JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

Thank ORO and Springfield. I had those questions because I saw pictures that were taken and posted on Google Earth of a towns foundations in ruins that can not be explained East of the Hearts on my map and north of White Mountain. I posted here because I wanted to make sure that Jesuits did not get credit for something that may predate their arrival to Arizona. The Archives of the Indies are wrong about a town built by the Army?

May 1540 The army builds the town of San Hieronimo in the Corazones valley.

which incidentally predates St. Augustine, Florida by 25 years.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Thank ORO and Springfield. I had those questions because I saw pictures that were taken and posted on Google Earth of a towns foundations in ruins that can not be explained East of the Hearts on my map and north of White Mountain. I posted here because I wanted to make sure that Jesuits did not get credit for something that may predate their arrival to Arizona. The Archives of the Indies are wrong about a town built by the Army? which incidentally predates St. Augustine, Florida by 25 years.

I could sure have it wrong about the town of San Geronimo, some sources do make it sound like it is in the valley of Corazones, and other sources seem to show the valley of Corazones as the Sonora river valley, which does not dovetail with Coronado's journal.

In the valley of Corazones which had been given its name by Cabeza de Vaca because the natives at this place offered him the hearts of animals for food Arellano kept the soldiers busy by building a town on Suya river naming it San Hieronimo de los Corazones Saint Jerome of the Hearts. A small force was sent down the river to the seacoast under the command of Don Rodrigo Maldonado in the hope of communicating with the ships of Alarcon Maldonado found neither signs nor news of the fleet but he discovered a tribe of Indian giants one of whom accompanied the party back to the camp where the soldiers were filled with amazement at his size and strength.

<The Coronado Expedition, 1540-1542, By Pedro de Castañeda de Nájera, Francisco Vásquez de Coronado, Antonio de Mendoza, Juan Camilo Jaramillo, pp 392>

So the Valley of Hearts must be on the Suya river.

Thank you Springfield BTW.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Roy can speak for himself.

Trashing me doesn't negate the points I've raised. A review of my posts on this thread and many others ought to demonstrate that I tend to question fallacious arguments. Sorry if that offends you.

Please review post #2372 and try to understand the context of my use of the word 'modest'.

I do agree that there has been much in the way of obfuscation as far as Jesuit treasures, whether distorted, intentionally fraudulent, or storytelling that simply got out of hand. Explicit evidence is near impossible to obtain after 250+ years. Especially coming from a period in time where written testimony was pretty much the only form of evidence, other than oral testimony.

Which is why, a few pages ago, I posited that a critical part of deciding if Jesuit treasures were real and to what extent, depended on understanding the Jesuit mindset, including understanding why and what they were here for.

It has been shown that the Jesuits took to heart (no pun intended) Loyola's position that a church well-adorned was better than a simple church, in inspiring awe on the part of the worshipper. Loyola:

I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church.

And Nentvig:

So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler.

Do you think a "modest" amount of church ornaments would have been enough to inspire awe?

The word "magnificence" does not conjure the image of a silver chalice on a bare wooden table. Rather, it brings to mind something like the large silver hanging lamp that Fr. Och described:

The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp.

Or do you think he made up the story of the sliver hanging lamp?

Was Fr. Nentvig also a liar? Segesser? Clavijero? Jola? Juarez?


Just because the question of what happened to it all remains without answer for the most part, does not take away from the fact that such things did exist. For all we know, some parts of it may have been recovered and converted into other commodities such as the $49,000,000 mansion that the Jesuits put up for sale in 2012.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
I was thinking of posting another long-winded one, to try to show what is wrong with the current, modern view of the history of the Jesuits. Instead, I think the problem can be brought to light just by highlighting one point - the Jesuits arrived in Pimeria Alta in 1687, possibly some earlier activity which is not well documented, however from 1687 to 1767, we have an eighty year span of time, with some 22 different Jesuit padres working in Pimeria Alta over the years. Eighty years of missionary "labors", saving the heathen souls, right?

