JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

I would at least feign modesty if recovering much of value. Would like to do more, but next outing will likely be a park. Should be safe. l.o.l.
There has been presented on this thread subjects I was unaware of that suggests more out there than originally imagined from others findings in relics alone. Even two legged ones.
 

OPTO, you posted "I have gotten really good at wasting time typing for nothing."
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In regards to your book I agree, in regards to providing new knowledge type away ,you also gully.

Jose de Manana land
 

Ding dong ring that bell!

Don Jose el procrastinator extraordinario said:
OPTO, you posted "I have gotten really good at wasting time typing for nothing."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to your book I agree, in regards to providing new knowledge type away ,you also gully.

Jose de Manana land
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Opto? No worries on what I have been writing amigo, I am sure it would not interest you; <do you think I will finish my book before you get yours done? :tongue3: Shall we place a bet on it? > as to "new knowledge" is there really any such thing?

For our skeptics;

I think we have presented a fair case that the padres were casting bells at Guevavi and Tumacacori, (along with smelting something at San Xavier del Bac) and I would state that even these copper bells, would be a valuable thing to find today. Copper is not exactly on the level of silver or gold, but certainly valuable, and a bell that could be tied to the missions would have historical value far in excess of the metal content.

As Price Of Copper Soars, Thieves Swipe Church Bells

Vintage church bells are rare and a collector item:
Brosamer's Bells: Used Church Bells for sale - pre-owned antique churchbells

<I did not see copper listed but a bronze church bell starts at $6000 and goes up from there - and how many bells were cast at the missions altogether? Probably more than one I would think, wouldn't you? How common are bells cast in Arizona in the 1700s for sale?>

So even the mundane BELLS, of which none are accounted for, would be a treasure to find, in a real sense of that statement; and where are the bells cast in Pimeria Alta today? Doesn't this qualify as a real, lost Jesuit treasure, even if not worth mega-bazillions? If you will allow that this does amount to a real lost treasure, then we could examine the question of where all that massive silver display seen at Tumacacori is today too? I know that I would be thrilled to find such a bell, might not even be able to part with it for any price; though an extra $6k in my pocket is not something I would turn my nose up at either.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - even you mule-headed types! :tongue3:
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee:
 

Oroblanco said:
... So even the mundane BELLS, of which none are accounted for, would be a treasure to find, in a real sense of that statement; and where are the bells cast in Pimeria Alta today? Doesn't this qualify as a real, lost Jesuit treasure, even if not worth mega-bazillions? ...
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - even you mule-headed types! :tongue3:
Click to expand...

Yes, those bells would be a terrific find for anyone - a true Pimeria Alta Jesuit treasure. Same goes for the chuch decorations. Level-headed targets.
 

HI sailaway, coffee ? 'Prove' is a delicate word. With proof an object would already have been found over the centuries. There comes a time when rumors or second hand stories are just as acceptable since no one has found it with proven data.

Don;t ever get wrapped up in requiring proof of every side story or you will end up exactly where the others have an elusive target 'still' out there' Logic is the basic answer.

I personally interpreted that document and found many mistakes in the official version, 'some critical', I hope my efforts helped Golly a little bit. Like the book, he had to get on me. :laughing7:

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Oro, Springfield, Deducer, Gully. The original alter hand bell of Tayopa is in,was in, the los Angeles area with the decendents of Yeagers family, Was sent there in the 50's with his other persoal effects when he died while working as rhe resident Engr of the Quintera mine.Cyaniding the tailings.

Go get it, will help with your retirement fund

Don Jose de La Mancha.
 

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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Oro, Springfield, Deducer, Gully. The original alter hand bell of Tayopa is in,was in, the los Angeles area with the decendents of Yeagers family, Was sent there in the 50's with his other persoal effects when he died while working as rhe resident Engr of the Quintera mine.Cyaniding the tailings.

Go get it, will help with your retirement fund

Don Jose de La Mancha.
Click to expand...

Too much traffic.
 

