JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

PS a bit more on Guevavi, under the Franciscans:

Antonio de los Reyes, Bishop of Sonora, on 6 July 1772 wrote a report on the condition of the missions in the Upper and Lower Pimeria Alta. Following is his report on Los Santos Angeles de Guevavi as translated by Father Kieran McCarty:

The village of Guevavi is situated on a open and fertile plain beside an arroyo with good land where the Indians cultivate their individual fields of wheat, Indian corn, other crops, and one small community farm. The church on the inside is adorned with two altars and a small side chapel with paintings in gilded frames. In the sacristy are three chalices, two dishes with cruets, one pyx, a ciborium, a censer, and a baptismal shell - all silver - vestments of every kind and color and other ornaments for the altar and divine services. According to the census book, which I have here before me, there are nineteen married couples, five widowers, seven widows, twelve orphans, the number of should in all eighty-six.

​

<source Los Santos Ángeles de Guevavi - Tumacácori National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service) >

Not an impressive treasure by any means, and yet even this modest amount of silver items would make a respectable treasure.

 

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[deducer]

I respect Roy and his research. I think he is big enough to stick up for himself. Roy sometimes goes on the offensive in putting down the opinion of others on this board. He may made have his facetious comment in humor, but I can read between the lines.

Meanwhile, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else.

You do owe fellow posters the same common courtesy that you would expect towards yourself and your posts.

You have posted some good information on the last two pages and so I am sure you wouldn't like these extensive posts to be dismissed on a pejorative "just because you believe something" premise.

 

[Oroblanco]

PPS just wanted to add one more thing, to support that the "secret" mines in Arizona of the Jesuits were kept somewhat below the Spanish radar on purpose; remember that the one famous discovery of precious metals in what is Arizona at the Planchas de Plata, found by a Yaqui Indian and which resulted in a mini-rush of Spaniards to the site, the controversy over the silver etc. The Jesuits were not happy with the way that turned out at all, they had expected it would be considered the property of their missions. I do not have the name of the author but from what was said about it, a Jesuit wrote a very nasty book about the Spanish over the Planchas de Plata, titled the book "the Idle Spaniards". The Jesuits got burned on that one, so had good reason to keep things fairly quiet about their mining activities, as opposed to the mines they owned openly farther south in the more "civilized" parts of Mexico. It is also notable that almost none of the Jesuits were enthusiastic about bringing Spanish colonists into any of their Mission areas, which flies in the face of the idea that they made their profits by selling supplies to the Spanish. If this were true, they (Jesuits) should have been VERY enthusiastic about bringing many more Spaniards into the mission areas, so they could sell more supplies.

Just want to make a point also, I almost never try to send any message(s) "between the lines". Please do not add things to what I wrote, thinking it was "intended" between the lines, as I simply do not do that. If I wanted to offend and insult, it will be very clear and no need to read between any lines to figure it out. I try to be as straightforward as possible.

 

[cactusjumper]

I'm not so sure that the Jesuits ever built an actual "church" or "mission" at Tumacacori, at least not anything that most of us would recognize as either of those things.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

PPS just wanted to add one more thing, to support that the "secret" mines in Arizona of the Jesuits were kept somewhat below the Spanish radar on purpose; remember that the one famous discovery of precious metals in what is Arizona at the Planchas de Plata, found by a Yaqui Indian and which resulted in a mini-rush of Spaniards to the site, the controversy over the silver etc. The Jesuits were not happy with the way that turned out at all, they had expected it would be considered the property of their missions. I do not have the name of the author but from what was said about it, a Jesuit wrote a very nasty book about the Spanish over the Planchas de Plata, titled the book "the Idle Spaniards". The Jesuits got burned on that one, so had good reason to keep things fairly quiet about their mining activities, as opposed to the mines they owned openly farther south in the more "civilized" parts of Mexico. It is also notable that almost none of the Jesuits were enthusiastic about bringing Spanish colonists into any of their Mission areas, which flies in the face of the idea that they made their profits by selling supplies to the Spanish. If this were true, they (Jesuits) should have been VERY enthusiastic about bringing many more Spaniards into the mission areas, so they could sell more supplies.

Oro, you are frustrated that you can't convince the skeptics about the alleged magnitude of Jesuit mining and treasure caching in Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley, and the above argument is an example why.