And yet, when the Franciscans arrived on the scene in 1768, they found the natives could not speak or understand Spanish, and did not know the basic Catholic Catechism even in their own language! Did they forget it entirely, from having almost a year of freedom from the padres instruction? Shouldn't the older folks have known it?

If you think about it, the Jesuits had eighty years of "labors" in training the heathen Pimas and Papagos to Catholicism, yet they did not know the most basic tenet of Catholicism after a year? Were the Indians lying to father Garces? Why did they seem happy to learn that they were not going to simply be used for a labor force for the padres?

I would like to hear how this is explained, if the Jesuits were so focused on the saving of souls, and NOT involved in such "filthy" activities as mining precious metals, which is what the Indians told the early American prospectors. <Filthy as in the pursuit of filthy lucre, so to speak> Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

For our readers, I think this was posted before but rather than ask you to look it up, here is what father Garces (Franciscan) wrote about the state of affairs in the Jesuit missions in Arizona, on his arrival there in 1768 (remember the Jesuits left in 1767)

"He described the Indians at his new mission to Captain Juan Bautista de Anza from the point of view of a fresh recruit to the mission field:

Don Juan Bautista de Anza

My Dear Sir:

I arrived at this mission the 30th of June having been at your house en route, where your wife and servants elegantly put into practice their


[page 27]

charity as you have instructed and accustomed them to do. There is nothing new here. The Indians expect to be advised to go out to campaign. They are very wild, without doctrine even in their own language, because, although they pray together, no one by himself understands. Even the most advanced respond with any word, so I endeavor to get them to come to catechism. Yet it is not achieved unless it is in the greater number of youngsters who do it well. On the contrary are those who have already reached adulthood: these only attend on feast days. They say that they have always been reared so that adults go to the fields and the children to catechism. For the present I do not urge earnestly until I see how things are.

The Tugsones gave me to understand that they have not wanted any other priest than me, having understood the goal I impose on them that the priest does not come so that they might work for him, etc., with which they are rather happy. They have already built me, a little hut among their own. Three times I have been there and I have told them that in the coming month of August I am going to stay some fifteen days, and that they are my children like those of San Javier, and it appears that they are in a good humor.

The soldiers behave divinely, giving a good example in calling these people to the doctrine as any good Christian is obligated to do.

In my harvest time, I expect illnesses and other hardships which everyone has predicted for me. Yet right now only the flies and mosquitoes have moderated. As for the rest, you know how things can go with me.

The Jesuit fathers of San Javier, with all their cows, fields, horses, etc., were occupied with labors, but with my stipend I shall not be, good sire. I commend it to God who alone is able to bring you here, but may it be as soon as possible that we may together enjoy this carefree existence. Here they call one room that of the captain. Thus it has been and shall be, and not for a poor house of St. Francis have they to leave. I await news, and if God aids our arms and some captains or troops are in Pitíc, I should like to know it.

God Our Father, etc.

FR. FRANCISCO GARCÉS[SUP]6[/SUP]
​

San Javier. July 29, 1768.
​

<available online at: 3. Garcés' Franciscan Mission Branch, 1768?1779

I put his date in BOLD to illustrate his arrival in June of 1768, remember the Jesuits left in July of the previous year or some 11 months passed. Father Garces also wrote to the Spanish governor a bit later:

In a letter to the governor of Sonora written the same day, Garcés more fully described the situation he perceived at his mission and its branch. Those portions of this missive dealing with Bac and Tucson bear translation here. They add to the evidence as to how rapidly Garcés learned facts pertinent to his ministry, such as the presence of San Pedro River Sobaipuris in Tucson and the extent of Jesuit christening of Papagos not living in the mission or its branch pueblo:


… These missions of San Xavier and of the Tugson are quiet. The Indians are content to see that our King wants them as people and not as slaves. As regards doctrine: in the Tugson, none. They have not prayed nor have they a fiscal. In San Xavier, a little less than none, because they do not know it either in Spanish or in their own language.


