JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Springfield]

The Jesuits were already counterattacking the spread of the protestant denomination in Europe. That was one of their many fronts.

Their foray into the New World (meaning all of the Americas, and not just Mexico) was most likely a comforting image to the church authorities in that while it saw its position weakening in the European court of opinion, it was gaining strength elsewhere, as well as a foothold. And as Roy said, it also didn't hurt that the foray also helped to fill up the war chest for the fight against the spread of protestant reformation and to try to keep the age of enlightenment in check.

The Jesuits, being the geniuses that they were, took perfect advantage of that...

All militant-political bodies seize power by dominating weaker people and controlling their assets, using intimidation in various forms. Wash, rinse, repeat. The SJ were a competent band of 'useful idiots' unleashed during the late Renaissance to help shore up the Big Scam. Yeah, harvesting easy money from the New World would be at the top of their short list of things to do.

 

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[sailaway]

In the words of one member of Cortés's band of conquistadors, the Spanish came to the New World "to serve God, and to get rich as all men want to do." Whether or not Bernal Diaz del Castillo got rich is one thing; serving God was quite another. Spain after 1492 was a Catholic country.
Religion in Spanish Colonization
Spain saw itself as the bulwark of Catholicism and doctrinal purity. Spain carried Catholicism to the New World and to the Philippines, but the Spanish kings insisted on independence from papal "interference" - bishops in the Spanish domains were forbidden to report to the Pope except through the Spanish crown. In the 18th century Spanish rulers drew further from the papacy, banishing the Jesuits from their empire in 1767.
Religion in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The creation of a viceroyalty in the Americas was a result of the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire (1519 to 1521). The lands and societies brought under Spanish control were of unprecedented complexity and wealth, which presented both an incredible opportunity and a threat to the Crown of Castile. The societies could provide the conquistadors, especially Hernán Cortés, a base from which to become autonomous, or even independent, of the Crown. As a result the Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain, Charles V created the Council of the Indies in 1524.
A few years later the first mainland Audiencia was created in 1527 to take over the administration of New Spain from Hernán Cortés. An earlier Audiencia had been established in Santo Domingo in 1526 to deal with the Caribbean settlements. The Audiencia, housed in the Casa Reales in Santo Domingo, was charged with encouraging further exploration and settlements under its own authority. Management by the Audiencia, which was expected to make executive decisions as a body, proved unwieldy. Therefore in 1535, King Charles V named Antonio de Mendoza as the first Viceroy of New Spain.
Sephardic Jews of America's Southwest have just begun to surface after 500 years of obscurity. This Diaspora, during which these particular Jews were totally stripped of their identity, has been longer than the 240 years of exile in Egypt or the 70 years in Babylon. These are remnants of the Spanish and the Mexican Inquisitions of which so many people are unaware.
Twenty-four years after Columbus' initial "discovery," the Franciscan missionaries, who were vested with Spanish Inquisition powers, reported the increasing numbers and the increasing influence in Mexico by Sephardic Jews who were called la gente prohibida (people prohibited from entering the New World). Questions such as who led them here? How did they ever get this far west into the Americas and how they wound up as far north as Texas and New Mexico by the 14th Century? More importantly, why and how did the "Holy Inquisition" in Spain ever wind up with a High Tribunal in Mexico City? And, is there a possibility that the early Catholic Missions were somehow instructed to keep as eye on these Western Jews of Spain and the Iberian Peninsula?
Hernan Cortez led the procession of Spanish explorers and Conquistadors into the New World. It is documented that some of these explorers, soldiers and early settlers were, in fact, Sephardic Jews. Some of these had faithfully served the Spanish Crown -- men such as Captain Alberto del Canto, Diego de Montemayor, Gaspar Castano de Sosa and many others. Among these early explorer-Conquistadors of the 16th Century were two who made very significant advances into Northern Mexico and the Southwest of the United States. They were Juan de Onate and Don Luis de Carvajal y de la Cueva.
On May 31, 1579, the Spanish Crown issued a colonization charter to Don Luis de Carvajal y de la Cueva. He was appointed the First Governor-Captain General over an enormous piece of land known as El Nuevo Reyno de Leon (New Kingdom of Leon). Because of the unusual set of circumstances that arose in the process of these pioneering efforts, Don Luis's Reyno eventually encompassed a large section of the Vice Regency of New Spain and the existing kingdoms of Nueva Galicia and Nueva Vizcaya. For all intents and purposes this section of land covered most of Northern Mexico and much of what is today New Mexico and south-central Texas, including the Alamo City of San Antonio.
The irony lies in the identity of the passengers on Don Luis' ship, La Santa Catalina that landed at Tampico, Mexico in 1580. The fact is that all the passengers, who had been recruited from across Spain and the Iberian Peninsula, were members of his and his wife's family, and they were all Sephardic Jews. In fact, Don Luis' successor was his own nephew, Luis de Carvajal el Mozo ("the younger"). He too was a Sephardic Jew who, rather than deny his faith, was burned at the stake, together with his mother and three sisters, in Mexico City in 1589. Don Luis died in prison for the same reason around February 13, 1591.
The Sephardic Awakening in America