The Planchas de Plata incident is a documented event in which a rich precious mineral deposit controlled by the Jesuits on the far northern Mexican frontier was seized by the Spanish, at the chagrin of the Jesuits. An open-minded observer would likely assume, as you speculated correctly IMO, that future 'bonanza-grade' deposits discovered by the Jesuits would also have been seized by the Spanish to exploit their obvious value.

From what we know, no such future seizures occurred. This is a telling fact, IMO. Considering the continued presence of Spanish explorers, settlers, mining entrepreneurs, and especially Spanish military in the region (Tubac presidio, especially), it seems obvious that the Jesuits discovered no more 'bonanzas', or else we would know about them. Your arguments to explain this problem center around the Jesuits somehow being able to keep these alleged bonanzas a 'secret', even from the nearby 'incompetent' soldiers at Tubac.

I am normally willing to stay on board with some pretty wild speculations until reined in by fact-based logic. However, the Planchas de Plata is an example (one of several in this thread) of where I am forced to abandon ship. "What if?" arguments to explain holes in the stories - none of which are impossible, BTW - are simply not convincing enough to support the seemingly overblown Jesuit treasure legends prevalent in the Santa Cruz Valley. Neither do repeated references to Jesuit activities elsewhere in the world - they may show an intent to act, but they are not proof of actions in Arizona. Neither do references to such things as the Molina document, a highly suspect piece of 'evidence', IMO.

You are a tenacious and well-informed advocate - no doubt about it - but so far, IMO, you've only demonstrated that the Jesuits probably mined some modest silver deposits in the Santa Cruz Valley, and any caches are likely church ornaments and possibly modest amounts of trade silver. You are also wrong when you lament that 'some skeptics will never be convinced.' We will when the holes in the legends are filled in. Legends are usually based on facts from the distant past, but those facts are frequently shorter than the shadows they cast.

 

[sailaway]

yes that is very close to my map, yet mine has tree lines and such on it. Look at the bottom of the map and what represents the Virgon de Guadelupe? Look where it says Esta Representa la Virgen de Gaudelupe, however my map shows the representation some what clearer as exactly the image shown here on the left. this monument sits on the hieroglyphic on the map. look under the monument with the M & V on it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Oro, you are frustrated that you can't convince the skeptics about the alleged magnitude of Jesuit mining and treasure caching in Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley, and the above argument is an example why.

The Planchas de Plata incident is a documented event in which a rich precious mineral deposit controlled by the Jesuits on the far northern Mexican frontier was seized by the Spanish, at the chagrin of the Jesuits. An open-minded observer would likely assume, as you speculated correctly IMO, that future 'bonanza-grade' deposits discovered by the Jesuits would also have been seized by the Spanish to exploit their obvious value.

From what we know, no such future seizures occurred. This is a telling fact, IMO. Considering the continued presence of Spanish explorers, settlers, mining entrepreneurs, and especially Spanish military in the region (Tubac presidio, especially), it seems obvious that the Jesuits discovered no more 'bonanzas', or else we would know about them. Your arguments to explain this problem center around the Jesuits somehow being able to keep these alleged bonanzas a 'secret', even from the nearby 'incompetent' soldiers at Tubac.

If you look into the Planchas de Plata, you find that the Yaqui Indian on finding the silver, instead of heading north to Guevavi to tell the padre, went south and told a Spanish trader. This act alone infuriated the Jesuits, whom had long instructed the Indians that they must never reveal the location to anyone but their confessors (padres). Remember that statement from father Nentvig,

"No Indian will show a mine to a Spaniard, even if the Missionary pledges to fulfill promises made".

He was illustrating that rule was strong enough that even should the padres make pledges in support of the Spaniards, the Indians would not tell - and this Yaqui simply went straight to the Spaniards and the rest is history. One might well suspect that Nentvig was setting the stage for any Spanish readers to forget about asking the local Indians where the mines are located, and to his Jesuit readers, a vote of confidence that "their" Indians would keep their collective mouths shut about "their" mines. The area where the Planchas de Plata was located was thought by the Jesuits to belong to their missions, even without any kind of legal document that gave title to the land.

I still do not see the great quandary that you do, that there were Spanish soldiers at Tubac, and yet they were apparently either unaware of the mines in the nearby mountains, or unconcerned about them. I see it that they were mainly un-concerned about them - they belonged to the MIssions, and being good Catholics, they should not raise issues about them. The Planchas de Plata was clearly NOT "claimed" by the Missions, the first word of it was to the Spaniards and NOT to the padres, so it would have been literally 'up for grabs' - it was not "seized" away from the Jesuits even though THEY seemed to see it that way, for the Jesuits had not had any kind of discovery claim on it.

