JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

No where did I state that ALL the notes, manuscripts and documents were destroyed. Only those that contained the secrets that the order did not want in history, such as what the generals of the order were advising the priest to conceal, hide and destroy. These words are all negatives and the order wished to be precieved as good to the new world which in most parts they were, as they helped improve the economy, provided "banks" for the population, protection from the wilds of no law, gave a sense of spirituality to those far from the old world, all of which were positives.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I doubt this will suffice, but if the information did not come from "Temporal records" where did they get the information?



Would you like the book?

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Roy,

Just curious.....Have you ever read of the many prospectors, treasure hunters and relic hunters that used the abandoned missions as their base of operations until the park service took over the locations? There were old mines all over those areas. The prospectors may very well have worked the old dumps.

No evidence they did that.

Very unlikely that the prospectors would be involved in anything that would create slag (never mind TH'ers). It would be an unnecessary step that would have just created more expense. I can't think of any prospectors who were known for refining on top of mining, can you?

You are ignoring the big question: who created that slag?

 

[cactusjumper]

No evidence they did that.

Very unlikely that the prospectors would be involved in anything that would create slag (never mind TH'ers). It would be an unnecessary step that would have just created more expense. I can't think of any prospectors who were known for refining on top of mining, can you?

You are ignoring the big question: who created that slag?

OK deducer,

It is "the big question". I don't know. Who do you think created it?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

OK deducer,

It is "the big question". I don't know. Who do you think created it?

Joe Ribaudo

Well you have ruled out the Jesuits for reasons unclear to me, so who does that leave?

 

[cactusjumper]

Well you have ruled out the Jesuits for reasons unclear to me, so who does that leave?

deducer,

I have ruled out.......NO ONE!. You, as well as others, have ruled out everyone.....except the Jesuits. Speaking only of said slag piles, where's the proof? Just another "big question" for you.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Just curious.....Have you ever read of the many prospectors, treasure hunters and relic hunters that used the abandoned missions as their base of operations until the park service took over the locations? There were old mines all over those areas. The prospectors may very well have worked the old dumps. In those times, any return would have been welcomed. Perhaps they added some bulk to some modest slag heaps.

Why no, Joe, I have never read anything whatsoever in the last thirty years of prospecting and treasure hunting. I might ask you the same question - for quite a few of those early American prospectors, told of finding old Jesuit mine workings, like the Salero.

THE SALERO MINES
About three miles south from the Alto are antiguas also, wrought by the Jesuits long, long ago; and it was one of the first to which attention was turned after American occupation sixty years ago, there clustering about it traditions of some of the tragedies of Apache hate ferocity. Until recent years it was in operation, a steady producer high grade lead and silver ores but the death of the chief owners following each other closely some years ago caused suspension of operations and the property stands idle.

<from University of Arizona Bulletin, County Resource Series No.1, Santa Cruz County, Allen T. Bird, 1916, pp 23>


There were old mines all over those areas, and yet no record of any Spaniards having worked them; on the other hand, we have the stories from the Indians whom lived there, that those old and often well hidden mines, had been worked by the padres. As to adding bulk to "Modest" slag heaps, this does not address the slag built into the churches, not to mention that some of the first people to SEE those slag heaps, stated there were HUGE TREES growing on top of them. How do you account for that - fast growing Thujas maybe?

I no longer am trying to change your views on this topic Joe in case you were thinking that was my reason to post, a pretty clear case has been presented in spite of a number of attempts to derail the topic early on; the question was whether the stories of Jesuit treasures (and by extension, the mines which helped amass those treasures) are true, and we have NOT had to resort to any "unknown" Spanish or Anglo miners or prospectors to explain things. Neither have we had to come up with any unknown persons whom were casting bells at the missions, nor actually using the resulting slag to literally decorate the walls. It is a pretty clear picture.

On the other hand, the counter-argument, trying to dismiss everything, has been a hodge-podge of POSSIBLE other explanations, like the mercury used to amalgamate gold, which is exactly what father Och stated that he did with the mercury and yet you were throwing everything against that proverbial wall hoping something MIGHT stick to explain that one away. It does not matter to me how many modern historians "believe" that the Jesuits were mining and smelting or not, just as it has not mattered to you that we have cited the American Geographical Society, the Royal Geographic Society, governors of Arizona, the USGS geologists, the official report submitted by Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, the letter of bishop Palafox, the statements of father Segesser about his living in the "silver mountains" and clearly implying there was an abundance of silver yet had only few silver eating utensils, among numerous others. I do not know, nor really care, why there has been a modern revisionist effort to erase this period of Jesuit activities, but neither will I be silent about it. I still would like to see some answers to the questions posted earlier.

