JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

zoom in on the arrow and it is a cave. I did not make it up that high though.here is what the arrow points at. second is across from the arrow.Budding heart is on the top left of second pic.
below the large arrow is a smaller arrow pointing across the canyon.

do you have any information on this arrow sign? Strange thing is they all seem to be signs that are on the Lue Map.

 

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[markmar]

sailaway

The mark and place in DeGrazia painting map is this , from a NW view :



The same place from the west . In the red rectangle we can see the " Chest stone map " , and in the blue the numbers from the " DON " stone trail .



Good luck .

 

[sailaway]

sailaway

The mark and place in DeGrazia painting map is this , from a NW view :

View attachment 1005421

The same place from the west . In the red rectangle we can see the " Chest stone map " , and in the blue the numbers from the " DON " stone trail .

View attachment 1005422

Good luck .

Who published the Information you claim to be where the map points? What make you think even DeGrazia got the information he was reading right? He may have had information that we are not aware of. The area that is shown in your photos do not match where I was. I have concentrated all my efforts to one area, that being Angel Basin. The arrow I found was on the lower slopes below the "Needle in the Haystack" and points at that Needle and across the Basin. The Arrow is where the 2 is in the numbers from the trail stones. If one looks at The DeGazia map you will see that Fish Creek ("Pescado Agua" on the map) is north of the Needle. If one looks at Weavers Needle Fish creek is EAST of that Needle, Yet if you look at THE NEEDLE IN THE HAYSTACK it is SOUTH of Fish Creek, exactly like the map is drawn. Then turn around and look southeast and you will see the Palo Fierro or Volcanic Dome. Here is a pic of Iron Mountain showing the dome and the "Marks on the hillside placed by chance". The Mina Virgon is exactly where it says MINA in the Painting. So I believe he was onto the right trail only may have had the wrong location?

I looked closer at the DeGazia map and it was not done by him but was done in Kamo Mioya Shrine,Japan in 1?79. Could this have been painted by one of the Jesuits? Artist was "p. feryin"? at the two Main Halls (Honden) at the Kamo Mioya Shrine and the Main Hall and Provisional Hall (Gonden)
Kamo Shrine is a general term for an important Shinto sanctuary complex on both banks of the Kamo River in northeast Kyoto. It is centered on two shrines. an upper and a lower, lie in a corner of the old capital which was known as the "devil's gate" due to traditional geomancy beliefs that the north-east corner brought misfortune. Because the Kamo River runs from the north-east direction into the city, the two shrines along the river were intended to prevent demons from entering the city.
In early 1551 with the first ever European to set foot in Kyoto the intrepid missionary Francis Xavier. To his dismay he found the city in ruins following a long period of civil strife and left after just ten days. But the Jesuits were determined to make a base in the capital, and eight years later came Father Vilela. Through dogged perseverance he built up a following.

In 1576, with the support of volunteers, the Jesuits were able to turn their humble altar into a proper church. Portuguese fashion was all the rage at the time, and some of the aristocracy had taken to wearing pantaloons and crosses. As a result the new church created a buzz of excitement and among the visitors was the country’s unifier, Nobunaga. Two of his sons took an interest in the religion, and one was later baptised.
It all came to a sorry end in 1587. In an angry outburst against the Jesuits’ military ties Hideyoshi issued an anti-Christian edict, and in the aftermath the church was demolished. Amazingly the Portuguese-made bell was somehow preserved and can still be seen at Shunko-in, a subtemple of the Zen monastery of Myoshin-ji. It bears the date 1577 and has an inscription in Latin.
http://readingjapanesehistory.blogspot.com/