To further illustrate this "collusion" of Spanish troops, there were Spanish soldiers assigned to the missions at various times, not a large force but could be as few as two men; surely these soldiers could see the activities at the missions including ore brought in and smelting, and yet they did not run to the Royal governor to report it. In fact the soldiers acted to HELP PROTECT the treasures of the missions, as in the case at Dolores, father Kino took the treasures of his church there and hid them in a cave, and none other than Captain Manje helped him do it. In fact we would not even know of this incident if not for Capt Manje whom wrote of it. Really the only people that the Jesuits had to worry about were Spanish civilians poking around, and these are the people that the Jesuits often complained about entering "their" mission areas, and made efforts to keep them OUT. By your line of reasoning, Captain Manje would have run straight to the Viceroy to report that the Jesuits had a treasure in Dolores, which would then be seized.

I would also point out that Tubac was not even manned continuously; the residents there, even though required to remain there, even complained about being so exposed and finally got the authorities to assign some troops to the presidio. Not a regiment or battalion of troops, which would seem to be a minimal size force to protect the rather large area, but a single company, and understrength most of the time at that.

You seem to have "homed in" on the term "incompetent" as a descriptive term of the Spanish soldiers. I thought I had tried to expound on that, rather than LOCK IT IN - based on their actual record, the Spanish soldiers were often brave enough, and had some FEW competent leaders like captain Anza, but mostly were led by INCOMPETENT LEADERS, a couple of which refused to even venture out of the fort when ordered to 'punish' the hostile Indians. Even when the Spanish had "successful" expeditions against hostiles, as against the Seris in the mid 1760s, the reality was that they had hardly accomplished anything other than a drawn battle, in which yes, they managed to kill a few dozen Seri warriors and captured a few dozen more, yet they lost even more of their own Pima allies, which was sneeringly described as the Pimas having "deserved" this as "punishment". Read that list of lost settlements, mining camps and ranches in Rudo Ensayo, there are more LOST settlements than live ones, and most of these were NEVER regained by the Spanish. Does that sound like the Spanish military forces were highly capable of handling their Apache, and Seri and Yaqui enemies?

Word of the Jesuit mines DID filter down (south) to Spanish colonists too, and this is why there were expeditions of Spaniards to locate lost Jesuit mines in the early 1800s, when there were Franciscans manning the remaining missions in Arizona. It was not a COMPLETE SECRET, however there were very real dangers associated with looking for them, namely hostile Indians.

Springfield you seem to see many aspects of this in black and white, either the mines were a total secret like the Manhattan project or they would be widely published, either the mines were "bonanza" rich or they were practically worthless. It is nothing like that at all - some of the mines of Jesuit missions were so low grade that no Spaniard could work them at a profit, as was the case in Baja, others were quite rich, as at the Salero or Alta, which makes sense for the primitive methods available to the missionaries. If the mines were SO poor as you seem to imply, there would not have been American miners re-opening them, much less the rather rich slag remaining, which must have come from quite rich ore.

My "frustration" comes from having carried this argument this far, utterly without result insofar as changing any minds. I had started out, and continued for most of it, just making the case to anyone reading it, addressing the title questions of the thread, but some people have always attempted to make it into a personal 'contest' of one person talking to another, which is fine of course but this is a public forum, so my posts have not always been directed to one or two people rather to the CASE and questions of this thread. I don't <personally> care what YOUR opinions are, nor Cactusjumper, nor Igadbois nor Lamar (RIP) - we have MANY more readers following the discussion than are actively posting, whom are trying to judge the question based on what is posted. I don't know about the rest of us actively posting, but I have received quite a few emails and PMs from folks reading the discussion, whom have appreciated the information and enjoyed the debate, but these people do not post and probably will not.