[page 28]

They have never known it in their own tongue. This is not the worst, because here it has never been possible to assemble the married adults, not even on most occasions our own partisans. Consequently, with great diligence I succeeded in gathering the young people, but few married persons among them. I did not employ violent means to overcome their resistance because things are as they are, and so that I might test other methods. Everyone goes to live in the maizefields and plantings, which they greatly love. This pleases me because thus they eat and halfway clothe themselves. I trust in God that He shall succeed in teaching them the Doctrine with the measures that may be taken. In the beginning neither children nor adults came until I personally went twice to their ranchos, by which means I explained things to them and persuaded most of them to come. The Governor and the justices tell them to come and will make them come, because it is convenient thus. By force or by free choice they must come. Yet I am not inclined to be rigorous. I only threaten the children, and I have begun to spank them so that they should not play hookey. In order to do so, I quieted the scruples of the Governor, who put himself up to telling me that he had read a letter that said that one could not strike Indians. In a word, I am not discontented. The young people do well. If Your Lordship should approve, the adults will be treated a little more forcefully.


The people of the Tugson are content. They told me that they wished no other priest than me — but only when they were well informed that the priest would not make them work as had the Jesuits, that the King greatly cares for them, and that they would not be less than the others. They are a bit flexible. Having closed the old site of the pueblo because of the Apaches, they have made me a little hut at my request. They have given me a youth to instruct. I have told them that in August I am going to spend eight or fifteen days with them and that I shall alternate [between Bac and Tucson]. They do not seem to me to put on a bad face [at that].

The governor and residents of Santa Cruz who are in the Tugson say that they are content, that they live well, plant and remain here happily. This they told me after asking me if [the authorities] wished to remove them from the Tugson. I have assured them that the King wants them to live well and to have a priest, but that he will not treat them violently so that they would go elsewhere.


There are people, but not as many as it seems. The Papaguería makes the population bulk large. Now that the Papagos have gone to their lands, however, one sees that there are not so many. Those whom I have recognized at San Xavier do not number sixty families to date, but there could be more. In the Tugson, there are that many more huts for the inhabitants, which is better to my way of thinking, outside of two rancherías. As they say, there is no doubt that there is a baptized multitude from West of this Mission to the North of it, inasmuch as they are mentioned and evidenced by the registers. The 1,108 baptized yields a great discrepancy from the 213 deaths, 246 marriages, and 500 confirmations, all these since the year 1755.


Some of the country people have given me hopes that they will join the Mission. I have promised that if they are sick and call me to hear their confessions, I will go. I promised that I will go to see their ranchos that they say are lacking in water.

<Ibid>

Note what Garces stated about the Christian conversion success of his Jesuit predecessors - as if nothing had been done! Simply the adults were sent to work, the children only receiving instruction! Also note that the Indians were going to be brought in to the missions by choice or by force!

Does this square with the idea that the Jesuits were mainly focused on saving souls, that their missions were "soul factories"? It does not to me, but of course I am just a simple treasure hunter so must be deluded right?

Just wanted to point up what was stated in the earlier post, as to the actual conditions found at the former Jesuit missions when first visited by the Franciscans; this state of affairs would certainly fit the version of history in which the Jesuits kept the natives hard at work, ranching farming, cutting wood, spinning cloth, mining silver and gold, with little or no time for teaching them the Gospels, and does NOT fit with the idea that the Jesuit padres were spending that eighty years spreading the word of Christ.

Note also that father Garces like most of the Jesuit priests, would be alternating between churches, not staying stationed at ONE church as some people imagine the missions to have been; the padres were in a way like the circuit judges of later days in that they preached at one church then on to the next, hence one "main" mission might have several outlying "visita" churches, which while not having a "resident" priest, did have a padre visiting regularly.

