JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Mike - then what about the incident when two Jesuit padres returned to San Xavier del Bac? The Indians themselves, went to bring out the hidden silver ornaments - which implies that it was them that hid them. Also, while the Jesuits may well have had an inkling that trouble was brewing for them, the expulsion may well have caught them flat footed; there was no opportunity to go back and hide anything. So I have to respectfully disagree, while it is possible that some treasure(s) may have been hidden well before the expulsion, I believe it was done by the Indians themselves in most cases and after the padres were gone - but before the Franciscans arrived. Especially for the mines.

Hmm having said that, if the Molina document is genuine, this particular set of caches would be a case where it was hidden by the padres themselves, and long before any kind of expulsion or suppression; perhaps with an eye to financing future betrayal plots?

Poncho - you are most welcome, I hope that was of some help to you.
Roy

 

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[Springfield]

... there is good reason to see powerful agencies attempting to hold the lands/areas where treasures are suspected to be hidden, but on the other hand in many cases these agencies probably do not know exactly where the treasures are hidden either...

Obama designates Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks National Monument - Las Cruces Sun-News

 

[somehiker]

http://www.nmwild.org/nmwa/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Organ-Mountains-Desert-Peaks-proposal-map.pdf

 

[Springfield]

http://www.nmwild.org/nmwa/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Organ-Mountains-Desert-Peaks-proposal-map.pdf

Yeah, it's not just the big Organ Mountains east of town - originally Sierra de la Solidad (not to be confused with Noss's Solidad Peak ... hmmm) - rife with the La Rue legends, but also the Robledos and Uvas mountains west of the Rio Grande - home of not on!y the dinosaur tracks, but also the many alleged Phoenician-era petroglyphs, whose locations are closely guarded. To be fair to the premise, much of the Organs has been off-limits to the nosey for years, due to the presence of White Sands military base.

 

[Cubfan64]

Yeah, it's not just the big Organ Mountains east of town - originally Sierra de la Solidad (not to be confused with Noss's Solidad Peak ... hmmm) - rife with the La Rue legends, but also the Robledos and Uvas mountains west of the Rio Grande - home of not on!y the dinosaur tracks, but also the many alleged Phoenician-era petroglyphs, whose locations are closely guarded. To be fair to the premise, much of the Organs has been off-limits to the nosey for years, due to the presence of White Sands military base.

I'm certain that the drug cartels and human smugglers will respect the new boundaries.

 

[Springfield]

I'm certain that the drug cartels and human smugglers will respect the new boundaries.

Yeah, a lotta folks opposed this Monument designation, not the least of whom were the local law enforcement folks, who now will not have jurisdiction within the half-million acres. One man's 'jurisdiction' is another man's 'protection', if ya know what I mean.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Cubber mi campadre: Cafe? You are correct,, Since the Border Patrol will have very limited physical presence it will be a secure entry and exit for the criminal element.. Too much $$ . Next we will see the "Plata o ploma" Silver or lead doctrine moving in. Accept a bribe or you, or one of your family will be shot.

Jose the one eyed Jack de la Mancha

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I think you missed a big part of my post. Read Father Och's Journal. When the Spanish arrested the Jesuits, they searched EVERYTHING the Order owned. If there would have been anything there, they would have recorded and taken it AT THAT TIME! There would have been nothing left for the Indians to hide.

Mike

 

[Goldmine]

The Organ Mountains Desert Peaks National Monument will have no affect on Customs and Border Patrol operation within the monument and along it's border.
Things will remain the same and patrols will go on with no reductions.
Does anyone truly think just because a section of the border has been named a National Monument the US Customs and Border Patrol will stop enforcing the area ? Seriously ? SERIOUSLY DO YOU ? If you do I have to wonder about your powers of reasoning and problem solving abilities.

R. Gil Kerlikowske the Commissioner of Customs and Border Patrol said yesterday , " The designation will not limit the CBP's ability to perform the agencies operations and mission along the US Mexico border."

