JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[UncleMatt]

So the people we feel were the "hands on" agents of the Jesuits may never have even been rounded up? What if most coadjutors escaped? I can envision all manner of possibilities here. Perhaps while the priests were being rounded up, the coadjutors were making good their escape. If they DID escape, they would have been free to recover what they knew was hidden. Perhaps for personal gain, perhaps to deliver it to the church. Just some musings that occurred to me.

 

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[deducer]

One of her source is, Archivo General de Mitra(Hermosillo).

I think you mean the Archivo de la Mitra in Hermosillo.

She also relied on two other Archives in Hermosillo.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Unk Matt} you are getting it, In some cases they did recover materiel , but in the case of the metal that was being transported across the northern strip of Mexico to be transshipped to Rome, some of it still lies in various missions in the underground vaults where it was stored for the night. This is why, on a few occasions, a large amount of metal has been found by metal detectors at these sites, and no explainable, or acceptable reason, for it being there.

It has been assumed that these deposits were put there by various bandits or revolutionaries during the various Revelations or wars.

Why didn't the society recover them later? who knows, perhaps they expected to return sooner than they did, maybe the personel were scattered too muxh . or conditions were too dangerous for one reasons or another --this will be my final project on Tayopa

Don Jose de le 9% two eyed Jack de la mancha






c

 

[cactusjumper]

I think you mean the Archivo de la Mitra in Hermosillo.

She also relied on two other Archives in Hermosillo.

deducer,

The only mistake I made in that post was not having an "s" at the end of "source".

As for "Archivo de la Mitra (Hermosillo)", just read it as I wrote it. That's exactly the way the author described the source and that's more than good enough for me.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

The only mistake I made in that post was not having an "s" at the end of "source".

As for "Archivo de la Mitra (Hermosillo)", just read it as I wrote it. That's exactly the way the author described the source and that's more than good enough for me.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[The slag built into the very walls of the missions in Arizona, the string of silver mines in Arizona, the impressive treasures found in Brazil and Spain, are "non-specific evidence"? Would you also class the various statements cited from father Nentvig, Och, Segesser et al, also as "non-specific"?]

No, I don't find those statements specific enough to make them convincing that the Jesuits were involved in mining. As I have said before, I don't doubt that some priests were breaking that rule, maybe bending it.

As for the slag in the walls........Who built the walls, when were they built and how much slag was at the location? Was the slag actually in the structure or just on the exterior coating?

For the record, I don't just read the history of the missions written by the Jesuits, but admit to having many of their books as they used the writings of the mission priests as sources. I have had personal contact with many of those authors over a number of years. None believed that the Jesuits were involved in extensive mining. They are all much more educated on Jesuit mission history than I am. They have all searched the pertinent archives in Mexico, which I have not. I don't know about the others who are posting here.

I don't know why you must "presume" that I own a copy of "Wandering Peoples", as I just offered to send you one. It won't be the one that is signed, but I am a bit stingy with those.

I will be a bit slow in answering all your question. I apologize, but that's my reality these days.

Best to you, Beth and the pack,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Please let the other posters comment on this post......first:

You should keep in mind that rules do not describe history. They are guidelines of policy and conduct. At one and the same time they denote probable conformity and possible disregard. But in any case ......rules had to be reckoned with as they affected life on the mission frontier.

First I would like to read what others think of those comments, and then your comments.

Thanks Mike,

Joe

Come on folks. We need a few people to comment on Joe's Post. I too want to see what people think of this before I jump in.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

View attachment 1001805

deducer,

Thanks for the clarification. I had never seen the Google version of the book. My book is an inscribed first edition which Ms Radding sent to me. It's likely that Google added "Mexico" to the original to make sure it's readers knew where Hermosillo was.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Come on folks. We need a few people to comment on Joe's Post. I too want to see what people think of this before I jump in.

Mike

Mike,

Thank you. I can see where some folks might not want to weigh-in on that post, as I have not been answering many questions lately. I think we will agree as to the meaning being conveyed.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Thanks for the clarification. I had never seen the Google version of the book. My book is an inscribed first edition which Ms Radding sent to me. It's likely that Google added "Mexico" to the original to make sure it's readers knew where Hermosillo was.