Let me try to point this up - if you were researching about the campaigns of Alexander the Great, whom would you think would have the most accurate information -
A: a modern historian who wrote a book a few years ago,
B: one whom lived two centuries after Alexander, or
C: one that lived and wrote shortly after Alexander died?

It is the same case with this issue of Jesuit mines and treasures; modern historians mostly deny it, but virtually all of the historians and sources closer to the actual events, including some from the Jesuits themselves, state it as a matter of fact.

Cactusjumper also wrote

sailaway,

It's a story of pure fiction that all of the Jesuits notes, manuscripts and documents were destroyed. You are just looking in the wrong places. The big secret is that, there is no secret. Loose quote from Ben Franklin.

Right, and I might point out that we have more readers than active posters here Joe, people to whom you cannot lend a book too handily, which might enjoy reading some of those temporal records from the missions on the frontiers. BTW the Mission 2000 database is a pretty good resource, the way you sort of "sneer" at anything online really amazes me sometimes. There are resources available online, which are not available in books, including rare and old books which otherwise we might not be able to obtain even though they have been published at one time. Can you pull up a book from your excellent library, and see the census records or research newspaper archives, for examples? Do you have copies of the Congressional Record, which is not completely online but some excellent and interesting portions are (so far)?

Thank you for the offer to lend that book BTW, but no need; if I decide to get a copy I can find one.

Cactusjumper also wrote

deducer,

I have ruled out.......NO ONE!. You, as well as others, have ruled out everyone.....except the Jesuits.

NO ONE is ruled out? So you include some mystery American miners as quite possibly the men whom were CASTING BELLS at Guevavi and Tumacacori? Sorry Joe but there is a chain of evidence there, the eyewitness reports of those who saw the slag piles, evidence of casting in the form of a bell mould and a partly cast bell, slag which almost undeniably had to come from smelting ORE, a string of SILVER mines which were found with plenty of evidence they had been worked a long time before and many hidden, and the only people whom actually lived in the area continuously, did not say it was some Spaniards or Americans but the padres. You really think it is SO ridiculous to conclude that the Indians were telling the truth?

Roy

 

[FEMF]

Cactusjumper wrote


Why no, Joe, I have never read anything whatsoever in the last thirty years of prospecting and treasure hunting. I might ask you the same question - for quite a few of those early American prospectors, told of finding old Jesuit mine workings, like the Salero.


<from University of Arizona Bulletin, County Resource Series No.1, Santa Cruz County, Allen T. Bird, 1916, pp 23>


There were old mines all over those areas, and yet no record of any Spaniards having worked them; on the other hand, we have the stories from the Indians whom lived there, that those old and often well hidden mines, had been worked by the padres. As to adding bulk to "Modest" slag heaps, this does not address the slag built into the churches, not to mention that some of the first people to SEE those slag heaps, stated there were HUGE TREES growing on top of them. How do you account for that - fast growing Thujas maybe?

I no longer am trying to change your views on this topic Joe in case you were thinking that was my reason to post, a pretty clear case has been presented in spite of a number of attempts to derail the topic early on; the question was whether the stories of Jesuit treasures (and by extension, the mines which helped amass those treasures) are true, and we have NOT had to resort to any "unknown" Spanish or Anglo miners or prospectors to explain things. Neither have we had to come up with any unknown persons whom were casting bells at the missions, nor actually using the resulting slag to literally decorate the walls. It is a pretty clear picture.

On the other hand, the counter-argument, trying to dismiss everything, has been a hodge-podge of POSSIBLE other explanations, like the mercury used to amalgamate gold, which is exactly what father Och stated that he did with the mercury and yet you were throwing everything against that proverbial wall hoping something MIGHT stick to explain that one away. It does not matter to me how many modern historians "believe" that the Jesuits were mining and smelting or not, just as it has not mattered to you that we have cited the American Geographical Society, the Royal Geographic Society, governors of Arizona, the USGS geologists, the official report submitted by Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, the letter of bishop Palafox, the statements of father Segesser about his living in the "silver mountains" and clearly implying there was an abundance of silver yet had only few silver eating utensils, among numerous others. I do not know, nor really care, why there has been a modern revisionist effort to erase this period of Jesuit activities, but neither will I be silent about it. I still would like to see some answers to the questions posted earlier.

Let me try to point this up - if you were researching about the campaigns of Alexander the Great, whom would you think would have the most accurate information -
A: a modern historian who wrote a book a few years ago,
B: one whom lived two centuries after Alexander, or
C: one that lived and wrote shortly after Alexander died?