Hegel’s Realization of the Spirit in History
Hegel is the first thinker to treat history as a matter of philosophical and theological study. He made a distinction between individual existence and social existence, so that history refers primarily to our social life, not individual, private lives. The spirit moves the individual, but history is primarily society in its temporal process – and Hegel’s basic social unity is the nation/state.
The spirit works through history in bringing together freedom and necessity, subjectivity and objectivity. There is a rational pattern that can be discerned in history, as the spirit continues to move forward toward freedom. The progression is necessary, because development is necessary in all levels. In nature, organic matter develops, as a seed becomes a tree; in human beings, children develop, and by necessity a three year old child cannot think and behave like a thirty year old adult.
In the same manner, the spirit develops through the thoughts and actions of nations and civilizations. The spirit actualizes itself in the self-consciousness of human beings and in their progressive consciousness of freedom. For Hegel, it is a discernible pattern of history that the more ancient civilizations had a more limited concept of freedom, whereas democracy only appears in modern times. He argues that in ancient Oriental civilizations, the general pattern was that only the ruler was free, whereas in the later Greek civilization there was an oligarchy of the few who were free – and finally modern nations have the awareness that all should be free. There were exceptions to the rule, and breaks in the general chronology, but the exceptions only prove the rule.
History is not a mere succession of sheer contingencies – not just one random thing after another. For Hegel, if one looks at the world rationally, the world will look rationally back. There is a development of reason in the pattern, since for Hegel reason is substance and infinite power, the infinite material of all natural and spiritual life and the infinite form which activates this material content.
There are for Hegel three basic levels of the activity of the spirit:
1. First, the spirit becomes conscious and seeks freedom in the individual spirit.
2. It also moves individuals together as it sublates contradictions and seeks freedom in the level of the nation – the nation spirit.
3. Thirdly, the spirit will also move not only through individuals and nations, but also in guiding the totality of world history – the world spirit.
Philosophy of Religion | Luminous Darkness
Click to expand...
Why is it important for you to understand the subject of the Hegelian Dialectic? Because it is the process by which all change is being accomplished in society today.
For some reason the whole issue keeps going back to Germany.

Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method) is a method of argument for resolving disagreement that has been central to European and Indian philosophy since antiquity. The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues. The dialectical method is discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject, who wish to establish the truth of the matter guided by reasoned arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegelian_dialectic#Hegelian_dialectics
 

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Speaking of old mission bells, in Gil Proctor's book, "The Trails of Pete Kitchen", we are told the story of the bell called San Antonio. Gil Proctor bought the bell from an elderly man living in Nogales, Mexico for $100. It was on display at Proctor's Museum for several years. When Gil died, the Proctor family closed the museum and put the historic items in storage. I have not talked to anyone that knows what happened to the bell, the carbine from Custer's last stand, and other interesting artifacts.

According to a diary entry dated October 25, 1848 of Lieutenant Cave J. Couts, he visited Tumacacori while on a scouting trip to Yuma. At the time there was no resident priest at the mission. The priest from San Ignacio was charged with visiting the missions to the North. The priest's narration was saved in the Couts diary. Three of the bells at Tumacacori were cast at the mission, but the fourth bell which was dedicated to San Antonio had been brought to Tumacacori many years earlier from Sinaloa. A casting date on the bell is 1797. From the date on the bell we know that the Franciscans were responsible for cast this bell as well as the other three that were cast at Tumacacori.

During a wedding ceremony at Tumacacori, a storm passed through and the bell tower was struck by lightning. The bell and bell ringer fell through a large hole in the roof. The damage to building was significant, the bell ringer was dead, the bell lay on the floor along with debris from the storm damage. The people of the pueblo met and decided that the mission would be abandoned, and everyone would move to the village of Bac. The furnishings of the church would be taken to the Mission of San Francisco Xavier. The bell was left where it had fallen.

The village of Tumacacori was visited by H.M.T. Powell, and on October 6, 1849 he wrote, "It is a very large establishment and the monks or priests had every accommodation to make life comfortable. In the square tower there were three large bells, and there was one lying inside the church dedicated to Senor San Antonio .......". Another visitor named Hayes described Tumacacori two months later, also commented on the four bells.