saturday, january 05, 2013
KING JUAN CARLOS OF SPAIN-TITLE KING OF JERUSALEM
EU DICTATOR (WORLD LEADER)
The King's title in full: His Majesty Juan Carlos the First, By the Grace of God,the King of Spain, King of Castile, of León, of Aragon, of the Two Sicilies, of Jerusalem, of Navarre, of Granada, of Seville, of Toledo, of Valencia, of Galicia, of Sardinia, of Córdoba, of Corsica, of Murcia, of Jaén, of the Algarves, of Algeciras, of Gibraltar, of the Canary Islands, of the East and West Indies, of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea; Archduke of Austria; Duke of Burgundy, of Brabant, of Milan, of Athens and Neopatria; Count of Habsburg, of Flanders, of Tyrol, of Roussillon, and of Barcelona; Lord of Biscay and of Molina de Aragón; Captain General and Supreme Commander of the Royal Armed Forces; Sovereign Grand Master of the Order of the Golden Fleece and of the orders awarded by the Spanish state.
http://israel7777777.blogspot.com/2013/01/king-juan-carlos-of-spain-title-king-of.html
Sephardic Jews eager to apply for Spanish citizenship Feb 17, 2014
The Spanish government recently announced it would grant citizenship to the descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain five centuries ago. On Feb. 7, Spanish Minister of Justice Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon announced a bill that would allow Sephardic Jews dual citizenships. Spanish Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 by an edict of the Catholic monarchs, Isabella and Ferdinand, during the height of the Spanish Inquisition, an effort intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in the kingdom.
The bill fast-tracks the process and provides six different ways to prove Sephardic origins, such as “having a Sephardic last name,” “evidence of belonging to the Sephardic community,” or speaking Ladino — a form of medieval Spanish spoken by Sephardic Jews.
“Why is Spain, one of the most restrictive countries in terms of immigration and asylum, now offering citizenship to a potential large number of people?” asked de la Obra.
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/17/sephardic-jews-eager-apply-spanish-citizenship/
http://www.pineradelolmo.com/en/spanish-citizenship-sephardic-jews/
The basic accusation of the Inquisition was that Jews who converted to Christianity were still secretly Jewish. In 14th century Barcelona, for example, the whole Jewish community was murdered by a rioting mob. First given shelter by some Christians, these Jews were pressured to convert. “Those of them who refused to accept baptism were immediately slain, and their corpses, stretched in the streets and the squares, offered a horrendous spectacle.”
The Origins of the Inquisition by Professor B. Netanyahu
Many of those who converted did so only outwardly, continuing to practice Judaism in secret. In due time, the Christians caught on to these phony conversions and decided to root out the heretics.
THE SPANISH INQUISITION began officially by papal bull issued by Pope Sixtus IV on November 1, 1478. The very first Inquisition actually took place in 1233 under orders from Pope Gregory IX to combat a group of French-Christian heretics called “Albigenses.”
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/the_inquisition/

 

[Springfield]

The Pre-Columbian Jewish presence in the New World is a very interesting subject indeed.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You are looking at this with tunnel vision. The small picture (so to speak) of Pimeria Alta. While I know the title of the thread does not exclude the rest of the world, the subject has mostly been Pimeria Alta. That is so mainly because it is my main area of interest, and I am not planning on going to Japan or China to hunt Jesuit Treasures.

