JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

No, I don't interpret this the same way you do. This precept was from 1747. You can look all the way back into the late 1500s in the Spanish Mining Laws that state Religiosos are not allowed to mine. The Jesuits, being the smartest guys in the room usually, can and will find the loopholes in just about any rule. Take card playing for instance. This is a perfect example for you to see how rules started out very basic and vague, and as the Fathers exploited loopholes, those rules became more specific and exacting:








Now, when I quote the next version of this precept, you should be able to see why they had to make the revision and be MUCH more specific:



HAHAHA See what I mean. The Jesuit Fathers are forbidden by a general rule from playing cards. They must have kept doing it, because it was then elevated from a Rule to a Precept. So then, the Fathers stopped PLAYING and started sitting behind the players and betting on the games without actually playing cards. They found the loop hole! Then, the Jesuit Heierarchy had to be more specific to stop all forms of gambling and card-playing.


Same thing can be said for mining. What started out as a rule, which the Fathers found the loophole in, became a Precept. When the loopholes were found and exploited in that Precept, the Precept became more specific. When it became too specific, they generalized it, but added the last part to make absolutely certain EVERY Jesuit Priest understood that even showing a knowledge of the mining arts was forbidden!

Mike

Mike,

It should be obvious to everyone by now, including you, that the Jesuits of yesterday, as well as today, were just men. They obeyed the rules and Precepts when it was convenient and ignored them when it was not. Same as they do today.
Nothing has changed.

They were far from the King and the Pope. The officials in the New World were not always just around the corner. On the other hand prospectors, miners and ranchers/farmers were all over the place. Any of them would have liked nothing better than to report any misdeeds to the authorities.....and did. Often, if nothing was going on, they made it up.

While loved by many, the Jesuits had more than their share of haters. Nothing has changed.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[deducer]

Any of them would have liked nothing better than to report any misdeeds to the authorities.....and did. Often, if nothing was going on, they made it up.

Can you prove this?

 

[cactusjumper]

The frequent charges against the Jesuits are well known to those who have read their history. Try reading that history and you will have all the proof you need.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

On this statement, Joe and I are in almost complete agreement. HAHAHA I just don't know that anything was actually made up about them. Joe will say that all the stuff about mining was made up by miners wanting the Jesuits control over the Indians curbed, so they could be made to work in the seculars' mines, or that other Religious Orders and Politicians were so very jealous of all the freedoms and powers given to the Jesuits that they made up all kinds of things to get the Jesuits in trouble. To an extent, I agree. A prime example of this is the Marquis de Pombal and the Bishop Palafox. They both hated the Jesuits with a passion. Pombal had advised King Charles III on many occasions that the Jesuits had been plotting against him. Speaking ill of the King ever since he gained the throne. For whatever reasons, the King did nothing adverse to the Jesuits even after getting this advice.......................... until the riots of 1766. Several Jesuits had been arrested paying rioters to "keep the party going" so to speak. How do we know this? The King did not go into any detail regarding his suppression of the Order. The Order of Arrest was pretty darn vague:

Having accepted the opinion of the members of my Royal Council in Extraordinary, which met on the 29th of last January for consultation concerning past occurrences and concerning matters which persons of the highest character have reported to me; moved by very grave causes relative to the obligation under which I find myself placed of maintaining my people in subordination, tranquility, and justice, and other urgent, just, and necessary reasons, which I reserve in my royal mind; making use of the supreme economical authority, which the Almighty has placed in my hands for the protection of my vassals, and the respect of my crown; I have ordered that the Jesuits be expelled from all my dominions of Spain, the Indies, and Philippine Islands, and other adjacent regions, priests as well as coadjutors or lay-brothers, who may have made the first profession, and the novices, who may wish to follow them; and that all the properties of the Society in my dominions be taken; and for the uniform execution of this decree throughout these dominions I give you full and exclusive authority; and that you may form the necessary instructions and orders, according to your best judgment, and what you may think the most effective, expeditious, and peaceful method for carrying out these instructions and orders. And I wish that not only the magistrates and superior tribunals of these kingdoms may execute your mandates punctually, but that the same understanding may be entertained concerning those which you may direct to the viceroys, presidents, audiencias, governors, corregidores, alcaldes mayores, and any other magistrates of those kingdoms and provinces; and that in response to their respective requests, all troops, militia or civilian, shall render the necessary assistance, without any delay or evasion, under pain of the delinquent's falling under my royal indignation; and I charge the provincials, presidents, rectors, and other superiors of the Society of Jesus to accept these provisions punctually, and in carrying them out the Jesuits shall be treated with the greatest regard, attention, honesty, and assistance, so that in every respect the action taken may be in conformity with my sovereign intentions. You will keep this in mind for its exact fulfillment, as I very confidently expect from your zeal, activity, and love of my royal service; and to this end you will give the necessary orders and instructions, accompanying them with copies of my royal decree, which being signed by you shall be given the same faith and credit as the original.

