Jesuit Treasure - Putting It All Together

[sdcfia]

It was my belief that the Jesuits were the military arm of the Church and went with the Armies in the New World to Bless the Soldiers as they converted the Indians by the sword. A lot like the Moslems did when they started out their conquests. But the Jesuits stayed behind and opened Missions to convert the Indians and then when gold or silver were found, had the Indians work the mines/deposits "For the Glory of God". Now God didn't include the Pope or the Kings to them. Back then (1500-1700) most of the Popes were appointed by the kings and not by the Cardinals by ballot. So they could pledge to the Pope but not feel he was really "God's Vicar on Earth". Loopholes again. Just my thoughts on this.

In these times, both sides were essentially well-organized bands of murderous zealots of course, but one interesting difference was that the Muslims tended not to be xenophobic like the Christians were. Regardless where their slaves were captured - many were Christians - the Muslims were quick to recognize talent of any kind and provided qualified infidels with a path to great advancement - even to the top of the Ottoman society - as long as the infidel accepted the new faith and followed all the rules. Otherwise, it was off with their heads, of course. Despite the inflexibility, these opportunities were not to be sneezed at, as the Ottoman empire arguably possessed the world's finest educational and technological facilities at the time. On the other hand, the Christian approach tended to view their infidels with compassion to some extent, but generally saw their vanquished as somewhat a lower brand of human and didn't offer much more to them other than menial "work".

 

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[deducer]

From the Archivo General De La Naciõn, a collection of Jesuit letters translated (not very well) by Campbell Pennington, we see an example of what led to the precept directly banning Jesuits from card-playing/gambling by Father Provincial Andres Garcia in 1747 (these letters are from the 1746-48 period). I think this is also part of the reason that the Father Rectors were imploring their brethren that the writing of letters be taken with extra prudence, not just because of the brazen discussion of mining, et al. but also the salacious rumors being passed around, as the letter below shows:



Who knew that those Jesuits, as far as gossiping, could give any of the "Real Housewives" shows a run for their money?

 

[gollum]

From the Archivo General De La Naciõn, a collection of Jesuit letters translated (not very well) by Campbell Pennington, we see an example of what led to the precept directly banning Jesuits from card-playing/gambling by Father Provincial Andres Garcia in 1747 (these letters are from the 1746-48 period). I think this is also part of the reason that the Father Rectors were imploring their brethren that the writing of letters be taken with extra prudence, not just because of the brazen discussion of mining, et al. but also the salacious rumors being passed around, as the letter below shows:

View attachment 1313225

Who knew that those Jesuits, as far as gossiping, could give any of the "Real Housewives" shows a run for their money?

View attachment 1313228

Another neat little tidbit from your posted letters is that ALL the official reports of the Pearl Business tells of how poor the Pearl Fishermen were. Nothing successful came from Pearl Diving. Funny how Father Trevino managed to get 13 pounds of pearls in one trip. THAT is a lot of pearls!

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Who knew that those Jesuits, as far as gossiping, could give any of the "Real Housewives" shows a run for their money?

Why would we expect that these guys to suppress their human nature? After all, despite the religious spin, they were just guys in robes. Edgar Allen Poe, no stranger to personal conflicts himself, used to hang out with his Jesuit pals at St Johns College in the 1840s. He really liked them, not only because, "they were highly cultivated gentlemen and scholars," but also because, "they smoked and they drank and they played cards, and they never said a word about religion."

 

[gollum]

Steve,

For the same reason we EXPECT Police Officers to act properly. Police take an oath to Serve and Protect. If someone attacks/shoots a Police Officer, we expect that they should be treated more harshly, because if they will attack a Cop, then they wouldn't hesitate to harm a civilian. Same reason to hold Police to a higher standard.

A Priest takes several vows, and works VERY diligently to become a Priest. They swear on their immortal souls. THAT is why they are held to a higher standard.

........and in my opinion, when a Cop or Priest breaks the law, they should be treated more severely than if Joe Schmoe the Bagman gets caught stealing.

Mike

 

[audigger53]

Because they have failed in the Trust of the Public. "Trust is hard to get back once lost." That was from my father when I was still in High School. Another nugget of Wisdom from him. "Not all liars are thieves, but all thieves are liars."

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

For the same reason we EXPECT Police Officers to act properly. Police take an oath to Serve and Protect. If someone attacks/shoots a Police Officer, we expect that they should be treated more harshly, because if they will attack a Cop, then they wouldn't hesitate to harm a civilian. Same reason to hold Police to a higher standard.

A Priest takes several vows, and works VERY diligently to become a Priest. They swear on their immortal souls. THAT is why they are held to a higher standard.

........and in my opinion, when a Cop or Priest breaks the law, they should be treated more severely than if Joe Schmoe the Bagman gets caught stealing.

Mike

It's a topic that can be discussed from many angles. Let's just say that there have been many methods used to modify human behavior - some stick, others don't. However, there is no way to change an individual's human nature. We're all uniquely hard-wired at birth.

 

[deducer]

Why would we expect that these guys to suppress their human nature? After all, despite the religious spin, they were just guys in robes. Edgar Allen Poe, no stranger to personal conflicts himself, used to hang out with his Jesuit pals at St Johns College in the 1840s. He really liked them, not only because, "they were highly cultivated gentlemen and scholars," but also because, "they smoked and they drank and they played cards, and they never said a word about religion."

What makes this exceptional and quite interesting, was just how much drinking and gambling was going on as far as the fathers were concerned. Here is yet another example, concerning a different father who also had to be carried to bed:



I also have an example where a father supposedly "ruined the virtues of two girls at once" (!!!) but can't for the life of me find it.

