Jesuit Treasure - Putting It All Together

[itzyoboyandrew]

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[deducer]

Mike, that argument is just too convenient a means of rationalizing why the locations of the alleged hidden Arizona Jesuit caches are unidentified today. I don't buy it because it requires a major tactical failure on the part of the Jesuits, which is completely out of character for them.

Maybe because I just spent a month in parts of Italy, eastern Sicily and Malta examining the genius of Renaissance-era scientists, artists, explorers, military tacticians, religio, shipbuilders, architects, arms manufacturers, etc. This strengthened my belief that these people were clearly the capable equals of our best intellectuals today, even without electronic technology. Not to mention the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans, but let's stick to the activities of the New World Jesuits, particularly in today's Arizona.

I can't believe for a minute that the Jesuits, arguably the elite of the elite, would accumulate these alleged precious metals caches, then be taken off-guard by the Expulsion and ultimately "lose" the secrets of where the alleged loot was hidden. This is absurd. For me, the more logical explanations of the tales include at least three options: 1) the caches, if they existed, have already been recovered by the Jesuits ; 2) the caches, if they existed, are still hidden and under the Jesuits' control; 3) there were no such major caches in Arizona. IMO, your time is better spent with these ideas than the "dog ate my homework" one.

You raise some good points.

There is yet another explanation, namely that the Jesuits, while they knew of the coming explusion, vastly underestimated the speed and ferocity with which it befell them. The Spanish expulsion was far more draconian than the French one, should you care to compare them.

Also they were not expecting to be disbanded, and for so long, so my educated guess is that while those in the know did attempt to leave behind clues and directions, that those are now scattered, some lost forever, some in private collection, and some buried in the millions of documents archived at the ARSI in Rome.

I believe that while the SJ still has an interest in recovering those lost treasure, that it is not a priority by any means because of two major reasons:

1) They aren't lacking in funds today like they used to be, after their restoration in 1814.
2) Recovering any lost treasure risks uncovering and bringing to light, the darkest chapters of their history, ranging from exploitation of indigenous people to regicide, and especially their real purposes for coming to the Americas.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Deducer, you are correct on the Jesuits apparant thinking today of their treasures. The main reason for the draconian treatment was because they were formenting an Insurection , and were planning a takeover of Noorth America from Spain. It had to be nipped in the bud with all conspiritors accounted for. Most were completely innocent of the charges, but the Crown had no way to differeniate, so it was 'grab em all to be sure'.

You quoted --There is yet another explanation, namely that the Jesuits, while they knew of the coming explusion, vastly underestimated the speed and ferocity with which it befell them. The Spanish expulsion was far more draconian than the French one, should you care to compare them.

 

[audigger53]

Sanoyita across the border from Lukeville, AZ had a Jesuit Mission. The locals there know that the Jesuits had the Indians there mining gold for them.This is what was told to the man my brother and I sent there to see if the gold in the cellar of the Upper Chapel could be recovered.
"When the casket of the founding father of the mission popped out of the ground from the lintel when they were straightening a wash to save a bridge, there were 2 gold bells, like those used for mules. The Upper Chapel was Excavated in 1910 by an Archaeologist "from the UofA. He never touched the mission." That was from the locals that live there.
Now does that sound like the Jesuits didn't go mining?

 

[itzyoboyandrew]

I enjoy the reading.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi AU, that district is famous for Gold mining of various types. Many missions were constructed with a religeous intent and as a way stations.

 

[audigger53]

It has been my knowledge that the 2 priest missions were way stations for the mule trains to the Jesuit Mission just outside of Mexico City and larger missions (more than 2 priests) usally had a mine or mines.
BTW El Paso was a major jumping off point for the Conquestadors due to the Sulphur mines and the Galena from the mountain above Fort Bliss. Galena for the lead and Sulphur for making gunpowder. The mines are at the bottom of the mountain and the Galena extrudes from the mountain side, no mining need for it. And of course the river for water for crops.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AU my frend, on't forget that the Rio del Norte was a major travelway at that time, also a major route for the Tayopa presious metals on their way to Rome, after being stored in the Caballo mts., via a wating Jesuit ship near Matamoros to take them to Rome.

 

[deducer]

Deducer, you are correct on the Jesuits apparant thinking today of their treasures. The main reason for the draconian treatment was because they were formenting an Insurection , and were planning a takeover of Noorth America from Spain. It had to be nipped in the bud with all conspiritors accounted for. Most were completely innocent of the charges, but the Crown had no way to differeniate, so it was 'grab em all to be sure'.