Surprisingly, there is no specificity regarding exactly what the Jesuits did to get suppressed as a society! When he wrote a letter to the Pope explaining his actions, it STILL was not specific at all!

Most Holy Father, your Holiness knows well that the first duty of a Sovereign is to guard the security and tranquility of his state and the well-being and peace of his subjects. In the fulfilment of this duty I have found myself in the urgent necessity of promptly expelling from my kingdom and its dominions the Jesuits who have been residents within them, and of sending them to the States of the Church, where they may be under the wise and holy direction of your Holiness, the worthy Father and Teacher of all the Faithful. I should be actingwithout due regard for the Apostolic Camara if I were to oblige it to burden itself with the maintenance of those Jesuits who were my born subjects, but I have made provision so that each may have a sufficient subsistence as long as he lives. I trust that your Holiness may take this my determination simply for what it is, namely, an indespensable administrative decree, made after previous inquiry and deep reflection; and that whilst doing me this justice you will not hesitate to send me, as I supplicate you, your Holy and Apostolic Blessing, both on this and all others of my actions which are similarly directed to the greater honour and glory of God.

It comes later, through a more circuitous route:

The Marquis D'Ossun was a French Ambassador to the Court of Spain. After getting a private audience with Charles III, he wrote this letter to the French Court.

He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be predjudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, openeed his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters).............

So, even though Pombal hated the Jesuits, it still seems they were guilty of fomenting the 1766 riots! What Charles was telling D'Ossun about "reviling his government" is that Charles III was a fan of Church Reformation. He was part of the "Enlightened Movement" that sought to do away with the Inquisitions.The Jesuits believed that the "Enlightened Movement" was a watered down version of Catholicism. They didn't like it nor anybody that espoused it. For this reason, from the day Charles III took the throne of Spain, the Jesuits trash talked him behind his back. They said he was not a true Catholic King and did not deserve the Crown.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

What I wrote was:

"On the other hand prospectors, miners and ranchers/farmers were all over the place. Any of them would have liked nothing better than to report any misdeeds to the authorities.....and did. Often, if nothing was going on, they made it up."

I had hoped my statement would have been taken as only relating to the New World. While I'm sure some of those charges must have been upheld, I can't recall a single case off hand. If no proof could be brought to the authorities and courts of the time, I assume most of the charges were made up.

If I still believed in massive Jesuit buried treasures, I would probably be coming down on the other side of this issue. With all that gold and silver, they could have bought their way out of trouble. Graft being what it was, and still is, in Mexico it would have been SOP.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

The frequent charges against the Jesuits are well known to those who have read their history. Try reading that history and you will have all the proof you need.

Joe Ribaudo

Deducer,

On this statement, Joe and I are in almost complete agreement. HAHAHA I just don't know that anything was actually made up about them. Joe will say that all the stuff about mining was made up by miners wanting the Jesuits control over the Indians curbed, so they could be made to work in the seculars' mines, or that other Religious Orders and Politicians were so very jealous of all the freedoms and powers given to the Jesuits that they made up all kinds of things to get the Jesuits in trouble.

I agree that much was made up about them in the bigger picture, for example, in Europe where their intrigue into politics was on an unprecedented scale.

But I can't recall coming across a specific example occurring in the New World, especially in regard to anything being made up as far as what they might have hoarded, such as gold or silver.

If a specific example (or a few) could be found, it would serve as a logical precursor to the expulsion and the subsequent search for treasure by the Spanish.

If not, we would have to assume the Spanish were motivated by something else.

