposure in a magazine which at the time had a very limited circulation, and furthermore which ran the risk of inviting IRS scrutiny?

If it were their intent to sell the gold for a profit, they would have been much better off selling it still in coin form, and advertising such as a Spanish find, rather than recasting the gold as Jesuit bars, resulting not only in loss of coin value, but greatly diminishing plausibility and inviting suspicion of forgery.

 

[sailaway]

The story goes back to the Roman Empire. The fall of the Empire was due to the circulation of fake coins as I remember from my chemistry classes in College. The Roman gold coins were faked by taking copper then putting it in a silver bath then heated to make a gold looking surface. These coins quickly tarnished and revealed that there was little if no gold at all! (which leads one to wonder where all the gold went?) I have several of these coins in my collection and they are very poor quality. The Catholic church survived all this even though the last Roman ruling city was in Seville, Spain (Italica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I have personally been there and was one of my favorite spots to visit in the early 70's when it was first being dug up. The Catholic church in Seville is made from the upper stones of the Amphitheater. The Spanish had no idea that the Amphitheater floor was a whole section below where they stopped removing stones. This is interesting to me as this seems to be the SOURCE of the New World Order (started with the colonization of the Americas) that was then as it is now! So there is a precedence of this in history even today. The world is being controlled by the money and what better way to get your riches than to slowly chip away at the worlds money one penny at a time.
http://www.andalucia.com/cities/seville/italica.htm

When Romans indeed mint gold coins, the golden coins were used for administrative payments: to pay for seized booty or pirate treasures, as payment of imperial taxes, and to bribe soldiers and troops. Brass and bronze currency, on the other hand, were used for day-to-day commerce by the common people.
http://www.2-clicks-coins.com/article/ancient-roman-gold-coins.html

so common people were given coins that looked like gold but were not!

Springfield wrote:
I look at the thing not as a question of integrity, but as choices made for necessary expediency of the moment.

I however do question the integrity of the Jesuits, the Church and the Pope of that time.

Springfield you like to do the math on questions. If the gold that was in south America was not from mines then it WAS from the recasting of coins and other goods. If what I see is correct then the amount they took from each coin/Bar was 14%. how much went through their hands to amass such a quantity?

Was the story of mines just a cover for the theft of silver/gold from the currency?

Was this the reason they had a bells/adornments story was to cover the reason for having Silver/gold/copper smelters? (remember the slag at the missions)

The Padres offered laundry/sewing services. I see that here on Treasurenet there were finds of Buttons,Pins, and other clothing effects that were not pure. Would the Padres steal gold buttons and replace them with cheaper alloys like the bars that were hidden?

YES! We can fix your coat right up, We will even replace your buttons with new ones at no cost to you! These new ones will even save you time as they are a new alloy that will not tarnish, so you will spend less time polishing. Think of all the Gold and Silver you could exchange in that time! and just from the Military, much less the public.

 

[Springfield]

I prefer working within the confines of making educated guesses, rather than "reasonable possibilities."

Sure ... whatever. Just remember that 99+% of human history is unavailable to us. The rest is just palatable spin.

Unlike you, I see no reason to question Ron's story, as I have no grounds to do so. Mike who has come across as a relatively straightforward individual has vouched for Ron, and while Sonoita Bob questioned the origins of the cache, he did not question the find itself. You, yourself have referred to Bob as "an octave higher than a sharp guy," so if he didn't question the find itself, on what grounds do you do so?

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I don't question the existence of the cache, but I do question its provenance - for obvious reasons.

Not to mention that such deception would require the consistent conspiracy and cooperation to this day, of the four people involved, and sustained deception including staging photos of their "adventures," manufacturing the necessary props, expending energy and time in travel and lodging.

Yeah, but I've seen worse. When you accept that in this 'treasure hunting' field all things are possible, especially human behavior, then you tend to question why you believe the things you do. Remain flexible.

And as with Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps, the question is why? To what profit?

That is absolutely the most probing question that I'm aware you've asked. Why indeed?

Exposure in a magazine which at the time had a very limited circulation, and furthermore which ran the risk of inis, IMOting IRS scrutiny?

If it were their intent to sell the gold for a profit, they would have been much better off selling it still in coin form, and advertising such as a Spanish find, rather than recasting the gold as Jesuit bars, resulting not only in loss of coin value, but greatly diminishing plausibility and inviting suspicion of forgery.

Yeah, it's a cold trail and probably not an efficient use of our time in the bigger scheme of things. My original observation was merely that the story was controversial. And it is. Time to move on.

 

[Springfield]

... I however do question the integrity of the Jesuits, the Church and the Pope of that time.

Springfield you like to do the math on questions. If the gold that was in south America was not from mines then it WAS from the recasting of coins and other goods. If what I see is correct then the amount they took from each coin/Bar was 14%. how much went through their hands to amass such a quantity? ...

I question the integrity of the Church of Rome and its minions from the word 'go'. Not that some of those guys didn't truly have sincere intentions, but as good old St. Bernard observed, "L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs."

Your post is interesting. As far as the calculation goes, whatever the total is, it would have been a boatload.