The discovery of the Nestorian Stele
The Neopian Stele (also known as the Nestorian Stone, Nestorian Monument, or Nestorian Tablet) is a Tang Chinese stele erected in January 7, 781 at the imperial capital city of Chang’an,and the content was composed by the Nestorian monk, Jingjing, that documents 150 years of history of early Christianity in China. The heading on the stone, which is in Chinese, means Memorial of the Propagation in China of the Luminous Religion from Daqin. Daqin being the Chinese language term for the Roman Empire in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, and in later eras also used to refer to the Syriac Christian churches.The stele was unearthed in the late Ming Dynasty beside Chongren Temple in 1623. According to the account by the Jesuit Alvaro Semedo, the workers who found the stele immediately reported the find to the governor, who soon visited the monument, and had it installed on a pedestal, under a protective roof, requesting the nearby Buddhist monastery to care for it. The newly discovered stele attracted attention of local intellectuals. It was Zhang Gengyou who first identified the text as Christian in content. Zhang, who had been aware of Christianity through Matteo Ricci, and who himself may have been Christian, sent a copy of the stele’s Chinese text to his Christian friend, Leon Li Zhizao in Hangzhou, who in his turn published the text and told about it to the locally based Jesuits.
Early Jesuits attempted to claim that the stele was erected by a historical community of Roman Catholics in China and called Nestorianism a heresy and claimed that it was Catholics who first brought Christianity to China, but later historians and writers admitted that it was indeed Nestorian, not Catholic.
Contents can be read here: http://japanesemythology.wordpress.com/a-translation-of-the-nestorian-stele/

Japanese artists had sometimes been set to copying religious art brought over by the missionaries, and many of the resulting works were said to be extremely well executed, well enough to be sent with the embassy of the Kyushu daimyos for presentation to the Spanish court. Since the majority appear to have been made in Kyoto or Sakai, it is likely that it was the artists of the Kano and other important schools who received the commissions. These works, however, were somehow unsatisfying as works of church art, and their numbers were limited. Finally the missionaries in Japan petitioned the Jesuit Curia in Rome to provide them with religious art, but since it was seven or eight years from the dispatch of this order until delivery, the immediate problem remained unalleviated.
The requests to Rome for religious pictures during this period were repeated several times, and the need in Japan for 50,000 works, given in the Society’s report of 1584, can have been no exaggeration.
Jesuit Art in Japan http://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/2007/May-Sep/Japanese_Christian_Art.htm

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/158922625/part_V

 

[markmar]

sailaway

As i wrote , when i have posted the DeGrazia painting map , the painting is a copy from a jesuit map , like the " Chest stone map " . I believe DeGrazia had some informations which little people are aware of .
You are looking for the " needle in the haystack " in the Angel Basin . The DeGrazia painting is a map with approximation and is a view to the Four Peaks from the Superstition Mountain peak .
You can believe what else you want . Try to adapt your research region to the map , not the map to your research region .
I believe I have given enough arguments for the painting map .

Good luck again

 

[Oroblanco]

Sailaway - interesting link to Japan; we have tried to show that the Jesuit Order was and is a world-wide organization, with ties between continents, they were not operating in isolation from the rest of their Order. One whole group of missions in Sonora was dedicated to providing income for their missions in Japan in fact, and the Order owned a bunch of properties under title of the religious fund for the Baja California missions too (which fund included MINES). Curious that a map supposed to be for the Jesuits, was made in Japan.

The Jesuit Missions The Rectorship of Santos Martires del Japon
<Nentvig's description of the missions dedicated to support the Japanese mission effort>

Oroblanco

 

[FEMF]

Sailaway - interesting link to Japan; we have tried to show that the Jesuit Order was and is a world-wide organization, with ties between continents, they were not operating in isolation from the rest of their Order. One whole group of missions in Sonora was dedicated to providing income for their missions in Japan in fact, and the Order owned a bunch of properties under title of the religious fund for the Baja California missions too (which fund included MINES). Curious that a map supposed to be for the Jesuits, was made in Japan.

The Jesuit Missions The Rectorship of Santos Martires del Japon
<Nentvig's description of the missions dedicated to support the Japanese mission effort>

Oroblanco

Hello Roy
Do still have the web page location that dealt with that Southern Senator that was making that deal with Napoleon the thirds half brother?
I've lost it somehow over the years. Thanks Roy.
FEMF

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Roy
Do still have the web page location that dealt with that Southern Senator that was making that deal with Napoleon the thirds half brother?
I've lost it somehow over the years. Thanks Roy.
FEMF

I don't know if it is online or not, but I had posted the article a while ago:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/tayopa/36414-el-naranjal-4.html#post837785

I will see if I can find it (paper copy) later this evening, may have been in a book. I should have added the source when I posted it, would have made it easier now! (See how a guy can still be learning new things even at my age? haha) I hope all is well with you amigo, looking forward to finally meeting you this fall.