 

[deducer]

With all that gold and silver, they could have bought their way out of trouble. Graft being what it was, and still is, in Mexico it would have been SOP.

With the power they had, be it the monopoly they had on the frontier economy, or their relationship with the Indians, I don't think they had to, or even bothered to try to buy their way out of trouble.

For example, they didn't try to bribe General Manje to recant his report, they simply put the Governor in a position where he had to have Manje arrested and taken to Parral.

 

[gollum]

With the power they had, be it the monopoly they had on the frontier economy, or their relationship with the Indians, I don't think they had to, or even bothered to try to buy their way out of trouble.

For example, they didn't try to bribe General Manje to recant his report, they simply put the Governor in a position where he had to have Manje arrested and taken to Parral.

HAHAHA Not just taken to Parral, but forced to ride a burro (or donkey). They would not even give him the dignity of riding his own horse! And remember, this was a very good friend of Father Kino, that accompanied him on most of his jornadas!

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Deducer, Gollum: this was between the higher echelons, the Mission priest was exspendible. They were shooting for far higher stakes,


don Jose de la Mancha


















.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

The Jesuit Priests were/are more than "just men" as you put it. That is akin to dismissing a case of Police Brutality by saying "I know he is a cop, but he is still just a man." NO, he is not just a man. He has had special training on how to how to resolve most types of situations without using excessive force. Because of their training and responsibility I put Police on a pedestal. That way, when they do something that dishonors their badges, I hold them MORE accountable than a regular guy that does the same thing. The argument that Jesuit Priests were just men doesn't hold water for many reasons. It took an average of about 25 years for a Jesuit Priest to go from Initiate to taking his final vow. TWENTY-FIVE YEARS! If you spent twenty-five years learning a job that there is only ONE company that hires for, would you do ANYTHING to risk losing that job? They are the representatives of God on Earth! All their training enables them to set an example for others to follow. Twenty-five years is a looong time! During that time, they are constantly evaluated. If they don't have the intellectual ability or mental acuity to be able to operate effectively in remote parts of the world all alone, they are NOT allowed to take that last vow. They are counselled that maybe they should look elsewhere in the Order for their place. A coadjutor possibly. Becoming a Jesuit Priest is not for the mentally incompetent or weak of heart. They are not "just men."

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

In the final analysis they were just men, exceptional men, but just men. If that were not so, they would not have been involved in mining or know anything about it......at all. You can't have it both ways.......well, maybe YOU can.

I'm well aware of the training they went through. It took real mental dedication. Who knows what twisted results came out the other end. There was, after all, the Inquisition. That had to be a hell of a pill to swallow, even in those days. We are talking TORTURE here, not just simple execution.

Our values had no relation to theirs, whatsoever. If they did something wrong, they were seldom de-frocked, just transferred. Pretty much the same as today.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

In the final analysis they were just men, exceptional men, but just men. If that were not so, they would not have been involved in mining or know anything about it......at all. You can't have it both ways.......well, maybe YOU can.

I'm well aware of the training they went through. It took real mental dedication. Who knows what twisted results came out the other end. There was, after all, the Inquisition. That had to be a hell of a pill to swallow, even in those days. We are talking TORTURE here, not just simple execution.

Our values had no relation to theirs, whatsoever. If they did something wrong, they were seldom de-frocked, just transferred. Pretty much the same as today.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Exceptional men indeed. You know by now that I am not a Jesuit Hater. HAHAHA I just want the truth. I firmly believe the Order was heavily involved in mining. That said, I pretty much have things boiled down to just a couple of possibilities:

1. The Church believed that they operated under principles of a higher power than the throne of any country (especially Spain). The money derived from mining would be better spent by the Order/Church than the King. The King would just use it to go to war with the French, English, or Portuguese. The Order/Church would use that wealth to help spread the word of God to the heathen masses around the world. So.......the Order/Church Higher-Ups would say to the King "Not to worry your highness. We will keep our Priests from mining." Then go to their Order and say "NO MINING! wink, wink, nod, elbow, giggle", and some Priests work the mines anyway.

2. The Order/Church would tell the King "Not to worry your highness. We will keep our Priests from mining." Then every time an Indian Confessed to a Priest about the location of a silver or gold ledge, the word gets passed up, until someone brings in a Temporal Coadjutor, and gives him the location of that rich ledge. He then files a claim on the spot. Works the mine, sending the profits to the Church.