It is the same case with this issue of Jesuit mines and treasures; modern historians mostly deny it, but virtually all of the historians and sources closer to the actual events, including some from the Jesuits themselves, state it as a matter of fact.

Cactusjumper also wrote


Right, and I might point out that we have more readers than active posters here Joe, people to whom you cannot lend a book too handily, which might enjoy reading some of those temporal records from the missions on the frontiers. BTW the Mission 2000 database is a pretty good resource, the way you sort of "sneer" at anything online really amazes me sometimes. There are resources available online, which are not available in books, including rare and old books which otherwise we might not be able to obtain even though they have been published at one time. Can you pull up a book from your excellent library, and see the census records or research newspaper archives, for examples? Do you have copies of the Congressional Record, which is not completely online but some excellent and interesting portions are (so far)?

Thank you for the offer to lend that book BTW, but no need; if I decide to get a copy I can find one.

Cactusjumper also wrote


NO ONE is ruled out? So you include some mystery American miners as quite possibly the men whom were CASTING BELLS at Guevavi and Tumacacori? Sorry Joe but there is a chain of evidence there, the eyewitness reports of those who saw the slag piles, evidence of casting in the form of a bell mould and a partly cast bell, slag which almost undeniably had to come from smelting ORE, a string of SILVER mines which were found with plenty of evidence they had been worked a long time before and many hidden, and the only people whom actually lived in the area continuously, did not say it was some Spaniards or Americans but the padres. You really think it is SO ridiculous to conclude that the Indians were telling the truth?

Roy

Roy
You've got Heart! Are You sure Your a Treasure Hunter? Ha, Ha.
It's all about the Truth, is it not. Have a good one Roy.
FEMF

 

[Oroblanco]

PS

I think this has been touched on before, but in reference to those "mystery miners" which have been alluded to as the probable first discoverers and real owners of the string of silver mines in the Santa Ritas. There IS record of an expedition to the Santa Ritas, in 1817, by Spaniards, searching for the THEN lost Jesuit mines. According to one account they did find a mine, and had started mining some ore before they were attacked and driven out by Apaches. How could this be, if those mines were already lost and had to be searched for, when we know that there were Franciscan padres in Tumacacori right near by, and these Spanish had to form an expedition even to get into the Santa Ritas from the part of Mexico that was truly "colonized" with European people. Shouldn't this Spanish expedition have run into the Francican padres working the mines, if it really were the Franciscans whom had done the mining (and by extension, the smelting) or into other Spaniards or very early Anglo prospectors?

I am re-posting something Mike posted earlier, for I think it is important and seems to have gotten ignored: <muchas gracias to Gollum for posting it in the first place>

Col. Poston, in his work on Arizona, quotes the Jesuit records wherein is given a description of the location of their property. It states that standing in the church and looking through the east door towards the mountains, about ten miles distant is seen a sharp picacho or pinnacle, and that near that are the mines worked by the priests. Standing in the old ruined church today and looking through the east door, there is discovered the pinnacle described in the record, and it is the highest point on the ridge through which runs the “Wandering Jew” ledge. The work we uncovered we believe to be a part of that done by the Jesuits. And somewhere in that hill are doubtless deeper and more extensive working, co-temporary and covered in the same way............................................... ..... The Tumacacori priests are said to have left records to show that they operated mines in the Santa Rita mountains and shipped the bullion.

Now I am sure that a skeptic or Jesuit apologist will home in on those terms "...we believe to be a part of that done by the Jesuits" and "the Tumacacori priests are SAID to have left records that they operated mines.." and ignore that opening set of statements, which is NOT vague nor non-commital, it is a positive statement Col. Poston quotes the Jesuit records wherein is given a description of the location of their property, and that near the pinnacle "ARE THE MINES WORKED BY THE PRIESTS".

Actually this discussion has sure given me the urge to get back to southern Arizona myself, unfortunately this fall our trip looks to be an abbreviated version so there will be no time to return to a particular canyon in the Santa Ritas but I sure look forward to getting back there again as soon as I can! However I will be happy to see our friends again at the Rendezvous, (God willing and the crick don't rise) and to spend time with our pard Loke despite his mean streak.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

FEMF wrote

Roy
You've got Heart! Are You sure Your a Treasure Hunter? Ha, Ha.
It's all about the Truth, is it not. Have a good one Roy.
FEMF

Thanks buddy and of course you are completely right, it is all about the Truth (big T) - heck I spent days exploring some old Indian ruins on my last trip to AZ, not looking for any kind of treasure just looking at the neat ruins and wondering who, or whom those people were, and what happened to them? I think that a majority of treasure hunters are very interested in history, even if they do not start out with that interest it is a natural by-product so to speak. In a sense, you are also a treasure hunter, seeking the treasure of history and knowledge rather than gold or silver.