The case for Jesuits having amassed treasures (not to mention properties, livestock) has been posted, and evidence that the Jesuits owned precious metal mines and operated them, which must produce precious metals and yet this bullion has never been accounted for, so really the "side" that I have been posting for has said plenty; over 150 pages so far and no sign that it will end. Had I known that some members would take it as a 'closed' group type debate, I would not have spent so much time nor posted so much. That kind of a debate can just as easily be done by emails or PMs, and instead of posting huge extracts we could have simply referred to the sources and let each other check when desired. I think we have shown that these "legends" of Jesuit mines and by extension, treasures, does NOT originate with treasure writers, which was one point I had hoped to dispel. As to just how rich the treasures or mines, that is largely in the mind of the reader, for what is to one person a "fortune" may be peanuts to another.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield, I hope you find the treasures that you seek, and ditto to anyone reading this post, which could have been in a PM, as could most of the one-to-one type debate.
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

lgadbois

Also , the map shows how the mission was on the west side of the river .
Now , about the word " temple " used in the text , is a metaphor . Every church is a God's temple ,
And the line which unites the mines , runs SE and is west from the mission .
The map which you posted has different landmarks , but the result is the same with the other map .

 

[Springfield]

... Springfield you seem to see many aspects of this in black and white, either the mines were a total secret like the Manhattan project or they would be widely published, either the mines were "bonanza" rich or they were practically worthless. It is nothing like that at all ...

I'm not a black-or-white dualist - I see almost everything in shades of grey. IMO, the veracity of these Jesuit treasure legends have suffered greatly from the exaggerated lore and possible fraudulent discoveries that have inflated them. On the greyscale, the popular legends score about 20 on the reliability scale. As always, my working models change with additional information.

 

[deducer]

Oro, you are frustrated that you can't convince the skeptics about the alleged magnitude of Jesuit mining and treasure caching in Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley, and the above argument is an example why.

I can't speak for Roy, but I imagine his frustration has more to do with the lack of honest discussion than with people not changing their minds. Very often those who dismiss Roy's arguments, fail to address his arguments specifically, or point by point, and either engage in ad hominem attacks on sources cited, or nitpick in hopes of subverting the entire argument, and frequently make blanket dismissals (not to mention disappear for a few pages).

you've only demonstrated that the Jesuits probably mined some modest silver deposits in the Santa Cruz Valley, and any caches are likely church ornaments and possibly modest amounts of trade silver.

Your repeated use of the word "modest" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the old school Jesuit mindset.

Once again, as I have pointed out, the old Jesuits were anything but modest. There is enormous evidence to that effect.

You don't do things "modestly" and get kicked out of country after country as a result.

The papal bull issued by Pope Paul III was Regimini Militantis Ecclesiae.

In other words, a militant organization. A militant organization in whose constitution you can find this statement: "whoever desires to fight under the sacred banner of the cross..." in the very first sentence. Also equally as important was the final bull, Exposcit Debitum which affirmed the Jesuit as a "soldier of God," and to "strive especially for the defense and propagation of the faith."

Militants do not do things to a "modest " degree. They are extremists.

 

[Oroblanco]

Concerning Joe's earlier comment on the secret passage at Tumacacori being proven not to exist:

As a closing word it may be well to mention the underground passages. Most missions of early date possessed secret passages as a means of escape in case they were besieged. It is difficult to locate any of them now as they are well concealed or fallen in. San Diego mission has an underground passage of very ingenious arrangement leading perhaps from some room in the mission to the well at the foot of the hill Its entrance has never been sought for and it has for the most part fallen in as can be found by exploring from the well The passage led underground to the well opening into the side several yards below the level of the grade. The padres could then go and fetch water without being seen by a hostile band of Indians. Across the well the passage continued some distance further and made an exit in a group of palm trees planted by the fathers. Hence in the time of great danger the padres would enter the passage leap across the well and escape by the exit at a considerable distance from the mission. The mission at an early date was destroyed and several of the fathers escaped by this means. Tumacacori is said to have had a passage and the story goes that there was an iron door leading to it in the garden.

Mission Architecture as Examplified in San Xavier Del Bac, By Prentice Duel, pp 45

Would this make it fall outside of the trenched area, that the entrance was located in the garden rather than the church or a building? If the passageway had collapsed, how would it be identified?

As to not believing there was a mission church at Tumacacori, that is in the eye of the beholder. Adobe buildings with flat earth roofs do not look like the impressive later Franciscan structures, but could still be well and richly decorated.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

I can't speak for Roy, but I imagine his frustration has more to do with the lack of honest discussion than with people not changing their minds. Very often those who dismiss Roy's arguments, fail to address his arguments specifically, or point by point, and either engage in ad hominem attacks on sources cited, or nitpick in hopes of subverting the entire argument, and frequently make blanket dismissals (not to mention disappear for a few pages).