That said, you have to take in the broad context of the Order of Jesus when you are trying to piece together something that locally has been erased (somewhat) from the record books (I.E. Jesuit Wealth). What was their modus oparandi? See, even though they were a worldwide organization, they all took the same vows, and operated (at higher levels) with the same goals in mind. At lower levels, they sought to evangelize the world. Bring the heathen masses to Mother Church, so they can know the word of God and be saved. This would also make them productive citizens of the different countries where they evangelized. At higher levels, their position and authority brought the Order great wealth (not individually) and many exceptions that would not have been given to any other Order of Catholics. They were also the confessors to most of the Royal Families of Europe. This made them some envious enemies both in and out of the Church. Again, at higher levels, their agreements with Nations and Monarchs were only as good as they decided them to be. Their true loyalties lie in their Vows of Obedience to Christ, The Church, and The Pope. THAT Trinity greatly overshadowed any Earthly bonds they had.

Deducer, what you say is (IMO) exactly true. They were formed by a military man. They are structured as a military organization. They have proven themselves through history (Gunpowder Plot 1604, Attempted assassination of Portugal's Joseph I in 1758, Spanish Riots 1676) to be part and party to many intrigues. From what I know of those intrigues, they were basically trying to remove leaders that held beliefs that would take power from the Church, and gain more influence and wealth for both the Order and the Church.

Mike

 

[Kauziamos]

In regards to PALO FIERO:
PALO can=
stick
club
pole
wood
staff
spar
cock
pin
wicket
spear

FIERO can=
fierce
strong
wild
hard
iron (fierro)
The choice of combo is yours to make. I like hard spear.
Palo Fiero is the same meaning of the name Gerard, and the many variants of it. IMO, you guys are looking for a large boner shaped monument. I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. But seriously, what else erupts? I'd go with volcano over ironwood personally. But, as a couple of you know, I have the most tender of feet in regards to all of this, so the most I can really add to this conversation is fresh eyes, a working brain (sometimes), and a light heart.
Curious side note: according to google translate palo fiero means "attached to it" in Latin.

 

[sailaway]

The Pre-Columbian Jewish presence in the New World is a very interesting subject indeed.

I first approached this subject in my thread post #8 and #9 in the Survey of the Mina Virgon.
Here I will re post the #8:

Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish: Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe),
also known as the Virgin of Guadalupe (Spanish: Virgen de Guadalupe).