I hope all is well with you buddy and hope that we can meet some day, perhaps at the next Dutch-hunters rendezvous?
Roy

 

[Loke]

Hmmm - just wondering about that mean streak (looking around) nah - can't see no mean streak anywhere ...
Oro, me friend, me thinks you must be somewhat mistaken - maybe your dakotian head has got a wee bit too full of jesuits? Don't forget now - we have a mission to do come fall!!

 

[Oroblanco]

Hmmm - just wondering about that mean streak (looking around) nah - can't see no mean streak anywhere ...
Oro, me friend, me thinks you must be somewhat mistaken - maybe your dakotian head has got a wee bit too full of jesuits? Don't forget now - we have a mission to do come fall!!

Ah, some talents do not show - like pointing out one's pleasant weather to a friend suffering under a blizzard for example!

A mission you say, surely, not a Jesuit mission?

 

[Loke]

Ahhhh - and now you gave the game away!! Sheeesh!

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


Why no, Joe, I have never read anything whatsoever in the last thirty years of prospecting and treasure hunting. I might ask you the same question - for quite a few of those early American prospectors, told of finding old Jesuit mine workings, like the Salero.


<from University of Arizona Bulletin, County Resource Series No.1, Santa Cruz County, Allen T. Bird, 1916, pp 23>


There were old mines all over those areas, and yet no record of any Spaniards having worked them; on the other hand, we have the stories from the Indians whom lived there, that those old and often well hidden mines, had been worked by the padres. As to adding bulk to "Modest" slag heaps, this does not address the slag built into the churches, not to mention that some of the first people to SEE those slag heaps, stated there were HUGE TREES growing on top of them. How do you account for that - fast growing Thujas maybe?

I no longer am trying to change your views on this topic Joe in case you were thinking that was my reason to post, a pretty clear case has been presented in spite of a number of attempts to derail the topic early on; the question was whether the stories of Jesuit treasures (and by extension, the mines which helped amass those treasures) are true, and we have NOT had to resort to any "unknown" Spanish or Anglo miners or prospectors to explain things. Neither have we had to come up with any unknown persons whom were casting bells at the missions, nor actually using the resulting slag to literally decorate the walls. It is a pretty clear picture.

On the other hand, the counter-argument, trying to dismiss everything, has been a hodge-podge of POSSIBLE other explanations, like the mercury used to amalgamate gold, which is exactly what father Och stated that he did with the mercury and yet you were throwing everything against that proverbial wall hoping something MIGHT stick to explain that one away. It does not matter to me how many modern historians "believe" that the Jesuits were mining and smelting or not, just as it has not mattered to you that we have cited the American Geographical Society, the Royal Geographic Society, governors of Arizona, the USGS geologists, the official report submitted by Lieutenant Sylvester Mowry, West Point grad and US Boundary Commissioner, the letter of bishop Palafox, the statements of father Segesser about his living in the "silver mountains" and clearly implying there was an abundance of silver yet had only few silver eating utensils, among numerous others. I do not know, nor really care, why there has been a modern revisionist effort to erase this period of Jesuit activities, but neither will I be silent about it. I still would like to see some answers to the questions posted earlier.

Let me try to point this up - if you were researching about the campaigns of Alexander the Great, whom would you think would have the most accurate information -
A: a modern historian who wrote a book a few years ago,
B: one whom lived two centuries after Alexander, or
C: one that lived and wrote shortly after Alexander died?

It is the same case with this issue of Jesuit mines and treasures; modern historians mostly deny it, but virtually all of the historians and sources closer to the actual events, including some from the Jesuits themselves, state it as a matter of fact.

Cactusjumper also wrote


Right, and I might point out that we have more readers than active posters here Joe, people to whom you cannot lend a book too handily, which might enjoy reading some of those temporal records from the missions on the frontiers. BTW the Mission 2000 database is a pretty good resource, the way you sort of "sneer" at anything online really amazes me sometimes. There are resources available online, which are not available in books, including rare and old books which otherwise we might not be able to obtain even though they have been published at one time. Can you pull up a book from your excellent library, and see the census records or research newspaper archives, for examples? Do you have copies of the Congressional Record, which is not completely online but some excellent and interesting portions are (so far)?

Thank you for the offer to lend that book BTW, but no need; if I decide to get a copy I can find one.