Joseph,

You and I live thousands of miles apart and are working on completely separate projects, but I am slowly reaching the same conclusions that you have, through research, fieldwork, and reading in general.

They were sincerely putting a very serious amount of effort into this. I've been fortunate to see firsthand evidence of this.

 

[sdcfia]

Joseph,

You and I live thousands of miles apart and are working on completely separate projects, but I am slowly reaching the same conclusions that you have, through research, fieldwork, and reading in general.

They were sincerely putting a very serious amount of effort into this. I've been fortunate to see firsthand evidence of this.

Oh, these militant Catholic Orders (Templars, Jesuits, Hospitallers, et al). All with an original allegiance to the Pope, all very wealthy and wealth-motivated, all with members associated with royal families, all dissolved by controversy during stages of their histories, all linked to treasure conspiracies in the New World. None of the conspiracies adequately explained or exposed. Were they involved with shorter-term plans that went wrong, or longer-range plans yet to unfold?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC, in the case of the Jesuits, the take over of North America would be considered long term , no ??

 

[Backwoodsbob]

And probably monitoring the treasure sites to get an idea if any of their stashes are found.

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[deducer]

Oh, these militant Catholic Orders (Templars, Jesuits, Hospitallers, et al). All with an original allegiance to the Pope, all very wealthy and wealth-motivated, all with members associated with royal families, all dissolved by controversy during stages of their histories, all linked to treasure conspiracies in the New World. None of the conspiracies adequately explained or exposed. Were they involved with shorter-term plans that went wrong, or longer-range plans yet to unfold?

As far as being "very wealthy," here's an interesting tidbit I came across, reading The Taking of the Bastilles by Jacques Godechot, as translated by Jean Stewart.

Apparently the infux into Europe of gold/silver from the Americas was so large, it was one of, if not the main driver of, social inequality in Europe and contributed to riots/revolutions against royalty, including the French revolution.

Interesting how the church escaped being caught up in the turmoil/chaos caused by the widening of the inequality gap, eh?

 

[sdcfia]

As far as being "very wealthy," here's an interesting tidbit I came across, reading The Taking of the Bastilles by Jacques Godechot, as translated by Jean Stewart.

Apparently the infux into Europe of gold/silver from the Americas was so large, it was one of, if not the main driver of, social inequality in Europe and contributed to riots/revolutions against royalty, including the French revolution.

Interesting how the church escaped being caught up in the turmoil/chaos caused by the widening of the inequality gap, eh?

Perhaps the 99% feared jeopardizing their souls more so than their necks.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC, They ruled threir flocks with an iron hand.They are beginning to loosen up today. You ought to see what my future wife had to go through before she was allowed to marry me, this after a over two year courtship complete with
Seranades, duenas, programmed visits etc. You ended up well married, no trial marraiges. .

 

[audigger53]

Part of the problem that the Jesuits had was that they didn't give the New World wealth to the Pope. The Popes were all political appointments from the 1500's into the 1800's. So the King of Spain and Portugal were upset about not getting their fair share of the wealth. As for the French, not until Spain gave up Mexico to them were they in the New World except for Canada and Louisiana. Don't know of any Jesuit missions in those areas. Or Florida but some have posted about one there.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I found this map of mission in fla

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[Backwoodsbob]

Andrew how does this map go with the stone.

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[Backwoodsbob]

There has been a many debate about the Jesuit interest in the treasure thing. If a person figured a way to show they were at most of the places they were rumored to be at. They left so much evidence of their existence wherever they went. The problem is not to many can see it.. I'm not talking about the big monuments. Anyone can see them. It's the hidden clues I'm talking about.the ones only they knew about. Do you think they would try and stop someone from exposing them? Discredit their proof.

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bob they would simply snicker and deney it. They aren't too interested in any of their past episodes, including Tayopa, since they are making so much money today from their legitiment enterprises that it simply isn't worth it to them or their reputation.

Witness, a former partner of mine was almost a ordained Jesuit , he said that he found that he liked girls too much, had an interview with the then no. 2 of the Jeuit hieachy in Rome, when he asked him if they had meddled in politics etc, The no. 2, merely smiled gently, and said "yes, but we don't do those things anymore".