Joe Ribaudo

There is no "google version." Google does absolutely nothing besides scanning original work, including revising, adding, or otherwise distorting text.

 

[gollum]

Okay Joe,

I can't sit and wait for this. Funny that you HAD to read the following part BEFORE getting to the part you posted:

This particular volume on the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain focuses on the administration of the mission system. The rules and precepts presented here should dispel the erroneous assumption of several decades that the frontier missionary was a free agent or that the mission was a miniparish in the making. THE MISSIONARIES LABORED UNDER A HIGHLY RESTRICTIVE SET OF REGULATIONS AND LEGAL REQUIREMENTS. ALTHOUGH THE MISSIONS FLOURISHED AT GREAT DISTANCES FROM THE CAPITALS OF POLITICAL POWER, THEY WERE INTIMATELY WOVEN INTO THE FABRIC OF RELIGIOUS AND CIVIL CONTROL. AS THESE RULES DEMONSTRATE, EVEN THE NUMBER OF MULES IN A PACK TRAIN AND THE AMOUNT OF ALMS TO A BEGGAR WERE CAREFULLY AND CONTINUALLY REGULATED.

Don't just quote the part that suits your side of the argument buddy!

Mike

 

[releventchair]

Late to rules comments. Only my opinion.They existed from internal and external sources with their effect maybe more telling just prior to and during expulsion. Discipline/enforcement from sources of rules prior to expulsion could be watched for in writings but may not have been a common subject of record.. Being rules,bending to be expected. Enforcement would determine amount of adherence to unpopular ones.

 

[cactusjumper]

There is no "google version." Google does absolutely nothing besides scanning original work, including revising, adding, or otherwise distorting text.

I'm no expert on Google books. As I said, I do have a first edition and Mexico does not follow Hermosillo. Something was changed before it arrived on your computer, not that it's important.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"You should keep in mind that rules do not describe history. They are guidelines of policy and conduct. At one and the same time they denote probable conformity and possible disregard. But in any case ......rules had to be reckoned with as they affected life on the mission frontier."

As Father Polzer stated above, my point was to show that the rules were not as absolute as you have stated. Of course that should have been obvious to everyone. It's still a leap to go from that to extensive mining by the Jesuits.

Can you tell us who did the careful and continual regulation?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

[The slag built into the very walls of the missions in Arizona, the string of silver mines in Arizona, the impressive treasures found in Brazil and Spain, are "non-specific evidence"? Would you also class the various statements cited from father Nentvig, Och, Segesser et al, also as "non-specific"?]

No, I don't find those statements specific enough to make them convincing that the Jesuits were involved in mining. As I have said before, I don't doubt that some priests were breaking that rule, maybe bending it.

As for the slag in the walls........Who built the walls, when were they built and how much slag was at the location? Was the slag actually in the structure or just on the exterior coating?

Whom built the two missions mentioned? Are they not credited to the Franciscans? So we have two missions, built by Franciscans, which have slag built into the exterior coatings where it is visible. Who knows if it is inside of that, but considering that it is apparently put there for decorative effect, it seems unlikely. Most historians credit the construction of these two churches to the Franciscans BTW. It should be safe to assume that the slag was on the spot when the churches were built, and not imported from some distant point. So we have mounds of slag reported at several missions, slag built into the very walls of two of them; bell casting evidence at Guevavi and Tumacacori. Yeah I must be completely hare-brained to be making any conclusions from that!



Cactusjumper also wrote

For the record, I don't just read the history of the missions written by the Jesuits, but admit to having many of their books as they used the writings of the mission priests as sources. I have had personal contact with many of those authors over a number of years. None believed that the Jesuits were involved in extensive mining. They are all much more educated on Jesuit mission history than I am. They have all searched the pertinent archives in Mexico, which I have not. I don't know about the others who are posting here.