Thank you in advance to my questions posted earlier.
Oroblanco





​

 

[Springfield]

I do agree that there has been much in the way of obfuscation as far as Jesuit treasures, whether distorted, intentionally frau dulent, or storytelling that simply got out of hand. Explicit evidence is near impossible to obtain after 250+ years. Especially coming from a period in time where written testimony was pretty much the only form of evidence, other than oral testimony.

Well-stated.

Do you think a "modest" amount of church ornaments would have been enough to inspire awe? ...

Depends upon whom you were trying to impress, I guess.

Was Fr. Nentvig also a liar? Segesser? Clavijero? Jola? Juarez?

I don't know. I agree with your general Machiavellian assessments of the Order though - they would likely be capable of lying if it benefited them.

Just because the question of what happened to it all remains without answer for the most part, does not take away from the fact that such things did exist. For all we know, some parts of it may have been recovered and converted into other commodities such as the $49,000,000 mansion that the Jesuits put up for sale in 2012.

Well, if it all went to Long Island, there'd be no use looking for it in Arizona.

 

[Springfield]

... And yet, when the Franciscans arrived on the scene in 1768, they found the natives could not speak or understand Spanish, and did not know the basic Catholic Catechism even in their own language! Did they forget it entirely, from having almost a year of freedom from the padres instruction? Shouldn't the older folks have known it?

If you think about it, the Jesuits had eighty years of "labors" in training the heathen Pimas and Papagos to Catholicism, yet they did not know the most basic tenet of Catholicism after a year? Were the Indians lying to father Garces? Why did they seem happy to learn that they were not going to simply be used for a labor force for the padres...

I don't know as much as I should about Pima and Papago historical and spiritual traditions, but I expect it may be similar to that of the New Mexico pueblos, of which I am more familiar - especially at Taos. I can tell you that the early Franciscan efforts were 'tolerated' there, but not embraced. The Taos natives resented the padres efforts to erase their spiritual beliefs in favor of Christianity. It didn't work then - among the first targets of the 1680 revolt were the Franciscan priests, who were killed, and the church at the pueblo. Its ruins are still there to be seen.

I believe that the only 'success' that the padres experienced during the period was the labor they got from the Natives. But, remember, the workers received food and other benefits in exchange, which they may have seen as an advantage in their favor. My understanding is that the Franciscans were viewed by the Taos people more as 'bosses' than 'saviors'. Things may have been similar in Arizona.

 

[deducer]

Depends upon whom you were trying to impress, I guess.

We're not talking about who the Jesuits were trying to impress, or in what capacity they thought it sufficient to demonstrate. We are trying to understand their mindset.

Obviously, in that the old Jesuits were militant, we would have to assume that they did things to an extreme, including demonstrating 'magnificence.'

From the following sections from Time and place: The geohistory of art: At the center on the frontier: the Jesuit Tarahumara missions of New Spain by Clara Bargellini, we get an idea of just how far they went:





So from the above description, we can realistically assume that they took the "a well-adorned church is best" philosophy very seriously.

In that regard, 'modest' is a term that does not apply to the old Jesuits, whether in mining or anything else they did.

 

[Springfield]

... In that regard, 'modest' is a term that does not apply to the old Jesuits, whether in mining or anything else they did.

Yes, that may be, but they couldn't control the richness of the mines. If the ore grades were 'okay', at best, for their needs - such as casting church ornaments - then that's what they mined.

 

[sailaway]

I could sure have it wrong about the town of San Geronimo, some sources do make it sound like it is in the valley of Corazones, and other sources seem to show the valley of Corazones as the Sonora river valley, which does not dovetail with Coronado's journal.

<The Coronado Expedition, 1540-1542, By Pedro de Castañeda de Nájera, Francisco Vásquez de Coronado, Antonio de Mendoza, Juan Camilo Jaramillo, pp 392>

So the Valley of Hearts must be on the Suya river.

I believe your source is wrong. this is the time line:

May 26, 1540 - The army builds the town of San Hieronimo in Corazones valley

Aug. 29, 1540 - Hernando de Alvarado goes eastward to Tiguex, on the Rio Grande, and to the buffalo plains. Pedro de Alvarado arrives in New Spain.