 

[Kauziamos]

Hmm it was posted --> Que nos Que hay algo escondido a lla derecha

~~~~~~~~~~~

we know that there is something hidden on the right.

JOse

I like that I just learned that escondido means hidden, but even cooler, if you break it down all etymologically like, it's es con dido, it's with a trick.

 

[deducer]

Who published the Information you claim to be where the map points? What make you think even DeGrazia got the information he was reading right? He may have had information that we are not aware of. The area that is shown in your photos do not match where I was. I have concentrated all my efforts to one area, that being Angel Basin. The arrow I found was on the lower slopes below the "Needle in the Haystack" and points at that Needle and across the Basin. The Arrow is where the 2 is in the numbers from the trail stones. If one looks at The DeGazia map you will see that Fish Creek ("Pescado Agua" on the map) is north of the Needle. If one looks at Weavers Needle Fish creek is EAST of that Needle, Yet if you look at THE NEEDLE IN THE HAYSTACK it is SOUTH of Fish Creek, exactly like the map is drawn. Then turn around and look southeast and you will see the Palo Fierro or Volcanic Dome. Here is a pic of Iron Mountain showing the dome and the "Marks on the hillside placed by chance". The Mina Virgon is exactly where it says MINA in the Painting. So I believe he was onto the right trail only may have had the wrong location?
<snip>

Yikes.. for a minute I thought Roy had written this post. The only thing missing was a "thank you in advance."

 

[sailaway]

I like that I just learned that escondido means hidden, but even cooler, if you break it down all etymologically like, it's es con dido, it's with a trick.

When I posted this it was about the writing on the edge my version of the Molina Map. In my Thread I talked about the trick that is a puzzle still and am working on the clues. The last trip there I stood where the Mina Virgon de Guadelupe Mine is and was confused that it had all changed. There has been 44 earth tremors since the last time I was there 9 months before. There is a significant change in the mountain top.several areas have dropped. here is a new view that still does not show all the changes. but look behind the Indian and horse and you will see it has collapsed in. Second photo taken right on the Mina Virgon.

 

[markmar]

sailaway

I want to make a correction in your previous post . You wrote : " Then turn around and look southeast and you will see the Palo Fierro or Volcanic Dome. Here is a pic of Iron Mountain showing the dome ... "
" PALO FIERO " in the map means " ironwood " and not Volcanic Dome , IMO . This region close to Weavers Needle reminds me a LDM clue which says " ... and densenly wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak "

Have a nice day

 

[sailaway]

Markmar. here is the oaks, pecan, cottonwoods and other thickets between Iron Mountain and angel Basin that are so thick you have a hard time beating your way through it any where off the trail. I have Large scratches from making my way to the mine off the trail. This picture is from the west base of Iron Mountain looking north west.

If your looking for desert Ironwood, It is everywhere out there so is not really a clue.but look close at the Mexican hat or Sombrero.

 

[FEMF]

I don't know if it is online or not, but I had posted the article a while ago:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/tayopa/36414-el-naranjal-4.html#post837785

I will see if I can find it (paper copy) later this evening, may have been in a book. I should have added the source when I posted it, would have made it easier now! (See how a guy can still be learning new things even at my age? haha) I hope all is well with you amigo, looking forward to finally meeting you this fall.

Hello Roy
Thank you again, I believe you found the story on an internet site, That address is what I lost changing computers, I guess! I'm looking foreword to meeting you and your Mrs.
this fall Roy. FEMF

 

[deducer]

Technically, you're right - the pueblo was a fringe possibility for the Jesuits. Because of its remoteness and the Franciscans' difficulties there, I suspect the Jesuits simply said, "No thanks."

Well that's the question we have to ask here: what were they really here for?

We must look at the larger framework of the question.