Your repeated use of the word "modest" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the old school Jesuit mindset.

Once again, as I have pointed out, the old Jesuits were anything but modest. There is enormous evidence to that effect.

You don't do things "modestly" and get kicked out of country after country as a result.

The papal bull issued by Pope Paul III was Regimini Militantis Ecclesiae.

In other words, a militant organization. A militant organization in whose constitution you can find this statement: "whoever desires to fight under the sacred banner of the cross..." in the very first sentence. Also equally as important was the final bull, Exposcit Debitum which affirmed the Jesuit as a "soldier of God," and to "strive especially for the defense and propagation of the faith."

Militants do not do things to a "modest " degree. They are extremists.

Deducer,

Springfield meant "MODEST" as opposed to the Nazi Looting of Europe or the Japanese Looting of every country in the Pacific. ;-) :-)

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Here's the problem, as I see it. There was little room for any elaborate fixtures at Jesuit Tumacacori. No permanent priest to watch what was left behind. It's true I can't really see any big operation at Tumacacori. Believe it was only a soul factory. If you and your flock survived, you were a winner.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Here's the problem, as I see it. There was little room for any elaborate fixtures at Jesuit Tumacacori. No permanent priest to watch what was left behind. It's true I can't really see any big operation at Tumacacori. Believe it was only a soul factory. If you and your flock survived, you were a winner.

Take care,

Joe

Where does it say that the Jesuit mission <visita> would need to have any "elaborate fixtures" or a "big operation"?

An adobe building, painted and decorated with paintings, silver altar items, crosses etc can be a visita church, and still be a base of operations for the mission system. Most of the "missions" of the Jesuits system had NO resident priest, only overseers, often from different tribes than the locals. If you try to imagine the Jesuit mission at Tumacacori as being a mirror image of the later Franciscan one, of course it won't work. How large was the mission church at Arivaca, or Sonoita, which got a brick church shortly before the Jesuits were given the boot? Why do you suppose the letters and journals of the Jesuit padres complain of how busy they were? Saving souls? I would remind you of what father Segesser wrote, how the "many businesses" he must attend to, rather than getting water-soaked hands from baptisms.

I would also point out that a Jesuit church was built at Tumacacori in 1757, ten years before the Franciscans arrived, or at least it is credited for that, and this too is not known precisely where it was located. Some have theorized it is actually under the current Franciscan structure, which argument has some merits, however there is evidence that the village and earlier church are not on the current grounds at all. The first structure used by father Kino was a simple arbor, not even an adobe building.

Considering the way the mission/reduccion system worked, the padres usually removed scattered Indian settlements and little farms to collect them into larger villages; this was done in Pimeria Alta too, and yet Tumacacori was not removed to say, San Xavier del Bac, which had the excellent fields and larger population. They had reasons for keeping the village where it was.

Postscript, but think about that "soul factory" idea for a moment; if the Jesuits were really concentrated on the saving of souls, why then did the Franciscans (and Spanish authorities too) find the native Pimas and Papagoes did not know basic Catechism, nor speak Spanish, which was a basic part of the whole mission reduccion system? It looks to me that the Jesuits were hardly making "converts" at all, just going through the motions as a part of the 'machine' they were a part of. This machine extended right around the globe.

 

[Springfield]

I can't speak for Roy, but I imagine his frustration has more to do with the lack of honest discussion than with people not changing their minds. Very often those who dismiss Roy's arguments, fail to address his arguments specifically, or point by point, and either engage in ad hominem attacks on sources cited, or nitpick in hopes of subverting the entire argument, and frequently make blanket dismissals (not to mention disappear for a few pages)...

Your repeated use of the word "modest" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the old school Jesuit mindset...

Roy can speak for himself.

Trashing me doesn't negate the points I've raised. A review of my posts on this thread and many others ought to demonstrate that I tend to question fallacious arguments. Sorry if that offends you.

Please review post #2372 and try to understand the context of my use of the word 'modest'.

 

[Springfield]

... Postscript, but think about that "soul factory" idea for a moment; if the Jesuits were really concentrated on the saving of souls, why then did the Franciscans (and Spanish authorities too) find the native Pimas and Papagoes did not know basic Catechism, nor speak Spanish, which was a basic part of the whole mission reduccion system? It looks to me that the Jesuits were hardly making "converts" at all, just going through the motions as a part of the 'machine' they were a part of. This machine extended right around the globe.