Sept. 7, 1540 - Hernando de Alvarado reaches Tiguex. Diaz and Gallego reach Corazones about the middle of September, and the army starts for Cibola. Coronado visits Tutahaco.

September 1540 - The army reaches Cibola, and goes thence to Tiguex forts to winter quarters. The natives in the Rio Grande pueblos revolt and are subjugated.

October 1540 - Diaz starts from Corazones before the end of September, with twenty-five men, and explores the country along the Gulf of California, going beyond the Colorado River. Diego de Alcaraz is left in command of the town of San Hieronimo.

Jan. 8 1541- Diaz dies on the return from the mouth of the Colorado, and his companions return to Corazones valley.

March 1541- Alcaraz, during the spring, moves the village of San Hieronimo from Corazones valley to the Valley of Suya River.

November 1541- Cardenas starts to return to Mexico with some other invalids from the army. He finds the village of Suya in ruins and hastily returns to Tiguex.

The original town was moved and abandoned, thus the Valley of Corazones is not on the Suya River. The second town was in ruins 8 months later.

Sorry about posting non-Jesuit matters here but am hoping to identify a timeline between the Conquistadors and Jesuits.

 

[deducer]

Yes, that may be, but they couldn't control the richness of the mines. If the ore grades were 'okay', at best, for their needs - such as casting church ornaments - then that's what they mined.

Why would they even bother with "okay" grade ore?

 

[froggy]

After all this ‘talk’, ‘fact stating’, and all around ‘open’ discussion, I think the ‘wise man’ would conclude the answer to the original question is…
[h=1]Which was/is: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?[/h] YES.!


Now comes the ..What price is modest …to.. lavish.

And

Is there still something out there to look for and find?

Well, I for one say modest to lavish who cares?

[FONT=&quot]I just would like to find one…How about you? [/FONT]

 

[froggy]

PS as ORO-del-Blanco says...
Lets find some...COFFEE that is!
Good luck to all!

 

[Springfield]

Why would they even bother with "okay" grade ore?

Maybe they needed silver and lead for candlesticks and copper for bells, and there was ore available nearby to meet their needs.

 

[Springfield]

After all this ‘talk’, ‘fact stating’, and all around ‘open’ discussion, I think the ‘wise man’ would conclude the answer to the original question is…
Which was/is: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

YES.!


Now comes the ..What price is modest …to.. lavish.

And

Is there still something out there to look for and find?

Well, I for one say modest to lavish who cares?

I just would like to find one…How about you?

Go for it. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer wrote

I do agree that there has been much in the way of obfuscation as far as Jesuit treasures, whether distorted, intentionally frau dulent, or storytelling that simply got out of hand. Explicit evidence is near impossible to obtain after 250+ years. Especially coming from a period in time where written testimony was pretty much the only form of evidence, other than oral testimony.

I recently learned that those Temporal records, which I have been hoping to find for years, are not likely to have any information about the mining activities. The reason being, these records were kept by order of the Spanish govt, and the things expected to be reported were the number of cattle, the tares of wheat, corn etc - all AG products, which is actually understandable since technically it was not legal for the priests to be having mines as part of their missions or colleges, though this was clearly disobeyed and openly in some cases.

What is tantalizing is the many American prospector stories associated with mines that they found, as they claimed, by following documents from the Jesuit era found at the missions. It is a certainty that this kind of document would be the first kind filched by treasure hunters, and it was not illegal to do so at the time, but it looks like the Temporal records will not address the mines nor what they produced, for this was not required by Spanish law - by rights there should not have been ANY mining by the missionaries so requiring records to be kept would be rather silly. However, it is possible that one or more of these documents clearly tying the missions to the mines may yet turn up, probably in a private collection or family archive from one of those early American pioneers hunting the lost mines like the Alta, Salero etc.