The activity of casting bells at Tumacacori helps explain the evidence of smelting on the mission property.
 

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igadbois,

I have a signed copy of Proctor's book. Pick it up and reread it now and again. Fascinating historical account.

Good post,:thumbsup:

Joe Ribaudo
 

Deducer wrote
Not true, Roy. <snip>
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Well between us, we are 'preaching to the choir' for I think we have largely the same conclusions where the Jesuits are concerned. I thought we had a person whom had 'jumped in' to the discussion without bothering to read the 150 + pages of discussion previous, so attempted to sum up the case in one post. A side point here but I have found your posts to be every bit as informative as well, and thank you for the kind words.

To our skeptics - what about the famous silver of San Xavier del Bac? Of course one could make the argument that it was Franciscan and not Jesuit, for it was not mentioned as being seen during the Jesuit period, however not much was mentioned about what was in any of the Jesuit missions during their tenure in Pimeria Alta. We have the statements from father Nentvig and Och that all of the remote and minor visitas were richly ornamented, perhaps in scale to the more magnificent churches, but some of you dismiss those descriptions out of hand.

In favor of the silver at San Xavier del Bac being Jesuit, we can look at the letters of father Segesser; he mentioned being in the silver mountains, and complained at having little in the way of silverware, implying that silver was plentiful enough yet actual useful silver items were still rare. He also complained of the inability to work the mines in safety, which indicates that the mines were being worked when possible. Then there is the slag built into the Franciscan structure seen by visitors today - the fact that it is built into the Franciscan structure, certainly implies that it was available to use when they were building the structure, so probably predates the arrival of the Franciscans.

Also, while the mission was not under Jesuit control when the early American visitors saw the impressive silver on display, the silver was again removed and hidden, but was brought out on the arrival of several Jesuit priests, showing that they had safe-kept the ornaments of the church in the absence of the padres. If the silver had not belonged to the Jesuits in the first place, why should the Pimas have made such a point to trot the valuables out to show to the padres on their arrival?

If the estimates of the people who saw the silver are at all accurate, and I see no reason to dispute that it was, $40,000 circa mid-19th century, today it would be worth nearly twenty times that just for melt value; is not a treasure worth say $750,000, a treasure worth hunting? To say nothing of the silver mine that produced the metal used for these ornaments and altar!

Just trying to point out, that even if we ignore the numerous business concerns and profits from them, and the rest of the mining activities and products thereof, just in San Xavier del Bac, we have a respectable treasure linked to the padres, worth hunting for, just as we have a much smaller value treasure of at least two missions (Guevavi and Tumacacori) in the rather un-exciting bells they produced. I strongly suspect that if you could locate where the bells are hidden, you might well find other "ornaments" of these churches, not to mention any amassed precious metals as well.

Igadbois - great post, yet where are those bells today? :dontknow: Can we conclude that making three bells, also produced some 120 tons of slag?

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Roy,

Igadbois - great post, yet where are those bells today?
dontknow.gif
Can we conclude that making three bells, also produced some 120 tons of slag?

Do you have a source for that figure?

Best to you, Beth.....and the beasties.:laughing7:

Joe
 

sailaway said:
Why is it important for you to understand the subject of the Hegelian Dialectic? Because it is the process by which all change is being accomplished in society today.
For some reason the whole issue keeps going back to Germany.

Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method) is a method of argument for resolving disagreement that has been central to European and Indian philosophy since antiquity. The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues. The dialectical method is discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject, who wish to establish the truth of the matter guided by reasoned arguments.
Dialectic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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We are not having a dialectic here, much less a Hegelian one. Some of us do seek the truth of the question being asked here, some are simply engaging in subterfuge or distortion.

Evidence has been given many times over in various forms, both microcosmically and in macrocosm, that the Jesuits had tremendous motivation, economically, and philosophically to obtain treasure, and did so copiously and very profitably.

There is really no question here.
 