I believe it is either one of the two, or some combination thereof. I just believe that the evidence is overwhelming that the Order was involved in mining, refining, smelting, casting, etc.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

I guess I will waste a few more minutes of your time, and mine, not to try to convince our skeptics however just that I would like a few answers to some questions.

Cactusjumper wrote

Mike,
I have no problem with conjecture......it's all we really have, after so much non-specific evidence.

The slag built into the very walls of the missions in Arizona, the string of silver mines in Arizona, the impressive treasures found in Brazil and Spain, are "non-specific evidence"? Would you also class the various statements cited from father Nentvig, Och, Segesser et al, also as "non-specific"?

Cactusjumper also wrote

As Paul stated, the Jesuits were the most highly educated men in the New World. Beyond that, mining was one of the things, I believe, that was taught by the Jesuits.

I have seen this stated and repeated, without challenge. Considering that a good number of Spanish nobility, as well as the various other Orders were also highly educated, on what do you base this statement? Can you show that no other men in the New World were as highly, or even more educated than the Jesuits?

Cactusjumper also wrote

I don't believe either side will see the conclusion of this debate.

Not when one side dismisses virtually any evidence presented, arbitrarily, with such unfounded and wholesale conclusions like "it was all made up". Really the main question of this thread has been whether Jesuit treasures are real or not; evidence has been presented that the Jesuit Order was wealthy in the extreme, certainly the wealthiest of all the Catholic Orders, and owned a number of mines besides a wide array of other business ventures even including slavery, which was of course acceptable at the time, yet when they were expelled, very little of their wealth was discovered in the Americas. Father Och's account of the expulsion and search, while a great read, is only his own view and spin on the events he was closest to, which would have been in the thriving capital of Mexico city not on the wild frontiers, so is only a part of the picture, and a biased one at that. Not the whole picture by a long shot.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Mike, <snip>
They were far from the King and the Pope. The officials in the New World were not always just around the corner. On the other hand prospectors, miners and ranchers/farmers were all over the place. Any of them would have liked nothing better than to report any misdeeds to the authorities.....and did. Often, if nothing was going on, they made it up.

Now you have made a positive statement, that these nebulous un-named prospectors, miners, ranchers, farmers, MADE UP accusations to fling at the Jesuits. Please provide SOME kind of proof to support this contention, thanks in advance. And NO, a Jesuit source is not going to be acceptable, since we have already posted reams of evidence pointing to the Jesuits amassing wealth and thus had implicit motives for being un-trustworthy on this account.

Cactusjumper also wrote

While loved by many, the Jesuits had more than their share of haters. Nothing has changed.

Ah, those evil Jesuit-HATERS again. Anyone that raises objection to their practices becomes a "Jesuit HATER" so can be readily dismissed as a biased opponent, implying unreasonable prejudices on their part. Who and whom, exactly, are these "Jesuit haters" you are and have been referring to, specifically?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Mike,

What I wrote was:

"On the other hand prospectors, miners and ranchers/farmers were all over the place. Any of them would have liked nothing better than to report any misdeeds to the authorities.....and did. Often, if nothing was going on, they made it up."

I had hoped my statement would have been taken as only relating to the New World. While I'm sure some of those charges must have been upheld, I can't recall a single case off hand. If no proof could be brought to the authorities and courts of the time, I assume most of the charges were made up.

I still do not see how or why the New World, is so disconnected from the global operations of the Jesuits; it was not a separate planet, neither was it a separate Order, all were interconnected and that almost intimately. One whole set of missions in Sonora existed solely to provide income to support their operations (planned or otherwise) in Japan; the Jesuit missions in Baja and planned expansions into northern California, were to support the operations in the Philippines. It is not logical to try to view their operations in any single region, as if it were a wholly separate entity. Spanish laws were largely the same throughout their empire too.

Next, you "ASSUME" that the charges were, MADE UP. Is that supposed to be a convincing counter-argument?

Cactusjumper also wrote

If I still believed in massive Jesuit buried treasures, I would probably be coming down on the other side of this issue. With all that gold and silver, they could have bought their way out of trouble. Graft being what it was, and still is, in Mexico it would have been SOP.