Official Catholic accounts state that on the morning of December 9, 1531, Juan Diego saw an apparition of a young girl on a hill. Speaking to him in Nahuatl, the girl asked that a church be built at that site in her honor. Diego told his story to the Spanish Archbishop of Mexico City, Fray Juan de Zumárraga, who instructed him to return to the hill, and ask the "lady" for a miraculous sign to prove her identity. The Virgin told Juan Diego to gather flowers from the top of the hill. Although December was very late in the growing season for flowers to bloom, Juan Diego found Castilian roses, not native to Mexico, on the normally barren hilltop. The Virgin arranged these in his peasant cloak or tilma. When Juan Diego opened his cloak before Bishop Zumárraga on December 12, the flowers fell to the floor, and on the fabric was the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe. the earliest account of the apparition, the Nican Mopohua, written in the Nahuatl language around 1556, the Virgin Mary tells Juan Bernardino, the uncle of Juan Diego, that the image left on the tilma is to be known by the name "the Perfect Virgin, Holy Mary of Guadalupe."
In his 1675 work Felicidad de Mexico, Becerra Tanco claimed that Juan Bernardino and Juan Diego would not have been able to understand the name Guadalupe because the "d" and "g" sounds do not exist in Nahuatl. He proposed two Nahuatl alternative names that sound similar to "Guadalupe", Tecuatlanopeuh [tekʷat͡ɬaˈnopeʍ], "she whose origins were in the rocky summit", and Tecuantlaxopeuh [tekʷant͡ɬaˈʃopeʍ], "she who banishes those who devoured us." Ondina and Justo Gonzalez suggest that the name is a Spanish version of the Nahuatl term, Coātlaxopeuh [koaːt͡ɬaˈʃopeʍ], meaning “the one who crushes the serpent,” and that it may be referring to the feathered serpent Quetzalcoatl. In addition, Mary was portrayed in European art as crushing the serpent of the Garden of Eden.
The first extended account of the image and apparitions was reported in Imagen de la Virgen Maria, Madre de Dios de Guadalupe, published in 1648 by Miguel Sánchez, a diocesan priest of Mexico City. Luis Lasso de la Vega wrote a 36-page tract in Nahuatl language, Huei tlamahuiçoltica ("The Great Event"), which was published in 1649 and is similar to Sánchez's narrative. This tract contains Nican mopohua ("Here it is recounted"), a text about the Virgin which contains the story of the apparitions and the supernatural origin of the image. The sections: Nican motecpana ("Here is an ordered account"), describes 14 miracles connected with Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Nican tlantica ("Here ends"), gives an account of the Virgin in New Spain
In 1666 the Church, with the intention of establishing a feast day in the name of Juan Diego, began gathering information from people who reported having known him. In 1723 a formal investigation into his life was ordered. In 1995, Father Xavier Escalada, a Jesuit writing an encyclopedia of the Guadalupan legend, produced a deer-skin codex, (Codex Escalada), which illustrated an account of the vision and the life and death of Juan Diego. the document was dated 1548, within the lifetime of those who had known Juan Diego. It bore the signatures of two respected 16th-century scholar-priests, Antonio Valeriano and Bernardino de Sahagún.
Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe is recognized as a symbol of Catholic Mexicans. Miguel Sánchez, the author of the first Spanish language account of the vision, identified Guadalupe as Revelation's Woman of the Apocalypse. In 1999, the Church officially proclaimed her the Patroness of the Americas, the Empress of Latin America, and the Protectress of Unborn Children. Hernán Cortés, the Conquistador who overthrew the Aztec empire in 1521, was a native of Extremadura, home to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

In 1929 and 1951 photographers found a figure reflected in the Virgin's eyes; upon inspection they said that the reflection was tripled in what is called the Purkinje effect, commonly found in human eyes. An ophthalmologist, Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, later enlarged an image of the Virgin's eyes by 2500x and claimed to have found not only the aforementioned single figure, but images of all the witnesses present when the tilma was first revealed before Zumárraga in 1531, plus a small family group of mother, father, and a group of children, in the center of the Virgin's eyes, fourteen people in all.
Our Lady of Guadalupe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This site is named after the "MOTHER OF GOD", is it the real place of the vision? Is this where the sword and spear of Tubal Cain was placed?, waiting for the Anti-Christ to retrieve them?

THE "SPEAR OF DESTINY" THE MYSTERIOUS ANCIENT SPEAR

The very Spear used to kill Abel was kept between the Temple and the Altar. Only priests and their fellow Levites were allowed in this space, and then only during the performance of their official duties. The only weapon known to have been left in this precise location was the ritual Spear that served as the symbol of authority of the Captain of the Temple, who was second only to the High Priest himself.
Where is the spear of destiny? Here is a clue.
"Joseph arranged the escape of the family and friends of Jesus. They became a tiny band of exiles, who cast away in an oar-less, rudder-less boat, with little provision, and were left to the mercy of the tempests. In this vessel was some of Jesus? The most beloved: His uncle and life-long guardian, the well-reputed Joseph of Arimathea, the-Nobilis Decurio, honorable merchant for Jerusalem and Rome. There was Jesus? Treasured mother, Mary, his beloved ladies, Mary Magdalene, and the Bethany sisters, Mary and Martha, and Salome. There was the Apostle Phillip. And there were others: fourteen in all. When this little vessel had miraculously been carried across the Great Sea, it ground ashore on the coasts of Gaul"
Notice the 14 people are the same as the number of people in the Virgan de Guadalupe's eyes?