Perhaps I should make a point here - I do not care what any historians have to say about anything, when I research it myself. Biases and opinions color the works of all historians. Plus as far as I can determine, virtually NO historian of modern times, has shown the slightest bit of interest in any mining activities in the southwest, Jesuit or otherwise. On the other hand, the only kind of "historian" that HAS shown an interest in this aspect of history, namely the good geologists of the USGS, whom have bothered to research the history of the respective areas they were studying, have in fact attributed considerable mining activities TO the Jesuits, and included those piles of slag, the smelters (which are not to be seen today) the charcoal pits etc as solid evidence to support their contention. Of course you are certainly free and welcome to accept ANY conclusions of any consensus of historians, just as you are free to accept the consensus of scientists about global warming, but nothing prevents ME from arriving at my own conclusions. I can list other examples where I personally disagree with a great majority of modern historians, like the existence of Atlantis, whether Phoenicians reached the Americas (though that situation has been changing a bit) just for starters, so you are welcome to classify me among the Tinfoil Hat Brigade or those glassy-eyed "dreamer" type treasure hunters all too ready to believe anything in the way of treasure. Historians can and do get things wrong, and when a powerful influential group exerts pressure, historians are not above bending to that pressure. BTW, MOST of the OLDER historians, those closer to the events, state that the Jesuits were the pioneer miners (and smelters) in Arizona.

Doesn't it tell you something, that here in just Arizona as an example, we have "legends" of Jesuit mines, a whole string of silver mines and a few gold, corresponding to a set of mines mentioned by Jesuit father Nentvig, mounds of slag found at two missions and slag built into two (not the same two), the lavish description of how well "ornamented" even the little "visita" missions were of the Jesuits, the massive silver altar seen at San Xavier, and all of this is supposed to not indicate what the simplest answer is, that the padres (of both Orders) were actively mining and smelting. To me, that is stretching it too much to try to dismiss the whole body of evidence, which apparently some are happy to do, inventing imaginary Spanish miners for the mines and smelting, that the Indians were making up stories to "lure tourists" <??> and judging the wealth of the Jesuits by the pittance found there after they left. Oh and BTW, most of the FOUND Jesuit mines, were found to be pretty well hidden, not laying open for the world to see.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I don't know why you must "presume" that I own a copy of "Wandering Peoples", as I just offered to send you one. It won't be the one that is signed, but I am a bit stingy with those.

The same reason I PRESUME you are married, it is a SAFE ASSUMPTION based on your own statements.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I will be a bit slow in answering all your question. I apologize, but that's my reality these days.

Best to you, Beth and the pack,

Joe

Best to you too - however have a bit more to add, on another post you made.


Cactusjumper also wrote

Mike,

Please let the other posters comment on this post......first:

You should keep in mind that rules do not describe history. They are guidelines of policy and conduct. At one and the same time they denote probable conformity and possible disregard. But in any case ......rules had to be reckoned with as they affected life on the mission frontier.

First I would like to read what others think of those comments, and then your comments.

Thanks Mike,

Joe

I did not take this as directed to me as I have posted my views on this several times over the years. These rules and precepts, far from being "guidelines" like how long to heat a cup of coffee in a microwave, were ATTEMPTS by the ranking Jesuits to rein in the activities of the padres and lay brothers in the distant provinces and wild frontiers. Hence we see a pattern of such orders issued from higher ranks, without the evidence that led to them, but in a few cases like the French Jesuits in Canada and Louisiana, where the padres on the frontier DID try to argue against those rules and precepts. In one example, a long letter arguing to allow the priests to engage in the fur trade was posted, several years ago, counter to direct orders from Rome to STOP trading in furs. So what we see is a pattern of open disbehavior of the rules and orders issued by Rome, by the priests operating far from Rome. I am certain that they felt they were justified, as in that letter mentioned, he argued that furs were the "money of the country" and how "delightful" it was to engage in the trade, as well as extremely profitable. It is the logical conclusion then, especially when viewed in concert with the repeated Spanish royal orders for religious to STOP MINING, the obvious reason was that it was because the priests, nuns, lay brothers were mining, more than some stray malcontent singular example, and these activities WOULD NOT STOP nor obey the laws. NO one seemed to be willing or able to enforce those laws, much less the Rules and Precepts. When anyone did try to rein in the Jesuits, like bishop Palafox, he became a "Jesuit hater" and was assailed by every device the Order and the powerful friends they held influence over could wield.