Kevin McAleenan the Deputy CBP Commissioneer and Scott Falk the chief legal officer of CBP also stated the rumors that the Border Patrol will no longer have jurisdiction or authority within the monument and it's borders are completely false.

This is just another ginned up pile of nonsense spawned by InvestorsDaily.com and far right wing wacko anti-Obama organizations and millions of gullible people fall for it and ignorantly pass it on as if it had a shread of truth involved with it.

Get the straight story, call the US Customs and Border Patrol in Washington at 1-877 CBP-5511 and ask them yourself. Don't rely on ignorant chain mail emails and Fox non-news made up fairy tales for your information. Use your head. The Customs and Border Patrol is not going to stop enforcing the border because a monument has been designated. Get a grip folks.

Brad

 

[Springfield]

Hi Cubber mi campadre: Cafe? You are correct,, Since the Border Patrol will have very limited physical presence it will be a secure entry and exit for the criminal element.. Too much $$ . Next we will see the "Plata o ploma" Silver or lead doctrine moving in. Accept a bribe or you, or one of your family will be shot.

Jose the one eyed Jack de la Mancha

The new Monument won't be an entry/exit point, as it's 40 miles inside the US border. The drug mules and illegals would likely be in vehicles on I-10 or I-25 by the time they get to Las Cruces, and the probably newly-gated dirt roads through the Monument don't offer much to them.

 

[markmar]

gollum

I want to " like " your previous post , but I did not understood something in your writings . Can you explain to continue our debate ?
What you meant when you wrote : " Some go even further back to Hollow Earth, Atlantis or Mu. There, I will need more evidence before jumping on that ship (and I want evidence not from a neo-nazi pedophile) ?

 

[gollum]

gollum

I want to " like " your previous post , but I did not understood something in your writings . Can you explain to continue our debate ?
What you meant when you wrote : " Some go even further back to Hollow Earth, Atlantis or Mu. There, I will need more evidence before jumping on that ship (and I want evidence not from a neo-nazi pedophile) ?

HAHAHA The premiere magazine on the subject of ancient civilizations in North America is called "Ancient American Magazine". It used to be published by a man called Frank Joseph. Recently he is trying to play down his involvement with the magazine by listing himself only as a "Correspondent". It is basically his magazine. Frank Joseph is also known as Frank Collins (a convicted pedophile and head of the US Nazi Party in the 1970s.

..............and this is not my video if anybody is wondering (I would have used "Deutschland Uber Alles" for the soundtrack HAHAHA)






Wayne May is his second in command. May has his own issues with conflicts of interest. He is a Mormon (no problems with Mormons), and a propagandist for the religion.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

I haven't seen an issue lately, but the magazine has a disturbing reputation for alleged fraudulent mormon propaganda - a tradition in the cult dating back a couple hundred years.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I think you missed a big part of my post. Read Father Och's Journal. When the Spanish arrested the Jesuits, they searched EVERYTHING the Order owned. If there would have been anything there, they would have recorded and taken it AT THAT TIME! There would have been nothing left for the Indians to hide.

Mike

I am well aware of the frantic searches done by the Spanish authorities - at SOME missions; the record seems to indicate that no such searches were done in Pimeria Alta, in fact not until after father Garces arrived and "took stock" was any kind of examination done as to what was, or was not in possession of the Jesuits of Pimeria Alta at the moment of the "roundup" (a very misleading term in reference to Arizona's Jesuits, where the Spanish simply had the padre at Guevavi send out letters to the other padres to come in, and they came in!). So while yes there probably were energetic searches done in Mexico City, perhaps even in Arizpe, but as to the wild frontiers - no such thing happened. In other words, the Indians were left there with NO missionaries for some time, only some few Spaniards who started poking about in the absence, and that later.

Also, even where these searches were done - remember the Spanish could only search the places they knew of, and a secret vault room might not have been known about. In fact I would propose that at most mission churches, secret rooms existed which were not known about to the Spanish royal authorities. So I have to respectfully disagree.