Hitler was searching for the Spear of Destiny but never found it.



He had found out that the one he had was a fake.

William Henry

 

[sailaway]

In regards to PALO FIERO:
PALO can=
stick
club
pole
wood
staff
spar
cock
pin
wicket
spear

FIERO can=
fierce
strong
wild
hard
iron (fierro)
The choice of combo is yours to make. I like hard spear.
Palo Fiero is the same meaning of the name Gerard, and the many variants of it. IMO, you guys are looking for a large boner shaped monument. I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. But seriously, what else erupts? I'd go with volcano over ironwood personally. But, as a couple of you know, I have the most tender of feet in regards to all of this, so the most I can really add to this conversation is fresh eyes, a working brain (sometimes), and a light heart.
Curious side note: according to google translate palo fiero means "attached to it" in Latin.

Could the Sword of Tubal Cain be the Palo Fiero?

TUBAL CAIN
by
Charles Mackay

Old Tubal Cain was a man of might
In the days when the Earth was young;
By the fierce red light of his furnace bright
The strokes of his hammer rung;
And he lifted high his brawny hand
On the iron glowing clear,
Till the sparks rushed out in scarlet showers
And he fashioned the sword and spear.
And he sang "Hurra for the handiwork!
Hurra for the spear and sword!
Hurra for the hand that shall wield them well,
For he shall be king and lord!"

To Tubal Cain came many a one,
As he wrought by his roaring fire;
And each one prayed for a strong steel blade
As the crown of his desire.
And he made them weapons sharp and strong,
Till they shouted loud for glee,
And gave him gifts of pearl and gold,
And spoils of the forest free;
And they said, "Hurra for Tubal Cain,
Who hath given us strength anew!
Hurra for the smith, hurra for the fire,
And hurra for the metal true!"

But a sudden change came o'er his heart
Ere the setting of the sun,
And Tubal Cain was filled with pain for
The Evil he had done;
He saw that men, with rage and hate,
Made war upon their kind,
That the land was red with the blood they shed,
In their lust for carnage blind.
And he said, "Alas! that ever I made,
Or the skill of mine should plan,
The spear and the sword for men whose joy
Is to slay their fellow-man."

And for many a day old Tubal Cain
Sat brooding o'er his woe;
And his hand forebore to smite the ore,
And his furnace smoldered low.
But he rose at last with a cheerful face,
And a bright courageous eye,
And bared his strong right hand for work
While the quick flames mounted high!
And he sang, "Hurra for my handicraft!"
And the red sparks lit the air;
"Not alone for the blade was the bright steel made!"
And he fashioned the first ploughshare.

And men, taught wisdom from the past,
In friendship joined their hands;
Hung the sword in the hall, the spear on the wall,
And ploughed the willing lands;
And sang, "Hurra for Tubal Cain!
Our staunch good friend is he;
And for the ploughshare and the plough
To him our praise shall be;
But while oppression lifts its head,
Or a tyrant would be lord
Though we may thank him for the plough
We'll not forget the sword!"

http://tubulcain420.blogspot.com/2006/10/tubal-cain.html
According to Masonic Teaching Tubal Cain was the first Master Mason Metal Worker. He Prayed to God because he wanted a metal that would not rust or need sharpening. A meteorite was sent to earth and Tubal Cain made a sword and a spear or arrow of of it. The Military is now working on metals that are self healing. (remember Terminator that was a liquid?) it is now not so far fetched. This "Space Rock" that was made into these weapons supposedly remembers "GOD" and will do the will of the bearer of the weapon. It was lifted high and the walls of Jericho fell! It was used to kill the baby boys when Jesus was born. It is the only weapon that has spilled "Gods" blood when it pierced the side of Jesus. In Revelations the Anti- Christ will have it in his hands.
The Arrow is reported to be like a Boomerang and will always come back to the owner of the Sword.
Incidentally the spot on that map that says that is where the "Grave of Reavis" is or close to it.
I asked along time ago about this and got no replies. The above post has what the spear looks like.
more on this here: http://clanoftubalcain.com/spear.html

 

[Kauziamos]

Damn. Now wouldn't that be something. Thanks a lot. You just made tonight's reading list get about ten times longer. But seriously, I can't wait to get into survey of the Mina Virgon. Ball lightning and earthquakes?! That's what I get down on! An aside: I once tried to tell my dad about ball lightning. He said, "son, you can't believe everything you read on the internet."