Cactusjumper also wrote


NO ONE is ruled out? So you include some mystery American miners as quite possibly the men whom were CASTING BELLS at Guevavi and Tumacacori? Sorry Joe but there is a chain of evidence there, the eyewitness reports of those who saw the slag piles, evidence of casting in the form of a bell mould and a partly cast bell, slag which almost undeniably had to come from smelting ORE, a string of SILVER mines which were found with plenty of evidence they had been worked a long time before and many hidden, and the only people whom actually lived in the area continuously, did not say it was some Spaniards or Americans but the padres. You really think it is SO ridiculous to conclude that the Indians were telling the truth?

Roy

Roy,

Thank you for that post. It did wake me up.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

You, as well as others, have ruled out everyone.....except the Jesuits.

Please show me where I have done that.

Speaking only of said slag piles, where's the proof? Just another "big question" for you.
Joe Ribaudo

I think Roy is the one who is trying to ask you that question.

You still have not come up with an alternate scenario that is plausible.

 

[Springfield]

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
Winston Churchill

 

[sailaway]

looking at my recent Photographs I discovered another change. On the mountain in the foreground seems to be a new mine opened up from the disturbance.
First trip into Rogers Canyon.
Second trip into the Canyon,

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

You wrote : " As to adding bulk to "Modest" slag heaps, this does not address the slag built into the churches, not to mention that some of the first people to SEE those slag heaps, stated there were HUGE TREES growing on top of them. How do you account for that - fast growing Thujas maybe? "


When I have posted at 31 March a picture and I asked from " sailaway " to tell me if he could seen the Purisima C. mine , I hoped to see the mine which has a tree on it . This practice of covering was frequently used in that time . I post the same picture , but now I have mark the mine . And another picture , as gift , with the landscape of the Purisima mine .



Have a nice day

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco

When I have posted at 31 March a picture and I asked from " sailaway " to tell me if he could seen the Purisima C. mine , I hoped to see the mine which has a tree on it . This practice of covering was frequently used in that time . I post the same picture , but now I have mark the mine . And another picture , as gift , with the landscape of the Purisima mine .

View attachment 1002193 View attachment 1002194

Have a nice day

Planting trees on top of old mines sounds like a good way to hide it IMHO, however in those stories involving planted trees and lost mines, usually the trees are planted around the mine, so as to help locate it again rather than to conceal it. It is also possible for trees (shrubs, cactus) to grow on a covered mine simply by accident too, which makes finding the mine very difficult indeed.

That site you have pointed out for a possible location of La Purisma Concepcion mine - is it south of Tumacacori? Thanks in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript:

In reference to some of the good to excellent ONLINE resources available, for our readers whom do not post (or rarely) here are some examples:

An excellent argument against Jesuit mines and treasures by father Charles Polzer, SJ, published in the Aug 1962 issue of Desert magazine:
http://mydesertmagazine.com/files/196208-DesertMagazine-1962-August.pdf
<it is a PDF file so you will need a program that can handle that file type, like Adobe Acrobat, and of course the article begins on page 22>

The Mission 2000 database, which includes a good collection of Jesuit and Franciscan documents from the colonial era (no temporal records however, and only one Will)
Mission 2000

The Arizona Memory Project site, lots of great info
Arizona Memory Project

Arizona Digital Newspaper archive online:
Arizona Digital Newspaper Program

the Library of Congress newspaper archive collection, getting better all the time as more are added:
Search U.S. Newspaper Directory, 1690-Present « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

the Congressional Record archive:
Congressional Records Collection

This page has links to several censuses for Arizona
Arizona Census Records |Arizona Census Finder| Arizona Census Links

This page has links to several databases online, some in Spanish and some covering NM, Chihuahua etc
Other Databases and Links - Office of Ethnohistorical Research - Arizona State Museum

the state museum of Arizona just mentioned has their own impressive collections:
Collections of the Arizona State Museum

Just a sampling of what is available online, there is much more at Google books, Google Books, and Archive.org: https://archive.org/

Having said all this, there is also a wealth of information in books, which are NOT online and many never will be, so it is wise to buy, borrow from libraries etc in your research. Most libraries now also offer interlibrary loans, so that if a book is rare and/or your local library simply doesn't have a copy, you can borrow a copy from another library in your state or even another state for the cost of the postage (usually) or a small fee. Many good books have already been mentioned in this long thread (and others) and as this is getting long winded I won't list books to suggest but perhaps someone else might? Thanks in advance,

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Whoops almost forgot this, but some excellent old map collections are also online, including

David Rumsey Historical Map Collection | The Collection

Historical Map Web Sites - Perry-Castañeda Map Collection - UT Library Online

That should get you started anyway!