My point is not to disparage these old school Jesuits, nor cast them in a bad light, but to illustrate that, as you say, they were strong, independent thinkers, which is the supreme irony here, because the very existence of the organization was to spearhead the counterreformation, and check the growing threat of the enlightenment era.

Yet they were trained to think for themselves, an idea that was at the time, sacrilegious, but one that was at the heart of the enlightenment movement- that reason should the primary source of authority (as opposed to the church). Talk about irony!

And clearly they had reasoned some sort of justification for all this drinking, card-playing, and debauchery.

And just to sling a little **** on the fan, these are the very same fathers who were supposedly also obeying the precepts to not mine or be associated with mining in any way.

 

[gollum]

Deducer,

Just like many American Troops, Jesuits are trained to OBEY ORDERS. PERIOD. They are also taught to think for themselves (as long as it doesn't conflict with Rule#1). They need to be self-reliant when they are in the desolate wilderness by themselves.

Mike

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

Just like many American Troops, Jesuits are trained to OBEY ORDERS. PERIOD. They are also taught to think for themselves (as long as it doesn't conflict with Rule#1). They need to be self-reliant when they are in the desolate wilderness by themselves.

Mike

Mike,

Their loyalty to the company, and its leading principles was absolutely beyond question. I personally have seen evidence of this out in the field, where they made enormous sacrifices and put in an astounding amount of labor without cutting corners. That made a big impression on me.

Their devout adherence to the company hierarchy was also beyond question.

But when it comes to following orders, is where I believe things become a little murky.

I am sure that you have had personal experience, from your military background, of instances where orders while not directly disobeyed, were slightly circumvented.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Deducer, ya mean like when I returned from overseas, Guadalcanal, in 43 i recived orders to report to the Naval,
arstation., It took me three weeks to go from San Diego to Moffet field - I stopped off to go deer hunting first, then reorted in,

Legally they could do nothing since my orders had no reporting date,but I was denied liberty until I returned overseas a month later--back to Guadalcanal--shortage of manpower..sigh then on to the Phllippime.

As you see I obeyed the letter of the law, but so did they sigh

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I think ,they put God's law first. They wasn't that loyal the the kings during that time.

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[gollum]

Mike,

Their loyalty to the company, and its leading principles was absolutely beyond question. I personally have seen evidence of this out in the field, where they made enormous sacrifices and put in an astounding amount of labor without cutting corners. That made a big impression on me.

Their devout adherence to the company hierarchy was also beyond question.

But when it comes to following orders, is where I believe things become a little murky.

I am sure that you have had personal experience, from your military background, of instances where orders while not directly disobeyed, were slightly circumvented.

Sorry Buddy. If you are given a DIRECT order (Stand in front of that door, making sure NOBODY goes in, until I come back), then you follow it directly. Then there are orders that aren't so direct (Make sure we have enough 7.62mm ammunition). No instructions as to how to make sure, so that is left up to my interpretation.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry Buddy. If you are given a DIRECT order (Stand in front of that door, making sure NOBODY goes in, until I come back), then you follow it directly. Then there are orders that aren't so direct (Make sure we have enough 7.62mm ammunition). No instructions as to how to make sure, so that is left up to my interpretation.

Mike

Mike,

Once again, in the final analysis the Jesuits were just men. They would bend the rules when they felt it necessary. They were a long way from Mexico City and even farther from Rome. IMHO, Your assessment (as well as mine) from modern times has no bearing on the reality of the early Jesuit's time. Considering their impressive successes with the technologies they possessed at the time, I have little doubt they did what they had to, to insure the continuation of their own lives and the Jesuit Order in the New World.

Just one man's opinion.

Hope all is well with you and yours. I am really enjoying your posts,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

One other thing.......Starting with the President and continuing down to the lowest private, or whatever, direct orders or the constitution is often ignored as circumstances dictate. Many of you are constantly telling us that the Jesuits broke the rules on a fairly continual basis. I agree, but they were restrained by the authorities that patrolled the countryside and made frequent visits. After all, the missions were the absolute best rest stops to be found.

Take care,

Joe

 

[audigger53]

They were searched before taking them to Mexico City. So they made sure that they had nothing to show any mines or output from mines when the troops arrived. They believed that they would be back shortly. It was over 90 years before they were allowed to "come back" to look. Even then they didn't do it as Priests. No map, second hand storys of landmarks, and landmarks change over time. If you look at the landscape in the areas, you either really know it or it is easy to get confused in the hills/mountains in Arizona. Know that for a fact, if you go off trail, you better really know what you are doing and hope that God loves you.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Az, they were expelled for insurection, they were plotting to take North America away from Spain. They were freely mining in South America.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Suppose this. The whole time they where amassing all this treasure. It wasn't their intention on keeping any of it. They took a vow of poverty. They saw how the kings men were to the slaves. They stashed small caches all over the place for some other reason. To keep the greedy kings from getting it. Or maybe they were keeping it for a future King. Christ was their King. Waiting for his return. I have seen it on stone about being for the future. By doing this they would be doing a honorable thing. And the most important thing is not breaking their vows.

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[audigger53]

Well the story I heard was that they would send the gold and silver back down to the Jesuit Mission just outside of Mexico city until a Jesuit ship would come in. Then the ballast would be dumped and replaced with the bullion. The Jesuits didn't give it to the Pope either as they were all political appointees from 1500s-1780s. Just what I have heard and believe from thinking about human nature and the Jesuits.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Well that could go very well with what I was saying. It does matter how they did it. Just that they didn't get caught with it.

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