Could the Sword of Tubal Cain be the Palo Fiero?

 

[Kauziamos]

Do I remember the Terminator and his liquid metal alloy?! "Come with me if you want to live." I'm getting schooled by the minute here...if you're right, it kind of sounds like Reavis could have been a watcher...this all kind of reminds me of Sword In the Stone. Hmmmm. Disney? Hmmmm. Good lord, let's keep it out of the hands of the anti-Christ Mkay?

Could the Sword of Tubal Cain be the Palo Fiero?
Tubal Cain: TUBAL CAIN
According to Masonic Teaching Tubal Cain was the first Master Mason Metal Worker. He Prayed to God because he wanted a metal that would not rust or need sharpening. A meteorite was sent to earth and Tubal Cain made a sword and a spear or arrow of of it. The Military is now working on metals that are self healing. (remember Terminator that was a liquid?) it is now not so far fetched. This "Space Rock" that was made into these weapons supposedly remembers "GOD" and will do the will of the bearer of the weapon. It was lifted high and the walls of Jericho fell! It was used to kill the baby boys when Jesus was born. It is the only weapon that has spilled "Gods" blood when it pierced the side of Jesus. In Revelations the Anti- Christ will have it in his hands.
The Arrow is reported to be like a Boomerang and will always come back to the owner of the Sword.
Incidentally the spot on that map that says that is where the "Grave of Reavis" is or close to it.
I asked along time ago about this and got no replies. The above post has what the spear looks like.
more on this here: Tubal Cain and the Dolorous Spear

 

[deducer]

The SJ were a competent band of 'useful idiots' unleashed during the late Renaissance to help shore up the Big Scam.

I think that to refer to the Jesuits as "useful idiots" is misleading, and is to disregard how complex they were.

While the organization was militant in nature, with a paternalist agenda, one must also note the irony manifest in the rigorous ratio studorium which all Jesuits must pass through before taking final vows. From the Catholic Encylopedia comes this excellent description of the Jesuit system of education:

What was the intellectual scope of the Ratio Studiorum? It cannot be better defined than in the words of the general of the Society, Father Martin, who said in 1892: "The characteristics of the Ratio Studiorum are not to be sought in the subject matter, nor in the order and succession in which the different branches are taught, but rather in what may be called the "form", or the spirit of the system. This form, or spirit, consists chiefly in the training of the mind [efformatio ingenii], which is the object, and in the various exercises, which are the means of attaining this object." This training or formation of the mind means the gradual and harmonious development of the various powers or faculties of the soul—of memory, imagination, intellect, and will; it is what we now call a general and liberal education.

Wasn't this in direct contradiction to the Jesuit mission to aggressively reaffirm the doctrine of medieval papacy in the face of the Protestant onslaught, to the point of committing regicide?

At the same time they were trying to stem the tide of enlightenment, their curriculum espoused much of the values celebrated by the enlightenment era!

One has to ask what the heck is going on here.

 

[sailaway]

Elisha M Reavis 1826 - 1897. In 1874 he started a farm and apple orchard in the Superstitions a few miles north. The apple trees remain and attract deer, bears, and hikers every fall.
See: http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/1eavis.htm

Photos and GPS coordinates for Elisha Reavis Grave in the Superstition Mountain Wilderness

 

[Oroblanco]

Just a side note here but funneling the treasures of the Americas to Spain which then helped fund the many wars Spain was involved in, was a matter of fact for centuries; that the Jesuits would be massing treasure for the spiritual war is right in keeping with what Spain, Portugal,France etc were doing. I believe that all of the Orders were doing much the same thing, to a greater or lesser extent of course.