Perhaps they COULD have bought their way out of trouble, but this would entail spending some of that wealth which the Jesuits should not admit to having, and had shown a great reticence at parting with as happened in France when the courts there ruled they had to pay the debts incurred by members of their Order in their trans-Atlantic trade. Not without a terrific legal fight however on their part. It is pure speculation about whether they could or could not have bribed their way out of this trouble, assuming that those in power would be corrupt enough to go along with it, and that is far from a certainty. Considering that the Jesuits had been implicated in the riots against the King in Spain, anyone whom would accept a bribe no matter how fat, would then be in very real danger from the king of Spain as a possible accomplice with the Jesuits in their plots against the monarchy.

By the way, did anyone catch the mention of the PLOT in the King's expulsion order? Could this be a direct, if vague, reference to the Jesuit plot to betray Spain's colonies in America, which impelled the King to act rapidly, which he also mentioned? Perhaps, and this is almost pure speculation, the king of Spain had some information as to the timeline of this proposed betrayal?

I look forward to your answers, thank you in advance. I hope all is well with you folks and look forward to seeing you again.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

As I have stated before, I would like to focus on the Jesuit of Mexico. You are throwing everything you have ever heard or read against the wall hoping that I will waste hours of time looking for the answers. My friend, it ain't gonna happen.

Did I make the statement that "it was all made up", in the non-specific manner you have charged me with?

Could you please provide proof that there were not Jesuit haters in that era? What about the miners, ranchers and others who I claim were making charges against the Jesuit Order. Can you prove that was not the case?

Please prove that there were Spaniards in Mexico with the same caliber/time of training as the Jesuits.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

As I have stated before, I would like to focus on the Jesuit of Mexico. You are throwing everything you have ever heard or read against the wall hoping that I will waste hours of time looking for the answers. My friend, it ain't gonna happen.

"Throwing everything you have ever heard or read against the wall"? Wow you are way off base there amigo, I have not posted the HALF of it. If you are referring to the evidence from around the world, it is all concerning the JESUITS, and shows patterns of behavior including sneaking back into countries they have been thrown out of, a point they are proud of today concerning Japan for instance. It is you that wishes to limit it always to Mexico, and northern Mexico at that, as if that area were totally separated from the rest of the Jesuit Order or from the Spanish colonies. As far as I understand it, the thread owner (Mike) has never limited the discussion to Mexico.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Did I make the statement that "it was all made up", in the non-specific manner you have charged me with?

You have here compounded two different statements into a rather absurd accusation you are trying to put into my mouth. You have however, repeatedly over the years, dismissed a number of evidences as "made up" including very recently,and SEPARATELY, you summed up the evidence posted thus far as "non-specific" which I tried to point out, has been quite specific on some points. So do you consider those evidences mentioned in my previous post, to be non-specific or not?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Could you please provide proof that there were not Jesuit haters in that era? What about the miners, ranchers and others who I claim were making charges against the Jesuit Order. Can you prove that was not the case?

You here demand that I prove a negative, something that has been accused of me several times; remember it was you that stated there were "plenty" of Jesuit haters, "always" so I merely asked you to provide some SPECIFICS, just as you like for things like mining. So I wait for some specifics about just who or whom are these "haters" you refer to, whom are "making up" accusations against the Jesuits? Can you name some of them?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Please prove that there were Spaniards in Mexico with the same caliber/time of training as the Jesuits.

I remind you that it was you whom stated the Jesuits were the "best educated" men in the "New World"; I asked YOU to provide something to support that contention, which now you refuse to do. I would point out that MANY other men in the New World were educated men, even Hernan Cortez, whom was active in Mexico - here is an extract

Hernán Cortés is described as a pale, sickly child by his biographer, chaplain, and friend Francisco López de Gómara. At the age of 14, Cortés was sent to study Latin under an uncle-in-law in Salamanca.[3]

After two years, Cortés, tired of schooling, returned home to Medellín, much to the irritation of his parents, who had hoped to see him equipped for a profitable legal career. However, those two years at Salamanca, plus his long period of training and experience as a notary, first in Seville and later in Hispaniola, would give him a close acquaintance with the legal codes of Castile that helped him to justify his unauthorized conquest of Mexico.[4]

<from the Wiki article on him>

We could list others, as Cortez predates the Jesuits, like Sebastião José de Carvalho e Melo, 1st Marquis of Pombal, or for that matter since you made it the New World, Thomas Jefferson!