How do YOU read that, Joe?

Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Whom built the two missions mentioned? Are they not credited to the Franciscans? So we have two missions, built by Franciscans, which have slag built into the exterior coatings where it is visible. Who knows if it is inside of that, but considering that it is apparently put there for decorative effect, it seems unlikely. Most historians credit the construction of these two churches to the Franciscans BTW. It should be safe to assume that the slag was on the spot when the churches were built, and not imported from some distant point. So we have mounds of slag reported at several missions, slag built into the very walls of two of them; bell casting evidence at Guevavi and Tumacacori. Yeah I must be completely hare-brained to be making any conclusions from that!"

It seems just possible that the slag piles may not have come from the Jesuits. Perhaps I am the hare-brained one for even considering that possibility.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,



It seems just possible that the slag piles may not have come from the Jesuits. Perhaps I am the hare-brained one for even considering that possibility.

Take care,

Joe

I have to sign off in a moment, but certainly it is POSSIBLE that the slag did not come from the Jesuit activities, however SOMEONE certainly made that slag, and it is notable that it was used to decorate the walls of the church. Considering we have a string of sources that clearly attribute the mining and smelting to the JESUITS, all of which you discount, who or whom do you say was doing the smelting at Guevavi and Tumacacori, and almost certainly at San Xavier del Bac?
Roy

 

[sailaway]

I see the whole issue as the Jesuits bent the rules. If they bent the rule ever so slightly, then why on earth would they tell the truth on anything. Once proven a lair there would be no reason that they should tell the truth. The truth is in all the documents that were destroyed by the fathers. Being as those are not around to read we have to try and find the truth that is somewhere in the middle. All of this has convinced me to spend the rest of my life searching that truth. Just like now it will be harder now that it will not be so easy with such tools as ground penetrating radar to find my cache that I know is in the corner of Rogers Canyon.

 

[cactusjumper]

I have to sign off in a moment, but certainly it is POSSIBLE that the slag did not come from the Jesuit activities, however SOMEONE certainly made that slag, and it is notable that it was used to decorate the walls of the church. Considering we have a string of sources that clearly attribute the mining and smelting to the JESUITS, all of which you discount, who or whom do you say was doing the smelting at Guevavi and Tumacacori, and almost certainly at San Xavier del Bac?
Roy

Roy,

Just curious.....Have you ever read of the many prospectors, treasure hunters and relic hunters that used the abandoned missions as their base of operations until the park service took over the locations? There were old mines all over those areas. The prospectors may very well have worked the old dumps. In those times, any return would have been welcomed. Perhaps they added some bulk to some modest slag heaps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I see the whole issue as the Jesuits bent the rules. If they bent the rule ever so slightly, then why on earth would they tell the truth on anything. Once proven a lair there would be no reason that they should tell the truth. The truth is in all the documents that were destroyed by the fathers. Being as those are not around to read we have to try and find the truth that is somewhere in the middle. All of this has convinced me to spend the rest of my life searching that truth. Just like now it will be harder now that it will not be so easy with such tools as ground penetrating radar to find my cache that I know is in the corner of Rogers Canyon.View attachment 1001904

sailaway,

It's a story of pure fiction that all of the Jesuits notes, manuscripts and documents were destroyed. You are just looking in the wrong places. The big secret is that, there is no secret. Loose quote from Ben Franklin.

Cynthia Radding told me she studied for fifteen years at the Mexican Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia doing the research for her books. I doubt there are any here that have shown the same dedication and sacrifice for history. Like many others, I am unwilling to make that kind of sacrifice for my opinions. Instead I depend on those who do.

Good luck,

Joe