Not sure how to link the hermit Reavis whom was murdered BTW, to this topic. Perhaps that would be better in the LDM forum?
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

I think that to refer to the Jesuits as "useful idiots" is misleading, and is to disregard how complex they were. ...

... At the same time they were trying to stem the tide of enlightenment, their curriculum espoused much of the values celebrated by the enlightenment era!

One has to ask what the heck is going on here.

I use the term to refer to advocates who eagerly support goals they don't fully understand. There is no question that the SJ are capable people to the max, but you ask an important question. Do they operate solely at the pope's bidding - loyal soldiers fighting for the so-called good of man? Or are they sociopathic free agents with their own loyalties, cynically using the church facade to establish their authority in order to exploit man? In the first case, they could be termed the church's 'useful idiots', I guess. In the second case ... well, ... ?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola coffee"|? Palo Fiero also means a tree Side issue our mangos are ripe. delicious, want some with youp coffee ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sailaway]

Could the Kamo Mioya Shrine in Japan have been the military training camp for the Jesuits? Japan was used to the Monks being militaristic. They had a large group of samurai and monks to learn from.
Jesuit Reports - SamuraiWiki

A history of Japan from 1549 (the arrival of Francis Xavier) by the Jesuit Luis Frois. He used the Jesuit letters and reports, many of which were later printed in Cartas, as major sources. In 1895 one copy of the 1549-78 section was discovered in the Ajuda Library in Lisbon, the original was destroyed in a fire in 1835. other sections were gradually discovered after that in various places in Portugal and France.The first section to be discovered was published in a German translation in 1926.

They Came to Japan
An Anthology of European Reports on Japan, 1543-1640
compiled and annotated by Michael Cooper, Berkely
University of California Press, 1965.

Father Joao Tiago
The Jesuit Samurai
Alternate World: the Japans, 1565
Nagasaki, Jesuit trading post http://lamathrath.net/2013/09/07/father-jaoa-tiago-jesuit-samurai/

Histoire Ecclesiastique Des Isles Et Royaumes Du Japon
by Pere François Solier of the Society of Jesus in 1627

The Jesuits gained allies relatively quickly among the daimyô and other prominent figures in Kyushu, including winning a number of converts among the Kyushu elite. Christianity suited samurai lords well, as missionaries emphasized sacrificing oneself for the Lord – and with the daimyô himself as divinely mandated, loyalty to God became intertwined with loyalty to one’s earthly lord.
A seminario, or Jesuit school for Japanese youths, was established at some point, and from the 1580s until 1614 a painting workshop operated on the grounds, training Japanese in European painting techniques, and producing artworks for the Christian churches and missions in Japan. In addition, a chapel was built in Kyoto in 1561, and came to be called by the Japanese Nanban-ji (lit. "Southern Barbarians Temple").
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Society_of_Jesus

http://www.jesuit.ie/articles/18-history/71-paul-miki-japanese-samurai-and-christian-martyr

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/samurais-cause-for-beatification-forwarded-to-rome/

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
Essential thinking for reading Catholics.
http://jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/

 

[markmar]

The region of Opatas mine with the shape like is drawing in the Molina ( Tumacacori ) map .

 

[deducer]

I use the term to refer to advocates who eagerly support goals they don't fully understand.

IMO, there is absolutely no question that they knew exactly what they were doing, and exploited the circumstances which gave rise to their existence, to further their causes. They knew very well how their foray into the New World would not only exponentially strengthen their organization, but allow them to leverage for both crown and church support back home. From a completely separate and unrelated source, The First European Description of Japan, 1585 by Fr. Luis Frois, we have essentially the same thesis, that the Jesuits exploited in the New World primarily to achieve political favoritism back in Europe, by wielding considerable economical power and establishing themselves as indispensable intermediaries between the crown and the indigenous people.

There is no question that the SJ are capable people to the max, but you ask an important question. Do they operate solely at the pope's bidding - loyal soldiers fighting for the so-called good of man? Or are they sociopathic free agents with their own loyalties, cynically using the church facade to establish their authority in order to exploit man?