So how do we square the Jesuit soul-savers with the situation found by the Franciscans? Thanks in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

What is tantalizing is the many American prospector stories associated with mines that they found, as they claimed, by following documents from the Jesuit era found at the missions. It is a certainty that this kind of document would be the first kind filched by treasure hunters, and it was not illegal to do so at the time, but it looks like the Temporal records will not address the mines nor what they produced, for this was not required by Spanish law - by rights there should not have been ANY mining by the missionaries so requiring records to be kept would be rather silly. However, it is possible that one or more of these documents clearly tying the missions to the mines may yet turn up, probably in a private collection or family archive from one of those early American pioneers hunting the lost mines like the Alta, Salero etc.

This seems to have been the case, such as with "Peg Leg" Tumlinson.

So how do we square the Jesuit soul-savers with the situation found by the Franciscans? Thanks in advance;
Oroblanco

I look forward to an answer to this question from our skeptics. Especially when no less an authority than Albrecht Classen has pointed out that the Jesuits, especially the German Jesuits were very contemptuous of the Indians. Difficult to imagine that they had much enthusiasm for trying to "convert" or "save souls" with that kind of mindset:

 

[deducer]

Maybe they needed silver and lead for candlesticks and copper for bells, and there was ore available nearby to meet their needs.

Very obvious here that you are not even bothering to try and understand the Jesuit mindset, and are simply trolling which is naturally your prerogative.

Yet if you think that the Jesuits underwent nearly 20 years of training, traveled halfway across the globe, and went 1500 miles north into hostile territory on horseback simply to settle for "okay" ore that happened to be "nearby," just to make a couple candle holders and a bell, you would be deluding yourself, which once again, is entirely within your rights to do so.

 

[Oroblanco]

Deducer you have hit on another angle of this quandary - if these Jesuit priests (and the lay brothers that accompanied them, rarely mentioned) had gone through such an indoctrination, not to mention privation and personal risk to life and limb, would bother to mine just enough metal to make a few candlesticks? When their Order had no vow of poverty, and they wanted their churches to be "well adorned" eg richly, and we know that the Order had certainly amassed a lot of property, herds, and money, which turned up in odd places. Heck even the Pope alluded to the Jesuits' "unfortunate tendency to acquisitiveness" which certainly would fit with the accusation that they were amassing treasures and properties to the point that they endangered the continued existence of Mexico as a Spanish colony.

I do not see how to make the modern version of the Jesuits, fit with the actual facts of history; firstly they owned mines, slaves, worked the Indians of their missions hard, seem to have failed to teach their Indians even the basics of Catholicism in eighty years work, a number of their mines were found by early American prospectors, yet they were supposedly only concerned about saving souls and converting the heathens? That simply won't float for me. The modern historians almost never mention those mines owned openly by the Jesuits or if mentioned at all, it is a passing notice. Not to mention the rich ornaments recorded BY Jesuits as being in ALL of their missions, including the remote and small ones, which were not to be seen when the Franciscans took over - what happened to that stuff?

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Very obvious here that you are not even bothering to try and understand the Jesuit mindset, and are simply trolling which is naturally your prerogative...

Please don't continue to avoid the questions I raise by deflecting the argument. The Jesuit mindset is a given. The question at hand is, in a nutshell, can we believe the unverified rumors of massive precious metals caches hidden somewhere in the environs of Arizona's Santa Cruz Valley - the fruits from the brothers' apparent bonanza mining discoveries somewhere in the vicinity? Their mining acumen and their penchant for tricking out their churches is well established, sure, but does their mindset, training and love of bling prove those rumors?

We can believe the magazine stories, if we want to, putting gullibility issues aside. Humans are quite willing to die defending their beliefs, but unfortunately, that doesn't make those beliefs true. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Please don't keep arguing that 'they would' or 'they could' - we all know that. Show me that 'they did'. Then, the Arizona Jesuit miners will become like Secretariat, not California Chrome (this is a horse racing analogy relating to results trumping bravado and high hopes).