I just finished re-reading all 141 pages of this thread, and missed a number of posts to "like" so please to all whom have contributed, accept this as a lazy man's "like" for so many excellent, informative and great questions raised.

That said, I forgot to answer Joe, yes I do have a chapter on Hanno, which explorer as you know Fell and Farley were both convinced had reached, and claimed America. If and when I can get my files off the dead computer that project will be renewed.

Lastly, I should have taken the written words of our main skeptics seriously, much sooner; it has been expressed that our skeptics require the type of evidence which has been verified by independent sources, perhaps in the form of mines certified to be Jesuit-owned and operated, massive, huge treasures likewise certified, metal alloy tests proving that the treasures were made from ores that came from the certified Jesuit mines and etc. You are certainly welcome to demand such evidence, which I believe to be unreasonable and unrealistic, and I will not waste your time or mine, further.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Springfield, Gold Mine, coffee ? You must have missed where I specified "physical presence." the authroity was
never questioned

For a true response go to "http://www.nafbpo.org/" I belong to them since I was a Border Patrol Officer, see attach class 53, I am front row last to the left Curry. There were less than 5,000 en in the entire force than.
""

Don Jose th one eyed Jack de la Mancha
"

 

[UncleMatt]

Hi Cubber mi campadre: Cafe? You are correct,, Since the Border Patrol will have very limited physical presence it will be a secure entry and exit for the criminal element.. Too much $$ . Next we will see the "Plata o ploma" Silver or lead doctrine moving in. Accept a bribe or you, or one of your family will be shot.

Jose the one eyed Jack de la Mancha

A mannequin was hung from a billboard in El Paso last week with "Plato o Ploma" on a placard from around its neck....

 

[Springfield]

Hi Springfield, Gold Mine, coffee ? You must have missed where I specified "physical presence." the authroity was never questioned

The BP has a strong presence up to 100 miles north of the border - their authority is well known in these parts. My opinion was that the new Monument is, in the big picture, a non-issue in the illegal immigrant/drug smuggling game. In fact, the expected presence of additional human activities within the park's borders is probably more likely to reduce illegal activities there.

 

[deducer]

Also, even where these searches were done - remember the Spanish could only search the places they knew of, and a secret vault room might not have been known about. In fact I would propose that at most mission churches, secret rooms existed which were not known about to the Spanish royal authorities. So I have to respectfully disagree.

If you read Fr. Och's description of the searches done by the Spanish, carefully, you get the impression that he is making fun of them. He is mocking them. It is almost as if he is saying "you have no idea where we hid it."

It occurs to me that if the Jesuits really did not conceal any "treasures," Fr. Och would have been mortified, or even outraged. He would have said "How dare you accuse us!" Or at the very least, he would have been shaken by this senseless assault on the character of his company but there is none of this moral outrage or indignation in his writings. It is almost as if he is expecting this to happen.

A sample:

Finally, it occurred to these miners that perhaps the treasure was buried in the locis secretis, and that possibly the cesspool had become a gold mine. The inventor of this idea, the conceited finance-minister, remarked that now he had it figured out, and his crafty thought was applauded. Immediately were fetched ropes and cords, lanterns, and ladders. Fervet opus. The new miners made their first test, bravely lowering themselves well-secured into the shaft. Poles and sticks were lowered to them to serve as divining rods for searching through everything, so that nothing be left unprobed. They stirred and stirred until the chief overseers and inspectors almost swooned from the rising mercurio volatili and had no strength left either to halt or to spur on the miners in the shaft.

 

[Springfield]

... It occurs to me that if the Jesuits really did not conceal any "treasures," Fr. Och would have been mortified, or even outraged. He would have said "How dare you accuse us!" Or at the very least, he would have been shaken by this senseless assault on the character of his company but there is none of this moral outrage or indignation in his writings. It is almost as if he is expecting this to happen.

The flip side of that premise is that Och was truly unshaken because he had no guilt, and didn't care where or what was searched.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi '''springfield coffee" it didntn work in Arizona, The Illlegals=es trashed the areas there;

Don Jose de la mancha