That's an interesting point, all right. Is there any documentation that the Superior General absolved the padres of future sins prior to releasing them into the world?

 

[sailaway]

I have been reading the Coronado Expeditions, and have found things that raise questions for me about the area.

1. Where is the Valley of Corazones?
2. Where was the town of San Hieronimo in the Corazones Valley or Hearts Valley?
3. Where is the Indian stronghold on Thunder Mountain?
4. Could the stone Tablets be related to the Coronado march on Cibola?
5. Ortiz was one of the soldiers of Narvaez, who was found among the Indians by De Soto in 1540. (the 5th survivor of 300 men)
Is Manuel V. Ortiz related to this soldier from 1540?
6. Is this the source of the Molina information?

June 17, 1524- Narvaez sails from Spain to explore the mainland north of the Gulf of Mexico
May 26, 1540 - Coronado leaves the valley of Corazones. He proceeds to Chijune chilticalli,
passing Sonora, and thence crosses the Arizona wilderness. The army builds the town of San
Hieronimo in the Corazones valley.
July 7 - Coronado reaches Cibola and captures the first city, the pueblo of Hawikuh, which he calls Granada.
July 11 - The Indians retire to their stronghold on Thunder mountain.

 

[releventchair]

Most posters not so far apart on this thread. No one wants to jump in headfirst without sound basis of depth. Too, some will throw cold water on a hot idea and see whats left after the steam clears. Some are more conservative of effort, that,s sound logic as well. Dang,talking with some one yesterday of a half inch of rain total this year and triple digits in their local makes me envision having the grease baked out of me and being poor quality buzzard jerky. Suggests spending time afield as wisely as possible, though sometimes getting out is alone worthwhile, for some needed, even if not chasing a hot lead....

 

[Oroblanco]

I have been reading the Coronado Expeditions, and have found things that raise questions for me about the area.

1. Where is the Valley of Corazones?
2. Where was the town of San Hieronimo in the Corazones Valley or Hearts Valley?
3. Where is the Indian stronghold on Thunder Mountain?
4. Could the stone Tablets be related to the Coronado march on Cibola?
5. Ortiz was one of the soldiers of Narvaez, who was found among the Indians by De Soto in 1540. (the 5th survivor of 300 men)
Is Manuel V. Ortiz related to this soldier from 1540?
6. Is this be the source of the Molina information?

June 17, 1524- Narvaez sails from Spain to explore the mainland north of the Gulf of Mexico
May 26, 1540 - Coronado leaves the valley of Corazones. He proceeds to Chijune chilticalli,
passing Sonora, and thence crosses the Arizona wilderness. The army builds the town of San
Hieronimo in the Corazones valley.
July 7 - Coronado reaches Cibola and captures the first city, the pueblo of Hawikuh, which he calls Granada.
July 11 - The Indians retire to their stronghold on Thunder mountain.

Not sure how this relates to the question of this topic (Jesuit Treasure Are They Real?) but to try to answer some of your questions:

1. Where is the Valley of Corazones? - As far as I know, no one knows the true location of the Valley of Hearts

2. Where was the town of San Hieronimo in the Corazones Valley or Hearts Valley? San Hieronimo was on the Sonora river, not in the Valley of Corazones

3. Where is the Indian stronghold on Thunder Mountain? I do not know the answer to this one - Springfield?

4. Could the stone Tablets be related to the Coronado march on Cibola? Possible but not likely, what could tie them?

5. Ortiz was one of the soldiers of Narvaez, who was found among the Indians by De Soto in 1540. (the 5th survivor of 300 men)Is Manuel V. Ortiz related to this soldier from 1540? I do not know the answer to this one - Mike?

6. Is this be the source of the Molina information? Very unlikely - the Molina information is relating a mission and its mines and treasure, while Coronado did not attempt to plant any mission(s) beyond the Sonora valley. So probably not.

I hope this helps, and other members here may well have more information (also corrections are welcome).

May pop in later this evening, have another angle to pitch.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... 3. Where is the Indian stronghold on Thunder Mountain? I do not know the answer to this one - Springfield?

Oroblanco

It's about a thousand foot high mesa a few miles east of Zuni village.