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Gil Proctor had a Molina Derrotero. I had written to him in the early 1970s, as I planned to visit him in Nogales. I was interested in seeing what he had, and if it was an original or a copy. Gil Proctor and friends had chased some of the local treasure stories, and had visited Javelina Canyon. The black CCDTD monument stone located two hundered varas from the mine was there and he photographed it. A drill hole on the back of the stone was pointed at the front of the mine.

Milton F. Rose had a Molina which he had loaned to John D. Mitchell for his 1933 book, and he also owned another interesting document that was signed by the Padres of San Ramon. The PSR document also had a map. Rose's little house in Salome was burglarized shortly after he gave some of his research material to John Lawler. Milton had already started writing a book on the Lost Adams, and Lawler was going to write a series of magazine articles. The PSR document was one of the things taken, and he told me how to recognize it, if I ever saw it.

John Mitchell was captivated by the Molina. He moved to Arivaca and made looking for the Virgen de Guadalupe his top priority. He interviewed many of the locals that lived along the Santa Cruz River, and visited some of the mine sites described in the Molina.

In 1813 an expedition from Mexico City set out to find some of the mines that were operated during the prior century. The primary target was the Old Sopori Mine, the location of which was unknown. Not much information is available on what they found, or the results of their journey. In 1891, a priest from Europe contacted Judge Barnes of Tucson for assistance in finding a small mission building in the mountains West of Tumacacori. A hole was dug in the floor of the building, and some metal boxes were removed which the priest took. It is said that Judge Barnes was given the map, but it is unknown if he made any attempts to go back to the site.

Shortly after WWI, a man from Douglas, AZ contracted with a black army veteran to do some digging at the site of the small building. While at the site the worker became very fearful for his life, and he left after seeing a goat that was watching him. He went crazy, and the site which was now managed by Frank "The Boss" Pinkley, became known as Camp Loco.

In 1932, Laura Pierson Shepley arrived at Camp Loco. She said she was a lawyer, and was funding a dig for treasure. She set up camp inside what was left of the old chapel. At one time she had a dozen workers digging to find treasure. By 1935 she was broke. She then sought funding from investors. In 1936 she married a local by the name of Bob Clark. She had two boys and two girls living at the Camp and was desperate to keep the project going. It is not known if they were her children or his. Things were really falling apart. The two girls became pregnant. While Laura was gone from the Camp, an elderly man that overseeing things died. The young people had to hike out by themselves for help.

By May of 1936, Marvin V. Saylor filed suit against Shepley. He was a major investor and he felt that he had been defrauded. Shepley did not appear at court, and the Sheriff went out to Camp Loco to arrest her. She said she couldn't come out because she was naked. She had a large gun at the entrance to her living space. The Sheriff came in a told her to get dressed, or she would be going to jail in the nude. Laura Shepley was convicted of fraud and spent two years in prison. After prison she returned to Camp Loco. She continued her search for treasure until 1939 when she fell and broke her right arm. She left Camp Loco and moved to California. She never returned. It is unknown where the old document is that she was using as the basis for her search.

There is no doubt that the mine in Javelina Canyon is the San Ramon/Virgen de Guadalupe Mine. When Frank Pinkley was given responsibility for managing the Camp Loco site in 1919, he expressed an opinion that this was an Aztec site at one time. His opinions were based on the presence of unique rock carvings that were found there. During the Spanish period 1650-1850, there has been a tremendous amount of work completed at the site. Many drill holes which were used for pointing rods are found, and the tailing pile that extends to the bottom of Javelina Canyon required a major labor effort over many years. There are foundations of at least eight buildings, a dam for water supply, and other features that support the idea that this site was very important. There are those that suggest that the shaft was not a mine at all, but a storage site for the Pimeria Alta missions.

Gary Don Oliver has done more work at this site than any other person. He has spent over thirty years of his life, and over $100k to solve the Enigma At Tumacacori Arizona (which is the name of the book he wrote). Gary is still convinced that there is something worth finding in the main tunnel. I wish him well!
 

igadbois,

Gary has a good story and I have had his book for some time now. Believe there is also a CD. Personally, I remain unconvinced that there is anything there.

Take care,

Joe
 

lgadbois

Saw you the Gil Proctor's picture with the black stone monument CCDTD ?
 

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