IMHO you can't answer the question of Jesuit treasure unless you answer the Jesuit question first, and by that I mean to truly understand the Jesuits. And to do that one must understand the company and the circumstances which gave rise to it in the first place. The founding of the Jesuits occurred, not by happenstance, at a time when the papacy faced the dual threat of the enlightenment era, in which individualism was starting to be celebrated and valued, and the splintering of the church into the birth of the protestant denomination which denied the universal authority of the pope, and furthermore denied the RC doctrine of transubstantiation. The papacy's answer to this was the counterreformation born out of the Council of Trent which was of course spearheaded by the Jesuits. I feel that under no other circumstances would the Jesuits have been allowed to be so militant. They sought to revive medieval papalism by amongst other things, undertaking aggressive missionary activity, but more importantly taking the pope as their absolute ruler to distinguish themselves from, for example. the Protestant reformation which they sought to stem, all over Europe.

The introduction to Perez de Ribas's Historia is well worth reading on its own, and there are some points which should give rise to serious thoughts:



Being one good example and I will subsequently post more excerpts, specifically in regard to the Indians.

But the fundamental motivation of the Jesuits was that they perceived their church (or the papacy) as being under attack, or at least its infallibility being questioned, and it was with this mindset that they came to the New World.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Roy
Thank you again, I believe you found the story on an internet site, That address is what I lost changing computers, I guess! I'm looking foreword to meeting you and your Mrs.
this fall Roy. FEMF

You are right, unfortunately the old link doesn't seem to work for me.

 

[cactusjumper]

"But the fundamental motivation of the Jesuits was that they perceived their church (or the papacy) as being under attack, or at least its infallibility being questioned, and it was with this mindset that they came to the New World."


Can't help but wonder how coming to the New World would make things better for them. Was their mindset something along these lines, Let us go into the wildest and farthest reaches of Mexico, convert as many savages as we can and stop the attack on the Papacy?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

"But the fundamental motivation of the Jesuits was that they perceived their church (or the papacy) as being under attack, or at least its infallibility being questioned, and it was with this mindset that they came to the New World."


Can't help but wonder how coming to the New World would make things better for them. Was their mindset something along these lines, Let us go into the wildest and farthest reaches of Mexico, convert as many savages as we can and stop the attack on the Papacy?

Joe Ribaudo

I would think more in line with adding reinforcements, to aid in the struggle against Protestantism. There is a theory that the Jesuits were trying to do what the Templars may have done in Switzerland, and the Teutons definitely did in East Prussia, to form a state ruled by their own Order. The closest they came looks to be their experiment in Paraguay/Uruguay.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

I would think more in line with adding reinforcements, to aid in the struggle against Protestantism. There is a theory that the Jesuits were trying to do what the Templars may have done in Switzerland, and the Teutons definitely did in East Prussia, to form a state ruled by their own Order. The closest they came looks to be their experiment in Paraguay/Uruguay.
Roy

Roy,

I'm unsure how they would add reinforcements to the fight in Europe with converts from the New World?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

By weight of numbers for the "spiritual" end of it for one. Remember the padres in that day believed that a certain number of prayers would win favors or wipe away sins etc so sheer numbers praying were thought to be effective. Also for the many tiny rivulets that form mighty rivers, you know the 'war chest' for any war involves a lot of money.

 

[deducer]

Can't help but wonder how coming to the New World would make things better for them. Was their mindset something along these lines, Let us go into the wildest and farthest reaches of Mexico, convert as many savages as we can and stop the attack on the Papacy?

The Jesuits were already counterattacking the spread of the protestant denomination in Europe. That was one of their many fronts.

Their foray into the New World (meaning all of the Americas, and not just Mexico) was most likely a comforting image to the church authorities in that while it saw its position weakening in the European court of opinion, it was gaining strength elsewhere, as well as a foothold. And as Roy said, it also didn't hurt that the foray also helped to fill up the war chest for the fight against the spread of protestant reformation and to try to keep the age of enlightenment in check.

The Jesuits, being the geniuses that they were, took perfect advantage of that:



So now, we can clearly see that the Jesuits had immense motivation for obtaining treasure.