Jefferson's Formal Education « Thomas Jefferson?s Monticello
I would say that Jefferson's education would equal that of most Jesuits. An example of a priest NOT a Jesuit with an extensive education would be father Junipero Serra.

As to the Jesuits being the "smartest guys in the room" stereotype, one might wonder why then a Jesuit would be brewing up rat turd TEA to treat illnesses?

I await your answers, thank you in advance.
Roy

 

[UncleMatt]

I noticed in the expulsion order that Gollum posted it stated others besides the priests should be expelled along with them, including all coadjutors. Forgive me if I have overlooked it in this short and concise thread, but I am curious if there is any record of what happened to the people who were not Jesuit priests that were included in the expulsion order? Point me to posts, or help me fill in the blanks on this please.

 

[Oroblanco]

UncleMatt - there is very little, almost no information on the Lay Brothers, Coadjutors or other Jesuits whom were non-priests; our mutual amigo Infosponge has a complete list of them but I don't know of any other info concerning them. It is not even a certainty that all were rounded up with the padres and/or expelled with the rest.

These 'brothers' are just one of the "holes" in our information mass today, like the temporal records of the missions. Of all the hundreds or thousands of documents from the missions history, not ONE temporal record has been found. Except what we read of earlier treasure hunters, whom removed those most interesting, and most likely to prove the point on this debate, temporal documents. There is an inventory done by the Franciscans, AFTER the Jesuits were gone, and they found a lot of stuff that they knew had been at various missions, missing. But of the Jesuit inventory or book-keeping, not so much as a herd count or how many bushels of corn in the warehouse is among the holdings of the Mission 2000 database today. Very few probates of Wills either, which is another set of documents that could have very incriminating evidence.

 

[cactusjumper]

UncleMatt - there is very little, almost no information on the Lay Brothers, Coadjutors or other Jesuits whom were non-priests; our mutual amigo Infosponge has a complete list of them but I don't know of any other info concerning them. It is not even a certainty that all were rounded up with the padres and/or expelled with the rest.

These 'brothers' are just one of the "holes" in our information mass today, like the temporal records of the missions. Of all the hundreds or thousands of documents from the missions history, not ONE temporal record has been found. Except what we read of earlier treasure hunters, whom removed those most interesting, and most likely to prove the point on this debate, temporal documents. There is an inventory done by the Franciscans, AFTER the Jesuits were gone, and they found a lot of stuff that they knew had been at various missions, missing. But of the Jesuit inventory or book-keeping, not so much as a herd count or how many bushels of corn in the warehouse is among the holdings of the Mission 2000 database today. Very few probates of Wills either, which is another set of documents that could have very incriminating evidence.

Roy,

With all due respect, I believe you are wrong on the parts I have underlined above. For some of the information you seek, I would suggest you read "Wandering Peoples" by Cynthia Radding. While the information may not be available in the "Mission 2000 database", it is available elsewhere.

I happen to have an extra copy of Cynthia's book and would be more than happy to send it to you. She provides her source for the information, and that will give you a direction if you want to pursue it further. One of her source is, Archivo General de Mitra(Hermosillo).

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Please let the other posters comment on this post......first:

You should keep in mind that rules do not describe history. They are guidelines of policy and conduct. At one and the same time they denote probable conformity and possible disregard. But in any case ......rules had to be reckoned with as they affected life on the mission frontier.

First I would like to read what others think of those comments, and then your comments.

Thanks Mike,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

With all due respect, I believe you are wrong on the parts I have underlined above. For some of the information you seek, I would suggest you read "Wandering Peoples" by Cynthia Radding. While the information may not be available in the "Mission 2000 database", it is available elsewhere.

I happen to have an extra copy of Cynthia's book and would be more than happy to send it to you. She provides her source for the information, and that will give you a direction if you want to pursue it further. One of her source is, Archivo General de Mitra(Hermosillo).

Take care,

Joe

I presume you own a copy of "Wandering Peoples" Joe, why not post some examples of temporal records? Perhaps it would bolster your case?