I think this is a very critical question that must be answered in order to understand just who they were, and the answer to this question is something that I am still working on.

We do know that the Jesuits had their enemies in the church, both formally and informally, and even in the papacy itself, where they were very nearly done in by Pope Clement VIX's Dominus ac Redemptor .

So while they professed to take the pope as an absolute ruler, I do not think this was quite true.

I am of the position that they answered only to the company itself. And even then, they took liberties within the company, and I think this was inevitable, a byproduct of their great stress on intellectual development via the ratio studiorum, which's history and evolution still remains unclear (at least to me), other than it's inception in 1599 (the Jesuits did not even envision themselves getting so involved in education prior to that time).

IMO, they may have come to see the ratio studiorum as necessary for missionary activities or propagation of their company, as missionaries had to be able to think and function for themselves, to be self-sufficient, and efficient in very remote places. I welcome further input and opinion on why and how advanced education came to be so important as far as the Jesuits were concerned.

And I think that this became a double-edged sword (or dagger?), because when you place priority on advanced education and intellectual development, you are also placing emphasis on the ability to think for oneself, i.e., individualism.

So the way I currently see it, there was at once, this unwavering, militant loyalty to the company of Jesus, and at the same time a strong sense of individualism, of self-sufficiency. A strange combination, one must admit.

 

[Springfield]

... So while they professed to take the pope as an absolute ruler, I do not think this was quite true.

I am of the position that they answered only to the company itself...

It seems clear that the SJ's padres, the foot soldiers - like all good soldiers - followed orders unquestionably. The padres were superbly trained to do the Order's bidding, and presumably performed up to expectations.

But what about the army's generals - the planners, the commanders? Were they solely managers of Vatican doctrine? If not, were they powerful dons in a clandestine organized crime ring? Or were they major players in a covert alliance with other powerful and capable world players, whose motivation, structure and reach is unknown? Learning about the top Jesuits should be enlightening, but if there's more to the story than meets the eye, then these guys undoubtedly brushed their tracks, leaving an awfully cold trail.

 

[deducer]

But what about the army's generals - the planners, the commanders? Were they solely managers of Vatican doctrine? If not, were they powerful dons in a clandestine organized crime ring? Or were they major players in a covert alliance with other powerful and capable world players, whose motivation, structure and reach is unknown? Learning about the top Jesuits should be enlightening, but if there's more to the story than meets the eye, then these guys undoubtedly brushed their tracks, leaving an awfully cold trail.

Those are good questions for which I currently have no answer. I must admit that my interest in the Jesuits do not really extend outside of what they did in New Spain.

As far as the "army's generals," the Father Provincal Francisco Ceballos (Zeballos) was the highest ranking Jesuit in New Spain.

Yet, while we have quite a number of letters from missionaries addressed to Fr. Ceballos, there is pretty much no preserved letters written by him addressed to anyone. I stand to be corrected if anyone can show me otherwise.

Very little is known about him, even less than what there is known about Fr. Carlos de Roxas who is my number one suspect at this point. Incidentally, according to a source I have, Fr. Roxas and Fr. Ceballos frequently corresponded.

 

[John_Arizona]

Here we go,

This is once again quoted from Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts..." These were set down by Father Hernando de Cabrero, Visitor on 20 September 1662:

"#17: Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about THINGS THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES."

It does not take a church insider or even a conspiratorialist to understand what this means! "WRITE YOUR LETTERS ABOUT STUFF WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE DOING IN CODE, BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE THAT WHEN WE DON'T WE GET IN TROUBLE!"

So...........we now know that whenever a Jesuit wrote a letter about something they didn't want to get in trouble for, or something they didn't want anybody else to read, THEY WROTE THE LETTER IN CODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I repeated that same statement in a few ways just to make sure the point completely sinks in!

Is there any wonder why we can find no outright statements in any Church/Mission Records or letters about ANYTHING they were not allowed to do? Not to any thinking person!

Best-Mike

with all this knowledge, I would like to see the Jesuit Treasures you have found so far, to back up all your claims of what you have to say.